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Starrcade and WarGames question

Scott,

Two part question.  Vince used Wrestle mania as a tool for national expansion and to dominate the business.  But Crockett had a year and a half lead with Starrcade.  First, why didn't Starrcade become the juggernaut of growth that Wrestlemania did.  Second, if you could go back and change the main events and locations of all of the 1980's Starrcade's what would you do differently?

Bonus question, what are your top 5 WarGames matches. 

Thanks,

Kyle 


1.  Because Crockett didn't roll the dice as big as Vince did.  He hedged his bets and did limited closed circuit locations, and then got destroyed by Survivor Series when he ventured onto PPV with it.  

2.  How about YOU tell ME what you would have done differently.  I'm fine with most of the main events, although the only major one I'd change would be Flair beating NWA World champion Lex Luger in 88 to regain the belt.  I'd probably also switch 87 to Flair defending against Jimmy Garvin because that was a red-hot feud that could have been run there instead of the Bash tour.  

And I'm not gonna do top 5s unless I write a Kindle book about them, sorry.  

Comments

  1. Not only did Crocket not roll the dice, he didn't have a movie star/wrestler like Hogan and the NWA would not have gone ahead with placing Mr. T or Cyndi Lauper all over the card. This is where Vince's drive towards mass appeal really won him over. People forget just how big a star Cyndi Lauper was around this time. Vince, although he risked it all, had the perfect storm to really jump to the mainstream with WM. Having the NY territory didn't hurt either.

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  2. Not just the celeb factor, but NWA at the time was a very southern popular promotion. Vince by then had started exposing his wrestler to the nation, so even those across the country with PPV capabilities at least may have been familiar with the wrestlers on the show. Had Crockett put Starrcade 85 on, even though the wrestling may have picked up some new fans, what then? Those who would have gambled in say, California on a pay show featuring tons of guys they may not have heard of, when the show ended, where would they have watched them? PPV for Crockett should have been step two. Step one would have needed to be national exposure.

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  3. Considering how things broke down, Bash '88 might have been better served with a WarGames main - The Fall of the Horsemen.

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  4. The hell? Crockett had Willie Nelson. WILLIE F'N NELSON!!!

    People forget just how big a star Willie Nelson was around this time. They just didn't use him as well and as often as they should have.

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  5. "You know how much condoms cost back then?"

    "Naw man, how much?"

    "I don't know, we never used 'em!"

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  6. Fwiw, the NWA was in syndication around parts of Southern California as early as 1986. That was a hell of a time, actually -- every week I'd catch Superstars, NWA, World Class and UWF every weekend.

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  7. You know what's more awesome than Starrcade & War Games combined?

    PABLO FUCKING SANDOVAL~!

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  8. You should write a Kindle book of all new material like War Games rants and an essay or two in the King Lear format. I think you have enough of an audience here where a lot of us would pay $5 for some rants and an essay or so.

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  9. This sounds really bizarre, but when I read your comment I heard it in Statler and Waldorf voice...it seems to fit, particularly if you imagine them laughing hysterically at the end...

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  10. To be fair, those early Starrcades were considered huge successes at the time. It's just that nobody envisioned wrestling the way Vince did -- for better or for worse depending on your viewpoint. Starrcade was supposed to be a supercard the likes of which had never been seen before and on that level and scale it was a smash. Nobody in the wrestling business besides Vince saw it as entertainment with top class marketing nd merchandising dressed up to look like wrestling.

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  11. My favourite WarGames (and one of my favourite matches ever) was 1992 -- Sting's Squadron against the Dangerous Alliance. Nuff said.

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  12. I don't think it was PPV so much as it was cable and syndication in those early days. They WWF was incredibly aggressive with getting their programming on local affiliates and cable was just starting to make some real inroads in tems of saturation and the WWF was able to make their prescence known very quickly with MTV, TNT and USA. You can't underestimate SNME either, the NWA didn't get their first national TV special until 1988, where the WWF was on NBC in 1985 in the Saturday Night Live timeslot -- that's a lot of non-wrestling fan eyeballs to sample the product.

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  13. Yeah there are plenty of good ones, though a few subpar and crappy ones too in 93/94/95 and 1998. The ones between 87 and 92 are the best, but 1997 is a decent little match. 1996 is all angle, but it has a great feel and atmosphere to it.

