Was curious about the blogs thoughts on this after hearing it talked about on a podcast.
WTF happens if Rock never goess Hollywood? Does Cena ever "get the ball?" Are we destined for Rock vs HHH to headline like WM 21-23? Do fans eventually get bored of him like Cena? Does his gimmick start to look outdated? Do him and Hunter get into a pissing contest about who has more stroke in the WWE? Of all "what ifs" ive heard, I find this the most fascinating. Thanks
I think that Cena was getting the ball no matter what. Once he got over with the rapper gimmick, the crowd was in love with him. As far as WM 21-23, Rock vs. HHH probably could have headlined one of them. Rock can easily transform from heel to face so he could keep himself fresh in that regard.
What does everyone else think?
Rock's gimmick was becoming outdated. It's part of the reason why he turned heel. It wasn't just that fans were mad that he was choosing acting over wrestling, at least a small part of it was that by the end of 2001/2002, he was relying on his catchphrases (which were growing tired) and pandering to the crowd. And his promos became far more light hearted/jokey than they had been and it seemed like he lost his "coolness edge" that made him so awesome. It's kind of like the difference between his promo from his return to Raw a couple of years ago and his most recent run against Punk and Cena.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting Bayless. I think the most interesting aspect of this would have been the HHH/Rock dynamic that would have been at play. I don't know their relationship now but were always in different camps and dont think theres any love lost between the two. Seeing how the Rock, who would gave been by far the biggest star in WWE, would get along with HHH, who was coming into increased power behind the scenes, for those years between like WM 21-25 would be fsscinating to me.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's any scenario where Rock doesn't go Hollywood. WWE surely would have used him for one of their own film projects, and no doubt would have attracted notice with that performance.
ReplyDeleteMaybe WWE would have gotten a bigger piece of the pie in that scenario, but regardless, The Rock's days as just a rassler were always numbered.
Interesting question. Had he stayed on Smackdown, I honestly think they would have called it The Smackdown Seven. He was getting scary good in the ring by 2002, and a series with any of those guys would have been fantastic. A true Rock/Orton and/or Rock/Batista series would have been cool to see too, just based on how they'd book it alone. Rock vs. Taker after Taker's in-ring renaissance in 06 would have been a great styles clash. Also, maybe, just maybe, we would have finally got Rock vs. Shawn Michaels.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think Cena comes along no matter what. Whether Rock would adapt or stagnate I think is moot as HHH would have found ways to mitigate Rocky over the long term. I don't think he'd give it up though, maybe adapt into a Jericho style contract where he'd come and go as he pleases.
ReplyDeleteCena isn't the loser in this case, HHH is. Cena was going to come on when he did, there was nothing getting in the way of that train and even HHH was smart enough to just get out of the way. But HHH's time at the top definitely gets either eaten up by Rock hanging on or diminished in some way.
ReplyDeleteWhy are we so sure Cena automatically takes Rocks spot at the top? Look how long Vince has stuck with Cena, why wouldnt he have done the same with the Rock? Id think Vince would be more hesistant to move Rock out of the top spot then Cena. I guess Cena coming up behind the Rock was more talented then anyone who came up behind Cena...
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily that Cena TAKES the spot, but I'd guess HHH sabotages Rock every chance he'd get as he'd see Rocky as a contemporary challenge whereas he could "pass the torch" to Cena
ReplyDeleteI think you have the answer yourself. Cena was legitimately hot and the WWE's problem (self inflicted in a lot of ways) was that nobody behind Cena was ever that hot.
ReplyDeleteThe guys that got serious support from the fans were Punk and Bryan and they both got a chance at the top or near the top. Vince is willing to push a top star down and out when it's time. He pushed Austin damn near into the midcard around when he left for good because he had options. Cena was going to be a real option who needed exploring and pushing no matter who was on top at the time.
Yea, they did get runs at the top but I dont think they were ever really that close to supplanting Cena as "the guy."
ReplyDeleteThat to me is the most fascinating aspect of this...how the power struggle plays out between HHH and the Rock.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely, only away around it is if Rock goes to Smackdown and kind of takes the Taker role there. Maybe speeding up Undertaker's move to part time
ReplyDeleteGood point. I think if WWE was just about wrestling then Cena would have been booked way differently in the past 7 years. But they don't just say they're "entertainment" they actually mean that. Keeping Cena at the top now is different than Hogan or Austin because he fits the company's plan.
