Hey Scott,
I've been watching old 1997-1998 Raw is Wars and PPVs lately. Has there ever been a less charismatic wrestler that was pushed as much as Ken Shamrock? It seems like they REALLY wanted to push him first as a face, then as a heel, but no one bought into him despite his history in the UFC. He was terrible on the mic and just bland in the ring. Your thoughts?
Thanks!,
Matt
Well Ken and Tito Ortiz went on to draw the biggest UFC buyrate of all-time to that point, one which beat almost every wrestling PPV in history as well, so I wouldn't say he didn't have charisma. Shocking as it sounds, I think it was more just that WWF didn't know how to use him correctly.
By the way, for those wondering, Impact is coming this afternoon, as I finally got a chance to go see Amazing Spider-Man last night. LOVED IT. I just wish we didn't have three other Spider-Man movies preceding it treading the same territory, because this would have blown me away if it was the first one done. But I loved that it was pretty much dead on to the Ultimate Universe comics and Andrew Garfield totally nailed that spirit of Peter Parker and wisecracking Spider-Man.
The problem for Shamrock was the Rock. If he had gotten the IC Title in early 1998, i think he wouldve been on his way to main event status. But the WWF (rightly) kept the title on the Rock and pushed him to the moon instead.
ReplyDeleteHe was definitely over in 1998 as a face, especially during the feud with Owen. The whole thing with his sister, Val Venis & Billy Gunn really destroyed his momentum in 1999. And by then, the WWF was in a total soap opera world that he didnt fit in with.
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ReplyDeleteHas there ever been a less charismatic wrestler that was pushed as much as Ken Shamrock?''
THE PATRIOT.
"Has there ever been a less charismatic wrestler that was pushed as much as Ken Shamrock?''
ReplyDeleteJEFF JARRETT
I kid, I kid.
Wow, I can't remember the last time I disagreed more with Scott on a post. This includes both the Spider-Man film and Shamrock. But hey, to each his own.
ReplyDeleteI think the company presented Shamrock just fine for the most part. They sold him as an nearly unstoppable, dangerous animal who could snap you in half if you looked at him the wrong way. He just didn't have the mic skills, personality or enough in-ring ability to make it big. But he was successful on a mid-card level.
As far as ASM goes, not only did the film seemed chopped up, my biggest problem was that it felt totally unnecessary. If your going to reboot a franchise that's less than 10 years old (with the last film being released a mere 5 years ago), you better have something new to say. I felt like I was just watching Spider-Man 2002 with a different director and cast.
I disagree with this a little. Ken Shamrock did fairly well during his WWF tenure, especially late 97 and the entire 98. I would say towards the end of his run (when it was announced he would face Chris Jericho at the Unforgiven 1999 PPV) the fans may not have been reacting to him like they did the previous year(s). I also feel he would've made a decent WWF champion, even if it was for a short reign.
ReplyDelete"Has there ever been a less charismatic wrestler that was pushed as much as Ken Shamrock?
ReplyDeleteHe was terrible on the mic and just bland in the ring. Your thoughts?Thanks!," - Matt
Ken Shamrock was friggin' awesome! What is this guy talking about? The dude was the reason I became a UFC fan and brought me back into enjoying wrestling again. Crazy Ken Shamrock was my favorite. I have a tough time judging the work-rate of a wrestler from the attitude era because it was more sports entertainment than work-rate.
Dan Severn says hi, although he didn't get quite shamrock's push. . .
ReplyDeleteWhy kid? It's true.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Weyer and MrMaye, Shamrock was fine, especially during the first half of his run. He was one of those rare guys that actually FELT like a badass and felt legitimate even in the midcard. He was a alot like Benoit in that regard; he was never a main eventer, but if you stuck him in the ring with Austin or Undertaker, he felt dangerous - one ankle lock and it over! He also never seemed afraid of the main eventers, which was cool. I think he could have gotten a sympathy title run in the long run, maybe even done well with it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the other posters that he seemed best fit for the more intense, violent state of the WWF in 1997 and 1998. His stuff with Rock managed to make them both seem big, and Shamrock was also headed to main event in late 1998. What hurt him was the transition to more silly, sexual and melodramatic storylines in 1999. A straight-faced ass kicker became a joke in that era (look at Blackman as well) and we were consistently told not to take guys like him (or Angle) seriously.
Shamrock should have been pushed more like Brock's original run. The unstoppable machine. He's not as physically imposing, so I would've focused on his submissions. Break a few legs to get over the point that he knows how to hurt people.
