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Counting Flair's World Title Reigns.


Hey dude, quick question. I remember many moons ago you posted on the
blog a list of all possible Ric Flair title reigns, where you got up
to the mid to late 20's depending on how lenient you were. I wanted to
check it out again but couldn't find it. Any chance you have it
somewhere in your databanks? Thanks!

Hoo boy, let's see if I can pull this out from memory again:

Documented/televised:  

1.  Dusty Rhodes in 81
2.  Harley Race in 83
3.  Kerry Von Erich in 84
4.  Dusty Rhodes in 86
5.  Ron Garvin in 87
6.  Ricky Steamboat in 89
7.  Sting in 91
8.  Fujinami in 91
9.  Royal Rumble 92
10.  Randy Savage in 92
11.  Barry Windham in 93
12.  Vader in 93
13.  Savage in 95
14.  Savage in 96
15.  Hogan in 99
16.  Jeff Jarrett in 2000

As well, there was a pair of switches with Race in New Zealand, a switch with the youngster Carlos Colon in Puerto Rico that created the WWC Universal title, a switch with Jack Venano  in the Dominican Republic, a switch with the Midnight Rider that was overturned, a switch with Victor Jovica in Trinidad, and as well you could possibly count the 91 victory over Sting as a double title victory (winning both WCW and NWA titles).  The final total can go as high as 24 I believe.  

Comments

  1. I never understood why WCW didn't count Flair's extra 94 reign when he had to controversial match with Steamboat. They had the double pin at Spring Stampede, held the belt up and Flair won the rematch on WCWSN. But that didn't count as an extra reign. It's weird because WWF did the same thing with Goldust and Jarrett to give them extra IC reigns.

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  2. Abeyance was officially still with the WWE at this point maybe?

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  3. "a switch with the youngster Carlos Colon in Puerto Rico"
    What's funny is that Colon wasn't even a youngster when THAT happened. He was 34.

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  4. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 2:00 PM

    No, the Windham title win at Beach Blash 93 is #10. His 16 recognized title wins are documented by WWE in numerical order on the back of Flair's Hall of Fame t-shirt from the 2008 ceremony.

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  5. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 2:05 PM

    It's because WCW never stripped/held up the title from Flair, officially. He went on a rant and threw the title at Commissioner Nick Bockwinkel. At that time, you couldn't just be like "I don't want to be champion!" and get your way. So in reality, it wasn't really Flair regaining the title, but winning the rematch. With Goldust and Jarrett, the title was officially held up.

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  6. In boxing, wrestling and any other sport in which titles are actually passed from one person to the next, I've never really been impressed by the "16-time champion" or "5-time champion" thing (whatever the number may be). Because it just reminds me that you also lost the title 16 times or 5 times (or whatever the number may be). Evander Holyfield being a 4-time heavyweight champ is less impressive to me than Joe Louis, who "only" won the title once -- but held the belt for like 12 years. It's not like other sports, where "10-time U.S. Open champion" or "3-time NBA champion" means you won a title that is refreshed and open to the field every year.

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  7. Adam "Colorado" CurrySeptember 23, 2014 at 2:11 PM

    I don't count that last one, to me Jarrett beat Flair for the vacant title.

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  8. So...Re: Jarrett -

    He comes into WCW, rocks the cowboy theme song, silver trunks, and feuds with...DDP if I recall. When does the whole NWO Silver thing happen, and wasn't Bret involved with that at some point?

    I just remember being very sick one morning and catching a lot of it, and it always stuck out in my head.

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  9. Yes, nWo silver formed in late December 99, lasted a few months.

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  10. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 2:15 PM

    nWo 2000 forms on the December 20, 1999 edition of Monday Nitro. Bret's career is over a month later, basically. January 2000-March 2000 of Nitro (in between Russo's stints) is the worst period in WCW history, bar none. AVOID.

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  11. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 2:16 PM

    WWE and WCW count it. Flair's "victory" (Nash awarding him the title) is on the Hall of Fame t-shirt. Flair beats JJ. Russo officially strips Flair. Nash beats JJ. Nash awards to Flair. JJ defeats Flair. LOL, all in a week.

