DDP Yoga

Wednesday, March 26, 2014

Daily Network thread - 3/26/14

The live stream schedule for today:

9:00 AM ET - RAW Flashback - 7/19/93 - Marty Jannetty vs. Shawn Michaels - IC Title Match
10:00 AM ET - RAW Flashback - 7/26/93 - Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow
11:00 AM ET - Royal Rumble 2014 - 1/26/14 - John Cena vs. Randy Orton; Big Show vs. Brock Lesnar
2:00 PM ET - Wrestlemania Rewins - 3/25/14 - Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart and Yokozuna at Wrestlemania X
3:00 PM ET - WWE Countdown - 3/25/14 - Top ten biggest blunders
4:00 PM ET - WCCW - 2/26/83 - Freebirds vs. Von Erichs in a Lumberjack Match
5:00 PM ET - SummerSlam 2012 - 8/19/12 - Triple H vs. Brock Lesnar
8:00 PM ET - Old School - 10/19/86 - Houston - Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff; Davey Boy Smith vs. The Iron Sheik
9:00 PM ET - Best of RAW - 2/17/02 - Triple H vs. Kurt Angle #1 Contender Match; a confrontation between The Rock and Hollywood Hogan
11:00 PM ET - Old School - 10/19/86 - Houston - Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff; Davey Boy Smith vs. The Iron Sheik

For recommended viewing, as a curiosity only, try ECW's PPV debut in 1997 with Barely Legal. There's a six man on that show with Kaientai (before being called as such) vs. Hamada, Sasuke and Yakushiji. Not much on that show holds up, because, you know...it's ECW, but as a time capsule of a certain time period, it's worth checking out.

391 comments:

  1. Stranger in the AlpsMarch 26, 2014 at 7:56 AM

    And if anyone asks, YES this is the episode of RAW where Hogan destroys The Rock with the semi.

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  2. Basically an independent promotion holding their first PPV? I'd say the show holds up pretty well all things considered. The music edits put a small damper on it though. I was never a big fan of ECW, but this is one of my favorite shows to watch.

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  3. You failed to post this yesterday... I am going to talk to Bayless about jobbing you to Rock Star Gary on the BoD 'Mania Pre-Show

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  4. Stranger in the AlpsMarch 26, 2014 at 8:13 AM

    Hey! I posted this yesterday. Just because the thread DIED doesn't mean it wasn't there. Stranger In the Alps lays down for NOBODY! Unless she has boobies.

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  5. I did like the little detail of when the NWO actually looked in the ambulance, and immediately realized they had gone too far. (so of course, Rock was back at about 100% 2-3 weeks later).

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  6. Watching Royal Rumble 93. Am I alone or was Scott a bit harsh on the HBK Marty match? It's pretty good to me and I guess Marty is a bit sluggish but I would have never guess he was drunk.

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  7. Stranger in the AlpsMarch 26, 2014 at 8:36 AM

    With nothing but taped ribs.

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  8. Maybe it's because it was overshadowed by their RAW match later in the year, plus Shawn winning was kind of anti-climactic, but yep, it wasn't that bad. I didn't even really notice that Marty was "under the influence".

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  9. MArty should not have held Shawn for Sherri. She should have tried to hit him on her own and accidentally hit Marty, even if they wanted to split Shawn off from her for, as it is you kind of are left feeling well...Marty kinda got what he deserved.

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  10. WWE really needs to sell their medical tape because that stuff works miracles.

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  11. I'm actually even liking the Bossman/Bam Bam match here though I have a soft spot for the bammer..and 90's bossman for that matter.

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  12. It's too late for Bryan. They had the moment at SummerSlam and they fucked it all up.


    He could be Bret Hart/HBK big...he'll never be Austin/Rock big. I don't know if he ever would have been but if they just gave him the belt after SummerSlam, they had a chance.

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  13. Maybe he didn't.

    There's a reason porn sites have cuckolding in it's own section. We have no idea what their arrangement was.

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  14. Not that I am aware, I've done some search for info on future releases and have not really found anything. Supposedly they were going to put a bunch more up when the free trial was over so who knows. My gut tales me a lot will go up in the couple of weeks after mania. Mainia is the big selling point for now and after that is over they are going to need stuff to get more subscribers.

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  15. To be good on the mic, you first have to be comfortable on the mic. You can only get comfortable on the mic by repetition and just plain time spent on it. Guys like The Rock and Ric Flair could be handed a live mic and just wing it for 15 minutes if need be, but today the promos are all force fed to the talent. How can they develop properly when they're not even given a chance to do more than recite lines some soap opera washout wrote for them?

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  16. I don't know why everyone says ECW hasn't aged well... I think people have just had what they want out of wrestling affected by the way the product has been the last 15 years or so... for me I will take some violence, adult content, and edgier storylines any time over what we have today. I think I actually like ECW better now than I did then.

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  17. That match got Bryan over huge. Funny how that works.

