Scott,
With Cena seemingly falling into the "I don't like him but I respect him" category, what do you think his legacy will be? Will his stale character and overexposure hurt his chances of being remembered alongside guys like Austin, Hogan and Michaels?
I don't know what he'll be remembered as yet because the next generation of fans haven't entered into the business with their nostalgic views of him. I wouldn't have thought that Hogan would get a 10 minute standing ovation in 2002 given how his career wound down in WCW, but you never know. Maybe Cena will go away for a couple of years at the end of his career and get to come back as a massively popular legend, you never know.
I say he goes down as Backlund-esque. He's a great talent and a workhorse, but nobody really likes him.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think he's headed for Hogan's career. Cena IS wrestling for a younger generation of fans. He could either turn heel and do an updated version of Hollywood Cena or he could shift straight into that special attraction role where he only wrestles a few matches a year but they're always big events like Undertaker or Brock.
ReplyDeleteI think WWE has got smarter about how they handle their older guys now. Jericho comes and goes as he pleases. They came to a deal with Brock and Rock to let them work super part time schedules and Undertaker works 5-10 nights a year at best now. When Cena's ready to scale it back, they'll have something for him. He'll never be a 50 year old Flair wrestling in a t-shirt 150 nights a year.
I always thought that WWF fans had a sort of affinity for Hogan. The 2002 pop wasn't all that surprising to me.
ReplyDeleteI'd say as a modern day Hogan, if he disappeared for a good few years and came back for occasional money matches I'd say he'd get a huge response from his nostalgic kiddie fans who are now all grown up. In the long-term I even think the smart fans who 'hate' him will give him the nostalgia treatment. In life sometimes people only realise how good things are until they've gone and the unique reaction Cena gets is one of those special things that divides us all and actually makes for compelling viewing, even the most jaded fan I believe will miss it. A wink nudge nudge "Let's go Cena".. "Cena Sucks" would bring smiles to every ones faces.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Hogan's fans grew up with him in the 8-9 years he was on top in the WWE and came back when he was with the nWo. Whereas, Cena's fans seem to cycle out. They get older and either become fans of guys like Punk and Bryan or stop watching all together.
ReplyDeleteKids love him.
ReplyDeleteHogan was fresh in that environment, though. He hadn't be around WWE for around 9 years when he came back. Cena can't jump promotions to make himself fresh. The Rock had a long layoff and after what amounts to 4-5 months of TV over 3 years, you can see the shine coming off.
ReplyDeleteThe kids that love him now won't, and kids in the future won't.
ReplyDeleteI keep getting the feeling that Cena is one of those guys who will be appreciated pretty universally 15 years from now. The staleness of his character makes us hate him in the moment, but he's got some damn good matches in his career, and will probably have a few more before he calls it quits.
ReplyDeleteI look at him like I did "super smiley babyface" Bret Hart. I wasn't into the character much then, but now? I love watching Bret from that era.
If Cena were to ever turn heel, and do it successfully...it would cement him in that rarified air of the Hogan, Rock, Austin types. I just think he needs a strong heel run for people to really appreciate that he's pretty good at what he does.
Its way too early to think you know what cena's legacy is. I don't think a lot of you realize just how much career he has left. When Hogan was his age, do you know what year it was? 1989! Flair? 1987! Undertaker? 2001! Bret Hart? 1993! There's a good chance that we're about halfway through his professional wrestling story.
ReplyDeleteCena will be like LeBron James: gifted and hard working but not quite as popular as he should be because of the overexposure.
ReplyDeletenWo
ReplyDeleteWow it really does not seem like Taker is that much younger than Hogan. Mind blown a little.
ReplyDeleteI think we have to compare Cena to Hogan here. He's clearly the top guy on the top of the card, moves the merch, and has the kiddies as his fans. If we compare the two, Cena is about fifty-thousand times better in the ring than Hogan. In that regard, if he "retires" at some point, takes some time off (as others have said), you could assume he would get a good pop from those who adore him (the kids who have grown up), and those who respect his work in the ring (guys like me and most of you).
