Scott,
I thought this would be neat for you to do. I'll provide a list of current WWE wrestlers and you tell us how far you see them going. Your choices are either 1. Hall of Famer, 2. WWE Champion, 3. World Heavyweight Champion, 4. Midcarder for life, or 5. BUST!
Daniel Bryan -
WWE champion by Summerslam, probably Hall of Famer.
Antonio Cesaro -
World champion, eventually.
Dean Ambrose -
Hall of Famer.
Roman Reigns -
WWE champion. He's gonna be big, but not much past a quick reign.
Seth Rollins -
Probably midcarder, maybe with a quick reign as World champ.
Bray Wyatt -
Hard to call. Probably won't be a singles champion, so midcarder.
Kassius Ohno -
BUST. He's gonna get frustrated and leave.
Big E. Langston -
Midcarder.
Bo Dallas -
BUST.
Curtis Axel -
Midcarder. They've already given up on the main event push.
Adrian Neville (PAC) -
Never seen him yet.
Fandango -
Midcarder.
Thanks and keep up the stellar work!
Why is Chris Hero still in NXT? They could do worse than reunite the Kings of Wrestling. Of course they'd have to change the name.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think they've given up on Curtis Axel already! He's still with Heyman, and he's getting the IC belt. I still think he has a chance.
ReplyDeleteI won't get into a whole long "thing", but I do think that many of us so-called "smarks" tend to fall into the trap of forgetting that gimmicks are temporary, and base our opinion of a performer too heavily on their character or position on the card.
ReplyDeleteTake Fandango, for instance. He's young, in shape, reasonably good in the ring, good on the mic, throws himself head-first into a gimmick, seems like a good guy in real life, handled himself exceptionally well in media appearances... by all objective criteria, there's really no reason that he couldn't be a World Champion, maybe even a hall-of-famer. But, because he's CURRENTLY basically just Disco Inferno, we all think he's a midcarder with a short shelf-life.
Hell, just look at how many of us deride, say, JTG, or Primo, or any other guy that's lucky to just stand in the background of someone else's segment... we criticize "casual" fans for liking those that the company pushes, but we can be just as guilty of being manipulated by the company, especially when it comes to automatically assuming that most of the guys not on TV must just simply suck. I think a guy like Hunico could be a decent star/attraction; he even demonstrated it when he was playing Sin Cara, having better matches and connecting with the audience better than the "real" Sin Cara did. But, nope, he's just the generic thug that rides a bike and is lucky to get on "Main Event".
Not sure where I was going with that. I guess I just feel that pretty much anybody could have a decent career if given a chance.
Except for Curtis Axel. He sucks.
I agree with all this except I think Axel will probably get a short WHC reign.
ReplyDeleteCurtis Axel has already fallen victim to usual WWE stop/start push. Main eventing against HHH and John Cena to the IC title with the Miz in only 3 weeks. Although, I think that is a new record for the fastest drop off ever, even for the WWE!
ReplyDeleteWhat leads you to believe he's reasonably good in the ring? Everything I've seen leads me to believe the guy is awful. Great personality, definitely. But boring worker.
ReplyDeleteThe Gods of Sports Entertainment?
ReplyDeleteThat's actually not a bad name. Though they'll probably have to stay away from "God" lest they offend someone.
ReplyDeleteI can see Big E being a WHC holder in the future. He's like a better Bobby Lashley (or what Monty Brown could have been)
ReplyDeleteSquared Circle Deities!
ReplyDeleteI think if everything goes to plan, Big E is being pushed to the moon. There's a difference between *forcing* a push and a push being *forced*. (See: John Cena vs. Randy Orton on their respective ways up the card). The guys they want to go up top are going up top no matter how long it takes and how much they have to do.
ReplyDeleteSomeone like Ambrose is going to have to be like Bryan, they're gonna have to force it themselves.
If you give me that list, out of all of them (DB really shouldn't be included because he's already achieved one of the statuses already)... Big E is the one that will be given the most rope.
