---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Kerry"
> Found this on ESPN, and knowing your love for UFC, just wanted your take on the various "storylines" in the article. Also, TANK ABBOTT wrote a book?
>
> (Also, I'm pretty sure someone's sent you this/you've already seen it by now. I'm still curious.)
>
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=eightmenout
You were the first one actually. Interesting read! On a totally unrelated slant, I'm also currently engrossed by Sean Howe's book about Marvel Comics, which somehow makes you feel even WORSE for Jack Kirby and Jerry Siegel.
I feel so bad for people like Kirby cuz he was THE MAN at marvel. Stan Lee was all glitz while Kirby (and Ditko) were the workhorses putting the pencils to the paper.
ReplyDeleteI couldnt even bring myself to meet Stan at MegaCon in Florida when he was the guest of honor after reading about how he basically erased Ditko and to a lesser extent Kirby from existence.
Same goes for Goeff Johns.
Quick Story: Johns is at MegaCon and Im a fan of his Green Lantern, but Im not a fanboy over everything he does, to me he is a one trick pony. But he is there so I thought Id meet him at least.
LINE WAS LONG AS SHIT WITH FANBOYS, just drooling to meet their hero. Im off to the side cuz now i just wanna say whats up and keep it moving. His agent (some homely looking chick) tells me to get in line if "you wanna meet Geoff"
I say "who?"
"Geoff Johns, the writer for Green Lantern, Superman and basically all the DC comic hits."
"I have no clue who that is. I only read Marvel."
Geoff Johns, who was in earshot, looks me up and down from the booth and scoffs.
Fuck Geoff Johns. Im not a dick rider.
Stan seems like an up and up guy, who was also fucked on rights for certain books. Now, Stan may be the glitz, but c'mon, it's much harder to create awesome characters & stories than it is to draw them. Not that I'm dismissing Kirby, or Ditko.
ReplyDeleteAs for Siegel, Scott, I thought in the 70's all the shit was finally ironed out with royalties for Superman and such?
Its a mesh between good writing and good art.
ReplyDeleteImage books sold like hotcakes when it first started up but they were crappy as shit writing wise.
Cool story bro.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. So sick of Internet jackasses putting Stan on blast. Blame the publishers, blame him for some of his business practices, fine. But don't act like he did nothing.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Geoff Johns owns. And is one of the nicest guys in comics.
Adorable. Do you come in heterosexual?
ReplyDeleteI won't stick up for Image outside of Spawn. Spawn looked fantastic, and was written very well. Of course, once Todd handed over the duties to Greg, it all went to shit.
ReplyDeleteThat got an up-vote from me.
ReplyDeleteIf you can find it, Jake Rossen also wrote an outstanding piece on the anniversary of the PRIDE Grand Prix a fw years ago. To this day, it's the best retrospective feature on MMA I've ever read.
ReplyDeletethis gay gets it.
ReplyDeleteNot entirely. Ditko is more responsible for Spider-Man than Stan ever was.
ReplyDeleteStan Lee the writer will get all the kudos in the world from me. If it wasnt for his foundations I wouldnt be into comics.
Stan Lee the brand is what i have a problem with. He went on for years not acknowledging Ditko once he left Marvel and Kirby once he left Marvel and pretty much spun it like he was responsible for all things good at Marvel.
My opinion, Johns did ok with JSA/Titans His Flash and Green Lantern is the stuff of legend, but everything after that has been pretty meh.
ReplyDeleteFlashpoint
Superman
Avengers
All meh.
OK, now that was actually funny.
ReplyDeleteI come in heterosexual all the time... or at least when the wife doesn't have that damned recurring headache...
ReplyDeleteHe wrote Avengers before GL.
ReplyDeleteI loved his Superman stuff -- Secret Origin and especially Brainiac.
Flashpoint was ... not pleasant. But his Aquaman is great, and of course GL and Flash are/were amazing. I can't get into Hawkman.
