Scott,
Do you think Brock Lesnar's rise was timed correctly in 2002? He was still really green, had not had meaningful feuds to establish himself, and didn't benefit from the current UFC badass crossover appeal in 2002. He was an unknown commodity with a ton of potential, but was hardly the surefire badass main eventer of today. Do you think SummerSlam 2002 was the time to put him on top?
As a matter of personal opinion, I think the way to go was for Brock to come in as Kurt Angle's bodyguard (the Diesel to his Shawn Michaels). They can emphasize the NCAA background with Kurt building a team of Brock, Benjamin, and Haas as his "legitimate" wrestling stable. Brock can gain experience through 2002 and build the monster image against a greater variety of opponents. Eventually, Angle becomes TOO reliant on Lesnar's assistance to protect his title (in a prolonged feud with the returning Benoit?) and Brock ends up ditching Angle. Brock does the babyface turn, dominates the Royal Rumble and you put him over Angle (who needed to leave for surgery) at Wrestlemania 19 for his FIRST title. I just think Angle-Lesnar could have had an even more epic build and Brock's rise could have gained more steam with a slower burn (even if it's just prolonged from SummerSlam 2002 to Wrestlemania).
Why prolong it? He was super hot by Summerslam, and people bought the title change. I don't see what the problem was. Failing to pull the trigger on their hot acts is exactly what the problem was 99% of the time, so I'm sure where keeping it off him would help matters.
The problem wasn't putting Brock over at SummerSlam.
ReplyDeleteThe problem was putting Brock into a (crappy) feud with the Undertaker right after.
The Hell In A Cell match was real good at least.
ReplyDeleteRemember, Rock was leaving for Hollywood regardless. Someone credible had to put him over at the time. Who else would have?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't change a thing.
ReplyDeleteBrock was the top heel within a month of his debut. They made the right call
ReplyDeleteJust once, I'd like to see someone rebook something that really needs rebooked: the last season of Roseanne.
ReplyDeleteBrock Lesnar was a beast the moment he came out and destroyed Spike Dudley. Saw Lesnar in a dark match at Raw in Minneapolis before he debuted, he nailed the SSP and was insanely over with the adopted hometown crowd. No way the WWE could have done a slow burn with him.
ReplyDeletewhen you bearhug hogan, no sell the 5 star frog splash and F5 Mizark, and Albert... why the fuck would you tick that guy in a stable?
ReplyDeleteAlso, beating up Undertaker ( eventually) is a good way to build heat on a new champion...
ReplyDeleteThey did it wrong of course by not havign Undertaker job earlier, but still!
The biggest problems with Brock are his Okeydoke face and not giving a fuck about wrestling.
ReplyDeleteThinking about it more the only things I wish would have been different were 1. How Steve Austin left. and 2. Ric Flair hastily being turned back into a face after a sweet heel turn and alliance w/ Benoit and Guerrero. Neither of those directly relate to Brock but more so how Austin reacted to jobbing to Brock.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what sitcom showrunners were smoking in the 90s during their final seasons, but Family Matters took a similarly perplexing turn towards the surreal. I think Step-by-Step might have as well, though memory fails. (Except where Christine Lakin is concerned. Girl is fine as hell)
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, Family Matters had problems from the start. Their middle kid went upstairs and wasn't seen again.
ReplyDelete(I know about the porn she did. The less said the better.)
That Hogan match was on the first show I watched after a year hiatus from watching WWE. I didn't even know Hogan had returned, and then I see him get savaged by this mystery monster heel. By the time Lesnar was smearing Hogan's blood on his chest like warpaint, I was a fan forever.
ReplyDeletePS, link to Hogan match. Blood bit is at the very end.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what the emailers point is. All seems to have worked out fine. Being Kurt's bodyguard would have just led to more losses for him.
ReplyDeleteThey booked him correctly. Wrestling booking 101 is pretty effective with the right acts.
ReplyDeleteThey did it perfectly; with a guy as ridiculously strong and fast, like a cheat code come to life, he should've came in and destroyed everyone and everything in sight, which is exactly what he did. Bodyguard? Does Brock Lesnar ever come off as someone who'd ever be a bodyguard to anyone? With his mat credentials coming in, he'd rather just straight up challenge Kurt, which again, why his rise in 2002 was fucking awesome; there was no stopping the rookie, even plowing through Hogan, Rock, and Taker.
ReplyDeleteAs soon as they introduced the sci-fi stuff with Urkel (esp. with turning himself into Stefan), it feels like another show entirely. Watch an episode from season one then realize that family would eventually go back in time and fight pirates.
ReplyDeleteI'm still stunned Hogan -- HOGAN! -- let Lesnar destroy the fuck out of him. That's what made him for me, even moreso than beating Rock the next week or so at SS; seeing Brock stand dominant over Hogan, wiping his blood all over his chest in glee, is still one of the most awesome visuals for me in wrestling.