This needs a 6th tier: Future TNA World Champion.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan -
ReplyDeleteAs much as I want him to succeed, until Vince croaks I don't see the company getting fully behind him. Especially with Cena still there. Now post Vince definitely.
Antonio Cesaro -
This is hard to tell. He has been cut before. I don't know. He could get frustrated and go back to the indies as well.
Dean Ambrose -
Roddy Piper.
Roman Reigns -
He is the heir apparent. Especially once he cuts his hair.
Seth Rollins -
Odd man out of the Shield, but easily the best worker. midcarder
Bray Wyatt -
Easy to call. the gimmick isn't a main event. it very limiting. As much as I love it, he is bottom of the top/top of the bottom (uper mid card)
Kassius Ohno -
He will get cut.
Big E. Langston -
Too small. Too black. Midcard
Bo Dallas -
If they dont do Dirty Dave Delany's fantasy booking with him, I see a cut.
Curtis Axel -
BUST.
Adrian Neville (PAC) -
If he can dodge injuries, new high flying sensation. Midcard. He needs to be Sin Cara.
Fandango -
Midcarder.
Bo Dallas only works as a face in the 1980's.
ReplyDeleteFandango, aka Johnny Curtis, has been around forever and likely won't go much higher. No one is "Fandagoing" anymore.
Rollins ceiling is Dolph, someone who bumps like a maniac and is respected by the fans but doesn't have enough to become a big star.
Big E needs to turn face ASAP. He is much better in that role.
Curt Axel is not going to become a star. An IC title run is his best shot.
Adrian Neville can fly with the best of them but if they won't let him do that here, then he won't go too far.
There's one guy I think should be added to this list because I think he could end anywhere up on the spectrum (except for being an outright bust) depending on what they do with him, and that's Damien Sandow. As I mentioned elsewhere, if they give him a chance out of nowhere like they did JBL in 2004, I could totally see him catching fire as a main event heel.
ReplyDeleteThe Emperors of Sports Entertainment!
ReplyDeleteAntonio Cesaro Czar of the Canvas
ReplyDeleteKassius Ohno Monarch of the Mat
Cody Rhodes should be on there as well. I'm going to hold out misguided hope that he can be something more than midcard cannon fodder.
ReplyDeleteI Fandango movie tickets all the time.
ReplyDeletewell damn brah that could be anyone even titlyn
ReplyDeletenah remember god did the job at that ppv when he teamed with hbk, he did the time honored tradition for vince so he's cool with it
ReplyDeleteKoko B. Ware is a Hall of Famer, so unless anybody on this list murders people, you probably wouldn't be wrong predicting the HoF for all of them.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, Ambrose, Reigns, and Bryan will be all time greats.
I think Seth Rollins will end up as a babyface who is embraced by the same fat 14 year-old girls who make up the bulk of Jeff and Matt Hardy's fanbase.
ReplyDelete*Copies thread into Word. Saves as, for future reference.*
ReplyDeleteI doubt Axel will get the IC belt on Sunday. I see Miz winning it and then dropping it to Fandango when he returns from his injury.
ReplyDeleteEven more so as the obesity epidemic continues to explode.
ReplyDeleteFat 14 year old girls? And Smarks wonder why Hardee's is sponsoring matches,,,,
ReplyDeleteThe quickest way to get Ohno over is to bring him in as the fourth member of the Shield, and I hope that's what they do. All of the Shield has huge upsides, I think they will all be either world heavyweight champions or WWE champions in the future. Big E has potential, but, like Axel, his mic abilities need a lot of work. Fandango seems like just a novelty to me the gimmick is purely built for the midcard. I haven't really seen much of Wyatt, Dallas, or Neville yet, but I think just from seeing the vignettes that the Wyatt gimmick has potential. Caesaro has huge potential, but he needs to find a workable serious gimmick quick. Daniel Bryan is the new Bret Hart, smaller guy, not Vince's favored look, but gets over anyway and runs with it. The question is, will Cena do the right thing and take steps to help Bryan to become cemented into a top spot by, if not fully then at least partially passing the torch to him, or will he go the Hogan route, like Hogan did with Bret Hart, and refuse to put him over?