ReplyDeleteI think it's a smark's cynical dream that Cena would be boo'd today, but a few years from now, those same smarks will probably enjoy a "Cena vs. the new major headliner" mania match where he puts the younger guy over. And make no mistake about it, Cena WILL put the younger guy over a few years from now when he's at that point in his career.
To be honest, right now if he would shut up and wrestle, I'd probably like him more than I do.
Many of them will still look back at him nostalgically the same way people do with Hogan.
ReplyDeleteMost of the hate for Cena is in his character, booking, and rambling promos, not to mention a lot of residual anger for being pushed so hard so quickly - down the line, when we just think back to his great matches and actual money promos, we'll all smile.
ReplyDeleteMaybe, although people liked Hogan at the time and it's not the same for Cena. I mean, I like Cena's a great talent and everything, but he's more Bieber-ish. Everyone thinks he's an asshole except for his fans. If I had grown up with Cena, I'd look back and go, "what an asshole that guy was, what was wrong with me?"
ReplyDeleteAlso, Hogan's popularity revolutionized wrestling whereas Cena is just really, really popular. He's not iconic and he's not a trendsetter. Hogan's like Van Halen or GNR where you listen back and go "those were the fuckin' days!" and Cena's like hearing Limp Bizkit and going "what the fuck was THAT about? I liked this?"
I think Cena will have a great legacy for the reasons people have already pointed out. Not that i give two shits about the HOF but what I'm curious about will be his HOF induction reaction...will the smart crowd that attends those things finally give him the great response he'd deserve in that moment? Not that he deserves it but it would almost be fitting if they booed him for a second at his induction...a fitting indication
ReplyDeleteof the relationship hes had with the fans. I think Cena would actually enjoy it also, as long as its not completely over the top.
Yeah, when Taker beat Hogan in 1991, he was (at the time) the youngest WWF Champion ever.
ReplyDeleteYokozuna took that title in '93 but still, Taker was a pretty young Dead Man.
In terms of Cena's legacy I am going to repost something I wrote to Caliber a few weeks ago
ReplyDeleteAfter the deaths of Guerrero and especially Beniot the WWE's image was
in shambles. I was viewing from afar from that point and I really
thought the company might die. As the face of the company it was largely
on Cena's shoulder's to try and repair that image being it with his on
screen character or his work with Make a Wish, and the Troops or
whatever. And guess what? To a large degree it's succeeded. I don't hear
a lot of negative stories about the WWE anymore. They are featured on
sites Grantland, ESPN.com, and Bleacher Report in a mostly positive
light. When they had Wrestlemania at Giant Stadium, (I refuse to call it
that other name,) the biggest NJ paper had articles in the sports
section all week leading up to the event, again mostly positive. Hell
the Governor did the voice over for the intro. Like him or not I really
think that Cena had a lot to do with that.
That's Cena's legacy
I don't think Cena (or anybody) will ever be remembered as fondly as Hogan or Austin. That said, whether you like his character or not, you have to admit he's been a hard worker who has complied a pretty impressive catalog of matches throughout the past decade.
ReplyDeleteThat's madness. I had no idea Bret was that age when he was just getting started as a main eventer.
ReplyDeleteCena already IS around that Hogan/Austin level, which is insane because he's still so young relative to a lot of the 'legends'
ReplyDeleteI agree his legacy seems incomplete without the heel run that many of us are clamoring for.
ReplyDeleteActually Flair got into decent shape and had a hell of a run in his 50's. No he didn't look like a 25 year old, but he could still work. I hate all this Flair backlash from the smart community these days WTF.
ReplyDeleteHey another music aficionado takes a pot shot at Limp Bizkit. You must have impeccable taste in music. I always enjoyed Rap/Rock as a genre, Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Body Count, Biohazard, Rage, Phunk Junkies, etc. So when Limp Bizkit came out I enjoyed it but was not obsessed like evidently everyone here was. I can think of "Nookie" and remember Summer of 99' and not be upset or pissed like everyone else is for whatever reason. They captured the time perfectly and sometimes there is nothing wrong with that. Someone was buying all those albums.
ReplyDeleteGNR and Van Halen rule too.
