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HHH and backstage politics

Hey Scott -
 
I wanted to ask you if you could provide some specific examples of when HHH utilized his backstage power either to his own benefit or to the detriment of someone else (or both).  I've heard it said several times that HHH "used his stroke backstage to change event ABC or bury opponent XYZ", but I've never really heard anything specific on what he actually did.
 
I'm assuming a lot of this happened in 2002-2005, when he ran roughshod over the entire roster - but again, I'm basing that on hearsay and second-hand knowledge.  Can you shed some light on the subject?
  
Sure!

2002:  Had the RAW World title created for himself because he felt he was above the I-C title.  Changed the finish of his match with RVD at Unforgiven so he went over cleanly.  Changed the finish of the match with Kane to unify the IC and World titles so that he went over.  Killed Bubba Dudley's singles push because he didn't want to work with him.  

2003:  Changed the finish of the match with Booker T so that he went over because he wanted to save the big win for Goldberg. Killed Booker T's push and had Kevin Nash pushed into the World title program for three months instead. Changed the date of the match with Goldberg from mid-summer to Summerslam so it would be built up more.  Changed the finish of Summerslam from Goldberg going over to Goldberg losing so that it could be built up even more.  

2004:  Squashed Eugene like a bug once it was turning into a hot act.  I mean, would anyone else in wrestling get threatened by the RETARDED BABYFACE and then book himself to beat him to within an inch of his life?  That's our HHH.  Booked himself to end Randy Orton's first World title run after only a month so that Taboo Tuesday would have a heel champion defending against three potential babyface challengers.  

Anyway, there's the first 10 or so examples off the top of my head.  

Comments

  1. Wrestling's Made Men: The detailed timeline of HHH burying everyone

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  2. Eugene: Good riddance then, good riddance now. Some things just shouldn't get over.

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  3. I agree Eugene wasn't great but the ego issue with Hunter is disturbing.

    It would be the same as if Cena (even though he doesn't get to book himself) just up and decided to squash Funk because Funk was getting pops half as big.

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  4. For me the most egregious use of Hunter's power was never allowing a blowoff to the Hunter/Kurt/Steph triangle.

    I didn't even give a shit about the Invasion at the time, I just wanted THAT storyline to play out. 

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  5. The Booker T one still makes me sad. 8..(

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  6.  crowd reactions to Goldberg in WWF say otherwise.  he was hugely over and could have made some big money for the company for a couple years if he was booked properly.  Instead they made him just another guy, which made zero money and he left the business after a year.

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  7. Christopher HirschMay 7, 2012 at 12:16 PM

    I'd thank him for derailing Bubba Ray's singles push. Bully Ray is fantastic now, but in 2002 as a singles wrestler? Not so much.

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  8. This does not sound familiar at all.

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  9. The crowd at the Summerslam elimination chamber certainly cared about Goldberg. They were nuclear for him. If they'd pulled the trigger then it could have been enough to actually build something positive out of Goldbergs run

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  10. Edge in 2006 always bugged me. In hindsight, it didn't matter too much because Edge still became a top-level star but put yourself back into late 2005/early 2006. Ratings were sagging and WWE's new big star was getting booed by at least half the audience (bear in mind this was a relatively new development with Cena). Edge cashes in to win the title having become the most entertaining character in years and ratings spike for his reign. The majority of fans hate him so much that they cheer Cena. Wrestlemania is 3 months away - the story seemed to write itself.

    But no, we had to get the planned HHH-Cena match even though WWE had shown the year before that they were willing to deviate from long-term plans (switching from HHH-Orton to HHH-Batista). Of course, as both of those involved HHH I guess the change didn't matter too much.

    Also, I'm not sure what the consensus now is on Punk last year. Again, things have worked out well for Punk (unless you want to see him booked above Cena) but the fact is Punk was coming off a white-hot feud and subsequently lost to HHH, who then segued into a feud with Diesel (who Punk never got to beat up after Diesel cost him the title).

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  11. I don't know if it was the original plan or if HHH just immediately shot it down, but Jericho was supposed to reveal having an affair with Stephanie while HHH was hurt in the build up to their WMX8 match. It was felt HHH was too smart to not know his wife was cheating. So it turned into Stephanie vs HHH with Jericho holding the title for her and cleaning dog shit.

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  12. I don't think anyone was suggesting that Bubba should've gotten the belt or anything, but for a mini-feud on Raw, Bubba would've been just fine.  Hell, I would've much rather seen Bubba/HHH at Royal Rumble than HHH vs. Steiner.  And who knows, maybe we could've seen Bubba step up if given the opportunity 10 years ago rather than just showing his stuff now in TNA.

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  13. Christopher HirschMay 7, 2012 at 12:21 PM

    Was never a plan but Triple H did shoot it down. In his second book, Jericho talked about it as an idea he had.

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  14. You can also insert every time Jericho faced him from his debut up to probably today if they faced off again.

    I think it was Fully Loaded 2000-2001 that made me realize how bad HHH was. It was the Last man standing match with HHH and Jericho, and of course, HHH goes over.

    Conincidentaly, that ppv also had the Rock going over Benoit and Undertaker going over Angle.

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  15. This was made even worse because they added racial overtones to the angle.  They booked it in such a way that the only possible outcome that made any sense or had any payoff was for Booker to win the title.  But no, HHH just had to go over.

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  16. Christopher HirschMay 7, 2012 at 12:22 PM

    You would have been in the minority. Steiner was a hot act when he first came in. There was genuine anticipation for him vs. Triple H, we hadn't seen just how broken down Steiner was yet.

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  17. In Angle's first book he said Hunter used the same rationale to end the HHH-Angle-Stephanie storyline in 2000.

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  18. HHH also helped contribute to the downfall of the tag titles when he buried London and Kendrick for no reason (and when I say no reason, I mean LITERALLY no reason).  There was a segment where HHH was getting beat down and London and Kendrick made the save, then HHH thanked them by Pedigreeing both of them, even though they were all faces.  Not to mention they held the tag titles for like a year back when it was competitive.  But nope, they were just jobbers who are beneath HHH.

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  19. Yeah, that made no sense and caused me to stop watching RAW until the WM buildup.  Kind of like him squashing RVD, Kane, and Booker T nine years ago.

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  20. He's the world's most insecure man.

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  21. From Jericho's book it sounded like HHH had a problem with him from the start. Yeah, there's the talk that he didn't know WWE style yet and came off as arrogant, but at this point HHH was getting his main event single's push and it wasn't getting over. They were putting him over everyone, giving him new music and reuniting DX and having him feud with Vince and steal Stephanie and it just wasn't getting over (until the Foley feud, which cemented him as a top guy)...meanwhile, Jericho strolls onto Raw once night and is more over after one segment that HHH was all summer.

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  22. Not only that, but the "Triple H is in the title match" thing was worse at WM24 - Orton injures Cena (in the storyline) and wins the WWE championship. Cena makes a miracle recovery in time to win the Royal Rumble and earn a shot at the title he didn't lose against the guy who injured him. Seems logical. Writes itself. But somehow this turns into Triple H getting put into the match and being the one to end Orton's reign a month after WM.

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  23. I think Bubba gave HHH was rather sloppy powerbomb through a table and that was the reason/excuse used to end his push. He'd been getting a decent little singles push on Raw and they were setting him up as a guy HHH was afraid of (I think there was a segment where HHH was walking around feeling good about himself until be bumps into Bubba and backs down), then one week they just put HHH over him and that was that.

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  24. I remember watching that stone-faced, in disbelief what I saw. Looking back, it shouldn't have been surprising.

    The RVD and Booker T shit he pulled was awful for business and just the happenings of an extremely insecure man.

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  25. Oh my God, THIS. Have we ever gotten any dirt on it? That was actually WWE doing their soap opera-shit well. The logical conclusion being Steph turning on HHH, thereby making Angle the #1 heel (instead of the after-thought his first title reign became), and HHH into a mega-babyface (who could've feuded with a heel-turned Austin for months after WM17). Instead, HHH was behind the Austin hit and run, and we pretend none of it ever happened.

    For me, this was the beginning of the end of that boom period; not paying off this obviously money angle properly due to HHH's politicking. I tend to think it's not that HHH was afraid he couldn't stay over as a face. He was getting huge face pops, and would've been even more over if Steph had screwed him during a title match, and Angle beat the shit out of him after. I suspect it was something as paranoid as him being afraid that if Steph and Angle became an item on-camera he might lose his meal ticket in the real world, coupled with professional jealousy over Angle potentially doing a better job at being the top heel.

