Good morning, Scott -
I was watching "Best of Clash of the Champions" on Netflix, and I wanted to ask your opinion on something.
Was there ever another referee who tried to make himself a focal point of the match more than NWA/WCW senior official Tommy Young? Maybe not in a "get yourself over" type of way - but man, you sure do notice him when he's in the ring.
Whenever one wrestler was outside the ring, and the other would stand on top of the turnbuckles to play to the crowd, Young would be there, either leaning out between the ropes to the outside or actually standing on the ropes, berating the wrestler to get down off the turnbuckles. Or if there was a pinning situation, Young would go FLYING over them to get in position to make the count.
Maybe the most obvious example is during the Ivan Koloff/Ricky Morton Russian Chain Match - and Morton has touched all three turnbuckles and is straining to reach the fourth - and Young stands there with his arm in the air, pointing at Morton with his other arm. Then he points at the turnbuckle...then Morton...then the turnbuckle...then Morton. This goes on for a LONG time.
So - was this just an example of Young wanting to be noticed? To get over? Was this encouraged by the NWA/WCW? I don't recall seeing other referees do this during other matches. My opinion is that referees should be largely unnoticed during a match - not trying to make themselves the center of attention. What are your thoughts on Young (if you have any)?
RB
Young was the best referee ever. He was an entertaining character who used to integrate himself into the storylines of the match, and people believed that he was in charge of the match when he was refereeing. Plus his involvement lent whatever he was doing a certain importance. Plus he had some of the coolest referee spots ever, like diving of the ring to make the count for Brian Pillman when he was close to the ropes. The HHH-Hebner shoving match spot is a direct tribute to the Flair-Young spot, although when Young laid down the law with Flair, you BOUGHT it. Young also invented the "Kick the heel's hands away from the ropes when they're reaching" spot. He's just awesome, and I'm sad that taking all those bumps destroyed his back.
I'm sad that taking all those bumps destroyed his back.
ReplyDeleteWell, that getting shoved by Tommy Rich into the bottom ropes and screwing up his neck sure didn't help.
But Tommy Young does indeed rule. He should get bonus points just for sticking Nikita's Koloff back into his singlet.
I'd say a runner up would be Brian Hildebrand/Mark Curtis. No one shadow boxed better than him.
As for today, I've always liked Mike Chiota b/c of the way he sold the Big Show/Lesnar ring collapse.
Tommy Young needs to do DDP Yoga to fix his back up again.
ReplyDeleteWhat Scott said. Tommy Young was the best referee ever, and whoever's second is a DISTANT second.
ReplyDeleteCharles Robinson was always my favorite referee, if ONLY because of that one match (Slamboree 99 maybe?) where he wrestled as Lil Naitch and it was awesome.
ReplyDeleteI also remember him doing a 100m wind sprint during a WrestleMania, forget which one now, for an EPIC 2-count.
Don't even know who Tommy Young is but I didn't start watching anything other than WWF until around 1994.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm gonna have to agree with the e-mailer on this one. Entertaining as Young may have been, I'd rather a referee not draw attention to himself and I'd rather a match not need a referee hamming it up to enhance it.
ReplyDeleteI like him a lot, but what I want to know is why a person isn't allowed to grab for the ropes to prevent being sunset flipped.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I have no more love for a referee in a fake sporting event making the show about him- as a rule, there are exceptions of course- than I do a referee in a real sporting event doing the same thing. Hi, Joey Crawford!
ReplyDeleteHe worked for Crockett and WCW in the 80s, so was the referee during a lot of the famous JCP/NWA/WCW matches from that era.
ReplyDeleteI love how he always (justifiably) focused on the man's shoulders on the mat, allowing for a heel like Flair to use the ropes for leverage.
ReplyDeleteI think the general idea is that it's comeuppance for all the times the heel has used the ropes illegally behind the ref's back. Logically, yes, it should force a rope break on the part of the guy who is attempting the sunset flip, but very little about wrestling physics or rules is ever logical.
ReplyDeleteI think that every single person involved in a match, in whatever capacity, should be enhancing it in some way, otherwise there is no reason for that person to be there.
ReplyDeleteBUT enhancing the match <> getting yourself over.