ReplyDeleteAnswer: All will have a Word/WWE title run due to MITB and WWE's inability to think outside of "top belts make stars"
ReplyDeleteAnyone read the Smackdown spoilers?
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan will end up as a deity, and his religion shall be known as Bryanism.
ReplyDeleteIf Mankind can make it to the main event, so can Bray Wyatt
ReplyDeleteI agree, people underrate Rollins' potential. He's a decent talker, a fluid worker, and the prettiest of the bunch.
ReplyDeleteI say put him in a tag team with Henry Rollins, and call it 'Keep Rollin''
What about em?
ReplyDeleteI think Fandango could be Honky Tonk Excelsior with a world title. He's taken a ridiculous gimmick, and him and the fans have run away with it.
ReplyDeleteThis morning, my girlfriend asked me if I had gone to Fandango to get tickets to Man of Steel yet.
ReplyDeleteMe: You didn't say it right.
Her: Huh?
Me: I'm not getting tickets until you say it right. It's Faaaaaaaaaan ... Daaaaaaaaan ... You know what, never mind...
I have to be vague but something...interesting happened.
ReplyDeleteI got a laugh out of that haha.
ReplyDeleteAre you talking about the Main Event?
ReplyDeleteYeah. You saw them?
ReplyDeleteWhoa. Prettiest of the bunch? I'd say Reigns is easily the prettiest member of the Shield.
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm an Ambrose man myself. I'm just looking out for the conventional fanbase.
ReplyDeleteTell me you wouldn't want to snuggle up against this:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/0a133611962451a775c22d692a259708/tumblr_mm4s7kNvVl1s9lsbro1_500.jpg
That is downright adorable. He belongs on a bottle of Downy.
ReplyDeleteI saw them but not sure what part you're referring to lol...
ReplyDeleteOh, JBL isn't THAT much of a stickler about gimmick infringement.
ReplyDeleteThe last part. Main event.
ReplyDeleteyeah. for the 4 people who watch smackdown without knowing the results SPOILER ALERT BELOW
ReplyDeletethe shield's non dq undefeated streak ends facing kane/daniel bryan/randy orton.. when they tap to brian :)
Heads will roll. I'm actually not even mad about it. I am confused though.
ReplyDeleteinteresting because it should have been done on PPV or RAW with some build.
ReplyDeleteWhat time was the Bryan/Rollins match? Ratings were up in the second hour.
ReplyDeleteAxel reminds me of Drew McIntyre a few years ago - a guy they'll pushpushpushPUSH until they get annoyed and cut his legs off entirely.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I saw them first thing this morning. Based on this and on Raw, I'd say they seem to be building D-Bry up pretty well.
ReplyDeleteRoman Reigns should NEVER cut his hair. It's Nash-ian!
ReplyDeleteI think it's really difficult to ascertain who's going to be a success or not. Bo Dallas might seem like a total tool but so did Rocky Maivia. And Mark Henry was one of the biggest busts EVER but he turned it around in the later stages of his career. And both Ted Dibiase and Cody Rhodes were considered future staples of the company before...well...not sure what happened there.
ReplyDeleteThe Shield is great now but we all know how fickle WWE is with pushing wrestlers (look at Brodus Clay, Sandow and Cesaro). I think one thing that Ambrose and Rollins have for themselves is they're indy-trained, which makes them a lot more polished than most new talent.
i feel like he is THE GUY.... like cena/hogan/austin/rock
ReplyDeleteTHE GUY never had long hair.
Maybe I'm just used to the homogenized "WWE Style", and, thus, overrate him and others, but I think the opposite is actually true - unless someone is a REAL stand-out (I'm talking Bret, Shawn, Angle, Benoit, Eddie, Bryan, etc.), I think they're just automatically considered a terrible worker by many online fans.
ReplyDeleteFuck yes! I hate to see it end but it makes it SO much better that its Bryan who finally got them! I think they put it on smackdown on purpose to build hype amongst the smarks for it.
ReplyDeleteHogan never had long hair?