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  26. My FAVORITE Triple H story comes from 2003 after Rocky left. This is my memory of Meltzer so if it's wrong, blame my memory.

    The Rock was supposed to put over Booker T on a Raw leading up to WrestleMania 19 since Booker was going to win the title. They even announced the match a week before Raw. Something happens backstage (either the plan is changed to Booker T losing at WM or the Rock just thinks that) so Rocky doesn't want to put over Booker just for Triple H to put him over.

    Instead, Rocky jobs to the Hurricane. Fast forward to the 1st Raw after WrestleMania 19 and the first match on the show is....Triple H squashing the Hurricane.

    I always thought that entire story summed up all that was wrong with Triple H, in terms of putting his self-interest above anyone else's. And I believe the heat between Triple H & Rocky stemmed from the fact Rocky was at a point where he was able to call out the BS.

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  27. "But no, we had to get the planned HHH-Cena match"

    And don't forget that if it wasn't for HHH's injury in early 2007, we would have gotten a Cena-HHH rematch instead of HBK-Cena (which turned out to be quite awesome). 

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  28. The Booker T thing still makes me mad to this day. Some of the decisions are defensible, but the Booker T one was so egregious and just awful. I've said this a million times: it's not even so much that Hunter went over, it's how he went over. If it had been all sorts of cheating shenanigans and Hunter had screwed Booker out of the title that's one thing. But Hunter kicks out of Booker's finisher and then pedigrees Booker and takes forever to pin the guy.

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  29. Ya know, we can look back now and shit on HHH for the 2000 stuff, but he was so on fire from his Foley feud to his injury that I know I personally gave him a pass.

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  30. His ego alone caused the burial of many fine wrestlersMillions of dollars have gone up in smoke at the stroke of his mighty politicking.He once did a job... just to prove to the internet that he could.He's the Most Insecure Man in the World!

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  31. I remember that. It pretty much gave the ending of HHH/Booker away because the report was that Rock wouldn't put Booker because HHH was winning at WM. Hurricane was getting over during this point, mostly due to the backstage segments with The Rock and beating him on Raw. I think HHH squashing him may have been the last time he got a serious push - I think it was mostly S.H.I.T after that.

    HHH was supposedly out to get Rock since his debut, and Rock even gave Jericho a pep talk about the same people trying to hold him down when he came in and having to rise above it. Once he became a superstar and was on his way to becoming a Hollywood star he really didn't need to play nice with HHH anymore.

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  32. For me the worst thing about that period wasn't just that Jericho, RVD, Kane, Booker and Goldberg all came out of feuds with him with stalled momentum and massively reduced heat; it was the cronyism that went with it.

    HHH held the title for a whole year excepting HBK's token 28 day reign in 2002. The only people he attempted to make in that time was Shawn Michaels (who didn't need the title hence why he never held it again) and Kevin Nash (who was broken down and nobody wanted to see).

    He was only willing to show his buddys as threats, everyone else had the legs cut out from under them.

    Benoit was afforded the title but not the spotlight as HHH & HBK were booked as the headline attraction on Raw long after that feud had past it's sell by date. Orton was made to look weak and not on HHH's level.

    It really wasn't until he put Batista over 3 straight times that anyone else was allowed to be the main man on Raw.

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  33. This may be a naive question, but what can fans do to stop this kind of bullshit? Anything Does fan influence even affect HHH and the rest of the higher-ups, or are they free to sabotage storylines and careers at a whim, knowing that they're untouchable and people will keep watching no matter what?

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  34. Of all the things that HHH has done, burying Booker T is the one I will never forget.

    Booker T was so ever and was about to reach that top level and HHH squashed him like a bug.

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  35. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF3x0H2-Cqo

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  36. Yeah, I remember being excited for that Booker T-Rock match.

    The HHH-Rock heat goes way before Rock's position of standing up to HHH. They've been at odds since about late 1996/1997 when HHH and Shawn were on the booking committee and doing their best to hold Rocky down during the first couple of years of his WWE career. There was an incident where Rock was supposed to drop the IC belt to Bret Hart, who refused to beat Rocky for it, which angered HHH immensely. In fact, Bret often tried his best to help Rock since his father was one of his favourite wrestlers (all this is in Bret's book).

    A lot of people are excited for when Vince retired and HHH takes over. I can't see how things will improve if HHH continues his myopic view of the wrestling business. We've even seen it manifest itself in the past few months with the red-hot Punk angle getting segued into a snoozer of an angle with HHH and Kevin Nash.

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  37. They were nuclear for him.

    A million times this.  Same with the crowd reactions for Mickie James at WM 26... you can't appreciate how rabid the crowd was unless you actually witnessed it while it was happening.

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  38. This has gotten me all fired up.  For someone who goes on and on about how much love and respect he has for "this business," he has a history of doing what's best for himself and not "the business."  He pretends to have an old school mentality to wrestling, but you know what the true old-schoolers did?  Put the new guys over on their way out the door.

    I will acknowledge Cena and Batista (although they were clearly made men at that point anyway), but since he has gone into semi-retirement, who has he put over?  He has fought Undertaker twice, Kevin Nash, and pinned CM Punk.  His supposed idol Flair was willing to job to anyone and everyone at the end of his WWE run.  Hell, Flair would put me over right now if I gave him my credit card number.  What rising stars has he lost a feud to to in the last few years?

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  39. Steiner was a hot act but the buildup was shit. 

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  40. I completely agree with the six-man comment. Kendrick and London were getting over and could have been helped by a rub from HHH.

    Sure, London was kind of a flake and Kendrick was a pothead, but at that time, they were two young and talented up-and-comers. No wonder their enthusiasm for the business dimmed so quickly.

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  41. Not just that, but the whole racist thing. Would it REALLY have hurt Triple H to lose the title and get it back the next month?

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  42. That match baffles me. HHH is not in the match the entire time because he's got a really bad groin injury but comes in for two minutes and pins Goldberg, deflating the entire crowd.

    He was INJURED! He could have dropped the title, which would have made Goldberg in the WWE fans' eyes and healed up while Bill has his run. Then he can come back and have a red-hot program over the title.

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  43. One of my favourites is when some gamer magazine was doing a review on one of the WWE's newest video games and were forbidden to show any screenshots in the article where HHH was in a vulnerable position.

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  44. That must be in his second book right? I been meaning to pick it up, really enjoyed his first.

    How much is it about his WWE run compared to stuff about Fozzy etc?

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  45. I'm surprised he hasn't brought in X-Pac to have a main-event program with.

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  46. "but what can fans do to stop this kind of bullshit?"

    Absolutely nothing.  Unless people literally decide to stop giving Vinny Mac any money or watch any of his shows.

    If anything, over the last few years, the product has sheered even MORE away from what the fans (at least those audibly in attendance) want.

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  47. I always felt HHH and perhaps Vince took away the wrong lessons from Hunter's success in 1999 and 2000. It seems like they think he became an over main-eventer through sheer talent, workrate and perseverance. Yet that was only half the story. The other half, as you say, is that he was booked so strongly. He beat Rock and Foley (a lot), Austin, Kane and Big Show. He often outsmarted the babyfaces, he beat Vince, married Stephanie and jointly ran the company. Then he won the main event at Wrestlemania.

    All of this was very entertaining of course and I've never understood why they didn't use the same approach with the likes of Angle or Jericho. Orton (with Legacy) and Punk (after retiring Hardy) in particular were primed for this treatment. The only other time they did it was with Brock in 2002 but that got cut short by his injury and babyface turn.

    It just seems they're so quick to blame wrestlers for not having the work ethic or drive to "get themselves over" like HHH did, yet they've forgotten how much help Hunter actually needed.

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  48. Well, the stock is in free-fall so that MAY help. Although it probably won't.

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  49. I'm getting angry thinking of the various ways HHH has gone into business for himself as well. Remember that Royal Rumble when Punk was having that awesome messiah spot where he'd throw guys out and get on the mic? And who was the one who ended it? Was it someone who Punk was feuding with on Smackdown? Nope, it was HHH.

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  50. "A lot of people are excited for when Vince retired and HHH takes over."

    Yeah, that's irony at it's best isn't it?  I suppose the difference will be that he will be "putting over" the company's bottom line, rather than himself.  Although of course guys he's buddies with like Sheamus and others will be in great shape.

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  51.  "Sure, London was kind of a flake and Kendrick was a pothead"

    There's the explanation for that squash.

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  52. I think part of the reason why it was entertaining was also that HHH was bringing the goods in the ring. But when he came back in 2002 from his quad injury, he was no WAY as good as performers like Angle, Benoit, etc. So he used backstage politics to keep himself on top.