ReplyDeleteAs for Spider-Man, totally agree. If this had been the first one, it would've been awesome. But it isn't and that first hour really drags. Still there is some really cool stuff after that.
You bring up a great point. Ken Shamrock brought a legit toughness into the WWE at the time. He was believable as a guy who can kick ass. I always considered him WWE's version of Chris Benoit before he arrived into the WWE in 2000.
ReplyDeleteKen Shamrock could hang with guys in the main event scene at the time consisting of Bret Hart, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Undertaker and HBK.
I am biased because I am a Shamrock mark; lifelong fan of his MMA career and wrestling career.
That match was TERRIBLE. It's one of the biggest jokes in wrestling, with Michaels obviously on something and basically screaming out spots to fuck with Shamrock, who didn't have the experience to adjust accordingly.
ReplyDeleteAnd the WWF (sort of) seemed like they were ready to push him more, starting with that one night IC title tournament on Raw in October of 1998. And I do agree with the melodramatic storylines. I mean, "that's my sister!" Come on now, lol. That sort of neutralized him, and now when I think about it, I don't think the fans saw him as much of a badass after that either.
ReplyDeleteShamrock's mic skills were bad, and that's an understatement. His promo the night after the 1998 King Of The Ring is proof of that.
ReplyDeleteCompletely agree. His trajectory was going along the Rock and HHH's, but the new direction the company started to take fit their strengths much better than his.
ReplyDeleteExactly.
ReplyDeleteNow, I do agree with this. That wasn't one of Shawn's best matches, probably his worst that year, and it didn't help Shamrock either.
ReplyDeleteI didn't like Shamrock much as a face - it felt like that feud with Rocky went on forever.
ReplyDeleteBut I loved heel Shamrock. He was a no nonsense ass-kicker. I would've bought him against Austin for sure. But like others said, he wasn't cut out for angles with porn stars and possible incest and they booked him to be kind of stupid.
Coincidentally there's a story about Shamrock on TMZ today. Apparently he saw two women in a fist fight with a crowd of people watching. He went to break it up. When he did so a very large person jumped on his back, he threw the person to the ground and decked "him." Turned out to be a woman! No charges pressed b/c it's self defense. Just funny.
ReplyDeleteI think the feud with Rock helped the both of them, but as all know, Rock went on to bigger and better things. As a face and heel, he did well, but he was better as a face, and again, good call on the possible incest angle. Man that completely cut the legs out from under Shamrock. He did have a good match with Austin on the 9/14/98 edition of Raw, and I think they had another good match (I Quit) a few weeks later on Raw again. The chemistry was there a little, and it would've been interesting to see what they would've done in a one on one match on PPV.
ReplyDeleteShamrock was a victim of Russo during 1999. That's NOT an outright condemnation of the man so you know, I realize he was a big part of WWF becoming huge.
ReplyDeleteI added that last part in case Johnny C was still lurking around somewhere.
The feud with Shamrock did a lot for Rocky.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't a great wrestler, but I loved when he'd snap and an army of refs would come out to calm him down & he'd belly to belly suplex all of them.
ReplyDeleteAs a 12 year old watching Ken Shamrock feud with HBK I remember being a huge fan of his, so whatever they were doing with him worked for me. To be fair they just let him go out there and do his thing, which was to kick ass and belly to belly suplex everyone
ReplyDeleteI think Ken had some charisma, when he was allowed to go compeltely pshcyo was when he was at his best, like at Summerslam in the match with Bulldog.
ReplyDeleteThat was the match that got him over too.
ReplyDeleteLol, and that usually led to the referee reversing the decision.
ReplyDeleteYes exactly! I used to love that shit. I think they booked him pretty successfully
ReplyDeleteI really, really liked Shamrock in the ring. He was one of my favorites in the WWF, because he felt authentic unlike the rest of the Attitude midcard idiots.
ReplyDeleteMarc Webb also totally nailed the spirit of horrible CGI lizard creatures.
ReplyDeleteWasn't Michaels afraid Shamrock was going to shoot on him because of Montreal or something?
ReplyDeleteSpiderman was rather forgettable thanks to being almost identical in tone and feel of the original spidermans, if anything it was less fun and had less charm than the original in 2002. I just felt like I was ripped off so the movie studios could rinse me of more cash.. sure that is their common aim anyway but this actually FELT like that directly.
ReplyDeleteAs for Shamrock, I thought he was a beast in the ring, I actually never understood why WWE didn't push him harder, I blame Vince more than I do Kenny for botching his run. I'm sorry but who didn't mark out when he'd 'switch' and go psycho suplexing referees left right and center!