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  18. They should book every stadium show like WrestleMania 19. That show ended with 5 straight big matches back to back to back. And it was awesome.

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  19. I don't think you understand the word 'basically'.

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  20. Nah, it's one of those things where I'm so much smarter than you and you don't know how to react to it. It's okay, I get it a lot.

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  21. Thread(less) Jack(et),

    Jared Allen to Chicago, 15.5 guarateed, 24 over 4 years, an out at 3 years. Basically, a million less than Peppers, for 2 years younger and better recent production.

    Someone talk me off the ledge. Explain to me why we needed this guy.

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  22. A lot of the matches don't hold up but I can watch the angles all day.

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  23. I'm genuinely interested in how many downvotes this got/would have gotten

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  24. People either can watch stuff in context or they can't I think a lot of the negative ones can't.

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  25. I very much miss downvote totals

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  26. Well that's fine if they want to start "splitting up" the HOF appearances for certain wrestlers, but I can't imagine Scott Hall (unless instructed otherwise) is gonna go up there in a couple weeks and just talk about his 4 years spent as one particular character. (And if he's just "in character" as Razor the whole time, that would be beyond lame and stupid). He had already built up a decent enough career in the AWA and WCW even before that as well. Are we to just ignore that too?

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  27. It's a good question. I didn't get ECW on TV. But, I wonder if the impact is lessened because what was innovative then had been surpassed now? Also, there's no surprise now? I dunno.

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  28. The intro vids were great but he was pushed to the moon in the WWF right out of the gate.


    If one company is telling you this guy is a mid-card act while the other tells you he's a main event level guy all in the same calendar year which one is better presented doesn't factor in as much. Diamond Studd vs Stunning Steve,Dustin Rhodes,Sting & Ron Simmons would have worked in WCW circa 1992 if they had chosen such a path for him.

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  29. Slamboree 1993 was one of the WCW shows WWE pulled yesterday so they could restore the Slam Jam music. It's back up now, so Ricky Steamboat and whoever was playing the role of Shane Douglas come out to "Family Man" as nature intended. Today is a good day.

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  30. I came here to say something similar, glad it isn't just me. Content wise I think Bayless brings the most to the table at this point... but the comments are what really make the site interesting imo.

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  31. Bryan is already more popular than Bret Hart and HBK ever were.

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  32. I didn't really like ECW at the time, so I guess I can't judge. The good matches are still good matches though.

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  33. That makes sense. Hopefully they do, because it's kind of annoying having those gaps in the old NWA feuds.

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  34. You're hottest act can't ever miss an episode!! Terrible decision!

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  35. Can't confirm when but I know for sure they are coming.

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  36. agreed, They should also take (if it exists) some uncut supercards like the Crocket cups and GAMB shows with the original War Games and such.

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  37. On top of that, they get punished if they off script even a little. So what incentive do they have to try to develop their character (aka make the McMahons money) at all?

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  38. I wish they'd just throw the entire Clash of the Champions set up with the WCW pay-per-views myself. Hell, they should just toss the entire War Games set up there too.

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  39. It pays off in... JOHNNY Spades!

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  40. I don't think he's Austin/Rock big - I think Foley is probably a solid comparison.

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  41. Bryan is not MORE popular than Bret or Shawn ever were. Come on, those guys were beloved and carried the WWF at various times. He's as popular, sure. But those guys were huge huge huge deals and shawn would still get the biggest pop today.

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  42. Scott Keith=The Man

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  43. So I've been watching through the '93 Raws with the leadup to Wrestlemania IX, and believe me, I know how bad the show is. However, as per usual, the build-up was reasonably solid... yet I skipped the show knowing how bad it is and how much I hated it as a kid.

    Thoughts? Should it be watched regardless? Or is it just not worth the 3 hours?

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  44. Watch it. It's actually not as bad as I remember.

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  45. Who cares about the Clash's...GIVE ME PRIME TIME !!!!!!!

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  46. Yep, the unique atmosphere alone makes it worth it for me.

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  47. Show me examples of Bret or Shawn getting a face pop and commanding a crowd like Bryan did when he turned on Bray Wyatt, or during the Occupy Raw takeover, or when Cena announced that Bryan was his opponent at Summerslam. It's probably Bret at Canadian Stampede 1997 and that's it.


    Only Hogan, Austin and Rock have reached a higher level of crowd reaction that Bryan gets now.

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  48. Well I mean, Bret carried the WWF during a time where business was probably worse than it is now. It's not entirely unreasonable to say Bryan's more popular.

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  49. It's really REALLY not that big of a deal. Like, at all.

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  50. The Diamond Studd's speech is one I really want to see.

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  51. And Scott is just really saying what most of us are thinking. Look, whether this is the story they wanted to tell or not, its the one they ended up telling. They've set up the perfect payoff everyone wanted at the show everyone wanted it to happen at. Bryan could go over HHH and win the belt, capping off an angle that's been going on for 8 months (since mitb).

