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THE LIGHTNING ROUND!

I don't think you've had a lightning round in a while, but I was just wondering about your musings on the following gimmicks and personas:

--Dr. of Thuganomics John Cena

Loved it at the time, although I’d probably have gotten sick of it just as fast as I did with Super-Cena.  But yeah, I was all aboard the Cena train when he was getting the rocket push.

--Reverend D-Von

It was more clever than interesting.

--Legend Killer Randy Orton circa 2004

Should have been even bigger before Undertaker kind of derailed it.  It was a tremendous concept, though. 

--Hollywood Heel Rock (I know, it's Rocky, what's not to love, but how did you think this stacked up among his character runs?)

Brilliant, high-concept trolling from the master.  He did it just to prove he could.  Unfortunately he never had a chance to draw on top with it. 

--The New Age Outlaws

Huge fan, but much like everyone else I was burned on them by the time they did the reunion and farewell in 2000.  It was a gimmick that lasted the perfect amount of time and drew all the money it was going to. 

--The SmackDown Six (the three-way tag team feuds between Angle, Rey, Edge, Benwho, and Los Guerreros) 

Only thing that kept me sane in 2002. 

--nWo in WWE

Waste of time and money. 

--RAW GM Eric Bischoff

Should have drawn millions in a deeply-layered meta-textual war with Vince McMahon as revenge for WCW’s death, but they hugged in his first appearance and he was just a effective but clownish heel instead. 

--Rated-R Superstar Edge circa Banging Lita

Well we all know how I feel about Lita from that era.  I was so far burned out on wrestling in general that I never really got into Edge’s run on top, to be honest. 

--Dancing Lance Storm (cabbage-patching face turn after Austin called him "Boring"; a try at personality, embarrassing, or just plain forgettable? I actually admit to having a soft spot for this one)

Barely even remember that one. 

--The Hurricane

He was right where he should have been with that gimmick. 

--Right to Censor

I really wish the people involved would have been better, because it was an awesome pure heel gimmick in a time when “cool heels” where dominating and annoying everyone. 

--Alliance Heel Stone Cold

I believe this falls under the Invasion / Heel Cena / Montreal rule. 

Bonus question: Over/under the unification of the world titles lasting longer than the apartment switch on Friends?

They’re jumping through so many hoops to avoid actually advertising and/or promising a unification that you can only think it’ll be the belt-swapping scenario everyone has guessed.

Comments

  1. I love Steve Austin matches from 2001 so much it hurts.

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  2. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 8:47 PM

    Since I sent the e-mail, I figure it's my duty to remind everyone about Dancing Lance Storm:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mnF_vVSlcw



    And that being well-endowed was also part of that gimmick, like a Diva would see him in the locker room and be like @_@

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  3. I liked Edge's heel run.
    The WWE nWo was the shits, except for the skits involving Booker and Goldust

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  4. I loved The legend killer gimmick at the time... It's been almost 10 years tho, what actual legends did he go over amd feud with though besides Foley? I know he feuded wirh Taker, but Taker won that geud.

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  5. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 8:50 PM

    The only thing I liked about WWE nWo was the promo where Rock ripped into them backstage ("Big Daddy Cool, Diesel! TOOT TOOT! TOOT!")

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  6. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 8:52 PM

    He actually had a pretty cool shirt where the back of it read like a concert tour listing of all the WWE alum he had RKO'd or got the better of in a match, but then again, Orton usually had the best shirts.

    http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a367/bentley283/fbad1164.jpg

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  7. --Dr. of Thuganomics John Cena

    Really what Cena should still be. We'd still be tired of him, but not nearly as much.

    --Reverend D-Von

    Stupid

    "--Legend Killer Randy Orton circa 2004"

    Good gimmick, but it's Orton

    --Hollywood Heel Rock (I know, it's Rocky, what's not to love, but how did you think this stacked up among his character runs?)

    Unlike the Austin turn, this one worked as some we tiring of Rock's face act. Worked because IT MADE SENSE.

    --The New Age Outlaws

    Nobody thought that it would work. It was Rockabilly and the New Double J. A fun team but damn if I wasn't burned out on their schtick by the end.

    --The SmackDown Six (the three-way tag team feuds between Angle, Rey, Edge, Benwho, and Los Guerreros)

    I wish Vince had just let Heyman run Smackdown and throw all the guys he didn't want to be bothered with there.

    --nWo in WWE

    Only way it could've worked is if it was revealed they had been sent by Vince to WCW to destroy it.

    --RAW GM Eric Bischoff

    The beginning of the never ending parade of authority figures that plague wrestling to this day.

    --Rated-R Superstar Edge circa Banging Lita

    Never bought it. What exactly did he do that was more than PG-13?

    --Dancing Lance Storm (cabbage-patching face turn after Austin called him "Boring"; a try at personality, embarrassing, or just plain forgettable? I actually admit to having a soft spot for this one)

    Horrible. The trying to give a pure wrestler a wacky personality never works. Sell the strengths....


    --The Hurricane

    Some fun stuff with the Rock, but the rest of the time it was typical lame WWE comedy.