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  12. Sad. In a couple of months NWO Silver just wound up being Jarrett and the Harris boys, with Steiner doing his own thing.

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  13. Adam "Colorado" CurrySeptember 23, 2014 at 2:18 PM

    Didn't all that happen in one night?

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  14. I'm a Shawn mark. I was a huge fan of his second run from 2002-10. But with the crap he pulled in the 90s especially 96-98, I wonder if the back injury was karma.

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  15. Basically, he just did it because he could. 1997 HBK in a nutshell.

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  16. how did Silver King not get a piece of this?

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  17. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 2:50 PM

    I'm pretty sure there were some matches where Hogan decided he wanted to win at the last minute that would qualify.

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  18. I think defenses per days as champion would be the most impressive stat.

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  19. He was paired with El Dandy and Stacy Keibler. Clearly he got the better deal.

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  20. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 2:54 PM

    Boxing counts champions in different weight divisions as well, which is why Manny Pacquiao is an 10 time World champion in 8 divisions.

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  21. Agreed, which is why I consider HBK's first IC title reign among the best. I think he defended it against every single midcarder on the roster.

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  22. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 2:55 PM

    What's a TV title?

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  23. Stranger in the AlpsSeptember 23, 2014 at 2:56 PM

    My opinion of this match is that it's a very good **** contest. Dying sister or not, HBK going over seemed like the crazy thing to do, especially with a hostile crowd. This is stuff that they don't have the balls to do anymore: turn everything upside down and shock the hell out of people. The bigger the ass HBK came across as, the more I liked him. I'm assuming that Bulldog was in no position to pitch a fit about the finish. Obviously, this is an indicator of the stroke Michaels had. HHH learned from the best.

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  24. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 2:56 PM

    Carlos Colon: The only wrestler alive with forehead scars as fucked up as Abdullah the Butcher.

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  25. The official number is twenty-two. THE END! WWE can say whatever they want to when Cena hits 17, but it won't count TO ME until he gets to 23, which will probably happen given the current state of the product.

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  26. I count it as a title change too.

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  27. Winning it back is why those numbers matter. First of all, WRESTLING IS FAKE, winners are determined beforehand, so, who cares! But, secondly, since some of us do care, I think it's far more of an accomplishment to win back the title after losing it. Most don't get the chance, and fail, if they do.

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  28. I totally forgot about that NWO reboot until I saw it on one of the network shows about the NWO. It was pretty bad and obviously very forgettable.

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  29. I ADMIRE YOUR TENACITY.

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  30. I thought it was nWo Elite? Or was that different?

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  31. Flair's great run during the Bash '86 tour...how many consecutive 'Broadways' did he do? That was a great program.

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  32. Yeah, I know boxing is a little more convoluted with the weight classes and different governing body belts, but in general, "3-time world champion" can often be less impressive than "one-time world champion" depending on how long the title was held.

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  33. I do think longevity should be taken into account, no matter if they lost it or not. I certainly agree Louis can be considered the greatest heavyweight champ of all-time because of that reign, but I don't necessarily discount Holyfield's accomplishments, either. From a cruiserweight title in 1986 to the heavyweight title in 2001 (more like 1999, but whatever), he was a guy who would continually climb up mountains to get those titles for 15 years.
    We could actually go another 7 years where he was robbed against Valuev, but that was a circus sideshow more than a title fight.


    I feel the same way about Randy Couture. Yeah, he lost the belt a few times, but the man was able to gain it back in his mid 40s. Just amazing.


    Your point is well taken, though.

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  34. Can you remember long enough to explain it to me? Sounds awful and hilarious.

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  35. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 3:26 PM

    Counting versions of the NWO is a bigger headache than counting Flair's world title reigns.

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  36. it was at this point Shawn and HHH were on just fucking with Bret to fuck with him. Both had been on the booking committee for awhile and Vince had obviously made his choice between Bret and Shawn.

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  37. I still love Monsoon giving the call that the ancient Colon was a youngster at the Rumble.