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  14. It's from Half Baked, where Dave Chappelle is selling an 8th to Willie Nelson. "You know, back in my day a dime bag actually cost a dime".

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  15. Surprised WCW never did a WarGames match for a main event at Starrcade.

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  16. 87 for me. u cant even hear jr

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  17. I completely agree with Jimmy getting the Starrcade title match. Would have given that years Starrcade a more epic feel, and more of a storyline (Precious). The Ronnie deal didn't have much of a story other than, "Look at Ronnie, he's Jimmy's brother, and he's TOUGH..."
    Even though Flair was kind of playing the role of a respected heel, it didn't make much sense for the good guy champion to be dethroned at the biggest event of the year by a heel. Then again it WAS Ric Flair.

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  18. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 5:05 AM

    I don't know, but I've never seen a War Games that was interesting. And yeah, I've seen the one were Sid kills Pillman, and the original GAB run. It's just a bunch of punching, and the bad-guys always get the one-man advantage. Gimmie a HIAC from the non PG era any day over WarGames.

    I'll check out the Sting Squadron match, see if it changes my opinion...

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  19. Really? Ellering and The Road Warriors trying to kill JJ with a spike wasn't interesting?

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  20. ' It's just a bunch of punching, and the bad-guys always get the one-man advantage. ''
    Will Winfield ever learn?

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  21. My first thought was to check Cracked and see if they did an article slamming WarGames.

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  22. "Hey girl, you hungry?"

    "Fuck you nigga!"

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  23. Surprised they didn't find a way to call one of those homers an infield fly...

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  24. Define "interesting."

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  25. Because of the botches?!

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  26. You ever watch Wargames... on WEED?

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  27. Well, if anyone would love a match full of botches...

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  28. Interesting

    adjective
    1. engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity: an interesting book.
    2. arousing a feeling of interest an interesting face.

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  29. Gold star for you.

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  30. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do see where you're coming from. It is mostly just punching, and it's kind of one of those things where if you're not invested into the angle that results in the match you're just kinda "meh". I like them (it's nice to take a break from being a pure workrate freak every once in a while), but I fully understand why someone wouldn't.

    And while I never noticed it until Fuji pointed it out, the one where Sid kills Pillman is one of the most business-exposing matches I've ever seen. They couldn't hide the blood capsules in their boots or something, instead of leaving them all over the ring? And call the spots a little louder, I think there's a little kid watching that still thinks it's real.

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  31. Let's cut Winfield a little slack. I think we ran him off for a little while. And he seemed to take the Cracked jokes in stride after the initial blow up.

    However, from the the various WarGames I've seen, there was a lot more than kicking and punching going on. I think it was more conducive for elaborate wrestling because they had more space (re: the two rings). BUT who says kicking and punching can't be fun anyway? Royal Rumbles are always fun.

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  32. I don't think 1991 gets enough respect. I enjoyed it. And didn't WWE think it was good enough to include in the Brian Pillman DVD set?

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  33. I'm just here to help.

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  34. Yeah...I mean, I can see where someone might find that interesting, but I think it's way less engaging than watching Triple H and Shawn Michaels blow each other for 30 minutes. Plus, Wargames was too punchy-kicky and full of heel beatdowns. BOOOOOOOOO

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  35. So this 30 minute BJ, are Shawn & Hunter rotating, or is it a 69?

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  36. I like the old-timey NWA War Games, but I see where you're coming from, there are dull spots when the ring starts filling up.

    But these are the 2 you might wanna check out. They're a tad different than the Horsemen formula from the 80's.

    -the Sting/Steamboat/Dustin/Nikita/Windham vs Dangerous Alliance War Games is greatness though, probably b/c of all the great technical wrestlers in that match.

    -And Flair/Sting/Luger/Double A vs nWo (Hogan, Outsiders, nWo-Sting) is tons of fun, and great storyline wrestling. Definitely WCW at its peak.

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  37. Fuji,


    I used to like the 91 war games, only had seen it once, but remember liking it a lot. Then you panned it on the blog a few months back, pointing out the botches and fake blood. Watched it again and it SUCKED! Like really, really sucked. Only good part was that Pillman & Windham started it.