Cena has to have a heel run to cement his legacy. Otherwise he will be somewhere in the category of someone like Sting. Never before has a crowd wanted to boo someone so badly.
ReplyDeleteBelieve me, I still have Chocolate Starfish And The Hotdog Flavored Water recited word-for-word. "Ain't you ashamed that you can't say fuck? Fuck! Fuck's just a word and it's all fucked up. Like a fucked up punk with a fucked up mouth..." "This is dedicated to you Ben Stillaaaah! You are my favorite mothahfuckah... I told you, didn't I?"
ReplyDelete...Yeah... I'm being complete serious BTW, I spun that cunt a million times. Whenever I hear it nowadays, I only enjoy it ironically. And yes, Run DMC, Rage and Beastie Boys are cool forever.
...Anyway, my point was that everybody turned on them the same way people turned on the hair bands, Leif Garrett, like they will Bieber and like Cena won't be vogue among preteens. Most bands part of a wave last about as long as milk out in the sun, it's the truly good ones that last for decades.
He doesn't get the respect he deserves for his in-ring performances. I was annoyed by the crowd at Summerslam chanting 'You Can't Wrestle' at him. It's pathetic tbh, the guy is a fine wrestler and he actually goes out of his way to prove it by busting out random sit out powerbombs, hurricanranas etc. If you give Cena a decent opponent you can guarantee he can keep up with them.
ReplyDeleteI'll accept his promos are annoying and especially his attempts at humour but it works for the kids that love him and as such overall he should leave behind a great legacy
Is Cena?
ReplyDeleteHogan slammed Andre and that made him the superstar of a generation.
Austin bleeding in the Sharpshooter, or stunning McMahon, made him the superstar of a generation.
What is Cena's moment that will always be remembered?
I think it's just overexposure for Cena at this point. He's been on top, more or less, for 10 straight years with really no break. I wouldn't be surprised if he shifted into a part-time role. Not crazy like Brock, but more like how the Undertaker more or less had summer's off from 2006 on.
ReplyDeleteThat's kind of the sad thing. When it's all said and done, there isn't really one moment that will define Cena, same with Triple H.
ReplyDeleteHHH defined himself for the blog's opinion at Wrestlemania XIX
ReplyDeleteHHH's career defining moment was marrying Steph. In storyline. And I'm being 100% serious, him telling Vince they "consumated the marriage" and the subsequent hug with Steph at Armageddon made him the #1 heel of 1999-2001.
ReplyDeleteThat's perfect actually. I just rewatched that segment, and everything about it IS perfect.
ReplyDeleteThreadjack: Anyone ever seen this before (courtesy of Wikipedia):
ReplyDeletehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/WWE_world_title_lineage.jpeg
What story is there left to tell though?
ReplyDeleteYoungest champ was Brock at 25.
ReplyDeleteSting turned heel!
ReplyDeleteit just dawned on me that, storyline wise, the entirety of Triple H's rise to power is a case of Stockholm Syndrome.
ReplyDeleteNo, I'm pretty sure it was established in storyline that Steph was in on it with HHH, although I think getting hit in the face with a trashcan by the British Bulldog changed her personality (seriously, haha).
ReplyDeleteYeah, it terms of what he's done as the "face of the company" and being the perfect corproate champion, that can't be denied.
ReplyDeleteWhy would he stop doing what he loves?
ReplyDeleteA Christmas Carol
ReplyDeletethat doesn't count!
ReplyDeleteYou'd look back at Cena the same way we now look back at Hogan? And this makes Cena less of a Hogan how?
ReplyDeleteLittle kids these days don't know who Hogan is, they aren't going to compare Cena to Hogan's legend the same way we never compared Hogan to Billy Graham.
In fifteen years when Cena comes back for a random Mania against whichever twelve year old is sitting in his room right now getting ready to be the next Austin, the crowd will react exactly like they did in Toronto because, for that generation, the story will be exactly the same. Their childhood hero, the guy that owned the company when they were kids, coming back to pass the torch.
I'm a member of the chain gang and cenation. Cenas the best, I get tired of hearing how tired people are of his act.