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan: has settled nicely into the Benoit role of: (i) being the guy that makes everyone look better when they're in the ring with him; (ii) maintaining the fans' respect even when creative mucks about with his character; and (iii) probably never getting an extended run on top because he's too "small" for Vince and HHH. He's a far better talker than Benoit, obviously.
ReplyDeleteAntonio Cesaro: he's too good in the ring and as a character for them to let him get away; additionally, the rise to power of the former indie/ROH guys (Bryan, Punk, Rollins, etc.) will ensure that they keep him on the roster.
Dean Ambrose: awesome, but let us not get ahead of ourselves. People loved Mr. Kennedy as well when he was first rolled out. Marathon, not a sprint. Worlds of potential. More Pillman than Piper, in my mind, as a talker.
Roman Reigns: they see him as Rock 2.0 - he'll get the rocket up the ass push until he works out.
Seth Rollins: spectacular worker who is still finding his character beyond "half of my hair is blond". Still figuring out how to morph his ROH style into the WWE style, but having (as noted) a bunch of former ROH guys to play with will help immensely. Needs work on the stick, but can stay at the upper midcard for a long time.
Bray Wyatt: totally disagree with Fuj; the gimmick is EASILY main event (cult leader crossed with disenchanted Max Cady? Yes, please.). Fantasy booking is meaningless, but the Wyatt Family could be a great way to turn Punk face again - Wyatt will continue to proselytize how the fans should follow him, how he'll free them, etc.; Punk comes back, notes that his whole persona is built around people making their own choices and not following ANYONE - feud ensues. I really like Luke Harper, too.
Kassius Ohno: he'll stick around and make it to the roster; eventually someone will have the bright idea of reforming the Kings of Wrestling and he and Cesaro will get a nice tag team run before splitting up to spend the next five years making everyone else look awesome.
Big E. Langston: not a heel; he should be Huggy Bear. Vince loves power guys, so he'll get a long run.
Bo Dallas: too small, not a great worker, not cute enough to be a pretty boy face. His dad being a favorite of management will keep him employed.
Curtis Axel: they already fucked this up, amazingly. Same deal; he'll stick around and eventually end up in TNA.
Adrian Neville (PAC): I've never seen him work. Can't comment.
Fandango: comedy act midcarded for a looooong time. Santino Marella makes a hell of a living doing this gimmick and the kids love this stuff.
Hogan SORT of had long hair...
ReplyDeleteMankind could work though. Not sure about Wyatt. He just reminds me of Maxx Payne more than Cactus.
ReplyDeleteI hope WWE edits that and it doesn't make it to TV. Such a waste of a year.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen he's pretty captivating in the ring, though that's probably down to the character. He moves pretty fast for a big fella too.
ReplyDeleteEh, Axel was never going to be a WWE main eventer from jump street. If you look at the glass as half-full they're giving some prestige back to the IC title.
ReplyDeleteWith that said, Ambrose, Reigns Rollins, and Bryan will be all time greats.
ReplyDeleteThere, fixed it. Reigns? Unless he improves in the ring BIG TIME he'll definitely have a title run but without the Shield he'll be exposed. That's why the Shield works so well: Ambrose is the mouthpiece, Rollins is the bump-taker, and Reigns is the guy who looks intimidating and spears people.
kinda hard to have long hair when you're bald. and his hair was never LONG like Reigns.
ReplyDeletebut i love when people try to shoot me down.
I asked a simple question... how am I trying to shoot you down? Insecure about an up and coming talent like myself taking your spot?
ReplyDeleteWatch NXT (it's the best WWE show going right now), Wyatt can work.
ReplyDeleteRing work is the least important thing in making it, and Reigns is already passable. He is going to be a huge star.
ReplyDeleteI don't necessarily disagree, but all-time great? You have to factor ring work into that.
ReplyDeleteNot really. Goldberg and Warrior prove that. And Reigns is already miles better than them in the ring. And he is gonna improve a ton.
ReplyDeleteFoley also had the advantage of a depleted main event roster in a downcycle.
ReplyDeleteWyatt doesnt.
That hasn't nothing to do with anything. Just a random coincidence.