Ken Shamrock was one of my favorites. He was a badass and his music was fucking awesome.
ReplyDeleteOh he had GREAT
ReplyDeleteThat's true. Russo gave him the Corporation, the Union, Ryan Shamrock, and a Severn feud that didn't have any matches. He wasn't given much to run with.
ReplyDeleteI'll never forget these chairshots Rock gave him:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hacZQCUQyc
I've always been a big mark for MMA guys getting into wrestling, hell I even became a fan of Kama because of his MMA gimmick in '95 so when I first heard Shamrock was coming to the WWF, I was excited, but that quickly changed when I saw the way he was booked just like every other wrestler.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed Bischoff had his finger on the pulse on this issue because he said the way he pushed Goldberg was the same way WWF should have pushed Shamrock and he was correct. However, I did think Shamrock was pretty awesome in his heel run and a shame he never got pushed to be Austin's main event foil.
If I recall correctly, those shots were unprotected too.
ReplyDeleteLoved Shamrock he had tons of charisma in the ring, just not on the mic..
ReplyDeleteOne of the most hilarious moments involving Ken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm0ViWrskb8&playnext=1&list=PL1F43831314ED43C3&feature=results_video
Yes, you can watch the video, the Rock hit him IN THE FACE!!!!
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, he definitely was bad on the mic. I think he knew it too, lol. I will say when he kept it short and sweet he was fine.
ReplyDeleteYep, I remember those chairshots too. At the time I was like "damn!" Lol.
ReplyDeleteWas that Koko B. Ware in the Blazer outfit? Also, forgot what a five head Debra had.
ReplyDeleteWhat would you all pick as Shamrock's best match during his WWF tenure?
ReplyDeleteBobby Lashley has gotta be in the conversation too.
ReplyDeleteI think his best match was as special ref between Steve Austin and Bret Hart. ;-) The tension at the end of the match between him and Bret Hart could have lead to a great feud, but after he went to the midcard it was kind of over.
ReplyDeleteProbably the one with Owen in the UFC-type cage.
ReplyDeleteI would pick this one as well, from Summerslam 98.
ReplyDeleteSee, I don't compare pro wrestling success with MMS success because one is real and one is not. You don't have to do five minutes promos to be successful in MMA, you just have to win fights. Granted some charisma definitely helps but winning fights is the important thing. Plus Dan Severn was a successful MMS fighter but he was TERRIBLE professional wrestler.
ReplyDeleteI think Shamrocks biggest issue was that his heart never really seemed to be in it. He like real fighting better. He just never took to they fake stuff quite as well. The person I compare him to the most is Kurt Angle, because it seems they were trained by th same person or at least to wrestle the same style. They both did alot of suplexes, both used the ankle lock etc. But Angle took to pro wrestler really quickly and it seemed like he had a deserve to be good at it and out in great matches. Plus he had the right personality for pro wrestling.
Also I'd like to add that former WWE guys are more successful going to MMA than MMA guys are going to WWE. The biggest two examples being Shamrock and Brock. WWE fans will match UFC show if a wwe guy is not it. A non wrestling MMA fan will not watch WWE no matter what.
THANK YOU SCOTT! As a huge Spiderman fan I loved the reboot and thought it captured the feel of the book and character perfectly. An absolute perfect example of what a comic book move SHOULD be, despite having to relive the origin again. Some people agree, more disagree, but anyone who disagrees I've noticed either isn't a comic book fan and thinks it's cheesy anyway, or hasn't seen it at all. It helps that all involved with the move have gone on record saying that they're fans, love the character (as opposed to falling IN love with the character AS they shoot) and wanted to do a service for current Spidey fans. Raimi's films were great for silver age Spidey, but this series is for current readers.
ReplyDeleteWow, there's something you won't see in the WWE again anytime soon. Not that that's a bad thing.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to cheat. 10 man tag at Canadian Stampede. 5 star match.
ReplyDeleteNot a bad pick.
ReplyDeleteworld's most dangerous chair shot
ReplyDeleteI think my favorite part of the new Spider-man is when he castrates a car-thief with his webbing, after already stringing him up against the. If the webbing is strong enough in it's impact to restrain a fully grown adult against the wall, the impact from said webbing onto a man's testicles would likely cause serious testicular torsion and internal bleeding (Watch the scene again, he keeps "impact webbing" the guy over and over and over and over again, then nails him one final time in the nuts. What a stand up guy.
ReplyDeleteAlso where is this wise-cracking spidey I keep hearing about. All I remember is the scene where he wise-cracks against the car-thief, then spends the rest of the movie in a largely avoidable situation where everyone he loves and cares for ends up in danger or serious emotional trauma.