    --Right to Censor

    One of those gimmicks where Vince tries to get witty.


    --Alliance Heel Stone Cold

    Austin could make anything entertaining, but the heel turn was a bad idea. People just didn't want to boo him and aligning with Vince was the worst way to do it.


    "Bonus question: Over/under the unification of the world titles lasting longer than the apartment switch on Friends?"

    I'm thinking they may stick with this for the long haul.

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  8. One other thing...I was in undergrad when Bischoff debuted as Raw GM so didn't watch like from 02-03. Was Bischoff being Raw GM and aligning with Vince the plan the entire time? It seems so easy...give Vince Raw, give Bischoff Smackdown and write storyline that parody or incorporate their Monday Night Wars history. That's all you had to do.

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  9. You had that with Stephanie for smackdown and Bischoff for raw. The best part (only good one for that matter) was Bischoff as the preacher in the Billy/Chuck wedding.

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  10. On the "McMahon" DVD, Stephanie pretty much acknowledges that all that Vince was thinking of was the sheer pleasure of having "this asshole working for me."

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  11. That's retarded. Nobody gives 2 shits about Bischoff vs Steph

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  12. Yea, that sounds about right.

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  13. Good news. Apparently I am having a feud with SHough610... and am not doing well... but at least it is contained to one thread... or some shit.

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  14. Oh baby! That dude sucks. What thread?

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  15. So if they swap belts, that's another 2 world titles for each of them (unification just means one). So Cena might beat Flair's record over the next year and won them in about 11 years total (Flair won them in about 20 years total). Orton might also beat Flair's record over the next few years. Holy shit.

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  16. My fav Booker T/Goldust skit was where they dance and then Booker thinks Xpac is coming and he kicks him with a Booker T bam sound effect and realizes its just a pretzel salesman and comes back to grab a pretzel....

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  17. I have no idea... the other site was talking about it... Fuj asked if it was really me and some guy named "mickfoley" who really seems to hate us more than the rest posted the picture of Vince revealing himself as the higher power which led me to believe it was him posing as me somewhere... I asked how I was faring in my "feud" and Dougie told me "Not Well"

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  18. Records are made to be broken.....

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  19. Vince hated Bischoff so much he booked him to make out with his daughter....

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  20. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 9:28 PM

    Well, considering that had zero payoff, maybe it was just Vince entertaining himself, like how he wanted to run an incest angle with Steph.

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  21. Ha. Wait how are you "feuding" if youre not even posting?

    I've never been there...what a strange little world it seems to be.

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  22. WWE target demographic response to all of these:

    Who?

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  23. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 9:32 PM

    To be fair, most of them weren't even born yet.

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  24. I have no idea. My first post there was asking how I was doing in my feud... and I don't recall feuding with him here, so I think this guy made an user name similar to mine and has been feuding under my name or some shit.


    IDK I don't really get the joke there a lot of the time so I might be totally wrong.

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  25. Wow. So someone made a name like "ParallEx1978" and started posting shit pretending to be you? Well imitation is the sincerest for of flattery...

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  26. What about Chris Walker?

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  27. That's the only thing I can figure... wasn't about to spend time looking for it.

    Yeah I guess there was one time he went and whined about me being a misogynist so I trolled him by saying unrelated misogynistic things... he bit on the first couple, realized what I was doing, and stopped biting as anyone would with an obvious trolling. That was like a month ago... if that is what they are talking about that is almost as sad as copying my name.

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  28. No one can get enough Chris Walker

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  29. It is a message board rub by someone who steals people's avatars to make his own enoticons so this seems about right. It's so funny this blog has created a spin off of people that hate us. Like what's this dude "mickfoleys" beef?

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  30. nwo never worked in WWF because nobody wanted to boo Hogan. I know that there were a lot of fans who followed both WCW and WWF at the same time but man there was NO way anyone wanted to boo him at that point. Especially since Rock had been back long enough where the fans had gotten sick of him. After the Invasion angle he was the third wheel behind Austin and Jericho.

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  31. idk. Something about how we all complain about something we watch but keep watching and we are fat

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  32. Restarting a tag match into a bigger tag match TWICE! and Teddy Long doesn't get the honors to do it? What's this world coming to?

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  33. Vince is pretty creative when it comes to his daughter, I would love to hear all the rejected ideas of his when it came to using Steph...

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  34. Jumpin' Jim Brunzell in a loincloth.

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  35. Man, the Legend Killer was such a great gimmick, but I wish they'd given it to somebody who could have sold it on the mic. Edge would have been awesome, or CM Punk.


    Also, it's been 7 years. Somebody else should get a similar gimmick. Tweak it slightly, sell it as "hunting" the old timers who are taking up space at the top of the card. Have them start by running through Kane/Big Show/Goldust, and working their way up to going after HHH and Taker (and whoever else). Every time Brock/HBK/Jericho/Rock comes back, go after them, too. Any member of the Shield would be great for that gimmick, as would Ziggler or Bryan.