Agreed, but I think the ways a referee should enhance the match should be more subtle than actively, regularly making yourself part of the show. You're right, it's a fine line to walk between playing your part to make it a better overall production, and going into business for yourself.
ReplyDeleteI got no place for activist referees!
ReplyDeleteInteresting topic. I don't mind noticing the referee in a match, I honestly can't think of too many situations where the ref is "over acting".
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite referees was Nick Patrick, he had that herky jerky count cadence with his left hand which was interesting, but even moreso, very few referees actually sell the beating a wrestler is taking in the ring. Next time you watch a match reffed by Nick Patrick, any particularly devastating move, watch his facial expressions, it used to crack me up all the time. (All this prior to the "evil ref Nick Patrick").
On the other hand, my least favorite referee was Earl Hebner only because his sloooooowwwww count REALLY annoyed me and seemed so fake to me even as a little kid.
Yep. Small things like that were what made him great.
ReplyDeleteI think WWE has conditioned us to think referees are supposed to be invisible bodies that only should be recognized when they're bumped. But I loved Tommy Young - I think he mastered the art of adding to the match without making himself the focal point (unlike that old TNA ref in the soccer uniform).
ReplyDeleteI was also big on Tommy Young back in the day - it helped that NWA refs were supporting characters in their own right, as opposed to what ETB mentions below. So when Young got the call for a championship match, it added a little something.
ReplyDeleteWrestle mania 24 had the mega sprint. Edge VS Taker
ReplyDeleteThe ropes are out of bounds, whether offensively or defensively. If your opponent is in them the hold is broken, and if you're trying to use them, your hold is broken as well.
ReplyDeleteBut it seems in that case that the referee is enabling, rather than breaking, the sunset flip hold which started before the guy grabbed the ropes.
ReplyDeleteBest referee working today is Bryce Remsberg, by a mile.
ReplyDeleteAs far as refs go, I've always liked Mike Chioda. He has a strong count and doesn't really make a stink in there. My opinion of referee's is based on their counting cadence. I really pay attention to that which is why I'm not a fan of Scott Armstrong as ref. He counting cadence is really weird and it doesn't a good flow of 1, 2, 3. IDK maybe I'm just paying too much attention when he counts.
ReplyDeleteRight, I wasn't explaining myself very good there. If you're getting sunset-flipped and you're IN the ropes, then the hold is broken because you're out of bounds and therefore the guy executing the move is breaking the rules. However, by the same token, because the ropes are out of bounds it's against the rules to use them to better your position, like if you're ATTEMPTING to block a sunset flip. So if you're grabbing the ropes, whether it's to apply leverage on an abdominal stretch or block a sunset flip, you're the one breaking the rules. Make sense?
ReplyDeleteWas "Dangerous" Danny Davis the first evil referee?
ReplyDeleteGod, I hate Slick Johnson.
ReplyDeleteI liked Earl growing up, mostly because if there was a big time WWF match he was in it. I thought the slow count added drama to the match and was appropriate when he got bumped. I loved the near-fall in Hogan-Warrior at WM 6 when he counts one with his left hand and two with his right.
ReplyDeleteBeen wondering this for awhile and now seems a good time to ask: I'm rewatching early '97 WWF right now and I've noticed that, much like today, the refs back then were nameless nobodies to the commentary team. At RR97 JR even mentions that Vader has a back story with an official but goes out of his way to not name him. Same deal today. Yet, during the Attitude era and the following years the refs all had names and an occasional angle. What the hell is the point of the nameless ref thing and is there a reason Vince went that route during PG eras?
ReplyDeleteDon't forget Scrappy McGowan in the ref talk! Coolest ref name ever!
ReplyDeleteIf you want to see a referee putting himself over at the expense of the match just watch Flair-Race from Starrcade '83. Gene Kinisky ruins the match by constantly getting himself between both guys.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mind the drama of it, the problem was early in the match, he'd have a totally different cadence so you couldn't buy any near falls in the middle or even the mid-portions of the match. Now, I know even a 12 year old mark in myself knew that you wouldn't buy a clothesline at the 7 minute mark of a match actually ending it, but the ref (at least to me) has to count like it's plausible. That's one reason I do like Mike Choida, he has this violent count where even a routine pinning attempt he makes to look like he's .00000000000000000000001 seconds away from a 3 count.