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  53.  Hmm, there's a lot of Fozzy, maybe 60/40. It covers his first WWE run, from his debut until he left in 2005. I read the Fozzy parts but didn't memorize them, I mostly stick to the wrestling stuff during re-reads. It's a good read, some interesting stories, thoughts on Benoit and what led to him returning in 2007.

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  54. That's Miz's fault.

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  55.  WWE is like a never ending fantasy camp for Triple H. He grows up wanting to be a wrestler and idolizing Ric Flair. He eventually ends up dressing/acting like Ric Flair, while holding Ric Flair's title, and having Ric Flair himself follow him around like a personal assistant telling him how great he is.

     

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  56. I do have to wonder though, how much of these decisions are HHH's? The writers have always made their fair share of awful decisions too, and I'd also not be shocked if Vince was looking out for his son in law when it comes to booking decisions. 

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  57. how was Batista a "made man" before Triple H put him over? but you are right about Triple H post-retirement.

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  58. Not necessarily. The wrestling biz is full of flakes and pot-smoking wasn't banned at the time of the squash. Chalk this one up to HHH's asshole ways.

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  59. "Stay buried, my friend." - HHH

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  60. Orton was both combined in his early years, and he still got pushed to the moon.

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  61. Arm Wrestling!  Posedowns!  The Bench Press Challenge!

    What's not to like about that buildup!?!?!  Oh, right this isn't wrestlecrap...

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  62. It's likely since Triple H got into a real relationship with Steph as a result of their on screen relationship, he feared Angle would do the same thing.

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  63. Stick the winner, Sean.

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  64. HHH will still be in decent enough shape to wrestle, so he will be the 2K version of Verne Gagne.

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  65. Maybe a bad choice of words, but it was clear that Batista was going to be a top guy no matter what at that point.  If you can find a clip of his entrance at Royal Rumble 2005, he gets one of the loudest pops I've ever heard.  There was no stopping it by then.

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  66. A former WWE writer said something about having to get TV scripts approved by Vince, Steph, and HHH.  He said that HHH would just flip through it then ask if he's going over.  If he wasn't, he'd demand that it be changed so he goes over.

    Quite a few were HHH

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  67. We can get CM Punk making jokes that only the Internet gets.

    "So how many nights did you spend in Chyna before you showed up here? 1, 2, 3? Kid?"

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  68. I mention this all the time.

    When Benoit came over from WCW he was WCW World Champion. Who beat him first? HHH.
    When Taz(z) was loaned out to ECW he won the ECW World Championship. Who beat him upon his return? HHH.
    When all the secondary belts were unified who beat them all to become and assimilated all of the titles? HHH.

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  69. It's definitely worth it. I have no interest in Fozzy whatsoever, but still enjoyed the hell out of the book. There is a ton of great wrestling stories that justify the cost of the book and most of the Fozzy stuff is still entertaining in its own right. 

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  70. Dirty_Dave_DelaneyMay 7, 2012 at 1:54 PM

    It will be interesting to see what happens when Triple H recovers from his kayfabe broken arm and returns to face Lesnar. Previous arguments aside about Lesnar putting over Cena, I can at least see how putting Lesnar over the company's biggest star helps but if they put Triple H, a now part time wrestler, over Lesnar then that will really show what an egotistical ass Triple H is. Also thinking about it if any other wrestler was out selling a kayfabe injury, only to make an appearance on another widely watched event not selling that injury they would certainly be punished forr doing so yet Triple H gets a free pass. 

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  71. I felt so deflated after HHH pinned Booker T. I was a huge fan of Booker back in the TV title days and his feud with Benoit. I felt like I had watched the guy since day one and he was finally getting over in WWE big time. When HHH pedigreed him and was laying on the mat afterwards, I remember reasoning with my friends, "Booker's going to kick out since HHH is stalling." When he went for the pin and won it, we were all so bummed. It was such a shame. Booker was getting mega over and sort of just spiraled into mediocrity afterwards.

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  72. God, this still makes me mad. I was hugely critical of Goldberg's WWE run and even I was marking out during the Elimination Chamber. They booked Goldberg like a machine during this match and then HHH steps in for 30 seconds and squashes him. Shame on HHH for that one. Shame on WWE for that one.

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  73. All of these revelations are what really annoys me about the Triple-H Apologists (who are very numerous on the 'net)- they ignore tons and TONS of evidence and just go "buh! He's entertaining and his losses mean more when there's less of them!" as if there's some kind of excuse for making him look like the only smart guy in all of wrestling, and making dozens of really over guys look like chumps.

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  74. I hafta say Triple H is the epitome of old school.  No one protects their spot or their "legacy" better.  He has done a damn good job of aping Ric Flair in every aspect except finance.  He also has a lot of Hogan in him as well.

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  75. It's just a theory of mine, but I think we only got the brand extension so that HHH could have his own show (RAW) where he could be champion forever and EVERY SINGLE COMPETITION for him was away on SD (Undertaker, Kurt Angle and Brock Lesnar).

     I mean, you've made the biggest next thing with Lesnar and then you put him on the b-show? That's so Triple H style... 

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  76. If it's a questionable decision involving HHH (i.e. any time he went over an 'internet favourite) from the year 2000 onward it was HHH's decision. If it was a good decision (i.e. HHH loses to anyone), then it was HHH getting overruled by the other higher ups.

    Just like how a great storyline = the wrestlers booking/writing it themselves and shutting the Creative team out.

    I think people sometimes forget how big of a HHH mark Vince is. And this goes back to the days before HHH and Steph were together. And if you were Vince, why wouldn't you love the guy? He works harder than anyone, has a great look/physique, cuts great promos, is loyal to the company, clearly has a genuine passion for pro wrestling. Putting myself in Vince's shoes, I can see him being persuaded to change plans on RVD/HHH given the 2 guys involved.

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  77. "If anything, over the last few years, the product has sheered even MORE away from what the fans (or at least those audibly in attendance) want."

    Come on, just a few months ago the company's champions were CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder, Kofi Kingston, Evan Bourne, and Beth Phoenix.

    Punk's rise was the definition of giving the fans what they wanted. They latched onto the guy as a new "People's Champion" and the WWE responded by putting him over Cena (again... who the fuck beats John Cena 2 times in a row?), and he's been WWE champ since Survivor Series, coming up on 6 months now.

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  78. Southern_DiscomfortMay 7, 2012 at 2:43 PM

    I wouldn't say I'm "excited" about Trips taking over, but he's better than Vince. That's really the only thing worth being happy about. I don't like the guy either, but he can't be much worse than Vinny Mac. Silver linings, or something.

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  79. I think HHH (and a lot of the other "old-school" guys) dislike wrestlers who don't appear to take things seriously. Watching London and Kendrick's shoot I got the impression they'd be the kind of guys who would rub people like HHH, Taker, and Vince the wrong way. I don't think it was about pot, I think it was more of their attitude/demeanor in the back. I mean, London with a goofy smile on his face during the Vince limo explosion kinda sums those guys up for me (I think London was worse for that kind of stuff but Kendrick got lumped in with him).

    That's why you didn't see HHH bury Jeff Hardy the way he did those guys, even though Hardy is a bigger druggie and a bigger flake.

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  80. I have to say his burial of the tag division in 2006 was probably the worst damage he did of all.

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  81. Booker T was the ONLY reason I kept up with WCW up until they sold out to Vince.  I waited seemingly forever for the WWF to capitalize on his natural charisma and make him a face.  He was a bad guy feuding with The Rock, he was a bad guy feuding with Edge, and then he inexplicably was made nWo.  It wasn't until after that when Booker FINALLY turned face.  Even in his nWo run people were dying to cheer for him.  "I'm just a Booker.. Booker T!  I'm not yo sucka... SUCKA!"  That still kills me.

    Then he turns face, has a good run with Goldust, and starts getting pretty monster reactions leading up to the WM 19 crap.

    I saw a house show leading up to WM 19 where Book and HHH did basically the same match.  Book cut a promo after the show, saying that what happened that night didn't matter, because he would whup HH's ass at WM.  He was just over HUGE.

    At that time, there was no reason for Booker to not go over.  HHH could lose 100 times in a row - he's a made guy.  Booker was made to look like a chump, and just couldn't recover from it.

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  82. Fuck, I'm probably coming off as the biggest HHH mark of all time with my comments in this thread, but I think you're forgetting what is was like watching this stuff in real time. On paper your idea sounds logical and the right direction. But Cena/Orton just didn't click, it never felt as epic as it should have been (especially early on, but I would argue they never got there even in their later feuds). Cena/HHH on the other hand is the closest they've gotten to epic in the last decade (pre-Rock/Cena of course).