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  38. I'm surpsrised TNA never threw their title at him a few times tbh, it seems like exactly the kind of thing they'd have done when he was there.

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  39. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 3:30 PM

    Personally, in boxing, wrestling or MMA, I look at total combined days as champion between all reigns to decide who is the best. Like Sammartino holding the belt for 11 years combined over two reigns is equally impressive as Flair winning it 16-24 times and holding it for probably a combined 7 or 8 years.

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  40. Adam "Colorado" CurrySeptember 23, 2014 at 3:30 PM

    I think "nWo Elite" was the main group after the fingerpoke. The silver was officially called nWo 2000.

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  41. Dusty's forehead would like a word.

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  42. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 3:32 PM

    His first world title reign was good too. Even with a thin roster, he had consistently great matches any made everyone look like a threat.

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  43. Adam "Colorado" CurrySeptember 23, 2014 at 3:38 PM

    So would New Jack's.

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  44. I believe PWI counts his reigns in 1991 as two: a wcw title (created 1/1/91 and won by him for the first time on 1/8/91) and a NWA title.

    Also didn't the NWA recognize him as "losing" the NWA title to Fujinami and then winning it back at Superbrawl in May that year?

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  45. New Jack's forehead is pretty cracked too

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  46. So Brock beating Taker and ending the streak wouldn't count as "turning everything upside down and shocking the hell out of people"?

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  47. It's still real to you, damn it?

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  48. Yes, that's right.

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  49. As far as Flair goes, yes, it is.

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  50. Wrestling titles are not real. You know what's real? Unpaid bar tabs and court orders.

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  51. Try counting Big Show's heel-face turns.

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  52. Adam "Colorado" CurrySeptember 23, 2014 at 4:09 PM

    The belt that Jay Lethal has in ROH.

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  53. No Bulldog hometown feel good moment would have been worth missing on the spectical Shawn made of himself. That's just classic asshole right there.

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  54. One of the greatest wrestling legends ever. Think it's on that horrible list of urban legends.

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  55. Flair will give the bar the belt for collateral. WOOOO!

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  56. Putting the top heel over a midcarder to give him heat? If the British Bulldog can beat Shawn Michaels it's not such a big deal when Steve Austin does it. Shirty circumstances with Bulldogs sister and him dedicating the match to her but some guys have to take one for the team.

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  57. Basically, Sunny used to fuck Ahmed Johnson for Chris Candido's coke, and then HBK stole Chris' coke, fucked Sunny, Chris caught them, and Shawn thanked him for the extra coke.

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  58. Silver actually did make sense in that it was all ex-WWF guys. But again, it was just another rehash and looked stupid.

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  59. He said wrestler ;)

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  60. Dean Ambrose is gonna be a superstar.

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  61. The current state of the product is making Reigns the new number one guy, or barring that, Ambrose. However I could see Cena getting one or two more short title runs.

    Also, the winners write the history books. Hell, they're basically going by what WCW said anyway.

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  62. Vince Russo - Booking genius

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  63. 1) Love threads like this.
    2) Vince Russo would call every commenter here retahded for caring.

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  64. did they involve a dying family member?

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  65. Stranger in the AlpsSeptember 23, 2014 at 4:44 PM

    It used to be a more common occurrence. Your example is valid, however.

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  66. The switches with Race were in my old stomping ground of Wellington. I was pretty gobsmacked when I found out, actually. Although NZ was officially an NWA territory I never thought anything of any real importance happened here with regard to wrestling.

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  67. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 4:55 PM

    Roman Reigns won't draw flies.

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  68. Steve Austin beating whoever had the title at WM was basically just a formality by late 1997. I don't actually think letting UK fans have a moment would have done undue damage to Shawn. But of course, Heaven forbid Shawn dosen't get what he wants.....

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  69. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 4:55 PM

    Incorrect.

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  70. There's only one Greatest Intercontinental Champion of All Time, however.

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  71. Well in that case, why did he say Abdullah the Butcher?????

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  72. Don't say his name or WWE will sue you.