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  36. Legend Killer Randy Orton: I LOVE a "Legend Killer" type gimmick, especially using a guy who so perfectly fits the silver-spoon, cocky, star quarterback type douchebag that Orton played so well. I think they should have run with Orton as a "Legend Killer" even longer. The WM21 Undertaker job didn't have to derail him as long as he comes out strong in subsequent PPV matches and beats Taker decisively before moving on. Burying Foley helped make Orton and I think they should have continued it with Flair, Hogan in '06, Michaels, and kept it up with Orton being the unbeatable hotshot dickhead heel--the prima donna everyone wants to see get his, but who is so naturally good that it takes someone else in his prime to dethrone him (Cena, Batista in '07) and avenge all the "legends".

    I think it could be done today with a guy like Ambrose or Cesaro even. They could even play up WWE's dependency on bringing back their "legends". Guys like Foley, HBK, Taker, Big Show, Kane, Dusty, even fucking Cena....all guys who are available to take beatings in the name of getting a new "legend killer" kind of guy over.

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  37. Absolutely agree. They can start with the Lawlers/Dusty/Goldust/Booker T level guys to kick it off, then destroy the Kanes and Big Shows of the world. Jericho, Michaels, etc. I'm a fan of Ambrose or Cesaro in this role, as I mention below

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  38. That was one of my favourite moments of that era. Call me naive, but I had no clue the preacher was Bischoff until he dropped his voice....I just assumed WWE had hired a really crappy actor.

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  39. I think they could have made a few bucks off of hot-shotting the Hogan face turn into a WWF vs. nWo tag at "Backlash" 2002. Hogan & Rock formed their little respect team. HHH was better off as a heel than the top babyface, so turn him as new leader of the nWo. Hogan & Rock can recruit Austin (who just faced Hall at WM18) and form a six-man tag for Backlash. Austin/Rock/Hogan vs. HHH/Hall/Nash (I think Nash was hurt, so sub in Big Show or X-Pac?) Otherwise, I agree that nWo didn't have much mileage in WWE

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  40. That Vince-Bischoff thing should have been a perfect catalyst for the Brand Extension/roster split thing. It didn't need to be called 'WCW' or anything, just Bischoff weaseling his way in to take half control of Vince's company. Keep it completely and utterly separate for YEARS without drafts or cross-overs or anything. Maybe a once-a-year war at Survivor series or something where each roster sends teams to represent them for bragging rights. The initial hug thing killed it DEAD.

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  41. Or HHH v. Vince, but that's not stopping them now, and it didn't stop them then.

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  42. That's what i said below. Can you imagine them playing off shit...like Bischoff "leaking" the upcoming Raws results or other little parody things from the Monday night wars. Would gave been great

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  43. I thought I was a loser for posting about wrestling on a message board… but the real losers are those douchebags who post about the posters here on ANOTHER message board…. it's like that episode of the Office where Dwight's character in Second Life was playing Second Life. But sadder.

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  44. Heel Steve Austin didn't have a great white-meat babyface to play off of for most of his run. Undertaker wasn't there, Jericho/Benoit weren't really ready… it was supposed to be HHH (you won't believe me when I tell you it would have worked, but IT WOULD HAVE WORKED) and Angle again was still too much of a dork to be the guy.

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  45. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 29, 2013 at 10:35 PM

    Seconded; that might be the best Scooby-Doo reveal they've ever done. Angle was still shit, but they pulled that part off well.

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  46. There was an episode of Smackdown in 2002 taped the day before Raw right around when Bischoff started out in WWE, and Metlzer had the internet all abuzz with speculation that Bischoff would spoil the show.


    But of course he didn't.

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  47. Somebody get Scott to accuse Chirs Walker of being a Nazi, let's see if he sends an email.

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  48. I promise if he does accuse me of being a Nazi, I will send him a STRONGLY worded email.

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  49. Didn't know that. That's what I was asking about below...it almost seems that they called an audible from the original storyline to go with the direction they went. I can't fathom they thought what they did was the best use of Bischoff.

    I wasnt following it at the time so wasn't aware if there was a backstory to why but played out the way it did

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  50. I think for nWo to work, they should have done nWo v. Rock/Austin/HHH at Mania X-8 for control of the company, then have HHH turn on Rock/Austin. HHH could have won the belt the next month at Backlash, pushed Hogan out and turned Hall/Nash into his lackies, feuded with Hogan or Austin for a month or two each.


    Actually I think the real reason the nWo was never going to work was Hall was too much of a drunk and Nash was too injury prone.

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  51. Title reign records are irrelevant today really.

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  52. I bet there's a therapist out there who has heard alot of Vinces ideas about Steph...

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  53. Absolutely. There was so much stuff they could have done. People didn't have to buy the whole "separate companies" thing. Just do the separate 'GM' thing where Bischoff has absolute control of half the roster and the production of one of the shows/some PPVs. They could have riffed on some of the Monday Night Wars stuff without it getting too cartoonish I think. Simple blurring of kayfabe/reality: Bischoff commandeers Vince's product and, rather than trying to reinvent WCW or "invade" or anything like that, he simply tries to compete with McMahon using his own brand.