    HOWEVER...
    HHH has almost never ever done the right thing as far as jobbing, and the wwe has seemed like they really don't want Bryan as THE GUY. It's absolutely not unbelievable that HHH would go over here. In fact, using some anti-smark logic, what difference would it make if HHH did go over? Would ticket sales drop? No. Would the stock price/TV deal get affected? No. Would it hurt any buy rates? No those are dead issues with the network. Would the fans get pissed? Sure but so what, they'll keep watching. So what's the real reason to put him over? To make a big star? Hey the brand is the draw.

    To me, they've set it up perfect so I'll "play it out" until mania and just assume they will do the right thing but honestly you'd have to be completely ignorant about wwe history to act like we're guaranteed to be entering the Bryan era.

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  52. I'm not saying it's a "big" deal. I'm just sort of wondering and speculating what's gonna happen. This is sort of unique (at this point), you know?

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  53. Stranger in the AlpsMarch 26, 2014 at 9:45 AM

    I wasn't a huge fan of the product to begin with. So that's just my own bias talking. Which is ironic, because I've been considering reviewing these old ECW TV episodes.

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  54. Go watch anything from 1994 or 1995 and tell me Bret Hart didn't get insane face pops or move tons of merch. When Nash had the belt the fans went insane for Bret and chanted for him all the time. People act like the history of the world is confined to the last 5 days in this age.

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  55. RR 93: I love them making a big deal of Backland being 43...while he is in there with 44 year old Ric Flair.

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  56. You know what's more important than pops? Ratings and PPV buyrates.

    While the ratings and PPV buyrates from 2013-2014 have been declining for years, they're still higher than when Bret and Shawn were champions. That could be credited to Cena or to the WWE Brand itself, but all things considered an argument can be made that Bryan is more popular than Bret and Shawn.

    Yes, Bret and Shawn are "huge huge huge deals" in the eyes of hardcore wrestling fans, but they weren't exactly doing great business back in the mid 1990s.

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  57. Did you not get the speculation memo?


    BAYLESS! Aren't you supposed to be all over this?

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  58. You know, it's true, even as a kid I thought Razor Ramon was cool and wished he would act like a good guy. I did get kind of tired of him by 1996 though. Win the IC belt, lose the IC belt, win the IC belt, lose the IC belt, team with the Kid, feud with the Kid, sometimes at the same time as winning the IC belt and losing the IC belt.


    Christian gets a concussion every month and if history is any indication he's only a month or so away from surgery for something.

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  59. Excellent analysis. That's what I come here for!

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  60. Even though they put the belt on him they've booked him like a loser. Cm punks title reign looks like hogans first run compared to what Orton's gotten. He basically jobbed to Bryan at 4 shows in a row but kept the belt, had to get buried as the heel champ by a heel HHH over and over, and was really just an incompetent proxy for HHH. I'm not a big Orton fan but I will say working with Bryan so much has made orton better in the ring which I can respect. But his booking as been shit.

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  61. It may not be the best Mania, but it's far from the worst. HBK-Tatanka, Steiners-Headshrinkers among other matches really brings some good stuff. And, as mentioned before, the atmosphere was really cool.


    Plus, it's the first "official" PPV of the JR era.

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  62. ECW's TV shows were always fine to me, but the PPVs were generallya mix of disappointing and boring in places. Unless you were a big fan of watching guys repeatedly kick out at two after going through multiple tables onto tacks and razor blades or something.

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  63. "I confronted Tammy until, with tears in her eyes, she confided in me that I was a better lover than Shawn Michaels. She broke down and confessed I was always her favourite wrestler to screw, and I deserved to be WWF Champion."

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  64. I'm not saying Bret wasn't popular, but there's nothing that Bret did in 1994 or 1995 that matches what Bryan is getting right now. You have to fast forward to Bret in Canada in 1997 to get that reaction and that was confined to Canada.

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  65. They kept a company in business that didn't have 10% of the infrastructure and footing it has now. Swap cena to the mid 90's and Bret and Shawn to today. The wwe dies with cena at that time, and would thrive with those guys today. Also if Bret and Shawn were around today Bryan wouldn't be as popular.

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  66. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Inducting guys under different names/groups/gimmicks seems silly to me. It'd be like inducting a baseball player for the 5 years he spent with one team and then inducting him for the rest of his career a couple of years later. Just slow down on the inductions, there are some guys who probably deserve their induction to be more meaningful than the 4th or 5th most important that year.

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  67. I'm doing the same thing, I'll be watching the raws leading up to it and then watching the show but...I'm not one to tell someone to or not to watch a show since I a few weeks ago came to the realization WM 4 is really bad...and I've watched it a lot of times....I only have so much life left...I will not watch that show again. I have a feeling this might be my last WM 9 also. If your heart is not in it don't watch the show.

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  68. But the character was created by Hall. Vince wanted him to be a GI Joe character.

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  69. The angles are what put ECW on the map as enjoyable television. There were a lot of good matches, too (Malenko-Guerrero, Mysterio-Psycosis), but the angles for guys who were so-so workers really gave everyone a focus.