ReplyDeleteBecause they're staying kid friendly and dealing more in "entertainment" for the next few years Cena has to stay up top. Punk and Bryan can carry the 'rasslin part for a few months at a time but Cena's the guy until he breaks down for good.
Rock was WWE's greatest heel. He was to WWE what Ric Flair was to WCW/NWA. Rock very likely could have been in the same situation Cena is now if kept as a face.
ReplyDeleteRock would have gone Hollywood anyway; HHH would have fucked him over repeatedly in the name of trying to drive him out and eventually Rock would go "fuck you, I'm out of here" retire/become Roddy Piper 2.0 anyway. Rock bailed before HHH could bring him down and given enough time, HHH would have found a way to destroy the Rock out of petty jealousy.
ReplyDeleteThe real question would be the butterfly effect for the internet darling set. Does Rock staying around mean Eddie Guerero doesn't die? And if Eddie lives, does this affect Benoit's ultimate end? And if Benoit never goes all family annihilator and stays an active wrestler, does that utterly and completely fuck over CM Punk? For better or for worse, Punk broke the glass ceiling effectively capitalizing on the IWC needing someone to get behind after Benoit turned monster and if Benoit doesn't die and hangs around, would Punk be able to take his place? Similarly, what about Danial Bryan? Does he get a chance to capitalize on Punk's ascension or does he become a lowly jobber who Miz beats the shit out of whenever they need to get Miz cheap heat?
see The Grandfather Paradox
ReplyDeleteCena was originally booked upon his debut in 2002 as a force, someone who would slap Vince and show he's a new player. Guess who nixed that idea hours before the taping when after he hears about it? HHH. Yes, he said "what has he done to deserve the Vince rub," so HHH was manipulating the cena scenario very early on.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, HHH kind of had a point. What did Cena do to deserve the rub at that time?
ReplyDeleteRock's contract ended in 2005 and NOBODY in management approached him about re-signing. Rock was actually hurt by this, as he thought he deserved at least a phone call that ended his wwe career. Many backstage saw this as McMahon and HHH showing Rock up for not sticking with the company, I.e. who needs him anyway. It actually wasnt until the 2008 induction of his family in the hall of fame to get him back in the fold.
ReplyDeleteCena was being groomed while still The Prototype in UPW. He worked out with a good friend of mine at Gold's Venice and we ended up having a great conversation at a BBQ. Always seemed to have the monster push coming.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more. Wwe saw it as the fans being mad at him for leaving--it was actually the geeky non funny comedy character they tried to make him at the time. Sound familiar cena?
ReplyDeleteBenoit probably meets an early death anyway, because of the effects of CTE. That diving headbutt was worse than a chairshot.
ReplyDeleteI see your point, but if you're gonna make a star then you can't see things that way. What did HHH do to get a push upon his debut, or Angle, or lesnar, Goldberg? Sometimes its not about dues, but making money on potential. Jealousy prevents it.
ReplyDeleteHe was actually on the verge of being released in late 2002. Some in management, I.e. HHH and friends didn't see him as anything special. Cena is very lucky Jim Barnett and big steph went to bat for him. Court Bauer talked about this recently, regarding HHH's lack of vision for talent.
ReplyDeleteHHH didn't get a huge push. He was brought in as a mid-card heel. Angle and Lesnar were special cases, because both were big time amateur wrestlers (Olympic champ in Angle's case) and had already built major names. I'm assuming you are talking about WCW Goldberg. He hadn't done anything, but he was a big, ripped guy who could move well and they were looking for anything to play off the NWO. He had the look to pull off super face, so they ran with it.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Cena had dominated a big market regional indy in UPW, which was a West Coast territory, based in L.A. He already had a huge following. Plus, the dude has exactly the look the WWF wanted. He's absolutely huge, ripped and can pass a steroid test (not saying he's clean or not, but if he does juice, he does it in small enough quantities to not get in trouble). Yet, he can move and keep up a decent work rate. He was always going to get a major push - sort of like The Rock did when he came onto the scene. The difference is that Cena had a little better character development - though the rapper thing was still stupid.
I look at it like using a high draft pick on some unknown random guy. In this case it all worked out in the end, most of the time it doesn't. I'm just saying that while I don't agree with HHH here (or disagree with you), I can certainly understand the thinking behind that decision.
ReplyDeleteAlso, when you say Goldberg, do you mean his WCW debut, or his WWE debut?