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  54. Austin was supposed to be feuding with Flair on Raw (while Vince was on Smackdown doing… I can't remember what) but he flaked out and as a result a hastily booked Flair/McMahon match gave McMahon control of both Raw & Smackdown. This lasted for a bit until the brought Bischoff in to manage Raw and Steph in to manage Smackdown (because "the board of directors still wants two brands"). So the whole thing was kind of a "Plan B" to begin with (Flair lost Raw a few weeks before King of the Ring and Bischoff first appeared a few weeks after).

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  55. Exactly. With Nash getting hurt immediately and Hall having such a short shelf-life, it just was never going to work anyway. They got the big Rock-Hogan money match at least. I still think Austin-Hogan should have followed, but Austin was out before SummerSlam '02 anyway.

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  56. If they hadn't blown it all early with the Flair-Vince stuff and the Bischoff-Vince hug thing, they could have gone the route of the McMahon kids getting back at their dad by selling their "stock" to Bischoff as the ultimate "fuck you dad" revenge trip.

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  57. Now this is fun.


    I loved Thuganomics Cena. At the time I also loved Eminem and throwback jerseys and throwback caps. He dressed like I did, I thought that was cool. When they turned him face he came out wearing a hockey jersey with Chain Gang on the back and that was that - he was lame now.


    I didn't like Orton at first because he didn't seem ready for the push he was getting. I felt like I had to sit through the Rock/HHH/Angle years to get to the RVD/Jericho/Edge years, then suddenly I had this jackass shoved down my throat. I really didn't like Orton at all until 2008ish.


    Hollywood Rock was great.


    At the time I didn't care much about the Smackdown Six, as they were having great matches that really didn't seem to have any point for the most part. That's how I felt at the time at least. I think the perfect example is the Eddie/Edge match where they used a ladder - great match, but they're using the ladder just for the hell of it, and most of the matches were just for the hell of it. Don't get me wrong, some of those matches are classics I'll still watch but I wasn't thrilled with Smackdown as a whole just because the Guerreros and Edge/Rey might have a great match this week.


    The nWo was wasted - they were a group that invaded WCW with the implication that Vince was behind it, and when they come to WWE they do nothing in terms of storytelling. They're just a faction. They had a chance to add to the nWo story by having Vince admit to having been behind the nWo all along.


    I thought they missed the boat on Bishoff to. For one, I don't think he should have been the heel GM who sides with the heels - I thought they should have portrayed him as a ratings driven asshole who's goal was to make the show as good as it could be - the heelish edge being that he'd put wrestlers, heel or face, in dangerous, unfair situations to accomplish that. All the while he's trying to work himself into a greater position of power to overthrow Vince and take over his company.


    I loved Rated R Edge. It's a personal preference but I couldn't understand how Edge could seem as cool as he was - dresses like a rock-star, banging Lita - and fans would cheer the goofy idiot in the jean shorts over him. But that's me. Edge is literally 100% of the reason I went to see Smackdown in 2007 - the one where he found Benoit, probably two weeks Benoit Benoit'd his family.


    I never liked the Hurricane. Ever. I just didn't get the appeal.


    I didn't like RTC either. I get it, it's Vince taking a shot at the PTC or whoever it was at the time. The only part I liked was the implication that Stevie Richards was some sort of cult leader.


    I thought heel Austin was interesting from a creative standpoint - the badass rebel kicks everyone's ass for years until he suffers a near career ending injury. A year later he comes back and takes on the guy who masterminded his injury but loses. He now has self-doubt and makes a deal with his former enemy because he's unsure of himself, eventually leading to paranoia and him needing to be told he's still what he used to be...he's unsure of himself so he chooses to cheat rather than face the possibility he just can't do it himself anymore. I guess you can work the Invasion and him leading the Alliance in that, but I thought Austin's mental deterioration was an interesting enough story as it was......but as we've discussed, there's really no circumstance where anyone wants to boo Steve Austin.

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  58. That would imply that Bishoff was more than a simple moron who ran WCW into the ground and was lucky that Vince allowed him partial control over one of his shows.

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  59. Yeah, but selling the stock to Flair was pretty cool.

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  60. I think 2008ish Orton can pull of 2004 Orton's character. Initially he was pushed beyond his skill - by the time you finally accepted him as a serious upper midcard heel he was turned into the main event face. The Undertaker match, at the time, was a desperate attempt to salvage him after the failed face turn. But story-wise, him killing his biggest legend in Undertaker would have made him if he'd been ready for it.

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  61. I would've went almost the same. Only I'd leave Wrestlemania as it is...but at Backlash, Rock/Austin vs the Outsiders, with the loser being fired. Outsiders win after Rock/Austin miscommunication, explaining Rock's absence and setting up a potential Rock heel turn vs Austin.


    Hogan challenges Triple H. The nWo hit the ring to help Hogan, and, swerve, beat him down to help Triple H retain the title. Triple H is the new nWo leader, Hogan comes back a couple of months later in the red and yellow.

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  62. I think he's the guy I got into the rape culture debate with. It was a fun discussion.

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  63. That's not untrue but funny because he's essentially doing the exact same thing. He hates us, continues to visit/read the blog, then goes and posts about it on message board. Sounds familiar...