    I really prefer the TV era of ECW over the PPV era, though. THey managed to package everything in a unique way. I think that kind of died down once they got to PPV.

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  70. Are you saying Daniel Bryan would be bigger than the nWo in 1996????

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  71. "The Bret screwed Bret line Vince delivered in his sit-down interview with Jim Ross was actually a jab at me. For years the boys in the locker-room used to joke that my penis was so large I was the only person who could screw himself. My large penis, and history of carrying people to classic matches, was why many of the boys believed I should be WWF Champion."

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  72. As others have said, these guys need more promo opportunities. Since RAW is three hours, its ridiculous how we don't have more interviews. We don't need 15-20 minute long promos to start the show every week (a remnant of the Attitude Era that needs to die for a while), but guys could just cut those quick 2-3 minute promos to put over a match, an angle, develop their character, etc. Very few get the opportunity to establish a connection to the audience or make them care, which is why the audience chants for Randy Savage or sits on its hand for many of the midcard matches.

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  73. You should watch WrestleMania 10 again. Or Summerslam 1991. Or the 1993 King of the Ring.


    Or you can just skip to the end of the 1994 Royal Rumble and listen to when they announce he had won.

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  74. Not at all. Just pointing out that Bret and Shawn were reliable workhorses that could carry the company in the mid-90s, but not megastars in the grand scheme of things. Only someone like Austin or The Rock could beat the nWo... along with WCW shooting itself in the foot every other month.

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  75. Also that's not true. According to WON summerslam 1994 (Bret vs Owen as the main event) did 315,000 buys and summerslam 2013 did 298,000 buys. So actually Bret did better business at a worse time.

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  76. I'm guessing putting everyone on the card is a good will gesture for the future screwings they'll probably be getting on pay per view payouts. Those fucking Matadors shouldn't be on Wrestlemania for any other reason.

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  77. Oh the Bayless movement is charging forward!!! I love it

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  78. Well, there's no way to actually prove that WWF would "die" if Cena was the Face of the Company (tm) in the 1990s.

    Cena would probably do remarkably well in the kiddie-friendly 1990s.

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  79. That's one PPV. Sure, Survivor Series 2014 also did worse than Survivor Series 1997. Look at the PPV buys across the board.

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  80. In that case: how are 3MB in the battle royal at Mania and Cesaro is in the tag match? Can anyone think of a rational explanation?

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  81. You must be psychic. :)

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  82. Yeah Bret Hart was the most popular guy in the company from 1993-1995 by a mile.

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  83. 21 years later, 45 year old Batista wins it.

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  84. Bayless is in the lead for "hardest working man in BOD biz" over at the ottie awards :)

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  85. "the wwe has seemed like they really don't want Bryan as THE GUY"

    I would just like to point out this is a massive understatement. They NEVER wanted Bryan as the guy. If they did, he would've been champion for 7 months. Remember, if the crowd doesn't revolted, he's wrestling Bray Wyatt at WrestleMania.

    "Would the fans get pissed? Sure but so what, they'll keep watching."

    I actually disagree with this because they HAVE to pull the trigger on Bryan now. Especially with Punk gone, if Bryan doesn't leave Mania at champ, there will be a portion of the audience that will stop watching.

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  86. Haha I actually did rewatch WM10 the other day. I'm not saying he wasn't popular, but you guys are COMPLETELY overstating the crowd reactions he's getting vs. Daniel Bryan.

    Granted it was a different era back then, and Austin/Rock really ushered in the crowd interaction era that Bryan is benefiting from with the YES chant. But fact is Bret or Shawn never consistently got the crowd response that DB is gets week in and week out.

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  87. That's one ppv that both guys have main evented. Bryan hasn't been in a lot of big shows main events yet, but if you want to compare, all the shows Bret did smoke the other B shows Bryan has closed out.

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  88. When did you start watching wrestling? Because I lived through the Bret era. People went insane for him and when Nash had the belt all anyone wanted was for Bret to be the champ.

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  89. After doing a little Google research Daniel bryan hasn't main evented a ppv that has come within 20k buys of a Bret ppv main event.

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  90. ...at a time when business was at it's lowest point. So he was the biggest fish in the era that the WWF was the smallest pond it ever has been.

    That's like saying you were a big deal because you were the best quarterback in your high school.

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  91. Nice try with the "i'm a more a fan because I've been watching longer" response. But I lived through the Bret/Shawn era too and again, I'm not at all trying to say the crowd wasn't nuts for Bret. But he never could command a crowd the way Bryan does with the Yes chant. He just didn't have the mic skills or the catchphrase to pull that off.

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  92. Please tell me they left in the Reverend Slick asking us to put a headlock on hunger.

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  93. The Impact Test being the ability to watch an entire episode of Impact without vomiting.

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  94. His HHH hate never gets old though. I like how he's giving all the other writers a chance to shine too.

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  95. Backlund couldn't wear a pair of skinny jeans like Batista though.