They didn't get the same push, but Prince Iuakea,
ReplyDeleteEvan Karagias (who was just all-around terrible), and a couple other WCW guys I can't think of off hand are right up there.
The Amazing Spider-Man was awesome. Dennis Leary was great, I loved how they contrasted Spider-Man and The Lizard during fight scenes (imagine a Kane/Mysterio fight, or something). Even Stan Lee's cameo was a treat. Sure, it starts slow -- who wants to see Baby Parker? -- but it was a hell of a lot of fun.
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest (and slightly controversial), I liked Spider-Man more than Dark Knight Rises. It was more fun and entertaining, which is something the Dark Knight Rises forget it was supposed to be once Bane beat Batman.
ReplyDeleteI never though Shamrock lacked charisma. I think sometimes we confuse lacking mic skills with lacking charisma. Shamrock was never a guy that made me want to change the channel. Plenty of guys with in-ring charisma who weren't Jericho with 1004 moves or even Malenko with just 1000.
ReplyDeleteThe Patriot had his moments. And his mask was cool, which helped compensate Del Wilkes a lot if only in terms of him having a cool alter ego in the ring....
ReplyDeleteThere's a chance you're taking the film a tad too seriously.
ReplyDeleteI always liked Shamrock, I never thought he was boring. Not great on the mic, no, but that's not the only form of charisma.
ReplyDeleteI was sad to see him go.
But when everything becomes about the science and the serious nature of it all, it dares you to take it that seriously. If it were a fun, powder-puff sort of adventure like the first three-spider man films, then I wouldn't bat an eyelash. But this movie is deliberately grounded in the 'real world'
ReplyDeleteDKR wins if only for the part where Batman cuts Bane's mask cords and he starts going APESHIT trying to kill him. I nearly jumped from my seat to screaming when that happened.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised about how much I liked ASM. I was happy to see Peter and Uncle Ben not treated as patron saints like Raimi's films did often, but that they had dimension to the characters (esp. Peter's introverted nature) and their relationship was more fleshed out. It was great that Peter let Gwen in on his secret early, avoiding one of the worst aspects of the Raimi films (the "I can't tell you who I am" shit), and Emma Stone is gonna be a star for a long, long time. My only nitpicks is that the film seemingly got neutered from its original cut (the trailers seemed to imply that Richard Parker messed with his kid's DNA and that Connors had something to do with their death) and I didn't like that Aunt May was shoved aside after act 1. Other than that, a bang-up job. I'd still place it behind TDKR and Avengers, but getting three good superhero films in one summer is good enough for me!
ReplyDeleteThat or the triple threat cage match. But the Lion's Den match still remains one of my favorite childhood matches, esp. since it was still real to me then dammit.
ReplyDeleteExcept that they followed it up immediately by ripping off The World is Not Enough.
ReplyDeleteNever saw that movie.
ReplyDeleteI'm SO GLAD they didn't go with that cliched, misses-the-point "experimented with his DNA" origin. Very glad.
ReplyDeleteLiked the movie a ton when it focused on Peter. The Spidey stuff was hit-or-miss for me, much like the first film.
It's the James Bond movie with Denis Richards as a nuclear physicist. The Talia reveal is ripped straight from it, and they somehow managed to do it worse.
ReplyDeleteJust going to threadjack for a second to say that Chikara King of Trios looks amazing this year. http://youtu.be/t7obSL5DmgU
ReplyDeleteHow about some Chikara love, Doomsters?
There better be some Dragon Dragon, otherwise, NO BUYS
ReplyDeleteIn that brief HBK/Shamrock "feud," it really felt like Shawn was legit scared of Shamrock. DX insulted him, but they did very carefully.
ReplyDeleteI can't fucking wait for KoT this year. I will say though I hope some major league shit goes down involving the Gekido. That whole storyline has been meandering since the June iPPV and needs some spicing up. Quack teasing a heel turn just won't cut it.
ReplyDeleteAlso I'm going to Chikara's debut Alabama show right after KoT so that should be great.
Is Dragon Dragon still around?
ReplyDeleteI think if Bret stayed, he would have put Shamrock over huge eventually.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't be surprised. Bret and Ken were good friends. I think Bret helped train him, I think.
ReplyDelete"...
ReplyDeleteand Andrew Garfield totally nailed that spirit of Peter Parker and wisecracking Spider-Man."
THANK YOU. Finally a sarcastic, borderline goofy Spider Man. The car-jacker with the knife scene was perfect.