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  64. Nice assessment of all of those gimmicks. Two things I want to add:


    1. John Cena was definitely flirting with a higher plane of coolness. I think we've forgotten how edgy he could get. I remember before a match with one of the Japanese fellows they brought to smackdown back in 2004, he started to rip into him like usual. But the wrestler (and I can't remember who it was for some reason) had a geisha-like second in his corner. Cena proceeds to effortless include and allude to basically jizzing all over her face (in contrast to the white makeup she was wearing). But then 2005 came and they thought a feud with Bischoff would put him over the top and it completely backfired because Cena came off as Austin/Rock-lite.



    2. Yes, the Austin backstory was tremendous. Near genius. Most people talk about how it was too soon to turn him and you shouldn't turn him in Texas. I slightly disagree. What damaged Austin's heel turn was not explaining his motivations and dramatizing the circumstances behind his turn. I might be mistaken, but didn't he give one of those crappy, "I don't owe you or anyone an explanation" explanations? Between that and the inclusion of HHH right away, the Austin character was harmed. Austin was golden in almost every move/promo after HHH got injured, though.

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  65. Fans had been itching to cheer for Triple H for a while, I think it would have worked for a while. It's just hard to imagine a Triple H push where the fans are just organically behind him and it's not the over-pushed over the top thing it usually is with him. But yeah, Triple H was badass, as a fan on his I was pretty bummed his eventual face run was such a bore.

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  66. I may not understand it and think it is stupid and maybe even hypocritical... but if that is what they do for enjoyment then so be it, that's their prerogative.

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  67. I've been watching old shows from late 2000 and there's a really weird period between Summerslam and Survivor Series where HHH's character doesn't change but he's suddenly a tweener/babyface as he feuds with Angle and Benoit and the crowd were immediately behind him. The potential was certainly there for him to be a red-hot face without having to change all that much.

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  68. I think you explained the heel Austin better than they ever did. Seriously this company can't write storylines with layers AT all! You're right about the 2002 nwo and even bischoff--why can't they write a goddamn storyline????

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  69. Cena could have been a more modern day Steve Austin in the sense that he wasn't a clean cut goody-goody but you cheered him because he was using his "evil ways" against bad guys. He did freestyle raps where he set up an obvious dirty word for the fans to yell - that's much better than "if you want some, come get some" while he's wearing a WWE hat and the local teams jersey with Chain Gang on the back. It was similar to Shawn Michaels 1995/1996 where he was this cocky asshole who dressed like, I guess, a stripper? Then when he turns face he's sort of the same, but lamer and more fan friendly.


    Yeah it was the "I don't owe you an explanation" explanation. I've never really thought about what would have been a better explanation though -if he's paranoid and unsure of himself, he's not likely to openly say that. He'd want to act like the usual Stone Cold, even though he know he isn't - which might be a bit too deep for the typical wrestling fan to understand. Ideally a promo where you catch onto the fact that he's trying to be who he always was but you know he's not..

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  70. I don't know why but I see HHH coming up with the whole hug scenario just to make sure Eric doesn't get too much heel heat. Remember, hhh was about to become lead heel on raw after bischoff declared him the free agent that would have turned the Monday night wars in wcw favor. Ha!

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  71. Russo in June 2002 came up with the gm idea after he was rehired. He actually had a lot of ideas, many of which they actually used after releasing him.

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  72. I don't care what anyone says - if he's not banging Stephanie there's no "Triple H would have saved WCW" angle. It's so ridiculous when you think of it. Ironically, WWE's numbers are going down as Triple H is taking over.

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  73. Really? Didn't hear any of this before, details?

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  74. But unrealistic - Flair'd never have that kind of money at one time.

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  75. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 29, 2013 at 11:48 PM

    If he did, he'd definitely blow it on something like WWE stock, and then lose it in a wrestling match Or booze and hookers, either way.

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  76. Because they're writing for kids? Or they think the people watching just don't remember? This might sound ignorant but maybe the average wrestling fan just can't understand characters with layers? Or they just don't believe they can? When I say I want a more adult product, I don't mean sex and violence, I just want characters portrayed as realistic people - if you beat the piss out of me with a chair and we're now facing the same enemy, I'm still going to be wary of you, you know? Or just simple human psychology thrown in from time to time.

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  77. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 29, 2013 at 11:49 PM

    Looked like that was what they were going for with Ambrose before they cancelled it and went with the Shield instead

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  78. I wouldn't have minded the "I don't owe you an explanation" explanation if it was done for the reasons you say (he would never admit to it), but the real explanation is introduced by a face confronting Austin and accusing him of that very thing, with Austin's mannerisms showing it's absolutely true. Instead it was just kind of "eh he's a heel now".

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  79. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM

    I thought Angle worked, but they must have been taking 8-balls during creative/booking meetings for most of the second half of the year. Very little they did stuck. Heroic Angle was turned into turncoat Angle like a month after his big win. Why? Who knows.


    The only arcs that had any consistency were the Jericho turn and RVD with the diamond in the rough gimmick.