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  96. Actually that wasn't my point. I only brought that up because if your enough to remember watching that era I'm surprised this is even an open question. Also Daniel Bryan isn't strong on the mic. Bret was as good, if not a little better on the stick than Bryan.

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  97. I like how it says Razor was one of the first heels fans cheered for as some kind of selling point when Jake Roberts is right there in the same HOF class.

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  98. Orton, and Batista too, have been fantastic since they finally figured out where they wanted to go with all this.

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  99. I watched all the 97 and 98 ppvs. It's held up way better than I expected

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  100. Great points. The poor guy just can't accept that Austin and Rock carried the Attitude era and not him, so this is his time to shine.

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  101. Agree that Bryan isn't that great on the mic.


    I don't look at any era with rose-colored glasses so I'm just calling it like I see it. Right now, only Austin, Hogan and Rock have gotten bigger responses week in and week out that Bryan gets now. You are completely underselling how much of a monster that YES chant is.

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  102. ? Daniel Bryan hasn't had a run as champion yet. Besides, if you want to use SummerSlam 2013 as an example:

    SummerSlam 1996 - 157k buys (Shawn vs Vader)
    SummerSlam 1997 - 235k buys (Bret vs. Taker)

    Summerslam 2013 - 298k buys (Cena vs. Bryan)

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  103. In 96 and 97, they had competition. Especially 1996 at the height of the nWo.

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  104. The only thing I don't like about the "Razor" induction is that it's going to create a precedent of inducting the same old guys over again just because WWE feels that there's not many headliners left they can induct in the HOF.


    I hope they at least create a seperate wing for it like they do with their celebrity Hall of Famers.

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  105. Bryan is fantastic on the mic, it's just that he suffers sometimes when they the over produce him.

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  106. The Network FAQ lists them as coming to the Vault in 2014

    Along with SNME, Saturday Morning Slam, Nitro, Rock 'n' Wrestling, and "Vault Specials."

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  107. Bret wasn't on 1996, thus a huge reason why it tanked. And his biggest feud in the mid 90's did 315k summerslam buy rate.

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  108. Your_Favourite_LoserMarch 26, 2014 at 10:23 AM

    porn-star-mustached "big" scott hall needs to make an appearance

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  109. Which illustrates the point perfectly. With Bret and Shawn at the top of the card, WWF was #2 to WCW. If they were as "wildly popular" as suggested, why was WCW beating them so badly?

    I'm not saying Daniel Bryan could do better against the nWo era (only Austin or Rock seemed able to pull that off), but to argue that Bret and Shawn were SO much more popular than Bryan is silly when Bret and Shawn weren't all that popular in the grand scheme of things.

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  110. Yeah but they didn't care enough about THIS BUSINESS

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  111. Bret also did very well for himself on the mic and the crowd ate up his promos. You don't have to be flair or rock if you have that "it" factor.

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  112. Because Hulk fucking Hogan just turned heel in the biggest angle of all time.


    Vince could have time traveled the card from WrestleMania 3 to 1996 and it still wouldn't have touched WCW in 96.

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  113. Bret and Shawn were insanely popular in the grand scheme of things. Its the only reason that company stayed alive.

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  114. The WWF got smoked in production value, presentation, and story telling. And the wcw came up with one of the best angles ever.

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  115. For real yo. Hogan crated WWE when he left and it was thanks to Nash,Bret, and HBK that was still a company left for Austin and Rock to break out.

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  116. "The WWF got smoked in production value, presentation, and story telling"

    ...and trying to have Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart carry the promotion.

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  117. Your_Favourite_LoserMarch 26, 2014 at 10:28 AM

    a lot of the problem with ecw was that b/c the roster was so small, you got the same matches over and over. dreamer/sandman vs the dudleyz would be a mid card match on a tv taping, then a mid card ppv match, then a main event ecw arena match,then a main event ppv match, all within a few months

    and i know announcers need to sell the product, but joey styles (both at the time and even now) acting like everything ecw ever did was PURE GOLD, JERRY could get really annoying

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  118. So you're telling me the Undertaker vs. Undertaker match had nothing to do with the SummerSlam 1994 buys?

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  119. Exactly. And in 1993 Vince literally didn't have a third of the infrastructure and foothold he has now. If it wasn't for Bret and Shawn organically connecting with the fans and carrying that company it was dead. People forgot because now the wwe itself is the draw and they have TV deals etc but in 1994 that was a company that made its money off house tours and people were buying tickets to see Bret.

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  120. Bryan and Punk are the exact fucking clones of HBK and Bret, down to how they will be remembered. It's actually kinda scary. Guys we grow up with while they built up from the midcard(or indies) to become main eventers. And just like HBK and Bret were place holders from Hogan to the next boom, they will too when Reigns explodes.

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  121. Your_Favourite_LoserMarch 26, 2014 at 10:29 AM

    fake undertaker appreciates that

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  122. Hopefully we get an iron man match between them at wm31

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  123. Technically, Taker vs. Taker was the SummerSlam 1994 main event.