I will also say Justice League has been really disappointing.
I agree, but I can't hate on the dude for marketing himself. It was dog eat dog back then, and Stan was one of the few creators who was savvy enough to protect himself.
ReplyDeleteJack's the guy I feel the worst for in comics. Just got some raw deals along the way, and he wasn't a good negotiator.
Self-Love is perfectly acceptable behavior.
ReplyDeleteWe got us a real badass right here!
ReplyDeleteErrybody love me!!! You aint fucking wit my DOUGIE!
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly do you go by saying that Ditko was more responsible for spiderman than Stan? Not even mentioning that the book was ten times better with romita. And Ditko used the spiderman run to get jobs for years with his inferior characters.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for Jack, he died ten years too early. He would have been rolling in dough once the new movies started coming out. He'd've been exec producer too.
ReplyDeleteMost definitely Romita Sr was better than Ditko, but the initial layings of the character was more Ditko than Stan. Ditko basically said Spider-Man was him and they clashed several times on the character and where he was going.
ReplyDeleteTsk tsk #1 and the wizard article on the guy who chronicled Ditko.
So Ditko is more responsible because he says he was? Bet you don't know that Kirby used to claim that he was actually responsible for creating spiderman but they gave it to Ditko because he was already doing too many books? It's completely untrue but he claimed it.
ReplyDeleteFor a guy to leave one of the hottest books and never go back is pretty telling to me. Regardless of his objectivism, money talks and he never has wanted the royalties just the credit.
ReplyDeleteWhen Aquaman has been treated so poorly since forever... its not hard to be awesome. (Peter David excluded)
ReplyDeleteUr right about the Avengers run, but it still did suck ass.
Dude, he never went back because he's fucking crazy.
ReplyDeleteMeh... I can go with that as well...
ReplyDeleteHe must be a fucking loon cuz he left BILLIONS... on the table.
Considering he's one of two writers (maybe three if Busiek's stuff was actually good) to do a good job writing the character, I'd say it's really difficult to be awesome.
ReplyDeletei think its more of the aquaman punchline and writers not giving a crap.
ReplyDeletei mean... its fucking aquaman. you put johns on it and its a op 10 book but its still fucking aquaman.
johns did the first arc of booster gold and people jacked their collective dick off to it... and once he left sales plummeted... because its still fucking booster gold.
now im not saying you cant rehab a character cuz morrison wrote the shit out of animal man (and i hate the guy) but you have to care. Johns to me just wants to play in the sandbox for a while, OR gets a call from Didio to say the fanboys want booster, crap out some stories and hope sles stay up.
you can see hat he really cares about flash and GL cuz those books he grew up on... and those books have been his longest tenured and ofc the strongest.
Since no one else is going to comment on the most shocking thing said here, I will.
ReplyDeleteTank Abbott wrote a book?
TANK ABBOTT CAN READ?
(Whatever happened to him? WCW collapsed and he vanished. Surprised Vince didn't sign him and job him to someone just to be a dick.)
He should have been paid BILLIONS over his lifetime.
ReplyDeleteSee, I'm of the mind that regardless of character, it's the work that matters -- and even if he leaves Aquaman soon (which he will), it doesn't erase how good The Trench was.
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame about Booster's sales, 'cause I was still digging it with Jurgens writing. Ah well.
To a certain extent, im with you... but again its fucking aquaman...
ReplyDeleteIts kinda like lifelong jobber becomes a champion in wrestling, you cant wash that stink off just with a new coat of paint or a superstar writer... its still SD Jones...
Some characters suck ass. To me, Aquaman is the definitive "always will suck ass" character.
Two word response to that: Kevin Steen. He and Generico were a comedy team in the beginning, and now his pudgy ass is ROH world champ. Push a guy properly and fans will buy him as a world beater. There was a show on pay cable about an aspiring actor, they had him trying to get a starring role in an Aquaman movie, and they framed that part as his career maker. Write Aquaman as a badass, have him do and say badass things, have him face and conquer badass villains and DC fans WILL accept him as a badass.