ReplyDeletevince wants his guy to be square jawed, all american features, short hair, chiseled, rugged but handsome.
ReplyDeleteFits Reigns to a tee. Except the short hair, which is a total coincidence. Savage, Hart, Warrior, Trips, and a bunch others have had long hair.
ReplyDeletelol... they were never THE GUY.
ReplyDeleteBut Vince wanted them to be. And what hairstyle they had nothing to do with whoever became the guy. Hulk Hogan had a fucking horseshoe cut for god's sake.
ReplyDeleteAre you counting Goldberg and Warrior as all-time greats? Given the caveat of Reigns improving in the ring I could agree with you.
ReplyDeleteOf course. Neither is in the top 5, but they're easily all time greats.
ReplyDeleteWas Warrior around longer than Goldberg? I always thought of Goldberg as having more staying power, but now that I think about it I think they might have had equal runs.
ReplyDeleteDo you really think Reigns will be a bigger star than Rollins?
he could want all he want, but he never put them in a position to become the guy.
ReplyDeleteSavage was made champion with Hogan out for a movie... the end result was for hogan to get the belt back.
do we need to discuss why hbk/hart became champs? and the stop/start pushes they got?
he put diesel over on a house show and then had him go 30 minute draw in his first defense.
Warrior got put over well... but everyone thought Hogan was riding off into the sunset... oops...
Excluding Bryan, Ambrose, Wyatt, and Fandango these guys would all benefit from managers/mouthpieces.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan -
WWE champion, if he doesn't find something he wants to do more I think he could be a GOAT candidate.
Antonio Cesaro -
I could see him being a big, big deal. He's strong and a decent talker, I think he's a guy HHH would really, really like.
Dean Ambrose -
A Foley path. I wasn't a huge fan of his ring work but he's grown on me. I could see Ambrose being a guy who doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
Roman Reigns -
If he improves as a talker I could see him being a Big Show like guy.
Seth Rollins -
I think he'll be more like Ziggler, Rollins is best at making other guys moves look great.
Bray Wyatt - I love him on NXT and I hope he gets over huge.
Kassius Ohno - His friendship with Punk helps him. I think he's a solid midcarder.
Big E. Langston - I'm a Big E. fan, I think he's a B worker and if he can improve as a talker (or get a manager) he could be a Summer champion and possibly a long-term hand.
Bo Dallas -
No idea. Kid's only 22 but he could do with a time on the indies.
Curtis Axel -
Midcarder. Or a TNA main eventer, I think that's his future.
Adrian Neville (PAC) -
Never seen him yet.
Fandango -
A Jericho type run, guy can talk.
easily
ReplyDelete"he never put them in a position to become the guy."
ReplyDeleteC'mon now this is bullshit. Vince is always looking for the next GUY and always does everything to make it happen. Sometimes it sticks(Hogan/Austin/Rock) and most times it doesn't. But it was never for a lack of trying.
He will be. Anyone picking Rollins over Reigns is like picking Flash Funk over Rocky Miavia back in 96.
ReplyDeleteparallel Austin to Hogan to Diesel to Hart's first title reigns.
ReplyDeletehow'd they win it? (ppv... house show... MSG)
how were they booked leading up to it?
Were the dominant in wining?
how were their subsequent title defenses?
break it down and youll see who was put over strong and booked dominant and put in position to be the torch bearer and who was a stop-gap.
bad example... no one knew but Cornette abt Rocky.
ReplyDeleteI hope that is sarcasm. Everyone and their mothers knew Rock was going to be a star.
ReplyDeletethe pineapple haired kid with body streamers and bitch tits?
ReplyDeletethe kid that was getting boo'ed out the building every night in 96?
you must have the ESPN, cuz nobody saw that coming.
I don't think it's that lopsided. I'm not saying that I DON'T think Reigns will be a star. It's just that he doesn't seem to have the Rock's natural charisma. Actually, I think that Reigns would make a good bodyguard character for Rollins.
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about the backlash, I'm talking about when he debuted. And speaking of the backlash, I never got that. Once he got rid of the poncho and won the IC title, he was fine.