ReplyDeleteWe won't decide Cena's legacy, we're like the old guard. We keep judging him in the lens of history like Hogan and Austin but I don't think the real people deciding his legacy, the young people, will ever judge him against those guys because they never watched them.
ReplyDeleteIt would be like us suddenly deciding to have a discussion about whether Hogan deserves to be alongside guy like Billy Graham, most of us would never think to have that discussion because we never really even saw Billy Graham work. He was before "our" time so he doesn't really count. It's just how people are about these things.
Imagine having a conversation with anyone but Bill Simmons about whether Jordan deserves to be placed in the same regard as "some guy" from the 1964 Celtics or something.
tl;dr People can only really judge things against the events of their own time, Cena won't be "a" Hogan or Austin, for this generation he already is "the" Hogan or Austin by which all others will be judged.
Yeah he broke Yokozuna's record. I'm just saying Yoko broke Taker's record.
ReplyDeletethen randy orton at 24 to spite brock
ReplyDeleteThe Sting heel turn was stupid. It would have been smart to turn sting in 94.
ReplyDeleteLike Bob Backlund!
ReplyDeletebeing in the same category as Sting or Ricky Stwamboat is nothing to be ashamed of.
ReplyDeletethat's nonsense. Hogan's legacy was set in stone before his heel turn and even before he stepped foot in WCW.
ReplyDeleteBrock's still the youngest WWE Champion though.
ReplyDeleteYou know, the belt that matters.
Good point. Taker is part time because of age and being physically broken down. Brock is part time because he doesn't really love wrestling, and he can get away with it.
ReplyDeleteA better comparison might be someone like Jericho - who switched to part-time when he was still healthy. But Jericho was interested in music, and I think he realized that he probably was not going to get another serious run as a main-eventer - neither of which applies to Cena.
As long as he's healthy, making money, and getting a reaction without being an embarassment, why would he switch to part-time?
"Hogan slammed Andre and that made him the superstar of a generation."
ReplyDeleteHogan was already the superstar of the generation before Wrestlemania III. IMO, Hogan became the star of the generation the moment he pinned the Iron Sheik.
I think anyone who is a fan of a sport or wrestling goes back and discovers history. I never saw Jim Brown or Johnny Unitas play football, but I know how important they are to the game. Likewise I didn't start watching NWA until 1990, but I was able to go back watch 1989 and discover how great it was and judge it against the present. I think you are being very presumptuous that young people won't rediscover the past, especially if they are hardcore fans.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I don't really like his wrestling persona or character, but he can go in the ring with the best of them.
ReplyDeleteIt's a lot easier for fans to rediscover the past than it was for us older fans. Today's fans can find videos of the iconic moments for Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, Sting, etc.
ReplyDeleteBut for those of us who started wrestling in the 80s and 90s - there's not that as much footage out there of Graham, Sammartino, Race, Funk, etc.
The style from back then has also not held up as well as the Attitude era or The early wrestlemanias have
ReplyDeleteand getting a reaction without being an embarassment
ReplyDeleteI don't know, Id be embarrassed if I had to say half the shit Cena does
I think that's a piss off with Cena--He CAN wrestle--so why does he only use a move that isn't in every match he wrestles when he's against Bryan/Punk. I want MORE random shit! Random shit is FUN!
ReplyDeleteWell, I was thinking specifically of Ric Flair towards the end, where it was just kinda sad to see him out there.
ReplyDeleteI'm mostly kidding--I just really question Cena's sensibilities when he doesn't say NO to some of the garbage they have him do (see Punk, CM)
ReplyDeletei.e. I wouldn't compare Adrian Peterson to Paul Hornung but I could easily compare him to Walter Payton or Eric Dickerson. Wrestling before 1985 was a very different animal.
ReplyDeleteThe Andre match was seen by one of the biggest, most visible shows ever. Hogan was a star, at Wrestlemania III he became *THE* *BIGGEST* *STAR*
ReplyDeleteIt was kind of sad to see Flair at the end of WCW, when he was wearing a T-shirt and working for guys like Russo and Bischoff who went out of their way to humiliate him.