The World Is Not Enough, such a close miss. They had one of the best Bond girls ever (Sophie Marceau) and one of the two worst ever Bond girls (Denise Richards). It says a lot about your lack of talent when you can't even be seen as credible in a Bond film.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that Ken Shamrock has never shown his face on WWE programming since he left. Everyone comes back eventually, right? I don't even think he left on bad terms.
ReplyDeleteThe guy could definitely have made some money on a run with the company after he was cut by the UFC.
But did he REALLY have to have a skateboard? And do that swinging scene to that Coldplay song? Ugh.
ReplyDeleteYou must have LOVED Dan Severn in WWE!
ReplyDeleteI remember watching Dan for the first time in, I think UFC 3, and he german suplexed the SHIT out of a guy a couple of times.
ReplyDeleteThe next time I saw him, he was throwing a clothesline on D'Lo Brown. And it was the most pathetic thing I had ever seen in wrestling.
Had a very enjoyable, forgotten title match on RAW against Austin.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTjOtPZC2h4
I remember this one. Good match indeed.
ReplyDeleteI do like Severn even before he came to the WWE, but his whole run was a disaster. That's the problem when WWE basically brings in MMA guys: They have the potential to make them into a big draw, but decide they need to pay their dues and stuff incase they get an ego or something.
ReplyDeleteHe teased coming back in early 2002 to feud with Angle for a short period of time but nothing came of it.
ReplyDeleteShamrock was never as pushed as Lashley was, at least when McMahon he was feuding with the McMahons, though.
ReplyDeleteShamrock didn't just need a manager in the WWE, he needed (and still needs) someone to do his talking for him at all times. Trying to sell one of the 50 Tito/Ken fights, Ken came up with the worst promo in UFC history with his "I'll beat you into a living death" line that Tito just couldn't sell with a straight face. When I lived in San Diego they'd interview him on the news every few months and he'd stumble through every one of those also. It's amazing how he could never get the hang of it despite spending about 15-20 years around wrestling/MMA.
ReplyDeleteHe is right up there with Kane/Undertaker in the "people who aren't actually related but actually look like a real family" list. He, Frank and "Ryan" aren't related to each other in any way but they could pull it off.
Gah that's not even funny. Actually if he could've learned to debate reasonably without losing his mind over everything he could've at least been interesting, he at least had a fresh take on things.
ReplyDeleteIf Shamrock had held on for another year or so he would have been in there with Benoit, Angle, Jericho, Guerrero, Saturn, Malenko, and Taz and he'd have pretty much been able to improve through trial-by-fire, and eventually would have been a great worker. And since of all of those besides Angle, Shamrock was the "homegrown" (as far as wrestling goes) talent, he would have probably landed the biggest push. I dunno if he got fired or quit but he really missed out, I'd say.
ReplyDeleteI found Shamrock to be pretty cool in his WWF run- his matches weren't great, but it was the fuckingn Attitude Era so he was still a mid-level guy at-worst. His Frankensteiner was tits, and he did good punches and an Anklelock. He had a legit bad-ass aura (because he was an actual bad-ass), and he played well off of certain characters since you could buy him as legit crazy, despite his lack of mic skills.
ReplyDeleteDid you read his comments on Scott's WCW BatB 2000 re-rant? The guy wouldn't except on negative thing you'd say about Russo no matter how many facts you have to back it up. And he actually said something to the effect of "We need some TNA employees here for an unbiased opinion". Give me a fucking break.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he couldn't argue for shit, that was his downfall. Some of the stuff he said was crazy but some of it, while I didn't agree with it, was at least an interesting standpoint, if only he could've debated it reasonably. But instead it was always all caps "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" grandstanding. Plus once I mentioned that I liked the True Grit remake and he launched into a whole diatribe accusing me of loving Ric Flair and believing that there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and all sorts of unbalanced shit, so clearly he was nuts. But still, he had his viewpoints, and I always welcome someone with their own stance, as long as they can play along nicely with others, and he couldn't.
ReplyDeleteYes. I recall that wcw management was thrilled in 97 when they got over Goldberg as an mma bad ass and wwf didn't know how to do it with the real thing--shamrock.
ReplyDeleteNever understood why they didn't have Shamrock stay heel after turning on Bossman. It would have been a great segue to Shamrock as a corporate killing machine who culls the weak ones from the herd, plus it would have given the fans one last chance to cheer Bossman, which would have been great to see. Instead Shamrock got the face turn and Bossman got crucif-I mean, Undertaker symbol'd and joined the Ministry a week later.
ReplyDelete