    I remember a lot of people saying fuck it, just blow off Cena/Orton at No Way Out and do the REAL money match, HHH/Cena 2, at WM.

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  83. Oh cry me a river. Scott, you included. Are you seriously griping about him not putting over EUGENE? Really? 

    Triple H gets so much shit on the internet, it's un-fucking-believable that people are still crying that he won matches when he was the #1 heel in the WWE in his prime TEN YEARS ago. His "reign of terror" didn't even last that long + included him getting owned by Michaels Goldberg and Benoit. 

    Nevermind that almost every other attitude-era star ditched their wrestling career for greener pastures (Rock, Brock), retired early/rich (Foley), or walked out on the company (Austin). Let's all bash HHH because he didn't lose every match and put over an old Booker T as the world champion in 2003. Clearly that would have been the right move, since it worked so well for WCW with Booker, and HHH wasn't a proven draw for the company. Right? Should he have put over Steiner, too? 

    HHH has put over multiple guys completely clean (Benoit, Batista, Cena), and legitimized both Jeff Hardy and Randy Orton. He has a less-than-stellar 7-9 career record at Wrestlemania. 

    Compare that to a guy like Cena, who has been on top for eight fucking years and made .... well, who has he made a star? The Miz? Nope. Lord Tensai, I guess? 

    Does anyone here honestly believe that anyone in the main event scene does not pull shit to keep their spot? Austin, Flair, Cena, Hogan. All of them. Sting is probably the closest thing to the moralistic non-political guy that the IWC seems to want, but I'm sure even he knows how to play the game backstage (no pun intended). 

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  84. To add to that, when they showed the recap of John Cena winning the Rumble, he eliminated Triple H to do so. It's shown in the video package and everything on Raw. On Smackdown, it shows Cena throwing out Carlito or some other goober to win the match, and that video package is shown from then on. 

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  85. Hey hey let's be fair: they're both potheads.

    I wasn't watching Smackdown at that time so I actually didn't know about it. What's funny is that when Kendrick first debuted in 02 or 03, whenever, HBK was pushing for him to get a push and supposedly had talked HHH into putting Kendrick over. Funny, we never saw that happen.

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  86. No one's mentioning all the backstage politics he was involved in during his Clique days. Most of that gets blamed on Michaels, but if you believe Bret Hart's book, HHH was influencing booking decisions and making people he wasn't friends with look bad back in those days, when he hadn't even earned anything in the business yet. Supposedly, according to Shawn's book, HHH was more adamant about going through with Montreal than even Shawn was.The guy's been playing politics since he was still coming out with the bimbo of the week.

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  87. As a HHH apologist I'd like to clarify my position.

    HHH is not my favourite wrestler, he's probably not even in my top 20. I do like him as a performer, admire his work ethic and will always be amazed he went through with the Walls of Jericho spot after tearing his quad.

    I just dislike how, in my opinion, people aren't consistent in their criticisms of him. They blame him exclusively (reading this thread shows you that) for decisions they don't like but deflect praise elsewhere when it comes to universally celebrated moves (putting over Shelton, Benoit, Batista, Cena, Orton, hell ANYONE). When things go wrong they retroactively paint it to appear to have been a HHH master plan all along, designed to keep him above anyone else. They overinflate the potential of the guys he 'buried'. I mean, come on KANE?!? People ripping him for his treatment of Kane are some of the same people bitching 18 months later about Kane getting his 'annual world title shot' (program with Benoit). Maybe Vince feared RVD wasn't dependable enough to build a brand around, and can you blame him after seeing what happened when they *did* put the world title on him?

    Do I think he's infallible? No, there are things about him I didn't (and don't) like. Is he protective of his spot? Yes he is. So was Flair, Hogan, Bret, Shawn, Austin etc.. So is John Cena.

    If you want to blame someone for the stuff you hate, whether it's going over Booker or burying London/Kendrick, blame Vince. I'm not going to blame someone for protecting their own interests, which 90% of us on here would do as well. It's the same reason I don't get on my high horse and wag my finger at athletes/rock stars who cheat. If I was in the same boat, I'd probably do the same. Instead, I just celebrate the guys who buck the trend (like Rock... I'm talking about the not being protective of their spot... which is the #1 reason I was on Team Bring It).

    I hope this clears things up for you jabroniville. I'd also like to take this time to officially turn the other cheek from your profane send-off, thereby proving unequivocally that HHH apologists have more character than HHH haters.

    Triple H haters: I Love You.

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  88. According to the Heartbreak and Triumph video the Montreal thing was all Triple H's idea. So yeah, it didn't start when he started banging Steph.

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  89. Totally. And they could have done it in a way to protect HHH's ego. Say Booker gets a sneaky roll-up with the tights like when Savage pinned Flair at WM8. That way you get a) a massive pop and WM moment, b) a legit main-eventer in Booker and c) a reason for a hot rematch with a stip at the next PPV where, if so inclined, HHH gets his title back for whatever bullshit he was up to next.

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  90. I'm getting really REALLY sick of you Zack Ryder marks.

    LET IT GO!

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  91. Didn't HHH have an interview a few months back where he talked about how no one put him over on his way to superstardom?

    I wonder if Mick Foley heard about, considering how he basically killed himself to get HHH's title reign over.

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  92.  But he didn't beat HHH.

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  93. Those are sound points.

    Interesting that you bring up Sting.....I actually read an column at LordsOfPain a while back where the person mentioned that Sting never gets crapped on for having done a small amount of jobs.....

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  94. I've heard this before, but I've never actually found any article or been told which writer said this. Can you cite a source?

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  95.  Yeah because HHH is straight a edge and has never done a drug in his life. 

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  96. Cena played a big role in Punk's elevation last summer, IMO. The mic work was great, of course, but going over the top guy in the company pretty cleanly two PPVs in a row didn't hurt.

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  97. I liked when you said "Mick Retired Early" then one sentence later called Booker T "old".

    That was a pretty epic joke of an opinion.

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  98. If it was the reverse, he beat HHH but didn't win the title would you be satisfied?

    Punk marks (of which I am one) CANNOT bitch about his treatment since the infamous promo on Raw. They gave him the belt. They gave him a bus. They made him *smart* babyface. They made him a star.

    I didn't have an issue with the match they had, or the result. My gripe was the buildup, where I thought HHH made too many good points and made Punk look like a whiner, a cardinal sin in wrestling. He should've shut his mouth more and let Punk have the last word (ala Vince and Cena). But again, given the end result I'm not going to dwell on it (see above paragraph).

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  99. Who was talking about Zack Ryder? lmao

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  100. Didn't Ric Flair to do all of that shit repeatedly throughout the eighties and nineties?

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  101. That was several years ago, but yes, everyone guffawed and expressed a general sense of incredulity.

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  102. The original emailer asked for instances where HHH has had booking changed, and those are the instances. SK isn't griping over what HHH does, just stating the examples. 

    Now, HHH absolutely should have put Booker over. You don't start a racist angle and have the racist go over. That's just stupid and killed Booker T. That angle called for Booker to go over, and if the plan was to get the belt to Goldberg, HHH could have won the belt back later on with shenanigans. 

    HHH put over Benoit, then had his world title matches relegated to second on the card while he put his feuds with Michaels and Eugene on top. And the fact that he'd even FEUD with Eugene, who was a hot midcard act (but the key there is midcard) is insane, he basically killed the guy just to kill him. 

    As for Cena, pretty sure he needed to put over CM Punk for him to get as hot as he has, and he did it twice. 

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  103. Those wins did something for Punk, but probably not as much as his own promos did. One match had Cena blatantly winning ("visual submission," I guess) then Cena abandoning the hold to beat the big mean boss; another match had Cena pinned with his foot slung gingerly across the bottom rope.

    I don't think Cena politicked those finishes--though it's also probably true that he didn't insist on Punk winning, but whatever--but they definitely weren't anywhere near the level of HHH tapping to Benoit.

    All that said, HHH is a tool shed.

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  104. Wow, I think you're spot on with why he didn't want to go through with it. How could he let Steph and Kurt work together when THAT'S EXACTLY HOW he ended up getting Steph to marry him in the first place?

    I think there was probably a lot of jealousy with him against Kurt. Kurt came in and within a year people like us were talking about him being one of the best in the industry. I'm sure Hunter (just as Kurt did years later on Twitter) thought that giving Angle the ball when he had no experience was a slap in the face (nevermind that Kurt's whole life training for the Olympics WAS the experience he was being criticized for not having).