In hindsight, the Prototype gimmick was something that would have done Cena far more for his career than the rapper gimmick. Cena as the Prototype had a nice Sting-like vibe to him that would have eliminated a good amount of complaints about Cena once he became top dog. The rapper thing, while saving his job with the WWE, quickly boxed him in with a character that was inevitably going to backfire on him, especially with TPTB refusing to allow Cena the luxury of going heel to freshen it up/restore his edge.
ReplyDeletePrototype John Cena would have been an awesome throwback babyface top guy these last 6-7 years. And Punk could easily have stayed a villain, the Flair to Cena's Sting in a manner that would have allowed Cena to stay strong against Punk while allowing Punk to have a rival who wasn't so hateable that you found yourself rooting for Punk over the good guy.
To varying degrees, HHH had been pretty powerful in Vince's ear since at least Montreal. He might not have been what he is now, but he had plenty of power to screw over young guys if he felt like it. Or old guys, according to Bam-Bam and others.
ReplyDeleteIt's a travesty we never got Rock/Michaels. Would have been absolute legendary; great talkers, great workers (Michaels especially, but Rock's no slouch), and they had some real life heat, too, which usually seems to bring out the best in both of them (HBK vs. Bret Hart and Austin, Rock vs. HHH). Definite ***** potential, and one of the few pairings I'd like to see/trust in an Iron Man or Three Stages of Hell match.
ReplyDeleteConnecting Punk and Benoit is kind of weird. Benoit was already 40 and by the time Punk got his first real push (I don't know if I even want to call him winning the WHC the first time a push with what happened afterwards), he'd be gone. Not to mention the two guys have absolutely nothing in common in ring or on the stick.
ReplyDeleteI'm also not sure why Eddie would still be alive. If he was 100% on the level the night/morning he died, it was just "natural" causes and he was a ticking time bomb. The only way he'd still be alive is if the doctors took the bajillion hints that something was wrong with him and shut him down. So he wouldn't be working anyway and this would have nothing to do with Rock.
And then he came back with one of the greatest heel characters they've ever had. That's the catch with Rock, he's a better heel than a face. Yet he's so over that his heel act turns him back to face. They could have gone on with this almost infinitely. And if he came back again now and played the Hollywood dick heel character again, all would be forgiven.
ReplyDeleteSince I'm criticizing everyone else's, I'll try and put some out there to be criticized.
ReplyDeleteAs pointed out in the OP, obviously he would have worked with Trips in a WM ME. It's also very likely that Benoit does not get the gold watch, or does not get it the way he did.
JBL's reign may not have happened, as well. They could have him work with Trips at 20 and either win and lose it back down the line fairly quick, or lose. And then when Eddie flaked, they could have just turned him back heel for that run to eventually put over Cena. JBL did well with it, but if you had the choice of the two....
I do think Eddie's push wouldn't have been much different, he got over and they wanted him pushed to get a demo. They've been doing it ever since so there's no way that doesn't happen.
Jericho definitely gets another run before he walks out. Rock would have gone into a program with him again and put him over. Maybe he would have stayed, as well.
Would have been hard to put Cena and Batista up the card at the same time. Makes you wonder which one they'd go with if they could only choose one, given the politics.
Speaking of politics, it's also possible his stint wouldn't have gone on that long just because of politics. Could see him get tired of it and then crossing over later. Say what you want, but he had crossover written all over him. If he didn't get hot in Hollywood he would have eventually anyway.
And no, HBK/Rock doesn't happen. I think there was something deep seeded there and it just wouldn't happen. They could have done it on a few occasions and didn't.
If Rock didn't go hollywood I would have had Rock v HBK, as much as Angle vs HBK would have always been the better choice, they wouldn't have passed up that opportunity. 22 would have likely given us Cena/Rock early or Rock/HHH (with the title match being Edge/Cena), wm 23 I'd have gone with Rock/Taker.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah I agree with his longetivity being vastly overestimated. Fans would have turned on him sooner rather than later, the main reason people cheered for him this recent go around was pure nostalgia. No one other than kids genuinely finds his dated shtick entertaining anymore.
I know it was probably reported this way but I find it impossible to believe that there were no discussions between Rock and management about his contract status. There might not ever been a formal offer, probably bc Vince knew he wasnt going to stay and he wanted to save face, but the notion that both sides didnt know where the other stood on returning/contract/money seems riduclious.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree his act lost a little of its entertainment for us, he was still on a different level then everyone else (except maybe punk) during his run, excluding in ring work.
ReplyDeleteI can think of a ton of guys with "a look" who never got over.
ReplyDeleteYup. That heel character was tremendous. Just so smug. And I'd say that heel character was more unlikable than his Corporate Champion heel character and could have allowed for longer heel runs if he stayed for a while.