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  80. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 30, 2013 at 12:03 AM

    Not going to take all of them, but some:


    Cena circa 03 through WM 21. Brilliant gimmick and probably one of the few times they've been somewhat current with a gimmick. Probably is it had a limited shelf life, there's no way a 35 year old Cena pulls this off without looking like the world's biggest dork. Not that he doesn't look that way now, but I digress.


    Legend Killer Orton. They should channeled some of that with his current run. Orton from that that era doesn't even seem like the same guy that's out there now.


    Hollywood Rock is the best gimmick they've ever done and they probably should reprise it eventually, if he can remember to say "The Rock" instead of "I".


    Hurricane was the most they were getting out of Shane Helms.


    Bischoff filled his role well even if they had no high concept for him. Someone mentioned the "asshole out for ratings", I thought they toyed with that enough where he did things against heels that were "best for business".


    Heel Austin was a great character, that as said here a few times, was never explained well enough for the casual viewer to give a shit. It was a very meta gimmick. Old tough bastard who isn't sure he has it anymore and he progressively loses his shit to stay on top. The only thing dumber that doing the gimmick with no explanation was blowing off the gimmick with no explanation.

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  81. I really dont put it on HHH that numbers are going down. The product is stale and at the very least they seem to be trying to develop some new guys.



    With a new training center in place, I would think they will want to push some of the talent from down there when they are ready so they can all pat each other on the back.


    Until Vince is dead, he is very much the guy in control and should get all credit and blame....

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  82. If he did, he probably would be dead or divorced 6 or 7 more times...

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  83. Obviously they think very little of their current audience as it really seems like short attention span theater. I can see doing a billion recaps back when there was another wrestling show airing at the same time, but nowadays its quite annoying and is just filler...

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  84. Well Cena took a lot of his character from Eminem - if they do a "Cena had a drug problem" angle in 2010 he could probably go back to his 2003 character now.

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  85. The Cena thing wouldve gotten old and stale quicker than his current shtick....


    Heel Rock was great and probably was the way they shouldve had him during the Cena feud as he wouldve been more edgy and possibly wouldve given Cena a better rub....


    In tackling nWo/Bischoff, I agree that they shouldve had Vince own up to it being some master plan he cooked up. Hogan shouldve been brought back on his own and there shouldve been an nWo like faction of Sting/Goldberg/? to come in around the time of Bischoff and run roughshod over WWE for awhile...


    Finally, heel Austin doesnt get enough credit. I was always a Rock guy and I always see 03 Rock lauded as some great character and it was but I find heel Austin much more entertaining. I really have no clue how anybody could keep a straight face around him. He really pulled off a much more complex character if ya ask me....

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  86. Im not sure that gimmick would work in 2013. Especially with the PG hanging over head, I cant even imagine how corny his stuff would be now....

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  87. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 30, 2013 at 12:32 AM

    The point is with the Austin character is that they actually executed the character perfectly but didn't both explaining the motivation. So it has nothing to do with writing for kids or simpletons, it has to do with them sucking at writing.

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  88. The Rock's feud with Hurricane Helms is actually my favorite of all his feuds. The Rock and Helms had tremendous chemistry with each other in promos. Too bad though that the Hurricane was so much smaller than the rock. They couldn't have a believable match as a result. Still, watching the Rock and hurricane talk smack to each other was the only highlight of Raw during a time when Triple H kept putting himself over "Those people." I felt the Rock's feud with the Hurricane actually overshadowed Rock's 2003 PPV feuds with Austin and Goldberg. I literally sat through two hours of "I am the Gameeuhhh" each monday night in early 2003 in order to see even a glimpse of the hamburglar and the scorpion king.

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  89. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 1:37 AM

    Randy Orton is the Dane Cook of wrestling.

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  90. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 1:38 AM

    ...And John Cena is the Dave Grohl/Foo Fighters of wrestling.

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  91. The Smackdown Six infuriated me because it sacrificed character for aesthetics. That said, I am a complete asshole who cares more about character and 'work' than pure technical prowess.

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  92. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANNovember 30, 2013 at 4:17 AM

    Cena's just too old looking to play that gimmick now in HD. It would just be sad.


    As for Austin, it just sucked, he kind of had a subtle face turn in the Survivor Series match where he fought valiantly and got screwed over and that was that. The whole heel Austin thing should have been about him seeking out his death. He's doing all of these things to hang on, well, eventually it has to catch up with him.


    They did a much better job of the same thing with HBK against the Undertaker. Guy's willing to go to ridiculous lengths to validate himself, he loses his shit, and he gets his death in the end.

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  93. As much as Right To Censor was hated and criticized, I have to admit I really loved Val Venis' Jim Ross impersonation when he and Ivory did that mock interview making fun of the JR/Chyna interview where Chyna did some of the worst acting ever seen on a wrestling show by trying to sell a neck injury and failing more miserably than a Justin Bieber overseas tour. But Val as JR was too hilarious and he proved that it's possible to hilariously mock JR without being mean spirited about it, unlike Vince McMahon and Ed Ferrera's attempts to mock JR.

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  94. I loved how it took an hour just to get to the damn Invasion booking, although that hour included an absolutely brilliant rant on Johnny Ace's stupidity.