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  105. I was joking. It was obvious who you were talking about.

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  106. I remember reading about Lonodn in the Observer after he got fired and Meltzer reported how London was essentially a huge complainer, asking for time off and kinda rubbing others the wrong way.

    He was so talented but also seemed to get himself in trouble. I remember those crappy promos he gave after he lost the cruiserweight belt, when he would lose to an opponnent and cry affter the match. they were fucking terrible and apparently London did those on his own, completely ignoring what he has told.

    London probably got burned out quickly but he never attempted to help himself. In recent shoots and other shit he did for highspots.tv, he is very entertaining but you can see the bitchiness from the shoot with Kendrick. It was like he couldnt say a nice thing about anyone and Kendrick essentally had to nudge him along to hand out a compliment.

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  107. Gotcha, lol. I never understood the Zack Ryder love. I appreciate he got himself over or whatever but holy shit am I not interested in a Jersey Shore character.

    Also, his wrestling fucking sucks. Like...Billy Gunn levels of suck.

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  108.  God can you imagine being Bret Hart, having grown up in the business and going on 20 years as an active competitor, having seen it all, earned everything you had, and then having this punk ass midcarder who was barely even IC title level and couldn't even make it in WCW coming in and having booking power over you? No wonder Bret's been so bitter.

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  109. Totally. And if you read or hear interviews with Bret, he's forgiven Shawn but seems non-committal when HHH is mentioned.

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  110. I've seen Sting get pinned by Rick Rude, Flair countless of times, Vader, Great Muta, etc. I think he always did what's good for business. I even saw him get pinned by Shane fuckin' Douglas!

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  111. No kidding, it would be like if Ted Dibiase recovered from the shot to the turnbuckle and pinned Virgil clean at Summer Slam 1991 after all that buildup, sending Sherri to the back, etc.

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  112. you see how that would of been good for business... that wasnt gonna jive with HHH

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  113. 2011 - CM  Punk is over as hell, so HHH comes into his angle out of nowhere

    2012 - See above, except with Brock Lesnar

    HHH is some worthless piece of shit man. He fucked his way to the top, and no one ever bought him as one of the "big" wrestlers. It's Rock, Austin and Hogan that get associated with wrestling, and that probably eats HHH alive.

    Funny and related story: I was reading my twitter feed Sunday morning and TMZ Tweeted: "wow, Mayweather's crew includes 50 Cent and Justin Bieber!", blatantly ignoring that HHH was there too.

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  114. Actually he doesn't drink or do drugs

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  115. To be fair, they wrestled the RAW or Smackdown pre-Rumble so there was some minor continuity.

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  116. Yup, it was a screenshot of Kane tombstoning HHH.  The WWE released a letter to them to not do that.  Hilarious.

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  117. Triple H is four years younger than Booker T.

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  118.  I don't think Scott was arguing that HHH should have put Eugene over so much as that it was ridiculous that HHH was even in a match with him, as Eugene was a midcarder building some sympathy, and HHH had no reason to squash him like he did. Or something.

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  119. 2002: Hey, let's see where this thing with RVD goes. Patience.

    2003: Hey, let's see where this thing with Booker T. goes. Patience.

    2004: Hey, Eugene is going to be bigger than ever! Patience. 

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  120. And IIRC they weren't married IRL yet.

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  121. The history of professional wrestling is lined with companies falling to their demise because the guy in charge is dead set on pushing one person no matter what anyone else tells them, including the fans. Most of those situations involved nepotism. Verne Gagne in AWA and Bill Watts in WCW to just name a couple of examples. For the smaller, regional companies that didn't have the resources to recover from a narrow minded decision like that it pretty much meant losing all your money and going out of business.

    The WWE obviously has a lot more room for error and can usually recover from stupid decisions like that even when it's resulted in money getting flushed down the toilet. But the way HHH has been allowed to pretty much do what he wants for the last 12 years it's another sign of the same kind of nepotism. Whether it makes the situation any better or worse the fact that HHH actually isn't the worse wrestler of all time (unlike Eric Watts lol) has also factored in to it not totally ruining the company...yet.

    But eventually that kind of shit will backfire in their face. People can say all they want that HHH holding down all these people wasn't that bad of a thing because they never turned out to be big stars. Or the other people who did become big stars weren't really hurt by it and were able to recover. But we can't really say guys like Test, Eugene, or Booker in 03 or RVD in 02 would have made money or not because they weren't given the chance to succeed or fail. Plus it's one thing if there is a guy on top that holds everyone down. Eventually that guy will be gone. However, if that guy is part owner of the company, than where do you turn to as a worker?  The same shit is going to keep happening over and over again.

    Even though Vince gets a lot of the blame, and rightfully so in some situations, I actually think if it wasn't for Vince, shit with HHH would be even worse. Even though Vince is a heartless, evil person in most situations, he actually seems like kind of a push over when it comes to the people that are close to him. Shawn Michaels was the same way. He always seemed to get what he wanted with Vince. So I think Vince has backed down a lot to HHH's demands but at the same time will try and put his foot down in certain situations. Like with guys like Cena. But I also think that Vince has been trying real hard to take HHH out of the in ring picture as much as possible and keeps trying to convince him to be just a behind the scenes guy because he knows whatever program HHH sticks his nose in, than HHH is going want to come out looking strong and Vince knows hes going to cave in.Which is what I think they were going for with the "End of an Era" thing at Wrestlemania. I think Vince really wanted that to be HHH's last match. So the best thing for business is to keep HHH out of the ring. Of course that is easier said than done.

    That's why I think when Vince, and Linda as well are gone. HHH will ruin the WWE and it will go out of business. Because even half of the things HHH has done over the last 12 years would have ruined a smaller company.

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  122.  Your joking right?

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  123.  Your joking right?

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  124. Similarly, I've seen Triple H get pinned by Goldberg, Kane, Edge, Sheamus, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, John Cena, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton. I even saw him get pinned by  Jim Ross and Shelton fuckin' Benjamin!

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  125. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. If that was true he'd have.an 'X' on each hand as well as some tattoos advertising this fact to the world in a desperate plea for attention (while at the same time sporting an "I don't give a FUCK what people think of me" demeanor).

    Next time do your homework.

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  126. The fact that none of Scott's examples mentioned HHH's favorite punching bag, Chris Jericho (off the top of my head: phantom title switch, Lucy the Dog and related emasculation followed by Hell in a Cell, DX "versus" JeriShow) should give you an idea of the depths HHH's political games went to.

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  127. There's also a huge difference between who internet fans regard as good workers and who those behind-the-scenes feel are good workers.  A ton of lugs have been called great workers despite putting on boring matches.  So workate (as far as internet fans are concerned) likely isn't a big deal to Vince and other higher-ups.

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  128. so because he doesn't fuck over other people and the fans EVERY single time, it's somehow ok?  Interesting logic.  yeah, he "got it right" a few times.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day.  Sorry but if this was a court case, you would be the barely coherent, legally intoxicated public defender and the rest of us would be the high powered, highly paid legal team.  The jury deliberated for 20 minutes, 19 of which was about whether they should stay out long enough to get a free lunch, and came back with a guilty verdict.  Your client will be receiving a loving injection from an anonymous fellow soon. 

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  129.  doubtful. Vince wanted a two brands with WCW and WWF but decided, in conjunction with TNN, that WCW was too damaged.  However he never gave up the idea and thus we got stuck with the brand split, which I've hated since day one.

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  130. The ugly truth is every single big star has politicked to protect their spot.  And why wouldn't they?  What's good for the company may not be good for a particular wrestler so if you are in a position to protect yourself, you should do it.  The company certainly isn't.  All the famous promoters we know by name have at one time or another fucked guys over.  I don't blame a single guy who uses backstage politics for their own gain.  It doesn't necessarily lead to entertaining storylines or matches, but a guy's livelihood is more important than that.

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  131.  losing doesn't mean shit.  It's all in HOW YOU LOSE.  Kidman beat Hogan.  Made him look a thousand times worse than if he had never wrestled Hogan.  HHH put over Batista well and he put over Benoit pretty consistently (I'd argue that no one looked as good against HHH as Benoit on a consistent basis).  That's about it.  Hogan was a fluke.  Shelton was a fluke.  HBK lost more than he won.  Orton was shown to be inferior.  HHH "lost" to UT but drove him out of the WWE for year with his "brutality."  He undercut Goldberg, then gave him the win after it was meaningless and he knew the title run would fail. 