ReplyDeleteRemember when Tank Abbott was on "Friends"? Good times!
ReplyDeleteThe only reason Fat Steen is champ is because there is no one left in ROH... You can cite David McKickflip and Jobber Jones as world title contenders but im not in that bubble... I have no clue who is who in ROH.
ReplyDeleteThe talent went to New York. ROH is in AWA circa 89.
I guess if Scott ends every topic with "comic books" that's all the mass will talk about.
ReplyDeleteThe article is great and gives a nice view into the early days of what was essentially human cockfighting.
It's more like Tank spent a day punching his keyboard into submission, printed out the results, and published it as is.
ReplyDelete''Its kinda like lifelong jobber becomes a champion in wrestling, you cant wash that stink off just with a new coat of paint or a superstar writer... its still SD Jones...''
ReplyDeleteMark Henry.
Man alive. Tank Abbot.
ReplyDeleteHis stuff during 2000 in WCW is the crap dreams are made of. It's unbeliveable how bad his matches are. There are no pins, he simply hits people, then he just leaves and that makes him the winner.
The worst is the Leather Jacket on a Pole Match, that is the worst wrestling match in North American history. Although, it is perversely entertaining.
Tank Abbot vs Big Al
http://wcwin2000.wordpress.com/2012/03/19/superbrawl-2000-february-20th-2000/
Like the article pointed out, David Abbott was actually pretty self aware and somewhat intelligent. Tank Abbott was a character he played to get money and attention. The guy's never getting into Mensa or anything but he played the game pretty well.
ReplyDeleteDude, if you didn't laugh at Tank's WCW character and promos, I don't know what to say. Well, at least when he hooked up with 3 Count.
ReplyDelete...or ROH circa '04 after the Feinstein debacle when all that was left was an unknown CM Punk and a bunch of untested guys no one had heard of to that point.
ReplyDeleteBut I do agree on Fat Steen; he's fat.
Henry wasnt a lifelong jobber.
ReplyDeleteAgain... Again... He has been booked strongly since the ECW title reign... It wasnt overnight.
Just because it took him beating Orton clean as a sheet to finally realize that Henry was awesome and has been quite awesome for A WHILE isnt my problem.
That pic of Stacy playing tug of war with whoever that other hot chick was was worth the click on it's own.
ReplyDeleteWhat's funny is that he put on a lot of the weight pretty recently. If you watch the hype video for the match on Sunday (it's on Youtube) you can see he was significantly smaller even a year or 2 ago. Not that he was skinny before or anything...
ReplyDeleteHey Adam I asked this same question to Ryan Murphy but you might also be able to give me an answer.
ReplyDelete100% off topic but I wanted to ask you a question as the resident ROH
expert. On the 411 fact or fiction article this week the last question
was is El Generico the best wrestler in the WORLD. Did I miss something?
I fully admit I've only seen his match against Brent Albright and a
couple tag teams with him and Steen vs the briscoes and winning the
title against some other guys. So I don't really know. Is he seriously
that good? Did I miss something? He's arguably the best worker in the
world? I always thought he was good I suppose, definitely can sell/work
underdog but I can think of 15 guys better than him IMO. What did I
miss?
Regardless of how you felt about Stan, it still doesn't change the fact that it's STAN FUCKING LEE.
ReplyDeleteTrust me my inner geek was like Holy shit... its the man... but at the same time, Im not a dick eater... so i had to check myself.
ReplyDeleteThats no disrespect to those eat dick, its just not me.
Like If I were to meet Scott Keith somewhere, In my head id be like holy shitsnacks its the guy responsible for the way i view wrestling as an adult, but at the same time, imma be like whats up. Cuz Im not a dick rider.
You don't eat or ride dick? You'd be the worst gay ever.
ReplyDelete^I KNOW RIGHT!