ReplyDeleteBetween him getting in the way and his ridiculously slow counting, he nearly makes that match unwatchable.
ReplyDeleteYesssss tommy young was the man
ReplyDeleteIm so fucking sick of joey crawford and his style of showing guys up but hes one of the better refs
ReplyDelete"Young also invented the "Kick the heel's hands away from the ropes when they're reaching" spot."
ReplyDeleteLoved it when he'd do that during a Doom match to Butch Reed. Reed to stare at Young and point at him while he crashing to the mat. I'm definitely in the "Tommy Young is the best ref ever" club.
Tommy was the best...from sliding out of the ring to get a better angle to count the pin, to sliding his hand under the pinned guy's shoulder to see if it was down, to telling the crowd how close he was to counting three, to selling moves with facial grimaces, he was the best. just as long as he didnt talk.
ReplyDeleteThat was almost as bad as the Wrestlemania VI match between Roddy Piper and Bad News Brown.
ReplyDeleteAlmost.
Michael "PS" Hayes was the referee that cost Kerry Von Erich a cage match against Ric Flair. But if you're talking about just a regular referee going bad, I can't think of anyone before Davis, though I have a feeling that something like that was done in either Memphis or World Class before.
ReplyDeleteTommy Young made the match feel important. He may not have been "in the right" on all occasions, but he always made me feel like he was desperately trying to control the match as best as he possibly could. If a match was important enough that Tommy felt compelled to dive out of the ring to get in good position to make a count, then I knew that this match was a big deal!
ReplyDeleteNowadays refs don't even seem to care if they can actually see the shoulders when they are making a count. The new refs have forgotten how to work every bit as much as the new wrestlers have.
Tommy Young was, no question, the man! But props have to go to WWF ref Dick Worley. He was the first ref I actually knew by name. And you knew it was a big match if he was the third man in the ring. Also, his "fastcount" on a heel wrestler he didn't like was classic!
ReplyDeleteI wonder what episode # RAW would be on now if they had never gotten bumped by the Westminster Dog Show...
ReplyDeleteI loved Nick Patrick's count, to me its the benchmark of all counting styles. All the other WCW refs around 97-98 were great too.
ReplyDeleteCharles Robinson is fantastic. He's my favourite ref in the WWE.
ReplyDeleteI can't stand Scott Armstrong's count. I hadn't been watching WWE regularly for years, but CM Punk's whole thing brought me back in. His reffing was so off on the Money in the Bank PPV compared to what I was used to. The way he was counting was telegraphing to me that "this isn't the finish."
ReplyDeleteAnother referee from the past that always felt off was Tim White. Something about him didn't work for me.
But I do love me some Charles Robinson and Nick Patrick. WWF was never beat WCW in the awesome ref department.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8kzlLxvYAA - Randy Anderson ftw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX3hnt3rFdY - don't fuck with Mark Curtis
I never cared for his count- it looked too jerky and weird- like he was having a seizure. Didn't he always hold his other arm funny, too- like behind his head or something? It always looked like there was something medically wrong with him.
ReplyDeleteBret Hart mentioned in his book that Stampede Wrestling had a crooked referee character named Sandy Alexander Scott. In fact, the whole Danny Davis thing was pretty much a ripoff of the Sandy Scott-Stampede angle.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, Slick Jackson has always been awful. And you're spot-on about WWE referees being invisible today, the only one I even recognize is the guy who looks exactly like Dave Chappelle.
ReplyDeleteAnd IMO, all-time best ref was indeed Tommy Young, with Mark Curtis a close second. My pick for all-time worst ref would be Bronco Lubich, with Frank Morell and Jacqueline tied for second place.
JCP referees > every promotions' referees.
ReplyDeleteTommy Young fucking OWNS!
If you disagree, i got two words for ya'
Youtube him
idk man... Mark Curtis (brian hildebrand) was awesome RIP.
ReplyDeleteBasically its for me:
1. Tommy Young
2. Mark Curtus
3. NICK PATRICK
4. Jim Molino/ Finnagin (ECW they both were awesome)
5. Charles Robinson/Pee Wee Anderson
Flair/Race Starrcade 83: THE CURE FOR INSOMNIA!
ReplyDeleteThats why Mark Curtis is awesome!
ReplyDelete