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  132.  and I don't blame him.  As I've said, HBK seems apologetic or atleast sad about his role in Montreal.  Even if he believed it was unavoidable or the right thing to do, he seems to be unhappy that he had to be a part of it.  HHH on the other hand was, has been, and is positively gleeful for his role in it.  I can only imagine how guys must have felt in 97 seeing this mid card hack leeching off of his drug-addled buddy and somehow turning this into the ability  to tell guys in the business for years, guys way up the card and guys with a ton more ability (atleast at that point) their finishes. 

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  133.  Intriguing idea on HHH/Vince relationship, however I have to point out that Verne pushing Greg as tag champ had little to do with the downfall of AWA.  Greg was a perfectly adequate tag champ, he never touched the world belt and was never treated as a huge threat to the world belt.  And Erik Watts?  The guy kicked around the TV title a bit and that's it.  Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.  You want nepotism helping to kill a company, the better example would be Bischoff's strange love for Hogan long past his shelf life.

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  134.  I think we all agree this was one of the stupidest, most infuriating things ever in the history of wrestling.

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  135.  People forget Booker had to completely rebuild his character through the Booker T & Golddust stuff. Only to never see through the final chapter of the character arc. Crap.

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  136. I just watched that match on YouTube for the first time. Fuck Triple H. Everything, and I mean everything in that match was set up perfectly for Goldberg to win the title and go on a dominant run with the belt. But HHH thought it was okay to do absolutely nothing for 98% of the match and then pin the guy who was a complete wrecking machine. Unbelievable. 

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  137.  I think the complaint about HHH is that it has gone beyond just making sure he goes over.  He has taken it upon himself to attempt sabotage Jericho and Rock when they came in, before they were even close to working with HHH.  As Scott points out, he inserts himself into matches and angles where there is no need, seemingly to kill a hot midcard act.  If it was a simple as Flair saying, "I ain't jobbing to Luger yet," then I understand.  But it's not.  It's far, far beyond that.  It's getting a sick enjoyment out of fucking with Ken Shamrock, Bret Hart, Chris Jericho, Rock, and many more just because he can or because he wants to make preemptive strikes before these guys come close to working a program with him.  It's pathetic and it's sad.  And I think the other issue is that Flair and Hogan, who are the other two most prominently criticized for politicking and pulling power plays, could absolutely back it up at the box office (well Hogan could until late 97 or so).  I don't think anyone would argue that HHH going over or holding down the long list of names that have been tossed around in this thread was in anyway justified by HHH's 'amazing" ability to draw money.  HHH was nuclear hot in 2000.  After that he was what he always is, a strong upper card guy who is a credible main eventer but not the face of the company, whether that is Austin, Rock, Cena, Batista, Lesnar, etc.

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  138. "This verdict is written on a cocktail napkin... and it *still* says guilty! And 'guilty' is SPELLED WRONG."

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  139. Triple H never got over that at the match that was supposed to make him. Summerslam 97, the MSG crowd started chanting Rocky and Rock got pushed to the moon afterward.

    He's been jealous every day since.

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  140. But does it really matter how one goes about it?  Is a preemptive strike any worse than striking when the guy is at his best/hottest?  Hogan fucked with Savage for 20 damn years and Flair fucked over Luger no clue how many times.

    In reality, most of the guys who have played the most politics were guys who didn't even NEED to do so.  But I guess once you start, you just can't stop.

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  141. Are you pulling all of this out of your ass or can you actually back up that HHH derived "sick enjoyment" from "fucking with Ken Shamrock, Bret Hart, Chris Jericho, Rock, etc"? 

    Seriously - where the fuck are you even getting this stuff? It's this kind of fabricated garbage that validates anyone who stereotypes the hardcore IWC as being out of touch neckbeards who really don't know anything about the business + just peddle gossip and rumors.

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  142. Hey, hey, hey...aren't you supposed to be on Raw tonight?

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  143. I think that might something to do with all the drugs. Shawn was so fucked up he barley remembers what was going on around this time, HHH was being a dick just for the sake of being a dick. Shawn apologizing, and having genuine remorse about not just that but all the other dickhead shit he was doing at the time, I'm sure helped Bret forgive him.

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  144. Worse about HHH is that, in the interview where he mentions his role in coming up with the concept of the Montreal Screwjob, he says, "I said, 'Fuck him! If he won't DO BUSINESS, then we have to DO BUSINESS for him!"

    All that bullshit talk about doing what was right for business, when HHH proceeded to spend the next decade undermining what was best for business wherever and however he could. At least when HBK was using his stroke to go over in the mid-90s, he was delivering like crazy in the ring. 2002-2003 HHH was the drizzling shits. And after he returned from his groin injury, he was bloated as hell and out of shape, and yet they still gave him the title right back in a triple threat with Golderg and Kane, just so Evolution had all the titles.

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  145. "Also thinking about it if any other wrestler was out selling a kayfabe injury, only to make an appearance on another widely watched event not selling that injury they would certainly be punished for doing so yet Triple H gets a free pass."

    You hit the nail on the head there.

    Also gotta say that I fully expect the eventual Brock/Trips match to end in wonky fashion - Trips gets the visual pin after a ref-bump, Trips gets an unseen foot on the rope while being pinned, Trips dominates the match and only loses after being distrated by Heyman... something along those lines.

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  146. Plus, there was the built-in storyline of Kendrick (and London, too?) being trained by Shawn. The two "degenerates" being mentors to the two "punk kids" would have been a great angle.

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  147. Let's see where they're going wiht the Lesnar thing...

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  148. I assume that Snapple070 was referring to steroids, which definitely seems like a realistic possibility: Trips' physique has varied a LOT since his WWE debut, going through periods of being hugely muscular, lithe and lean, and outright pudgy. And it's not just age, as he's cycled through each of those looks several times.

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  149. It matters because you're hurting someone else and frequently, by extension, the company.  Protecting your spot, and making sure that you don't turn into Chris I'll-put-anyone-over Jericho is one thing, but the examples listed above are another.  It creates friction in the locker room, and it hurts the longterm prospects of the company.

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  150. In all fairness, Benoit basically beat HHH in his first match.  HHH tapped during a ref bump and made Benoit look like he could beat the WWF Title holder.

    This probably should not have been a match on free tv, but it's a fantastic match, and one that was booked properly to make both men look like equals.

    Too bad it never really went anywhere from there.

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  151. And most people would agree that HHH from 2000-2001 was a fantastic worker.  Nearly everyone turned around on guys like Batista, and Orton, and even Cena has his support.  We don't all like the same wrestlers, you know.
    This idea that IWC creams themselves over "workrate" is half true at best.  I prefer guys who can do suplex variations but only if they know how  to use them right and put on an exciting match.  Notice how people still love Daniel Bryan despite the fact that he uses like 3 real moves now and most of them are kicks/strikes.  Most great indy workers use a large moveset to keep their matches from getting stale, but I assure you, WWE heavies aren't the only ones who know how to work a match.

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  152. You missed my point.  I'm simply saying that who the higher-ups consider good workers doesn't equal to what most internet fans consider good workers.  Most 'net fans dislike matches involving Earthquake, Yokozuna, Dusty Rhodes, Kane, etc.  But lots of wrestlers have talked about how good of workers those guys are.  So when companies push so-called "bad workers", many times it's because they simply consider them good workers. 

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  153. But does it matter WHEN you screw up someone's push?  So whether it's done before they take off or on the cusp of it, it's the same thing regardless.

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  154.  In Bret's book, and also implied in Jericho's HHH was out to get The Rock from the start. I think it started when he had to job the IC title to him....there's a story in Jericho's book about HHH giving him his cell number and telling him if he needs anything to let him know. He called him for direction to the arena and HHH told him to get a map and hung up. Then used Jericho's feud with Chyna to keep an eye on him and get him in trouble for giving her a black eye. I don't know what their relationship ever became - he talks about respecting HHH as a worker but doesn't say a lot about whether he likes him - but he was definitely rough on Jericho early in his WWF career. (He also made some joke in a DX segment about a homeless guy being a better worker than Jericho.) My theory on that was HHH was in the midst of his main event push and despite their best attempts wasn't getting over, while Jericho strolled in and got a massive reaction in one night.

    I'm not sure if he ever toyed with Shamrock, other than mocking him on air, which would've just fit his character at the time. He did make him seem like an idiot at times, but again that could just be the character. If he toyed with Bret that was likely due to being on Shawn's side there.

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  155. How did Triple H legitimize Jeff Hardy? I seem to remember Jeff Hardy beating Edge for the WWE Title, and not the guy he spent half a year chasing.