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  38. That's probably because the finish was Sid almost killing Pillman with TWO botched power bombs. Watch Sid lift up a barely consious Pillman and drop him on his head for the second powerbomb--so sloppy and irresponsible, Sid should've been fired on the spot.

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  39. I don't mean this direspectfully but it almost seems like the other promoters in the early 80's were underachivers who didn't believe their product would appeal to a national market. Even though for some of those promotions it could have!

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  40. What was the deal with Starcade 89? Based on Scott's rant about 1989 NWA and seeing the big Flair matches from that year, this was a hot year for the NWA with two incredible feuds (Flair/Steamboat & Flair/Funk), and yet for the biggest show of the year they do two one night round robin tournaments of no consequence? Can anyone explain their motives to me. I was only 5 at the time, but hindsight says Starcade of that year should've either been the Flair/Funk I Quit match, or Flair vs Sting with a proper build. It's so bizarre to me NWA really seemed to be on a roll, then the storytelling just stops until 1990 when the Horsemen break Sting's leg. What was the main storyline between Flair beating Funk once and forall, and Flair going heel?

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  41. The HHH/Michaels Best of 10,746 series was a feud of Shakespearean depth, and we're worse off for it ending.

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  42. Regardless of spot-calling and Sid Bombs, the match was and is my favourite War Games. If I loved matches because of botches (which er, I do I guess) I'd watch War Games 1998.

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  43. "NWA didn't get their first national TV special until 1988"

    Do you mean Clash of the Champions? Or did NWA have some network TV special I've never heard about?

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  44. Watch it again.

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  45. Its not all catchphrases and bad jokes from me. I know a wee bit about some wrestling. And wargames 91 is a template on how to expose wrestling and a bad match to boot.

    im sure everyone who has seen that match has seen it when they were yoinger and had the rose tinted glasses on. Cuz once you watch it in SMARKVISION(tm) it goes from a **** to a ** quickly.

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  46. I assume rotating. it might be different for man on man but I don't think 30 minute blow jobs exist in real life. Maybe in high school these days.

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  47. I'm thinking a 15/15 switch so they can maintain eye contact.

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  48. It was a completely story-driven show to do a passing of the torch to the next generation of big stars: Sting wins the singles, Steiners give a good showing in the tag tourney. If Sting hadn't blown out his knee at the February Clash, he would have probably been crowned champ a lot sooner, riding the momentum of the angle that started at Starrcade.

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  49. My guess was they had to properly annoint sting as the guy so with him winning the ironman and being kicked out the tourney that was the show amd the next ppv would have been him gettin the strap but he tore his knee up...

    But to answer i think they needed a major show to annoint sting as the next guy.

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  50. But what was the story exactly? Like what was the premise of the tournaments, or how were they built up? And also who exactly were Flair & Sting feuding with at the time b/c they were both faces.

    It just seems weird to me, given NWA's "story" for the year you'd think Starcade would either be Sting taking the strap from Flair, leading to a Flair heel turn. Or, Sting gets screwed by Flair due to heel turn. Not face/face match in the finals of meaningless tournament, won by Sting to build him to a world title win later on in 90

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  51. "the match beyond" are like 5-7 minutes tops. The main part of the story of the match is the heels outnumbering the faces and the faces fighting from underneath.

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  52. Yeah could be the case. I think a lot of them were very comfortable with their arrangements. I think they were probably just cautious though, wrestling probably would've gone national anyway (to a smaller extent) once cable TV got big enough -- Vince beat everyone to the marketplace.

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  53. For the people who dont like wargames fine and dandy... Not ur cup of java... But its s fucking cage match. What do u expect them to do in a cage match besides punch and kick?! who goes for an german suplex in a cage match? i mean come on.

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  54. That's certainly the worst one (I refuse to count the Russo one as an official Wargames).

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  55. You're right. I only think the older ones drag is b/c of the camera work. It usually just looks cluttered in there. You take those matches from the late 80's move for move, add in today's camera work--no more petty gripes.