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  95. Except "All My Life" is better than every song on Cena's rap album.
    Hell, Randy Savage's rap album is better than every song on Cena's rap album.

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  96. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 4:48 AM

    Perhaps, but Where Did You Sleep Last Night? is better than every Foo Fighters song.

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  97. Let's see... workaholics? Yes. Cheesy humor that has been known to get on peoples nerves in promos/music videos? Yes. Almost universally respected by peers but criticized by diehards of a bygone era? Yes. Sadly, this comparison works.



    Dave Grohl still kicks ass and you can't convince me otherwise.

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  98. Cena: Was fine for its time, and the gradual turn from the "edgy rapper" to SuperCena was okay also.


    D-Von: Got Batista in, and that's all it had in its favor.


    Orton: I still prefer RNN Randy Orton, but this phase wasn't too bad either.


    Rock: Scott nails it above. And other than his initial babyface run, when has Rock failed at any persona?


    Outlaws: Neither would have had much success as a single (See: King Gunn), so this was their ticket. And they made it work, so full credit to them.


    Smackdown Six: Sadly, UPN was on and (mostly) off my cable at this time, so I missed the vast majority of the fun.


    nWo: Bleh. Much like the InVasion, just another chance for Vince to "prove"/drive into the ground that WWF>WCW. As if the fact that the WWF was the last company standing didn't already prove that...


    Bischoff: Worked out pretty well, and at times he was a bright spot during the Reign of Terror. Unless Vince could somehow have gotten him in during the initial InVasion, I have no issues with the "blown" Vince vs. Eric potential.


    Edge: Made SuperCena fun and interesting in the chase... fuck, he even gave Hacksaw a moment of "glory". I definitely enjoyed the change of pace.


    Storm: The only memory I have of this phase was Jackie Gayda's nipple slip on Raw.


    Hurricane: Fun JTTS-level guy. I've previously mentioned my favorite Hurricane highlight, and it's him getting in over his head, and tossed out the Rumble in 2002.


    RTC: Promoter takes shot at person/people he doesn't like, Chapter 952. Stevie was cool, Ivory was hot, Val was Val, and Go(o)dfather was missing the hoes. I consider their match against Acolytes/Tazz at WM 17 a fun little brawl.


    Austin: Fighting with Angle over Vince's affection: Cool. Beating the everloving shit out of Hardys/Lita: Very Cool. (I know, pre-Alliance. Sue me.) Getting beer-bathed by Angle: Fun. Most of the rest of this heel run: Eh.

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  99. Eric as the kiss-ass suck up doesn't make sense? Him following the "golden goose", no matter what shit he has to wade through, actually would be quite in character for him. IMO.


    Hell, they can easily explain the choice... "Money Talks, baby. It talked bad about Vince in WCW, and it talks well about Vince in WWF."

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  100. I actually thought Titus O'Neil did a good job with the psychology of wrestling while sick before things got cartoon-ish after the match. He actually looked bloated, made sure to move slower than usual, and he sold the cramping/stomachache well. Between the Smackdown segment and the Strahan segment on RAW, it looks like they're turning Titus into a comedy act, but at least he's trying to do his best with what they're giving him.

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  101. Goldust "crocodile hunting" for Big Show was damned funny too. Even with the X-Pac interruption.

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  102. That last part sounds more like a 2 Cold Scorpio gimmick. Or maybe Robert Fuller?

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  103. re: Right to Censor. At the time I recall thinking there was an opportunity to work in Kurt Angle as their main event representative. His hypocritical "Three I's" thing and Kurt's illusion of being a squeaky-clean Olympic hero would have fit right in there. You could have had Vince endorse Angle & his team as the new face of the WWF, with Kurt on the Wheaties box (as I recall?) and the RTC there to clean up his Austin-era product. I think RTC's concept was fun in that they fit the classic heel criteria: THEY think their cause is just, but their actions contradict whatever "moral high ground" they think the represent. In the end, they are still ratfuck heels beating people up for not seeing the world as they do, but they do it preaching "wholesomeness" and "family product".


    I wish RTC had better workers though. Venis and Goodfather made sense in terms of being "converted", but the Bull Buchanan/Goodfather team belonged on the outside as muscle instead of dragging down what was an otherwise awesome tag division in 2000

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  104. One good and different album and then doing the same thing over and over for the next 10 years? I support this comparison.

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  105. Puking in the ring.. Vince must have wrote that segment just to make fun of Darren Drozdov.

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  106. so I went back and re-read the Raw recaps leading up to Wm 17 and Austin's turn. The WWE was so subtle on showing he doesn't have it anymore, they spent a month not showing it all.


    Austin wrestled only in tag matches for the month leading up and his team won all of them. In the recaps there was no promos, other than the sit down with Rock, where Austin said he NEEDED the title. There was no implication of doubt, no implication of Austin not having it and needing Vince. In fact, Vince and Austin didn't even interact leading up to WM. Vince was busy with Shane building up to his street fight at WM and pretending he had a chance with Trish.


    Nearly every Raw ended with Rock Bottom/Stunner combos between Rock and Austin. The "he didn't have it" was built in after the turn.