ReplyDeleteAnd honestly, the story of the crowd rejecting Rocky and "die Rocky die" chants is a little revisionist.
if you would have said 97... definitely 98, id say "oh yea rocky is gonna be a star"
ReplyDeleteyou see him come out in series96 and got put over hard... i wasnt buying it. he looked like a goof. the first thing i said in 96 was "he looks like the pineapple dude from the tick"
not "oh... this motherfucker is gonna be running shit in 4 years"
I knew he'd get pushed to the moon, and if he had any talent, he'd do really well. I had no idea he was gonna end up as big as he was though.
ReplyDeleteHHH was never THE GUY?
ReplyDeleteDiesel was put over on a house show *at MSG* and during a time when TV was built to drive house show business, not the other way around.
ReplyDeleteUndertaker didn't have long hair? He wasn't "THE GUY"?
ReplyDeleteHe's like some kind of tank with a Ferrari engine.
ReplyDeleteHow is it a waste? They were eventually going to lose a match, and they lost to the best guy in the company, who happened to need a big win.
ReplyDeleteOn Smackdown that will be seen by 8 people.
ReplyDeleteOn the plus side, he'll be able to get in Taryn Terrell.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack: this is just great
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/JakeSnakeDDT/status/344803993886785536
I don't think it's time to give up on Curtis Axel yet. Definitely take a step back from having him up against Cena/HHH, but after he wins the Intercontinental title there are numerous near-main-event feuds he could have: Sheamus, Jericho, Del Rio, Orton, Kane, etc.
ReplyDeleteCesaro is great in the ring, but I wish they'd repackage him because everything else about him is corny: The music, the outfits, that punch-the-air thing, the neck-crack, the yodeling. It's not like anybody is in love with his character right now, so a total makeover wouldn't hurt him.
When he goes to TNA?
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Fandango is that as good as his gimmick is, it's overshadowing his real athletic talent. He has a ferocious top rope leg drop that should be enough on its own to get him over, but since he's sort of playing a chickenshit heel, he can't showcase it. I'm glad he's getting over and making money, but when the time comes, he's going to need to take his character to another level to have longevity in the big E. (And I don't think switching to TNA would help, because if his career hit that point, they'd probably be looking for Fandango 2.0.)
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure Curtis Axel lasts another six months. Real shame- his work is so bad, it's nearly killing Heyman's gimmick.
this blog: bitches that nothing important happens on smackdown, bitches when somethingimportant happens on smackdown.
ReplyDeleteAll this Axel hate is interesting to me. People should remember that Mr. Perfect didn't exactly set the world on fire with his mic skills. I think this is a case of many fans wanting Axel to succeed as an underdog when he wasn't being pushed, but as soon as he got this huge push they turned on him because he was no longer an underdog, and, thus, no longer someone that they could look like they know more than everyone else by saying "yeah, wrestler A is okay, but he's no McGillicutty. Why aren't they pushing McGillicutty?"
ReplyDeleteReigns isn't going to be THE GUY, and the hair doesn't make a difference.
ReplyDeleteHow long you been a wrestling fan?
ReplyDeletebe honest and tell me
Ive never complained about SD because simply I don't watch it.
ReplyDeleteWell, if I'm being honest.
ReplyDelete'86-87, in earnest. Old CWF/FCW, NWA fan. Jesse Barr, Wahoo, Luger, Windham.
I think if they're willing to steal King of Kings from Jesus then they're probably willing to call someone a god.
ReplyDeleteand thats good so you have perspective like me.
ReplyDeleteThink about Takers tenure as a wrestler from 90 until today.
Has he been more akin to Andre or Hogan?
He has been the long standing presence, but he was never in position to be THE GUY.
The man put in place to carry the company. The man to draw money and hold the flagship title for a good time. The man who is best for business all around. Media House show PPV TV. The man to travel the globe and do stuff like Make a wish and be on the cover of Sports Ill, People and TV Guide and all the commercials.
That's what I mean when i say THE GUY.
Austin
ROck
Hogan
Cena
Sammartino in the territory days.
Those were THE GUYS.