ReplyDeleteI saw the same article, done by 2 people who come right out and say they don't even watch ROH. Fucking 411... But to answer your question, no, he's not even the best wrestler in ROH. He's fun to watch, and is probably the most over guy on the indy circuit right now, mainly because he wrestles in about a dozen promotions. But to even put him in the same league with Bryan, Punk, Daniels, or Styles is insane.
ReplyDeleteMMA is dying.
ReplyDeleteCan you explain why Steen being fat makes him bad?
ReplyDeleteI'm not looking to start a Caliber/Cracked style feud, just curious.
You wanna goto war with me Botchamania!?
ReplyDeleteSeriously though Im not Kevin Steen hater. Im trolling the ROHbots to be honest. Steen can work... again im not gonna blow my load over the guy, cuz i dont think he is special. He can work. If Joe/Aries/Bryan/Punk were there would he sniff the main event?
I dont think so.
He's Steve Corino/JUstin Credible in ECW circa 2000. The Real stars are gone. The roster has been pillaged and pilfered... Thats who is left.
Kevin Steen.
A good hand. Put him in any other era he is a JTTS.
Im knocking the guy, Im just not seeing it. Although his moveset is SICK AS FUCK. He just doesnt scream "STAR"
Take Roman Reigns. Green as goose shit. Looks like a star.
Dean Ambrose. Solid in the ring. Talks his ass off. Star.
Seth Rollins... Can work his ass off. Sounds like a chick. Comes off like CM Punk-lite. Not a star.
My deal with Steen is that he looks like your uncle. Just a normal guy. But then he's booked as the most VIOLENT EVILEST BADASS EVER KILL STEEN KILL! I just don't buy it.
ReplyDeleteBill Finger says "hi"
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY!
ReplyDeletePlus hes French-Canadian. What badass you know is French-Canadian?
Once they work out how to max out the revenue streams from network TV and guys like Rory and Jonny Bones become genuine mainstream stars who you can watch for free the UFC will establish itself as a pretty significant part of the sports landscape.
ReplyDeleteThe changeover from the PPV era to free TV will take awhile so it's probably to late for GSP and Silva. But like the NBA, NFL etc they won't need that PPV revenue to make billions if they can get enough from the network deals and advertising/sponsorships that come with increased eyeballs
A high school buddy of mine forwarded me this article and I am so glad he did. I have since forwarded it on to other friends. I love articles like this and one of the best reads I've had in a long time.
ReplyDeleteDitko might have played a role in creating Spider-Man but without Lee, Spidey would have been like Ant Man or Doctor Strange; third string and not a big time character.
ReplyDeleteFor what it's worth, a lot of Ditko's ideas were bullshit. The only good one he had was making Green Goblin be a costumed villan (Lee wanted him to be an actual demon) and even then, mainly walked off because Lee wanted to reveal GG as Norman Osborn as opposed to some random no name guy....
ReplyDeleteSpawn was always shit; Savage Dragon was always the superior book....
ReplyDeleteSeeing Ditko or Kirby by their lonesome lets you know how much Stan did, same as Stan by his lonesome. All were better when ALLIED with a true genius, Ditko especially (he was a nutbar who had to be reined in constantly- think Vince Russo).
ReplyDeleteNope. MMA is a fad. Like poker was. Been in decline for a while now.
ReplyDeleteYou're the guy who said a comic book writer's child dying was great because of what he did to a stupid comic book. I want you to sky-dive naked and land with a car antenna going up your dick. While remaining completely conscious the entire time.
ReplyDeleteHeh, the other chick is Stacy.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's why I said North American. I believe the Abdullah match took place in Cuba, didn't it?
THE MOUNTIE.
ReplyDeleteGeraint Wyn-Davies (but only when he played Nick Knight on "Forever Knight", which is merely one of the greatest TV shows of all time).
ReplyDeleteGSP
ReplyDeletePuerto Rico I think, which I guess is not North America.
ReplyDelete