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  124. The WWF was in a smaller pond pre hogan.

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  125. My dream match for them is a 3 stages of hell match. First fall, I Quit match, second fall: 30 minute Iron Man match, last fall: Hell in a Cell.

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  126. Just once I'd like a character who delivers promos like Christopher Walken.

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  127. Oh yeah that would work too

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  128. I'm sorry, but where's the Daily Update of Disney considering Bradley Cooper as the new Indiana Jones?

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  129. "And just like HBK and Bret were place holders from Hogan to the next boom, they will too when Bray Wyatt explodes."


    FIXED.

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  130. "With a tear in MY eye, I told Roman Reigns HE was the best lover ever."

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  131. Bray Wyatt=Undertaker in this analogy.

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  132. That Michinoku Pro trios match most certainly does hold up!

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  133. "Bryan is already more popular than Bret Hart and HBK ever were."

    Are you new to wrestling or what?

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  134. Boooo I was going to post a link to raw season 2 on YouTube which had every 1994 raw on it but I just checked it out and like half the videos are missing. I'm all for wwe protecting its shit now that the network is out but man can't they wait until they put the shows up on the network first?

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  135. I wasn't counting the pre-Hogan era, but sure, you're technically right there.

    WWE 1995-1997 was in the toilet. Bret and Shawn were the faces of the company then. Sure, give them credit for keeping the company afloat, but they were still big fish in a little pond.

    The pond is much bigger today and Bryan is a big fish. I don't know if he's necessarily bigger than Bret or Shawn or has the potential to be, but that in itself is a much bigger accomplishment.

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  136. Well all the ppv buyrates are going to be terrible from here on out because of the network.

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  137. I like everything you are saying but Austin finally admitted he didn't improvise Austin 3:16. He cleared it with Vince first to make sure he wouldn't get fired.

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  138. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 10:40 AM

    They've been fantastic as background players in a match that people only care about because of Bryan's (or HHH's) involvement.

    If HHH put the title on himself and it was HHH vs Bryan in the main for the title, with Orton and Batista off the show, would a single less person buy the show? Does anybody seem to care about Orton or Batista being a part of this?

    Orton and Batista are getting paid a shitload of money and taking up a lot of airtime to basically end up as comedic background players.

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  139. I would actually go with Cena as Undertaker. The holdover from the previous generation who endures.

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  140. I don't like Bradley Cooper or Indiana Jones, so it keeps him contained for a while at least.

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  141. That'd be fun but a Bryan/Punk match Iron Man match could be in the running for greatest WM match ever.

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  142. Right. In the 90's, Bret and Shawn couldn't go anywhere on the planet without getting absolutely mobbed by people.

    Bryan was just asked on a radio show a few weeks ago in Detroit I was listening to if he gets mobbed when he goes places and he says no. He says if he goes to the grocery store he will occasionally get one or two people that says whats up to him

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  143. No, singlehandedly keeping the company alive during a down time is a bigger accomplishment than being a main event guy right now. Bryan hasn't done shit compared to those two guys. Give it two or three years and then maybe.

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  144. What Nazi stronghold did you grow up in?

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  145. Giant Gonzalez.........honestly how can someone be sooooooo terrible at throwing a punch or a chop or acting like you have been hit and it hurts?

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  146. Women learn to be manipulative bad girls in junior high. That's the video they watch when the boys have to leave the room.

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  147. Nah, Cena is Savage. Catch all legend who leaves for TNA after getting bored and mysteriously never comes back to WWE.

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  148. You can thank that to the NWO. Put present day RAW against something as hot as 1997 Nitro, and it would still be getting crushed, Bryan on top or not

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  149. I think Punk/Bryan just going an hour unadvertised would make for a better match.

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  150. I honestly think that's true for any wrestler today though, outside of the Rock and MAYBE John Cena.

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  151. I wasn't quite old enough to have watched ECW, especially in its heyday, but I think a lot of 1995 and 1996 ECW hold up really well. The roster was particularly deep in those two years and the company was probably at its best from a creative perspective.


    I tend to watch the shows in the context of the American wrestling landscape of the time. Sure, if you're compare the ring work of 1994 ECW to 2005 ROH, you'll wonder what the fuss was about, but compared to 1994 pro wrestling, ECW was so awesome and ahead of its time. I think ya just have to watch the shows in the proper context. That said, I would say that 1998 onward doesn't hold up as great since the product wasn't quite as good and the edginess didn't standout as much thanks to WWF programming.

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  152. To paraphrase Chevy Chase, "The world needs background players too"

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  153. When did he say that?


    Either way, he still thought of it, nobody wrote it for him.

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  154. You're right, an ROH style 1 hour match between the two would be the best possible match.

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  155. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 10:50 AM

    His booking has been shit, agreed. But he's still had the title for 8 months, been booked as the #1 in-ring heel, and had a shitload of airtime. Has he risen above bad booking to still connect with fans? (In the way that other wrestlers, cough cough Daniel Bryan cough cough have done.) No, he hasn't.