ReplyDeleteBut his second run with the WWF/WWE was solid. I think the biggest problem was that once the Evolution angle finished up, there wasn't really much to do with him. He still drew a great reaction, he could still occasionally bust out decent matches, but it just became harder and harder to stretch your belief enough for him to realistically beat guys 30 years younger.
But I agree with you about the anti-Flair backlash. Yeah yeah - Flair refused to put people over, wasted money, and had a deplorable personal life. You can say the the same about Hogan (refused to put people over, cheated on his wife), Michaels (refused to put people over, drug addict, political back-stabber), Bret Hart (refused to put some people over, cheated on his wife), Austin (wife beater!!!), etc. Pretty much every major star has refused to put someone over at some point in his life, and it's not like the wrestling profession attracts a bunch of choirboys. I don't quite get why Flair is demonized while all these other guys get a pass.
Oh yes. I agree 100%. The Flair/Race from Starcade seems kind of plodding and slow by today's standards.
ReplyDeleteI guess. I was already following wrestling fairly actively by Wrestlemania 3 - so it didn't really change my view of him.
ReplyDeleteFlair is a bad example as he fit perfectly into 3 different eras.
ReplyDeleteWho has Flair ever refused to put over? I remember him jobbing to Buff Bagwell and Rico the Stylist. I also HATE that the Grantland article was taken as gospel.
ReplyDeletewhat about the NWA title that Shane Douglas threw down?
ReplyDeleteThe one most people bring up the most is Lugar, especially at the Great American Bash '88 (and to a lesser extent in 1990). And how he refused to drop the title in '91 when he was on his way out of WCW.
ReplyDeleteLook at the title of the picture - it's the WWE's title lineage. Shane's NWA title and the TNA title (back when it was part of the NWA) aren't part of that lineage.
ReplyDeleteCena will lead the "Cena Sucks" and "You Can't Wrestle" chants, much like when Angle lead the "You Suck" chants in 2003.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm talking about the thing that Hogan over the top as a legend. Beating a transitional champ didn't do that.
ReplyDeleteSmarks give the Austin Sharpshooter spot a mythical meaning. For the casual fan, there are probably several other more memorable iconic moments for Austin. Hogan was already a mega-star, the Andre slam was definitely a defining moment though.
ReplyDeleteI haven't paid much attention to the Cena Era, so I can't speak to his biggest moments, but I think you are right that there is no obvious "slammed Andre" moment for him, despite all the wins, title reigns, and main events.
True. It's a lot of punching and kicking through crowds, putting each other through announce tables, and run-in finishes.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Dude just delivered a near ***** match with a busted arm. Someone will say Bryan carried most of the match, and that's fine, but it always takes two to go the full monty
ReplyDeleteSting flopped as champion and never drew anything near the money, mainstream interest, or transcendant stardom that John Cena has. I'm a Sting guy and have been since about 1989, but he is nowhere near the same league as Cena. Never truly carried WCW as top guy, for all his longevity and legacy as 'Franchise'
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Hogan could have retired in '95/'96, having never turned heel, and been the biggest star ever....challenged only when Austin rose to prominence.
ReplyDeleteSo bad...so, so bad.
ReplyDeleteI would guess the win over the Rock will be what WWE decides is his "big moment"
ReplyDeleteAnd in that sense, Cena has the most impressive legacy, IMO.
ReplyDeleteFair point. How do you do the "underdog" story when Cena has already won a million titles, headlined every show, beaten everyone on the roster? Even a heel turn wouldn't mean much to me, because the dude has already been superman for so long. I think a heel turn made sense for Hogan because he was the aging former superstar who might get passed by in the business. He turns heel, becomes a ratfuck coward, and is basically the antithesis of the Hulkamania hero character because he's trying to hang on. It wouldn't make much sense for SuperCena to become a cowardly heel over night, because he's still beating people consistently. He's not old or broken down yet
ReplyDeleteThat sucked. I still contend that it should have been Edge getting built up and put over Benoit at that SummerSlam (in Toronto no less). Orton could have used more of that Legend Killer push before getting the belt. It seemed premature.