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  73. Gunther the Nasty LoserSeptember 23, 2014 at 5:44 PM

    Also:

    Apparently the title was held up after the draw at Spring Stampede 94 against Steamboat, and whichever rematch was for the vacant title.

    Also, him unifying the Big Gold Belt International title with the WCW title against Sting at that Clash in '94

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  74. It's the British Bulldog, what's the big deal? They had the top heel fuck over a sympathetic midcarder to put heat on him.

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  75. It was a show that was basically only shown in England, where Bulldog was considered the top draw and the European title was meant to be a drawing card in Europe.


    There was zero reason for HBK to go over besides him being a dick.

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  76. Gunther the Nasty LoserSeptember 23, 2014 at 5:47 PM

    King Curtis, plus Google Villano III and Kintaro Kanemura

    http://officialfan.proboards.com/thread/468645/page/2/worst-forehead-wrestling

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  77. I love how people are acting like if DBS went over it would have cured his sister. The match was a work, hopefully Diana or Davey explained that to her years before. She has front row seats and probably had a great time. Plus hbk winning was a great heel moment.

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  78. Were they fucking with Bret? Or is it just the whole "not being all about Bret=Fucking with Bret" theory?

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  79. Flair didn't really lose the belt 15 time. Wrestling is a work and those outcomes were predetermined.

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  80. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
    *4*

    No matter who does what THE NATURE BOY is the goat

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  81. Gunther the Nasty LoserSeptember 23, 2014 at 5:54 PM

    I doubt it

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  82. Gunther the Nasty LoserSeptember 23, 2014 at 5:56 PM

    Also, there are tons of title changes that "never happened" b/c they were done to keep the locals at bay lest their beloved babyface hero get beaten by the dirtiest player in the game (or any heel champ in the old days) and they riot.

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  83. Gunther the Nasty LoserSeptember 23, 2014 at 5:56 PM

    ...DAFUQ?!

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  84. WCW didn't recognize the Fujinami switch because it was the NWA title, not the WCW one. The NWA itself recognized the switch, and WWE doesn't control the NWA title, so it counts in my books.

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  85. By your logic, Flair didn't really win the belt 16 times either.
    Of course wrestling is a work. I'm talking about within the framework of this worked sport that is presented as real, the way in which they hold number of title reigns above length of title.

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  86. The European title was a vanity title Bullldog was given in his contract renegotiation. They ran pay per views in the UK after this and did just fine.

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  87. CruelConnectionNumber2September 23, 2014 at 6:22 PM

    The NWA didn't have national TV in 1991 (and was essentially dead) so I don't count it. I always defer to PWI's system. Be like calling Don Muraco a former World Champ because he was the Eastern Championship Wrestling champ. Now when their champ started appearing regularly on TV in 1992-93 with Chono, Muta, Windham, Flair, etc... I can do that.

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  88. To what end? Shawn did SFA with the Euro title.
    Anyway, the fact that it was 'just' the Bulldog is kind of my point. He wasn't any threat to Shawns position and Shawn didn't need the title. Furthermore, ONO was a throwaway show in the grand scheme of things, in countries that didn't see WWE wrestling much it could be considered good business to send the audience home happy rather than letting your resident primadonna troll it just because he can. Then there's the small matter of the younger sister dying of cancer who's in the audience, not Shawns fault she had cancer but the fact that he got the finish changed anyway speaks volumes about his attitude.
    Under those circumstances, it wouldn't have killed Shawn to lose by a rollup or DQ. Just sayin.....

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  89. It was also designed to give international shows a boost.


    The whole show was the conquering hero in front of a dying sister beats Shawn Michaels. To get the finish changed otherwise is just being dick for the sake of being a dick.


    If Bret Hart had done this, you'd be the first to condemn him.

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  90. You really do just resent Bret for even having a career, don't you?

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  91. Successful defenses at Beware of Dog PPVs also.

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  92. I think being a multiple time champion in boxing is impressive

    Climbing to number one in the world is hard, doing it again is amazing.

    Especially when wierd politics lead to vacated boxing titles all the time.

    With flair, I ask this.