    That said, even if we don't lay all the blame on Randy Orton THE PERSON, I think we have to admit that Randy Orton the pro wrestling character is kind of fucked right now. Whoever's fault it is, his main event run has been a massive bomb. He's been earmarked as a bore, a background player, a failure, a guy rejected by the crowd. After he drops the title at Mania and then loses a rematch (probably the next night on Raw--- I can't see him even headlining Extreme Rules in a title match) where does he go? Can Randy Orton realistically be presented as anything higher than midcard after this run? I'd say that Bray Wyatt, Cesaro, Roman Reigns (hell, all of The Shield) and even Sheamus have far surpassed Orton in terms of star power. Nevermind the actual stars (Cena, Bryan, Batista, HHH, Lesnar, Punk if he comes back) of the show.

    I think this run firmly cements Orton in that ADR/Show/Rey/Christian level of known midcard quantities that should be there to provide a recognizable face and job to the actual stars.

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  156. I think if at 12, Bret and Shawn just go an hour and change instead of having the gimmick, it's probably the greatest match of all time.

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  157. He did the right thing at three Wrestlemanias in a row. Why is this one different?

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  158. This is especially surprising since WWE looks for TV and entertainment writers. You think they would approach training the talent in the same way.

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  159. Disagree, Bret/Shawn at 12 is really hamstrung not just because there weren't any falls, there weren't really any near falls either aside from Bret locking in the sharpshooter at the end of regulation. The wrestling was solid but there was no drama for 98% of the match.

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  160. You're missing the point. He's trying to say that the company was in a down period BECAUSE Bret and Shawn were on top.

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  161. Great job using anecdotal evidence and pre-packaged video clips designed to show that Bret and Shawn "are being mobbed by fans! THIS IS THE NEW GENERATION" in order to downgrade the fact that Daniel Bryan's YES chant gets a bigger reaction week over week than Bret and Shawn did in their entire careers.

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  162. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 11:00 AM

    They really want to get The Usos over as the only faces (that people care about) in that match.

    In that case, they should have just done Usos vs Rybaxel and give the Usos a straight up old fashioned squash.

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  163. Come on cult, HHH is Savage for all the obvious reasons.

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  164. He's wrong then. They were in a down period because wcw presented a better product. The nitro production values were off the charts compared to raw and bringing savage and hogan to wcw gave them a second wind.

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  165. That's true, and I'm not saying Bryan would beat the NWO (he's no Austin or Rock). But that would make him of comparable popularity to Shawn Michaels or Bret Hart, who also couldn't beat the NWO. The popularity scale looks like this:

    1) Hogan/Austin/Rock/NWO
    2) Cena
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    3) Punk/Bryan/Bret/Shawn
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    .
    .
    .
    .
    4) Everyone else
    5) Zach Ryder

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  166. But no Prime Time? Boo!

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  167. I tried to find it cause I knew someone would ask. It was an interview with someone. I'll keep trying to find it



    He still came up with it but he ran it before Vince to make sure it was ok.

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  168. Just so you know, you haven't backed up anything about Bryan with anything other than some immeasurable "pop" argument. Bryan has main evented 4 ppvs. Two of them were huge flops, and two of them did fine but Bret out drew them many times. If you want to talk merch, Bret was #1 for three years. Bryan isn't even #1 right now.

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  169. RR 93: good lord their were talent thin here. Really dumb move to have Flair, Perfect and so on so early. However 2014 HOFer Carlos Colon just came in.

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  170. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 11:06 AM

    The potential HOF list is getting REALLY short at this point, which is why I don't understand why they're stacking these classes so much. Why even put in Razor Ramon at all this year? Razor, Jake, and Warrior are all guys who could potentially headline a year on their own, yet they're going in together? Any one of those guys plus Paul Bearer (with Taker inducting), Lita, and Mr. T (with Hogan inducting) makes for a full show. Seems like poor planning, and it's also gonna make that show really looooong.

    I went to the HOF last year, and the long middle portion (Booker, Trish, Backlund, Trump) between Foley and Bruno was really tough to get through because it was so overbooked. Foley and Bruno plus Trump and any one of the other three would have been more than enough to sell out MSG.

    So yeah, I just don't get why they cram so many people in every year.

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  171. Who's Austin in this??

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  172. Yup Bruno, flair, race, savage, dusty etc might as well never have existed.

    Its funny how people are so certain that everything that is happening right now IS THE GREATEST EVER!!!!!!!!

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  173. Watched the top 10 blunders countdown last night and it was hilarious. Ever wanted a professionally-made supercut of Sid Justice's promo follies? well here ya go....

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  174. The ECW PPVs don't hold up today because, when removed from the angles that played out on TV every week, you're just left with the wrestling. And there were some horrible fucking wrestlers in ECW in prime spots. Even some of the better ones were often sloppy.