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that if he had put over 1000 people, putting over Brock wouldn't've meant as much?
ReplyDeleteMaybe 1,000 is too much, but maybe a couple of more people over the previous 20 years wouldn't have been too bad. We're basically saying that Brock got a special rub because Hogan's a self-centered dick.
ReplyDeleteI get the impression he likes actually wrestling and performing in the ring, but didn't like the travel, the politics, and all that came with it.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the reason Punk isn't front and center in this storyline is simple. Because then it would be a Punk story, not a Bryan story.
ReplyDeleteVince wanted to have Hogan put over younger talent. I think Hogan realized he wasn't dealing with ATM Eric, and if he wanted an extended ruin he'd have to play ball with some people, especially for someone being pushed as heavily as Brock.
ReplyDeleteHe put over Warrior, who also flaked shortly after.
ReplyDeleteThe feud was built around a woman making false sexual assault claims against the Undertaker. Or something like that. It was just brutal television.
ReplyDeleteAnd, if I remember correctly, Undertaker balked at jobbing to him at the September PPV so they did a horrible double countout that got booed out of the building.
They had to put Big Show over at Survivor Series to basically hit the reset button on Lesnar since the Taker feud f'd up all the momentum
Threadjack: yea this is an amateur question which im sure was discussed but was it ever disclosed who the original driver who hit Stone Cold with a car was supposed to be? Was it always Rikishi? Off today so was rewatching Unforgiven 2000 where they talk about it.
ReplyDeleteWrong thread bro.
ReplyDeleteDude's built like a tank, absolutely destroys people, and gives no fucks.
ReplyDeleteBland?
last TWO seasons actually, which were both atrocious.
ReplyDeleteThanks. This makes sense as I remember hearing that Austin vetoed a program with him also.
ReplyDeletePeople forget that from his April debut up until around the time he bearhugged Hogan, Brock was not getting much of a crowd reaction at all. Most of the crowd would just chant Goldberg at him. It wasn't until he beat Hogan and Rock that the crowd finally bought into Brock.
ReplyDeleteAlso, about that face turn. I think that the WWE just rode the wave after Brock got that huge face reaction against The Rock at Summerslam. I dont think they originally planned to make him a face that early in his title run.
Almost tempted to go back and rewatch that ppv to see if I can find some of those veiled hints.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly that ppv is the most mediocre affair of all time, littered with **3/4 star matches.
I thought that was when Gunn initially became Mr. Ass but I might be misremembering.
ReplyDeleteYea, you might but correct. I have no idea really.
ReplyDeleteI was 10 years old when Brock debuted the night after WMX8 and he IMMEDIATELY frightened the shit out of me upon his first appearance.
ReplyDeleteThe final episode was just the worst. A slap in the face to all of the viewers.
ReplyDeleteWhen it was reported he turned down the program with Jeff Jarrett it was reported he also turned down a program with Billy Gunn prior to that, so sometime before July 1999 I'm guessing.
ReplyDeleteThey did do an angle on Raw in 1998 where nobody would defy McMahon and be Austin's partner and Billy Gunn ended up doing it...which didn't go anywhere.
And in Boy Meets World's last season, Eric went from being a zany underachiever to a functioning retard.
ReplyDeleteThe jacked up guy with tattoos and trunks who's supposed to be a big deal because he's jacked up and strong wasn't exciting until a couple of months in when Brock showed he wasn't just another big guy.
ReplyDeleteIts amazing to think that he debuted after WM 18 and was main eventing WM 19. I dont think this ever happens again...ever.
ReplyDeleteHe came in with Paul Heyman. Feuded with the Hardyz. Killed them. Steamrolled through KotR and RVD, then beat the Rock. In the span of a few months. Hardly another guy.
ReplyDeleteDidn't that happen with Alberto Del Rio? Well, in fairness, it wasn't the last match main event....but still, a huge push.
ReplyDeleteIt might have. I meant like "last match, face of the company" main event.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Death-Clutch-Determination-Domination-Survival/dp/0062023128/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380058240&sr=1-1&keywords=death+clutch
ReplyDeleteHe actually put over a ton of people during that period. He put over Angle clean (tapping out....as a face). He put over Rock and Triple H clean. He dropped the title to Undertaker after only holding it for a month. He had to "cheat" to beat Jericho. He "lowered" himself to a tag team title reign with Edge and lost to Christian and Lance Storm.
ReplyDeleteBrock getting that over owed so, so much to The Rock's professionalism and willingness to take a fall.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone else of similar stature in the company (sorry, This Business) had been holding the title - HHH, Undertaker, etc - there would have probably been a screwy ending or two, and a few more matches before Brock won the title. Or it may have been a lot less clean, and nowhere near as decisive.