Taker, HHH, Bret, HBK Diesel... those werent THE GUYS. Their reigns compared to the reigns of the 4-5 I mention PALE IN COMPARISION.
exactly.
ReplyDeletehow is someone like Kassius Ohno that different from Steve Austin in the beginning of 1996? who would have predicted Foley's career back when he was in WCW?
on the opposite: didn't almost everyone think that someone like Crush would be a much bigger star than he turned out to be?
I thought it was going to be all downhill for him the moment he lost the intercontinental championship.
ReplyDeleteDiesel won the title in eight seconds!
ReplyDeleteyou rip off a name from Game of Thrones.
ReplyDeleteAgain, and then he goes 30 minute broadway with a guy a foot shorter.
ReplyDeleteThats not exactly strapping the rocket to his ass and going with him.
Nash even said it himself in the 95 timeline.
People need to stop being mean to poor Koko. The guy was a jobber during the PEAK of the WWF in the 1980s & early 90s, and deserves credit for putting up with that while everyone else was whining for pushes. There's a certain amount of respect for a guy who was booked to lose THAT OFTEN.
ReplyDelete"how'd they win it? (ppv... house show... MSG)
ReplyDeletehow were they booked leading up to it?
Were the dominant in wining?"
3 out 4 still ain't bad, right?
Your analysis is faulty in that you're focusing on outliers as exemplifying the mean.
ReplyDeleteAustin was the biggest peak star in the history of the industry. He also didn't have short hair by choice.
Rock is the only professional wrestler that has successfully migrated to popular culture.
Hogan is the biggest star in the history of the industry. As noted, Hogan had the skullet.
Cena is the perfect PG champion for the current product.
Sammartino was the biggest "ethnic" star when the ethnic star was the most important person in the business.
The common denominator among these guys isn't that they have short hair.
Additionally, Hart was ABSOLUTELY "the guy" and the face of the company during most of his 92-95 run and the then-WWF did massive international business with Hart as the focal point. There's a reason that Vince recalls Hart's 90 minute broadways in sub-Saharan Africa, surrounded by 200,000 adoring fans, with tears in his eyes and a pup tent in his slacks.
You gotta dumb it down for me. Im a wrestling fan.
ReplyDeleteHart was never the guy. If Hart was the guy why job him out at WM9 to Yoko, then transition to Hogan?
If Hart was the guy, why stick him with a 2 year run with an announcer while Diesel and the Kliq almost killed the WWF?
If Hart was the guy why give him that sterling 95 run of Issac Yankem and Hakushi?
If Hart was the guy, why did he go over Flair on a HOUSE SHOW rather than PPV?
Answer... he was never the guy. He was a stop-gap. Dont delude yourself thinking he was on the same caliber as the real draws. Because he wasnt. I never saw the Bret Express tour bus or the year long title reign from Bret that Nash had.
lol... i swear youze guys kill me.
Your position is jumping all over the place, no?
ReplyDeleteHart was the guy. He was 'jobbed out' to Yoko (and Hogan, ultimately) because Vince got cold feet on focusing the company on a smaller guy (ultimately reversing himself). This has been WELL documented in a variety of sources.
Creative in the early to mid 90s sucked and exemplified how the WWF had fallen behind the 'real world' aspects of ECW and ultimately WCW, in that Vince was still focusing on 'characters' (the wrestling dentist! the wrestling hillbilly! the wrestling aristrocrat! the wrestling gang members!) rather than personalities. This has also been well documented as a sea-change with respect to creative.
Hart went over Flair on a house show because: (i) Vince and creative were freaking out about a revolt/power play among the players backstage (the "Kliq", Undertaker's group [this was discussed on the Austin podcast recently]) and wanted to get the belt on Hart asap; and (ii) house shows meant a hell of a lot more before the Monday Night Wars really ramped up. Again, well documented. As I noted in an earlier post, TV was to support the house shows at that point, not the other way around. Hart also worked against odd heels because the talent level was f'd at that point (not just for him, either; Undertaker was working against Giant Gonzalez, Mabel, the Executioner (a brain-damaged Terry Gordy). Diesel/Nash was working against Mabel, Tatanka.