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  156. Did anyone see the interview HHH did months ago about Zack Ryder? I can't remember what he was promoting but someone asked him about Ryder and he completely dismisses Ryder and a nobody because only the internet cares about him. At this point they hadn't started Ryder's "push" but it was not long after they were in Long Island and "ribbed him" by making him think he'd have a big role on Raw and then didn't have him appear at all. I don't think Ryder was a threat to HHH's spot or anything but it just seemed weird that he'd be so quick to dismiss him. The guy got himself over online and it was starting to carry over to television crowds even though they never used him - how is that a bad thing?

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  157.  I can't entirely remember the Punk/HHH match, but from what I recall Miz/Truth/Ace were all over it and were taking out both guys. It just seemed like a situation where the two of them would realize they're not one another's enemy and start fighting off the intruders. I know that leads to a non-finish but there's really not logical reason why HHH has to beat Punk, interference or not.

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  158. I was full on mark when I was introduced to Sting in the early 90's and he came off to be as one of the best wrestlers in WCW but he could be beat. Vader beat him, Rude beat him, Flair beat him, I was pretty sure Luger could beat him. Where as I thought Hulk Hogan or the Warrior would win every time, Sting seemed like he could go either way....so I don't think he was booked overly strong. Strong, obviously, but not over-bearing at all.

    Also, whether he was winning matches or not, he didn't mind taking a back seat whenever they went with someone else in WCW. For their franchise player he really wasn't in the main event as often or consistently as you'd expect.

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  159.  I'd like to know if there's any truth to this, but I remember reading back when it happened that HHH going to Smackdown in 2004 was supposed to happen and he put up a shit about it. Staying on Raw but putting Shelton over was the compromise. But yes, it was a fluke and I think he got the win back eventually. Similar with Benoit - they really did position Benoit strongly as the guy who could beat HHH straight up. But I think HHH did get the win back in the end, on Raw. I'm not complaining about it, he really did a lot for Benoit, but it's not as if he's never beaten him either.

    Goldberg is an interesting one. He put him over fairly strong twice - Unforgiven when he won the belt, Survivor Series when he defended it. But the whole thing was such a mess. He was supposed to win at Summerslam, and the crowd was begging for it - then he loses. He gets the title and really didn't get to do much outside of feuding with Evolution, loses it in a horrible match, and that's that. Not exactly trying to go all the way with him.

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  160.  There's just no logical way to explain Booker losing at Wrestlemania. They started the feud off with Evolution putting a beating on Goldust for no particular reason. This leads to Booker T having issues with them, he wins the #1 contender spot so he can face HHH, then gets told he'll never beat HHH because he's a black criminal, and then he loses, clean as a sheet...what's also suspicious is the finish. Why did he lay around so long before he pinned him? Nothing about that match did anything to make Booker look good. He was clearly shown to not be in HHH's league and that the Pedigree nearly put him into a coma. The excuse at the time was HHH had to have the title for the Nash feud. Even in 2003 was there any reason Kevin Nash had to be fighting for the title? A year prior they wouldn't put him in a match at WM because they thought he was in such bad shape.

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  161. I understood the brand extension when it happened. It would've made more sense had it been WWF/WCW and they were ran as seperate companies. But they had their own roster plus the guys they got from WCW plus every available name in wrestler if/when they wanted them. Not enough room on one show for everyone. But that was in 2002 and they're not exactly over-flowing with talent these days.

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  162. Regarding the finish, I see a lot of people bitch about that. Everyone forgets, Booker almost kills HHH with the Harlem Hangover right before the Pedigree. Booker may have knocked him loopy with that, he pretty much came down right on his head. I agree with the criticizing of everything else about that fued, but I don't think the finish was HHH trying to bury him.

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  163.  hmm.  you seem to remind me of a former poster here.  Can't quite place  the name though. 

    Welcome to the board!!!

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  164.  Jericho also noted in his book that right after Invasion when he was starting to feud with The Rock, Gerald Brisco told him that he still heat in the locker room.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I thought Jericho was expecting the reader to read through the lines and know that it was HHH still playing BS games, particularly in light of the fact that HHH may have already known at that point that Vince was planning on put the belt on Jericho soon. 

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  165. It's not the same.  Take the Ryder example someone used above (true or not, let's just use it as an example) So somebody brings up Ryder at a creative meeting and says "So this Ryder kid-" and Triple H says "I'm gonna stop you right there."

    In this example you've got a number of potential motives/rationales.  Maybe HHH believes that Ryder is a potential big star, but since he's not Sheamus (HHH's pet project) then he needs to be kiaboshed.  In this example, he's flat out playing politics so that his answer is right.

    or

    Perhaps he sees the appeal, but doesn't like the appeal.  He doesn't like smark favorites, so he's going to stop things before the smarks become right.

    or

    He doesn't see the appeal because Ryder doesn't look like his ideal champion.

    or

    He genuinely believes that Ryder is not someone that should be the face of the company.

    So if he sabotages a push in its infancy, you can argue that he really does believe he is doing the right thing.  

    If someone is about to be launched as the next big thing, like Rock, and he tries to sabotage it, then there really is only one possibility:  "Someone's getting a push, it's not me.  Oh HELL naw."It means that everyone else has signed off, the wrestler is getting consistent pops, their gimmick/schtick is over, and everyone but HHH is onboard.  And so, yes, that is worse because there is nothing to object to except "He's not me/my chosen one."

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  166. Exactly.  They gave Eugene an artificial push way beyond his skillset to justify him having him a match with HHH, and then HHH squashed him like a bug to send him back down again.  Eugene was doing just fine as a comedy act with William Regal without the need for HHH to "elevate" him.  

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  167. Well struck, good sir. However, my comment has 2 more likes than yours, and so in the court of Internet Public Opinion, I am more correct (a smiley would go here if smileys were less passe).

    I will agree that the buck stops with Vince- however, HHH goes way over the top in "protecting his spot", and he's probably the single MOST protected wrestler in the history of the sport, and he's got to shoulder the blame for a lot of it. Especially when you consider how unselfish most of his contemporaries are (Rock & Foley laid down for TONS of guys). He gets full credit for jobbing to a small handful of guys, three times at WrestleMania, but his body of career-crushing (and the opinions of MANY of his fellows- Jericho, Foley, Rock & Austin have all called him out on it) stands for itself. I blame HHH and Vince for this. I can say many guys wouldn't do what HHH did to keep his spot, as MANY wrestlers haven't, despite probably ample opportunity.

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  168. I didn't miss your point.  I was saying that there is a much more varied opinion on the internet, and that frequently the opinion of the IWC matches up surprisingly well with management.  

    HHH is only one example.  Even among the workers you mentioned, only John Tenta is seen as a lug and even he gets points for making due with all the crap gimmicks he got stuck with.

    I don't think you'll find a single person who will have much bad to say about Yokozuna as a big man worker, and Kane regularly gets praised for his agility, and resiliency as a character.  Dusty Rhodes is seen as someone who knew how to work the fans sympathies, and while he didn't put on great matches like Flair did, he drew people with his charisma.

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  169.  I remember that part, he told him he had to really step up his game because there were people behind the scenes that wanted to see him fail. Now, who would have been in power at the time? The Rock? He was a friend and strong supporter of Jericho, and went out of his way to make him look good. Austin? He was entering into his paranoid phase, but he was the one who told Jericho he was getting the title, was happy for him and wanted to make him look good in their match. There's also a scene in that Wrestlemania The Movie where Austin compliments Jericho on his match with HBK and Jericho tells him to be safe in his match. They seemed on good terms. Undertaker? Maybe, but he went out of his way to compliment Jericho after he lost the title at WMX8. Kurt Angle is possible, Jericho does say that Angle expected to win the Undisputed Championship. But Triple H seems the most likely, since he's always been anti-Jericho for whatever reason. Also, Vince didn't seem fully behind Jericho even before he made him champion, and was considering having him drop the title to Kevin Nash of all people...sounds like someone was influencing him.

    I'm not sure why Jericho wouldn't just say it was Triple H, he wasn't overly shy about criticizing him in other areas of the book. But what I found interesting is that when he talks about HHH, it's strictly his respect for him as a performer, and their interactions seemed very business like, where as he mentions little moments with Rock, Undertaker or Austin to suggest they were more friendly and respectful of him.