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  56. i get it.


    all they had was wide hard camera and the roamin cameras then.


    now... phew fagetaboutit

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  57. ** is about where I'd place it

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  58. It wasn't it was War Garmes 2K. And it had capture the flag rules instead of surrender. Different type of gimmick match says I

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  59. Yeah, but it was on the Wargames DVD or 24/7 special or whatever it was that Scott ranted on. So WWE counts it.

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  60. yeah, but they're stupid.

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  61. Yes. Yes they are.

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  62. I read an article on yahoo news this morning about why people fail. One reason is they're afraid of failure, ie: weary of spending money needed for greater success. I think a lot of these promoters fit into that category.

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  63. Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit?

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  64. YankeesHoganTripleHFanOctober 25, 2012 at 1:42 PM

    Given their history inside Hell in a Cell can you imagine what Triple H, Undertaker, Michaels, Foley, Batista and Lesner could have done if they were all in the same War Games match?

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  65. H, Undertaker, & Michaels would have group hugged

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  66. 1995 was really bad too. 1996 is terrible just for Tony Schiavone's commentary.

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  67. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 2:30 PM

    Honestly, I think it was because of all the build up. I didn't start watching wrestling until 1995, and I was a WWE man through and through. So I never bothered watching old WCW until I got much older, and because of that I didn't see a War Games until 2009. At this point all I ever heard was how they're 5 star, absolute classic matches. Hell, even Scott said the Pillman one is a match he'd take to a desert island. So when I saw it, it was only about ***1/4. I was so let down.

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  68. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll give'em a look.

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  69. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM

    They don't. Which is why I was very hesitant to speak out against Wargames.

    However, I did find an article that gave me a great idea! So tune in to my website next week for my latest article, Top 5 Crazy Fan Ideas That Actually Make Movies Better! It's a Caliber Winfield original, baby!

    Also, no longer is it Str8 Gangster, No Chaser, but it's now called Broken! And I had that idea way before Cracked ever came around, so, again, a CW original, baby!

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  70. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM

    They seriously used blood capsules? That's a real thing? I knew the whole 'blood from the mouth' ordeal was a result of that, but other than that, really? I always thought that was something that people who hated pro-wrestling just made up.

    And yeah, I can totally dig taking a break from work-rate. All the HIAC matches on the 3-disc DVD are mostly **** and above, and those are total garbage wrestling matches that I lap up with glee.

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  71. "Medium Sexy" Caliber WinfieldOctober 25, 2012 at 2:40 PM

    There are plenty of cage matches that go beyond punch-kick. And besides, there are ones that are just punch-kick that are great. Yet I find just about every WarGames in history exactly the same. After the initial 4 people in, there's too many people in the ring, with too much going on to really focus on anything.

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  72. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTMJ803n5ps You can see them lying all over the canvas. This is actually the only match I've ever seen with blood capsules, though I'm sure there's others.

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  73. Did Scott 2012 Scott Says that match yet?


    Cuz thats one up for review IMO. Just for sheer hilarity

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  74. Moreso than not believing in their product was an inability to suffer a significant financial loss if a national pay per view broadcast didn't succeed. You actually had to rent the satellite time to broadcast on a national level (and go out of pocket to do so) - if there were a disastrous result, the financial implications on a smaller promotion (not JCP, so much, but potentially World Class or Mid South, for example) could be immense.

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  75. Just think of baseball, and you'll be fine

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  76. I liked 96. It had Flair hit the ring & kick every heel in the nuts multiple times. I'm not fan of Shiavone, but 96 was kinda his year b/c he was JCP/NWA/WCW through & through so his hatred of the nWo felt very real. "Hulk Hogan you can go to hell...straight to hell." is Tony's "BY GAWD IT'S AUSTIN AND TYSON"

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  77. See JCP should've rolled the dice instead of dipping the big toe in with Starrcade 83

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  78. Ron Garvin on his own wasn't big enough to main event Starrcade without being champion going in.



    I wouldn't have changed the main event of Starrcade 87, I would have changed the location. You put that same card in Charlotte, and the crowd and responses are MUCH better.

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  79. The low roof really limited War Games more than the mere fact of it being in a cage. But that was by design. War Games was about BRUTALITY, not Holy Shit Spots.

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  80. They had a national special in February 1986, even before Clash of the Champions!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcDGiJPNQeA


    Now THAT'S how you use Willie Nelson!

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