ReplyDeleteYep. When he's off TV regularly and we have a truly new crop of talent running the show, we will remember Cena for all the great matches he had with a variety of different people.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. If Hogan never arrives in WCW, he's still one of the top three biggest stars of all time
ReplyDeleteAgreed. The combination of spectacle, nostalgia, and old-school fandom made it the perfect recipe for a Wrestlemania pop
ReplyDeleteHe just kept hanging on too long. That retirement match should have taken place a couple years prior. I agree though, he has taken a lot of heat from a community that used to embrace him
ReplyDeleteIt's curious to me why people even CARE about Flair's personal life. It's a weird relationship that internet fans have with wrestlers, for sure.
ReplyDeleteThat's kind of consistent with Hogan though. If you look back, Hogan did a lot of heelish shit and was a sore loser for sure. He was our paragon of virtue (as kids) because the WWF told us he was, but he didn't really ACT like a virtuous hero or anything.
ReplyDeleteI partially disagree. He did 'carry' WCW through some lean years .For several years, especially after Flair jumped to the WWF - Sting was all they had. His feuds with Vader and the Dangerous Alliance at least kept WCW afloat.
ReplyDeleteWhen Cena AA'd Big Show and Edge at the same time that was a pretty cool moment.
ReplyDeleteI refuse to believe that the World Title shares any lineage with the WCW or NWA Title.
ReplyDeleteTriple H was the first champion, and such great champions as The Great Khali, Jack Swagger, and Chris Benoit have held it since then.
He plays it smart. Save the good shit for big matches. That's something I can respect.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, coming back would be the perfect time for a heel turn. Fans are invested in Bryan now. Imagine Cena coming back, seemingly looking like he's siding with Bryan, and suddenly sides with Triple H and the McMahons?
ReplyDeleteI'd be embarrassed that as the top "face" in the company, a majority of the live audience have been booing me out of the building since 2006.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was that important to Hogan's legacy, my point was that from my perspective, it is important to Cena's.
ReplyDeleteInteresting.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I just feel that Cena won't be treated like a reminder of glory days. To me, Hogan, Rock and Austin are untouchable juggernauts because they changed the perception of wrestling. Cena's just a dude who's been on top for a long time. That's how it feels.
Cena tapping HHH at WM 22 is probably his biggest moment. Although when I think Cena, I think smirking with the title after beating Batista at WM26, posing right with fans wearing I hate Cena shirts.
ReplyDeleteYou could also argue WM29 beating the Rock, or his surprise Rumble return as his iconic moments
Stop downvoting me. LeBron.
ReplyDeleteIntroducing the "Spinner" belts to wrestling, but I don't think there is one match that particularly stands out.
ReplyDeleteCena also needs that one heel he can't beat. Because he's climbed every mountain people are tired of him. Dynasties are bad for business.
ReplyDeleteThey blew their chance to accomplish this with Lesnar. He beat him and moved on like it was nothing.
Dynasties are not necessarily bad for business. Hulk Hogan, the Bulls, the Heat, the Lakers/Celtics, the 70s Steelers...I could go on.
ReplyDeleteDynasties are great for TV ratings. Tiger Woods, the Patriots, Lebron and the Heat(Dynasty in the making), the Yankees...
ReplyDeleteThey are good in the beginning, but when you know who is going to win it gets old fast.
ReplyDeleteAnd Aurora will be breaking that record in the near future.
ReplyDeleteYes. Around the time he won the IC title, his feud with HHH and the Evolution run Ric made a good accounting for himself.
ReplyDeleteThey can rediscover the past all they want but without the context they won't think anything of it. You learned about Unitas, great, do you spend your time wondering who was better Unitas or Brady?
ReplyDeleteThat's all I mean, we hear these names we know they were great, but no one knows really how good they were because no one has ever gone back and watched their entire career unfold.
Look no further than this website, when was the last time the "who is the GOAT" question came up and people offered answers from before 1985?
It's presumptuous to think that a group of old bitter fans get to decide the legacy of a guy they plainly hate watching anyway.