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Friday, April 26, 2013

Simple Bret question

Hey Scott,

Knuckleberry Pinn from the blog here. I just have a specific question about Bret that surprisingly doesn't involve politics or Montreal.

Bret's pinfall covers involved him usually laying across the shoulders, but on many occasions, the commentators (especially Gorilla Monsoon) would talk about how nonchalant and uncharacteristic of Bret this was. Was there never any communication where one party could say to the other "your covers are coming across as lame, can you hook the leg?", or "this is how I've been taught to pin a guy, mind changing the commentary up?"

Thanks for the insight, and keep up all the great work.

That is a frighteningly specific question.  

OK, here's the deal with pinfalls, because Lance Storm was raging about the subject a few months ago.  Basically guys develop their own style from training onwards, and someone like Lance always tries to instill a sense of "realness" by getting his trainees to actually attempt to hold the shoulders down.  Lance made it sound like he was kind of beating his head against the wall trying to get people to change, so it's probably something very ingrained.  I too have noticed that Bret is pretty lax in his covers.   There is actually a psychology about it, in that you start with a simple press of the shoulders, and then move onto hooking the leg if that doesn't work, and then both legs, which gives you three pin attempts and makes it seem like a struggle.  

So there's your wacky discussion for the night.  

30 comments:

  1. Knuckleberry PinnApril 26, 2013 at 7:40 PM

    Thanks Scott.

    And as a note on how awesome Mr. Keith is, I emailed this question this morning, post honey Shreddies / Hbk vs Bret 94

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  2. I always find it weird when guys who use KTFO finishers hook the leg. Mark Henry should never hook a leg after the WSS, and Big Show certainly shouldn't after KO punches.

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  3. I look at like Bret knew he wasn't getting a pinfall off whatever move it was and was just making the guy work. /kayfab

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  4. I think a "technique" guy like Lance is an ideal teacher, as guys can take his basics and turn them into whatever they need. Sometimes a stickler is the best coach.

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  5. I went to a wrestling convention in Rockville, MD (near DC) in 2006 and this exact question was brought up to Bret during a Q&A session with him and Neidhart. Bret's interoperation of it is that having his full weight on an opponent's chest & shoulders is better strategy than hooking the leg for leverage. Everyone has different styles and that's how he follows his, I guess.

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  6. My main problem with Storm is a problem I have with many other forms of entertainment.

    Why do assume characters (and that's what wrestlers are) are reasonable, logical or rational?

    Let me explain...why, in the highly emotional context of a match, do we expect that a wrestler will do the proper thing? I think that a wrestler working different body parts over the course of a match due to their impatience and lack of killer instinct would be fantastic. Too often is the difference between main-eventers and curtain-jerkers portrayed as the main-eventers being just better, and not the rookies being inexperienced and still growing in skill.

    Yes, wrestlers should know all of Storm's rules, but they shouldn't follow all of them. Mistakes are usually more interesting than success. And when you want to give a wrestler a ruthless technician type gimmick...it'll actually mean something because (and this is very important) nobody else is doing it!


    If everybody is as technical as Storm teaches you to be, you'll get what Storm spoke against, generic wrestlers that are all the same.


    And differences shouldn't stop at ring-gear and entrance music and promo styles, unique-ness should extend throughout every facet of a wrestlers work, from their posture to the way they lock up to the way they sell or bump or deliver a dropkick.

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  7. If I remember correctly, William Regal was really into the theory behind a pinfall. I'm sure he's brought it up during his commentary stints.

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  8. Big Show shouldn't do KO punches because it's the worst finishing move in wrestling history. The FIRST THING wrestling fans have to suspend disbelief about is punching. That's why even as a kid I never thought wrestling was "real" because I posed the question "how does getting bodyslammed hurt more than being punched in the face 10 times in a row?" So for him to do a punch for a finisher is a fucking joke. Further proof of why Big Show is big and that's it. Marginal talent..and obviously no creativity.

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  9. I never liked Goldberg's pins, as he would just half-assedly hook the guy's leg after the Jackhammer. The standard, as usual, is Randy Savage, as he would DIVE for pinfalls, so you knew how badly he wanted to win.

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  10. Yup. I was watching a shoot with Fit Finlay where he said that when he helping to train guys, he would teach them all different things so everybody wasn't doing the same moves in the ring.

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  11. I always took them as Bret just being super cocky even as a face. Bret was kind of a dick like that. For example he would never tag in Owen Hart during tag team matches.

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  12. I always viewed hooking the leg after a knockout move as a smart-ass move by the heel. He's knows the knocked out guy isn't kicking out, he's just hooking the leg to be a dick.

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  13. Well said. I touched on it there and I've mentioned it before, but I know on a few occasions Storm has said that the way to be a great worker is to suggest lots of spots that your opponent can do to you and to offer bumps that you're willing to take without necessarily expecting the same from your opponent (did Storm have any moves in his arsenal that required a bump from his opponent, besides the superkick and the diving spinkick, which even then were simple back bumps? I don't recall any). I'm sure Lance's opponents loved him for this but it didn't do Lance a lot of favors in his career. Honestly following Lance's career path is a ticket to being a "hand that makes others look good but never being a star on your own.

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  14. He is the wrestling equivalent of one of those G3 style guitarists like
    Joe Satriani that can play amazing and has great technique but never has
    a good song or anything to make them stand out.



    Downvoted for this. Satriani has plenty good songs.

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  15. Yeah yeah yeah. I'm sure if I said Steve Vai or Eric Johnson or Yngwie Malmsteen someone would have still said the same. There's a reason those guys never became classic rock gods. But the blog's resident Rush fanatic would be the one to cry foul.

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  16. Steve Vai is the best of the bunch. He crafts music from all aspects of the guitar. He didn't get the Zappa gig by being a slouch.


    I'll be the 1st to admit that when it comes to rhythm stuff, Satriani is actually pretty basic and his talent is far more weighted in terms of soloing. So in that sense he's pretty one-sided. That doesn't mean his songs aren't good, though. I'm just hearing something different than you're hearing.


    Not familiar enough with Johnson to really comment, but by all accounts he's more in line with Vai in terms of being a "complete" guitarist.


    Bash Yngwie all you want; he's a one-trick pony. I never got into him.


    Go take copious amounts of your drugs or something.

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  17. That is problematic. But probably more reasonable when it comes to job security.


    I mean, you need a lot more "good hands" then you need "superstars".

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  18. I respect all their talent but its in a very constricted field. Technically virtuous but not necessarily fun by most peoples standards; kinda like Lance Storm. I don't dislike any of them just like I don't dislike Storm, I just see them for what they are.

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  19. Quote Unquote SirApril 27, 2013 at 5:30 PM

    I noticed that Bret would hold down another wrestler's arm when going for a pin, so if anything, I thought he actually exerted MORE force in a pin than most wrestlers.

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  20. Agreed. And it's good when a guy can recognize that he's not a "superstar" and can embrace the "good hand" role. Storm was never going to be the Rock or Hogan or Austin, so nothing wrong with being a really good worker for a lengthy career.

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  21. I always took that as an extension of Goldberg's finisher being "devastating". He hits the move, it's all over, sort of deal

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  22. Makes sense. I'd say 220+ pounds pushing someones shoulders down would make a pin more likely than just hooking a leg.

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  23. Plenty of wrestlers seem perfectly happy with that.


    I mean, there's tons of guys whose only goal as a wrestler was to wrestle in Japan.

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  24. ...did you just say Bret weighed more than 220 pounds?

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  25. Case in point, Lance Storm protege Dolph Ziggler.

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  26. I guess in a kayfabe sense that is true.

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