ReplyDeleteHasn't it been confirmed that Rock not resigning was one of MANY of Johnny Ace's boneheaded moves?
ReplyDeleteSerioiusly, how that guy kept his job as long as he did still baffles me. Is there ANYONE on the roster that was brought in by Ace?
what are you talking about? That heel character was hilarious. he was carrying every show he was on and was going to turn himself face through sheer charisma bomb if he had stuck around past goldberg.
ReplyDeleteCourt and others have said that Ace was really a bastard when it came to messing with talent. If some in power had a problem with talent, ace would play games with them, even giving them wrong booking info so they wouldn't be at events and such.
ReplyDeleteWhich podcast? Mark Henry on Jay Mohr's show was really good. We learned that D-Lo helped him come up with the Sexual Chocolate name after watching Coming to America.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Cena, when he comes back from this injury, he's going to be a legitimate babyface.
ReplyDeleteIt was an older Place to Be pod. Theyre one of go to gym podcasts
ReplyDeleteFor 2 minutes. See his Royal Rumble surprise return. Fans are legit happy to see him then 1) remember they hate him or 2) remember it is cool to boo him
ReplyDeleteAs others have said, perhaps the most interesting point of the whole scenario would have been the way the Rock/Trips (allegedly) real life feud played out. While I can definitely see Trips continuing to sabotage - or at least, TRY to sabotage Rock - I think the fact that Hollywood was always knocking on Rock's door would have leveled the playing field. Rock could basically say "give me everything I want, or I'm leaving". If anything, Rock's presence probably would have evened out Trips' attempts to hold others down.
ReplyDeleteRock had other options, whereas Trips really didn't.
Hell, things may have actually been BETTER for many newer guys on the roster, with Rock willing to put them over, as opposed to Trips trying to siphon heat off of them. Would Punk have gotten thrown out of his own story-line so soon after the "Pipebomb" and "Summer of Punk"? Doubtful. Rock would have probably stepped up and volunteered to make Punk look like a million bucks.
Well then the fans are morons. Cena will be siding with Bryan in this feud.
ReplyDeleteThey're pretty solid. I'll listen to that or the mlw pod at night while going to bed.
ReplyDeleteWhich is what a lot of people are afraid of - not that Cena himself is the problem, but Vince may not be able to keep himself from positioning Cena as the star and Bryan as his trusty side-kick.
ReplyDeleteI know. I just doubt fans will really get behind him after his initial return
ReplyDeleteLegit concern. My hope is that Bryan is firmly established by then
ReplyDeleteYea man. The Kevin Kelly ones are fantastic.
ReplyDeleteI remember him and Matt Hardy having beef right before and after the Edge and Lita stuff went down.
ReplyDeleteIt was funny, after Ross was relieved of his services as VP of Talent Relations, I joked that there should be an "Ace Report" on WWE.com.
Wasn't 'What if" supposed to be Fuj's segment?
ReplyDeleteIt was hilarious but not in the, "I'm a total ass kicking badass and I'm too cool for school" sorta way. He probably would have gotten cheered just by being better than everyone but from a pure character perspective, it was far more obnoxious and less likable than his Corporate Champion character.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair to HHH, Cena still debuted by facing Kurt Angle and giving him all he could handle in a great 15-minute match. Not a shabby debut.
ReplyDeleteThis is such a monumental "what if" that it's hard to fathom the repercussions. Don't forget, Rock's first movie was in 2001, so that's a LOT of history to write. He missed four months in 2001, April-July 2002 then a brief return to win the belt and put over Brock, then out from September 2002-January 2003 when he returned for the Wrestlemania 19 build and "Hollywood Rock." That was the end of Rock as even a part-timer. He put over Goldberg in April 2003 then didn't return until February 2004 and the Rock n' Sock feud with Evolution. He was gone after WM20 and made only sporadic cameos for the next year-plus before disappearing for good.
ReplyDeleteSo essentially you're completely revamping everything from April 2001 to the present day. Rock is still only 41 years old...if he doesn't leave to go Hollywood (though probably with a couple of time-off breaks), he's very likely still wrestling today.
Oh, one other thing to keep in mind: Rock would probably still have been in "ring shape" to this day, and also would have progressed even further as an in-ring competitor.
ReplyDeleteWho knows how many 4* and 5* matches he could have had over the last ten years. Rock/Cena? Rock/Punk? He certainly wouldn't have been sucking wind and tearing muscles.