Additionally, the WWF was TRYING to make Luger or Diesel
into “The Guy”, but kept going back to Bret – that means something, in that Vince clearly relied on him to carry the belt when the company was dangerously close to scuttling.
Around 1993-95, all they really had of any major value was Michaels, Taker, Nash and Hall, with Bret as “The Guy”. The rest of the roster was largely comprised of guys like Hakushi, Fatu, Jarrett, Mabel, etc.
No its not. Please tell me where it is.
ReplyDeleteParagraph #1: Thank you admitting what we already know. Vince had cold feet and went with a bigger guy. But lets go further.
Paragraph #3 Even if you heard this on a podcast, this is false. The Kliq wasnt formed in 92 because Kid didnt make it to the WWF until 93 and Nash was still in WCW as Vinnie Vegas and HHH hadnt even started training wrestling yet. THe person who named the Kilq wasnt even in the WWF yet (Bigelow IIRC) so where the fuck are you getting this info? Not to mention the BSK wasnt even formed yet because they were formed in a direct response to the Kliq. Again DAFUQ?
House show biz had dried out by 92 and Vince (an admitted big guy lover) wanted to get the belt off Flair (true) and onto Hart to drive house show biz up? Yes he wanted the belt of Flair ASAP but not because of that. He had already soured on Flair and was ready to get him out of dodge and wanted to go younger. He had no bodies because of the trial and Hart was the most reliable because of his overseas popularity. America business was DOWN.
But lets continue...
Paragraph #4 If Vince kept trying to make LUger or Diesel the guy but kept going back to Bret, does that make Bret THE GUY? or does that make him the less of three evils? Admittedly they strapped the rocket to Luger and Diesel and if they took off... no Bret. How does that make Bret the guy cuz they bombed? That makes him the ugly chick at the end of the night. Not the hot chick you first see. The guy by default.... But never in the same class as the ones i have mentioned.
Our definitions of what THE GUY differs. I want the person that draws money on my team. You want the guy that keeps the ship afloat... barely...
You're supporting your position that Hart wasn't "THE GUY" by criticizing the talent surrounding him. That doesn't make sense to me. It'd be the same as saying that LeBron was crap on Cleveland because the second best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskas.
ReplyDelete#1 I'm not sure that I was "admitting"(?) anything, just restating facts.
#3: You're correct, my apologies. Screwed up the timeline. As I understand it, in 1992 Vince was concerned with posturing from various parties backstage AND Flair (allegedly) refused to put Hart over on TV.
Per Bret:
"Six weeks later Flair was told to lose the belt to me in Saskatoon on October 12, 1992. As I understood it, Flair declined putting me over on TV, despite the fact that he himself had just told me that Wembley was the best match he'd ever seen!"
Now, this could certainly be Bret being Bret, but whatever. Vince also (allegedly) wanted the belt on a smaller cat due to the steroid trials. US house show business had dried out, but the international (and particularly European) tours were still doing gangbusters business.
Your positioning of the 'definition' is a classic strawman fallacy ("MY GUY IS AWESOME AND YOU'D PICK THE WRONG PERSON WHO SUCKS, NYAH!"). I'm not sure I actually have one, but if compelled, my definition of THE GUY would, I guess, be the focal point of the company with the primary storylines running through or around that character, be they the champion or not.
HHH was THE GUY. Cena is THE GUY. Hogan was THE GUY. Austin was THE GUY. Flair was (for WCW) THE GUY. Bret was THE GUY (in a down period, but still THE GUY). Savage certainly was, when Hogan was trying to crack Hollywood.
There are going to be periods of time in any business where you don't have the horse at the lead that you'd prefer, so you go with what you have. Positing Hart as anything but the focal point of the company because you would have preferred someone better is begging the question. I'll turn it around; if NOT Hart (or the "ugly girl"[?]/keep ship afloat guy), who would have YOU focused on during that period. We'll all accept this is twenty twenty hindsight, so try to go without "I WOULDA SIGNED AUSTIN AND MADE HIM STONE COLD RIGHT AWAY!"