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  107. That works. The thorn in Vince's side with illusions of grandeur. The turd you can't quite flush away, back for another round with McMahon

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  108. 2. That is where JR could have been the perfect mouthpiece for the heel turn. He could have emphasized the whole "Austin got so insecure while injured that he allied with his greatest nemesis" concept. I think including HHH right away was a mistake.


    I think it was early to turn Austin only because the Invasion was coming. Iconic babyface Stone Cold against the invading WCW team just made sense

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  109. The thing is: WE put the Austin heel turn explanation together. Had they actually done that on TV, I think it would have been viewed differently. The whole story arc you just explained was put together later on by fans. Even if it was WWF's intent at the time, it was never really laid out like that

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  110. Did they ever reference him losing to Triple H, before or after? That's the only thing that stood out to be because it was so unexpected. It's a match where the face typically wins, and it's Steve Austin, I didn't expect him to lose that one at all.

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  111. Threadjackery,

    I know I might get crapped on for saying this but was anyone else disappointed with the end of Infinity? Like, did I miss something?

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  112. Interseting...In hindsight that layer would have made the heel turn better from a storyline perspective. They probably were just focusing on keeping Austin strong for the Mania build.

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  113. HHH came out and cut one promo a few weeks after No Mercy saying he was better than Austin and Rock and everyone else. I'd have to go back and look but I think Austin/Rock/Angle came out and perhaps Undertaker as well. Eventually it lead to Kane holding a dummy...I mean "Stephanie" above his head and threatening to toss Stephanie down a stairwell for Undertaker to get his WM match against HHH.


    Other than that, I found no reference to Austin losing to HHH. Of course the commentary might have made reference to it, but the booking/promos did not.

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  114. I'm going to go into hiding after saying this, but with absolutely negative expectations for the show, I actually had a kinda fun time watching it. Titus was pretty darn good, and I thought the tag match that kept going was pretty fun and well-wrestled/performed.

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  115. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 30, 2013 at 11:43 AM

    I love how Rock put Hurricane over at every opportunity during the HHR run, even letting him get a roll-up win, and yet HHH seemingly loved to Pedigree him on a monthly basis.

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  116. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryNovember 30, 2013 at 11:45 AM

    I admit: I sent Orton a Get Well e-mail at getwellrandy@wwe.com during the whole RNN injury stuff.

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  117. how did the main event not work for you?

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  118. Cena, made him entertaining.
    Eric, when I was little he was one of the reasons why I stopped watching wrestling for a while.
    Edge, that segment helped ratings but was sadly the last real TV 14 thing they ever did.
    Hurricane, when I was little Iliked him but didn't get that his gimmick was to lose.

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  119. The Smackdown Six stuff was freaking spectacular. Getting PPV quality matches every episode made it a good time to be a fan. Also extend it further when Haas and Benjamin started teaming. Heyman running Smackdown was a great thing for a wrestling fan...as opposed to the rubbish RAW was doing.

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  120. Hey, man, I don't mind downvoting me but I'm looking for discussion. At least give me a response.

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  121. Smackdown Six was the greatest thing to happen to WWE in the past ten years. Lets look at the numbers, shall we
    Every member was a "World Champ" when you count Chavo's ECW title
    Each member had won secondary titles before and afterwards
    Their matches were always in the four star class and threaten to go to five stars each time they were paired up
    Sadly two members are now gone, one has retired to cumulative injuries and two others should not be wrestling because they are almost crippled for life and the last has been reduced to what seems to be a comedy tag team. Oh but the memories will always be there

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  122. Puking in the ring = Vince wrote it, period.

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  123. Amsterdam_Adam_CurryNovember 30, 2013 at 2:43 PM

    No one counts the ECW title as a world title.

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  124. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 4:19 PM

    He's a good drummer and that's where it ends for me.

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  125. Uh, that's pretty much the same character he played when he came into the company in 2002 and as Scott noted, by doing that, they left a lot of money on the table. Bischoff vs Vince was one of the real feuds that fans believed in, of course in real life it probably wouldn't have worked out anyway because I don't see Vince ever selling for Bischoff or ever making him look good.

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  126. Not to mention that when the Invasion first started a lot of the guys were still under contract to Turner, so WWE would have to go to a lot of expense to acquire that talent, so essesially WWE would have invested a lot of money in Bischoff and not done anything with him and it's the same thing WCW did with Bret.

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  127. he's a good drummer and has written at least a handful of great rock tunes. surely, you can admit the latter.

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  128. well, it's Leadbelly. What do you expect?

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  129. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 10:57 PM

    There are bands I despise that have a handful of good songs. Big deal.

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  130. Pat Patterson Prolapsed!November 30, 2013 at 11:00 PM

    I know, "In The Pines" I think was the original name. It's not the song that is necessarily good, but the Unplugged performance from Kurt pretty much cemented his legacy as... well, what he is. Foo Fighters isn't on the same plateau.

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  131. Power_of_Hogans_HOF_RingDecember 7, 2013 at 6:25 AM

    That last hour was some of the most fun I've had watching wrestling in the last 3 months. Even on dvr, even with me knowing exactly what was coming, this was awesome. I'd give the whole thing an A. Good times.

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