Rock just took a beating, got killed in a surprisingly short match and had no problem making Brock look like a million dollars, a guy who wasn't just throwing around rag doll Jeff Hardy or beating up a senior citizen, but DESTROYING the top guy in the company in 15 minutes.
Agreed. Brock had the backing of those in power, mainly Vince, and was on his way regardless, but Rock did make him look great and really cemented his status. I
ReplyDeleteI think the main event of XIX was meant to be Hogan/McMahon, but Kurt Angle's fucked up neck it a match he was very much risking paralysis to do got his match bumped up to the "main" main event.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that was one of those things they were going to figure out a year later.... like, they had a year to figure out who was going to be the guy that ran Austin over. I don't think it was "always" Rikishi or "originally" Billy Gunn, it was "blonde hair guy for now, figure it out in a year if/when Austin comes back."
ReplyDeleteAnd it was always gonna be HHH as the mastermind in the end because you know, it ALWAYS comes back to HHH.
I remember reading either Keller or Meltzer (I forget which one I was buying at the time) and they reported kinda the same thing...that Vince was really thinking about putting that on last, and that the McMahon/Hogan stuff was getting a huge amount of tv time during the build.
ReplyDeleteI cant buy that Vince was ever really that close to going on last though.
We got two ****+ matches out of the deal.
ReplyDeleteWe also got two HHH-wank fests.
Call it even I guess.
He put over HHH, Angle, and Brock. I think Jericho too, maybe.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Scott selected this one after reading his third email rebooking the Invasion.
ReplyDeleteThat's specifically WHY Rock came back the month before - because neither Trips nor Taker wanted to put him over (or at least, put him over so strongly).
ReplyDeleteHell, right after winning the title, he feuded with Taker, with the first match resulting in a "no contest" and the second giving Taker a bunch of disadvantages going into the match.
Agreed - he obviously takes the performance itself very seriously, he just doesn't want any part of the everything else that goes into being a "WWE Superstar".
ReplyDeleteWhich he became, anyway.
Call me crazy, but I thought season 7 was pretty good (with Laguerta on the trail), and 5 wasn't bad (though not as good as some others).
ReplyDelete6 was boring as fuck, though, and this last season was just completely nonsensical.
In conclusion, John Lithgow rules.
There have been a ton of guys that fit that description, most of whom have been bland.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think history has been kind to Brock - the same way many people remember Austin's first utterance of "Austin 3:16" as propelling straight to the top, many people seem to remember Brock being this big, hot act upon arrival.
ReplyDeleteNow, yes, his debut was awesome, and his stuff with the Hardys was pretty impressive due to the crazy bumping they all did (those chair-shots Brock took TO THE FACE were just completely insane), but he also was just another brawler that showed too much ass. We kept hearing about his amateur skills, but he never utilized them, and in pretty much every match for the first few months, he'd do that stupid spot where he tries to shoulder-block someone in the corner, only for the opponent to dodge and Brock going into the ring-post. His nerdy haircut and complete lack of mic-skills were also big hindrances to popularity. His "King of the Ring" win and subsequent feud/match with RVD were not well-received. There was a backlash against him.
It really wasn't until the Rock match that he got a good ovation, and I'd be willing to bet that that had a lot to do with being on Long Island - we know talent, and we love Paul Heyman. If that match had taken place anywhere else, I don't think Brock would have gotten as much love.
Realistically, Brock really didn't come into his own until "WM19" - that's when he started having good-to-great matches and getting more comfortable on the mic. The potential was always there, and he was certainly going to be "the next big thing" regardless, but he most certainly was not this hot new act - he occasionally got big pops (his debut, "Summerslam, 2002"), but they didn't stick until about a year after his debut.
Agreed; I went into a longer explanation above.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a lot of revisionist history with Brock Lesnar. We know him now as the UFC legit badass and an automatic draw, but in 2002 he was an OVW project getting pushed REALLY fast without really showcasing any of the NCAA wrestler stuff. He was a Vader-style monster, which was awesome and obviously worked out in the end, but the Brock Lesnar we know today was not even on the radar yet. Brock was heating up by summer 2002, but he was also really green still.
ReplyDeleteI actually would have been fine with the "what you saw isn't what actually happened" finale if it were confined only to the last season. To me, writing happy fantasies in order to escape the crushing reality of her husband's death would have had HUGE emotional resonance.
ReplyDeleteThe problem was that they completely nullified the ENTIRE show. Revealing that her daughters had been dating the opposite guys, or that her sister was gay, had ZERO positive impact on the show. Unlike the "it was all a dream" variation, where everything goes back to normal when the character wakes up, this actually meant that things were NOT normal, and never were; EVERYTHING we watched was a lie.
There were absolutely no positive attributes to ending the show the way they did. She just felt like mind-fucking the audience for who-knows-what reason.