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  170. Yeah, I found it strange that during this HBK/Bret reconciliation that HHH really didn't seem involved or to have anything to say about it. He's Shawn's best friend and he was right in the middle of it but he does come off like he doesn't care, and Bret doesn't say much about him. In a way I get it, he really didn't have a relationship with Bret, aside from being on Shawn's side during everything. Shawn and Bret had been friends and seemed to respect each other a lot, until they became rivals. As much as he hated Shawn at the time, in Bret's book he really does compliment his ability a lot and mentions a couple of times that they were close or where they backed one another up.

    They do seem to be genuine friends, but HHH couldn't have picked a better guy to buddy up to in HBK.

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  171.  Hardy beat him at Armageddon in a #1 contenders match. With a roll up, which HHH sold with a smirk in a "darn, he got me" kind of way. It did establish Hardy as a potential Main Eventer to me, because beating HHH, even with a role up, and not getting laid out by a Pedigree or sledgehammer immediately afterwards is about as over Triple H as you're getting...HHH beat him at a Smackdown pay per view, but it was with a crucifix after a Swanton (which doesn't entirely make sense, but it wasn't a dominant win)...I gotta believe at some point he beat him straight up with the Pedigree, but I can't recall it off the top of my head. But I'll give him credit, he wasn't that bad with Hardy, and letting Hardy be able to hang with him helped him. It's shocking, with the drug problems and all you'd think he'd have every excuse needed to Pedigree him back to the IC title, but he didn't.

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  172. Wasn't Punk supposed to walk someone to the ring a couple of months back and they pulled him from it?

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  173.  I can't remember if it was in regards to Benoit or Tazz (may have been on the ECW DVD, so Tazz) but even Vince mentions that was a bad call.

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  174.  That's a good point. I don't remember anyone being terribly thrilled with Hardcore Holly as a worker, but a lot of guys praised him, even if he was stiff. It depends on how you define a good worker. A guy who knows how to have consistently decent matches, even if they're not spectacular, who doesn't hurt anybody would probably be considered a good worker.

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  175.  I remember an interview with HHH, of course, when Goldberg came in, and he pretty much yacks on about how Goldberg can't do what he did in WCW because they don't have a huge roster to feed him to get him over so he'll have to adapt to "WWE style" and get over by wrestling...which sounds like just the type of bullshit he'd tell everyone backstage to justify not having to lose to him, or not booking him to get over. Goldberg destroying people got over. People liked to watch Goldberg destroy people. They expected to see Goldberg destroy people. They let him destroy Rodney Mack one week. People liked it. They let him destroy people in the Elimination Chamber - people loved it. Booking Goldberg is so easy the only way to mess it up is if you want to mess it up.

    Also, on this "we don't have a roster full of guys to feed to Goldberg" theory, they sure had a roster full of guys to feed to Triple H.

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  176.  I saw that shoot, and it's one of my favorites. But I came away from it getting why they weren't pushed like they could have been. It sounded like Benoit was desperately trying to take them under his wing and get them to take things seriously and they were annoyed by it. If a wrestler doesn't appreciate Chris Benoit thinking they're the future of the business and wanting to help get them there than they're probably not the right guys to be the future of the business. The whole interview I'm listening to London and I'm understanding why they stopped pushing him and at times were burying him. Wrestling is what it is, it's political, there's jealously and guys will use any reason they can to shun someone and keep them from advancing further than they can, and London seemed to give them all the ammunition they needed.

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  177. Yeah, even Austin ripped on HHH for that crap- "it's easy to say that its a Cyclical Business when you're 20  pounds overweight and still ruling the company" or something like that.

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  178. He seemed to start adding the bulk around the summer of 1998. He's bigger, but not very defined. He's jacked and ripped in 2000 though. Would that mean he was on or off steroids at the time? I'm not sure how they work, but don't they make you look bigger, but bloated? He was ridiculously big in 2002, and slowly got pudgy until he was hurt in 2006...came back in 2007 ripped again.

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  179. Jericho seems to respect HHH as a worker, and admires the fact that he's often straight-up with people and telling them their problems- but yes, his book is FULL of examples of HHH doing stuff to hold him back, yet covers his ass ever-so-much to avoid straight-up calling him a conniving prick who holds him down. I believe a good bit of that is because Jericho always plans on COMING BACK, and he doesn't need to be ripping on the heir apparent.

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  180. Ric Flair was having amazing matches with people through the 80's and 90's.  People came out of a feud with him looking like contenders if nothing else.

    Contrast that with what HHH was doing in this period, where he clearly stunk in the ring and yet went over time and again making the other guy look like a chump

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  181. An ex-WWE writer named Seth something did an interview just recently (you can find it on Youtube) where he pretty much confirmed that RVD, Kane and Booker T. were all supposed to go over Triple H but those decisions were all strangely reversed later. Just in case there was any doubt.

    You should also not forget that even while Chris Benoit was world champion in 2004, Triple H still was pretty much the main star of Raw.

    Anyway, Triple H wouldn't even bother putting over Punk last year, even with three people interfering and attacking the both of them. So I wouldn't bet on him losing to Brock Lesnar either.

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  182. Honestly, good for Triple H. Not many of us get to leave out our childhood dream. But unfortunately, sometimes we have suffer through his.

    Though, if I had a time machine, I'd probably go back and tell myself don't imitate Benoit or Hall...though the Rock was always my absolute favourite, so I guess that's OK.

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  183. Scott Steiner should not have been brought in as a face. Scott Steiner is the very definition of heel.

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  184. They got married around october 2003, I think.

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  185. Kurt and Stephanie had pretty good on screen chemistry, might have translated into real life...I don't blame HHH for being paranoid, even if it was just him being paranoid about losing his partner.

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  186. I feel like people like the idea of someone like him getting over. The forgotten underdog, overlooked by management, gets over through his own hardwork.

    Personally, I didn't find his youtube videos funny and I haven't seen that much from him in the ring, or on the microphone. Then again, I fucking love Mark Henry now so you never know who can surprise you...

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  187. I'll give HHH props on that one. Smackdown was excellent in 2002-2007. 

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  188. although I think that has a lot to do with the confidence (or: lack of confidence) by Vince. the Warrior or Bret Hart didn't really get to be the "top guys" during their respective runs either.

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  189. on the other hand, if it doesn't (necessarily) lead to an entertaining program, we fans have every right to complain.

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  190.  Interestingly RVD claims that Jericho also undercut him, though this seems to be ignored.

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  191. Oh, go suck it. The WWE buried a guy a lot of people, not just smarks, were behind. We'll like who we want to like and you can kindly bugger off.

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  192. Was it Seth Mates? 

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  193. Let's face it, HHH owes most of his career to his wife. If he doesn't hook up with Steph, he's not the 12 time champion, Royal Rumble winner, and so on. I really do think Steph doesn't happen he's out of the WWE by 03, no way his spot would of been held on to after that quad injury plus the fact he was awful in 03-04. 

    Hell, I'd be insecure too if I had a nose that big. 

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  194. I find it ironic as well that when HHH's big return came around in 2007, who did beat......Booker. 

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  195. I'm curious what guys Triple H made to look like a chump, most of his reign of terror matches that I saw consisted of him bumping like crazy for his opponents, did you see his performance in that Steiner match?

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  196. Well, it's because it's Jericho, who can do no wrong.

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  197. I've never heard that Jericho undercut RVD before, but it's not surprising that things like that happens, even with internet darlings- everyone's out to protect their spot, after all. Nobody's arguing that ONLY Triple-H does some of this shit- it's just argued that he does it THE MOST, to the point where there's a huge stream of broken guys at his feet, with a comparatively-tiny assortment of guys he's actually chosen to job to (and only a few of those didn't do a high-profile job in return).

    I mean, Steve Austin, Rock & Bret all protected their spots a bit, but even THEY were willing to do the job when it came down to it. Jericho could've undercut a guy or two, but his eyes stared up at the lights more than any other Main Eventer I could name.

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  198. Jericho was EXTREMELY diplomatic in his book about Triple H, almost to the point where it was like, "OK, we get it that you can't burn bridges because the guy is going to run the company."

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  199. I'd say the Steiner match is the exception, but then that was a hail Mary by Hunter when Steiner started to die on his arse.

    The massive pause before the pin against Booker at WM XIX and the jobbing of Goldberg at summerslam 03 are the most obvious examples.

    Fairly sure RVD was made to look like a fluke who didn't belong at that level as well (but been a while since I watched it)

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  200.  And don't forget that's the famous Wrestlemania where Brock used 3 F5's to beat Angle, Hogan used 3 legdrops to beat Vince, Rock used 3 Rock Bottoms to beat Austin...and HHH used 1 pedigree to beat Booker. Which one of those 4 jobs was the real jobber?

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