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  175. We all know the next big up and comer in WWE is either Triple H, Randy Orton, or that young stud named Batista.

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  176. I've never been a fan of Orton and probably never will be but I think you do the man a big disservice. I think the only thing he's really struggled with is the crowds hijacking his segments but the booking of Bryan, Orton himself, the title(s) and Punk's departure has meant that Orton has been hung out to dry on so many occasions I actually feel sorry for him.

    Cena is death to anyone not named Punk or Bryan and outside of Sheamus I can't think of anyone who has had anything better than a clunker with Big Show, so you can hardly pin those on Orton.

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  177. As you can probably see, I didn't attempt to include every popular wrestler in history. You are welcome to waste your time making a popularity scale with every single one of those people as well as Abe Lincoln, Gorgeous George, and all the Moondogs.



    Just don't forget to put Zach Ryder in dead last.

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  178. Cena wouldn't be #2

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  179. I didn't put him at #2 either. We finally agree on something!


    You're doing a great job starting your list. Keep going!

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  180. I found myself really enjoying all the Dean Ambrose bits. He's just got such a good style of talking, I was always happy when he popped in with some comments.

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  181. You say that now, but what of when poor Scott Hall has to go up there in one of those awful Scarface outfits?

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  182. Well your list proved nothing, I'm not even sure what the point was. I guess judging by your tone you really don't have one.

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  183. You realize that 1/4th of the HOF ceremony depends on DDP and leashes.

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  184. I'm honestly not sure where to find the buy rates, but your examples haven't been exactly apples to apples. You're looking at Bret's overall run as a main eventer, whereas Bryan is just getting established as a star in the company.


    Summerslam 1994 does make Bret look good, but he had been an established main event star for 2 years at that point.


    You should be looking at Summerslam 1992, Survivor Series 1992 and Royal Rumble 1993 for a more accurate comparison with Bryan's rise to the top of the company. For Shawn it would be the first few IYH after he won the title at WrestleMania 12.


    Merch-wise, also not entirely apples to apples. The Attitude era completely changed merchandising value for WWE, so Bryan at #2 or #3 likely outsells Bret at #1.

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  185. Amsterdam_Adam_CurryMarch 26, 2014 at 11:26 AM

    Razor is getting into the HOF? About fucking time.

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  186. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 11:27 AM

    "Cena is death to anyone not named Punk or Brya". Hmmm, would strongly beg to differ there. Love him or hate him, Cena has always gotten crowds wrapped up in the outcomes of his matches. The fact that a John cena match got "go away" heat for 20 minutes is really telling. That doesn't happen to John cena--- but that does happen to Randy Orton.

    You can't just dismiss the crowds hijacking and rejecting Orton's segments as a simple aside. The dude has been pushed as the unified champion, as a main eventer for not just the last 8 months but basically the last 8 years, and yet crowds are saying "We don't want to see this guy." That's a huge f'n deal. You know what else is a huge deal? That they had to completely restructure their Mania main event because Orton vs Batista couldn't sell the show.

    The booking has been far from perfect, but Orton has in no way risen above it. He's been rejected as a main eventer by the crowd, he's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's not a draw anymore, and he's proven that he's basically an upper-midcarder. I just don't see how one could look at these last 8 months and objectively come to any other conclusion.

    Yeah he's been good the last few months as a background comedy heel--- he should totally do that act alongside ADR, Christian, and Big E in midcard US title feuds next year.

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  187. Amsterdam_Adam_CurryMarch 26, 2014 at 11:27 AM

    Fun fact: I've never seen any of the Indiana Jones movies.

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  188. Dude! That's actually pretty awesome!

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  189. I agree its very hard to compare eras in any sport, but specifically wrestling when so much has changed. In a lot of ways we can't really compare anything because everything has changed. Just like in a few years ppv buy rates and TV ratings will be meaningless as any kind of measure.

    The best I can really say is that Bret kept the company afloat during a weird period and helped them expand internationally, while Bryan has thrived in whatever system the wwe has in place today.

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  190. Scott Hall's son will hopefully be around as well to help control them. Kid's a tank.

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  191. This has nothing to do with the debate below but just as an aside, could you imagine if Bret, Owen, and Shawn weren't in the WWF in 1994 and 1995? It would have been unwatchable.

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  192. Worst_in_the_WorldMarch 26, 2014 at 11:34 AM

    I'd actually separate Bret and Shawn in terms of this argument. Bret was way more successful at carrying WWF through the bad times and staying a popular babyface draw than Michaels ever was.

    Stripper Shawn was pretty much a flop as babyface champ, and by 6 months in the fans at MSG (I was there--- great goddamn show) wanted him roasted on a spit.

    If Shawn wasn't part of teh HHH/Vince inner circle (and benefit from their revisionist history) and didn't have that awesome workrate-filled second career, I doubt he gets remembered as any kind of "A+" player based on his 90s main event run.

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  193. The reason business was bad had nothing to do with them and started before they were ever on top.

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