    He won 16 title matches from his title wins alone, you then have to add his defenses to thay for the sheer number of title matches he won.

    16 by itself is more title match victories then most one time champions will have in their career.

    Now I would agree a guy who is champion for many years is more* impressive then champion many times.

    But there is value in winning a lot of titles.

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  93. This I'm more inclined to get on board with as a barometer.

    But you have to control for quality of opisition and the number of defenses.

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  94. Exactly. Thanks for sharing, so I didn't have to. Though just reading that again is horrible enough.

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  95. You can't say Wayne Ferris any more?

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  96. None of this has anything to do with the fact there was zero reason for HBK to go over Bulldog except to be a dick

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  97. No, I used to like Bret just fine, I just don't see why Vince deciding the WWF wasn't going to be about Bret Hart any more is treated like the crime of the century. So the Hart Foundation didn't come out of everything smelling like roses? Well it wasn't about them anymore, what's the controversy?

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  98. Yes, to be a dick and get major heel heat. He didn't win remotely clean. So one guy has to take one for the team to get another guy over for another guy - that's wrestling.

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  99. That's not what happened at all

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  100. The whole point of the match was to give Bulldog a crowning moment in his home country. Give the fans a feel good show. HBK did even less with the Euro belt than Davey did.

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  101. Only if he changes his name to Shane Ambrose.

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  102. A guy was going out in front of his home country in a match dedicated to his dying sister as the big hometown moment is forced to job because Shawn Michaels is a dick.


    I know you'll defend HBK on anything because it's your shtick, but come on.

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  103. The wrestling business survived just fine without the British Bulldog's big moment in England.

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  104. What about Brock squashing Cena like a bug?

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  105. Continuing to miss the point but sure.

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  106. And don't forget Steiner's promo on Flair that supposedly almost got him fired.

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  107. The WWF stopped revolving around Bret Hart and suddenly everyone's an asshole in his eyes. Everyone's wrong but Bret and the idea that Bret Hart can't be WWF Champion anymore is absurd!

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  108. Nope.


    http://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/2gq30x/dave_meltzer_on_wwes_coverage_of_the_montreal/

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  109. Bulldog wasn't treated like a conquering hero on the 1999 UK ppv, is that wrong to? They put Bulldog in sympathetic situation where you want to see him win and then have mega-asshole heel Shawn cheat to fuck him over and make people hate him even more.

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  110. He was put over big time at Rebellion

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  111. The show wasn't built around Bulldog's dying sister, none of that came up until he brought it up.

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  112. I defend him because just because he was a drug addicted asshole doesn't mean he has to be jobbing to the Harts when it's been decided that Shawna the top heel going forward and the Harts are on the way out.

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  113. The match was built around the Bulldog being the conquering hero and knocking off HBK. That's why they booked the match and that's what the finish was meant to be.


    His dying sister was in the crowd to see him win. That was the whole point of the show.


    Even HBK will freely admit he was a dick in 1997. Why can't you?

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  114. So why did Vince change it? Because it was proposed and he thought it made good business sense. It's the British Bulldog, a Midcard guy who'd already seem better days, is it that big a deal? The Harts were going on the back burner so why not use then to put heat on the top heel? There's no way 1997 Bulldog should be goin over 1997 Shawn Michaels anyway.

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  115. Because Shawn did that shit all the time and always got his way? A lot of people think he did it to send a message to Bret.


    And yea, it is a big deal.

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  116. And how do you know it was all changed just for the sake of being a dick? That's Bret Hart logic 101 right there - anytime he's supposed to lose or look bad for someone else's benefit everyone's just being a dick.

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  117. Well if a Shawn wore black pants Bret took it as a personal attack so he would take it that way.

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  118. There was the original nWo with the outsiders and Hogan. Then Dibaise and Giant joined, along with X-Box and Bischoff.

    The Bischoff did his open season angle that gave us Bagwell and Norton as nWo dudes. Along with Big Bubba and VK Wallstreet.

    Then JJ Dillon replaced Bischoff as executive Vice President, but in a Russo moment Bischoff never acknowledged it or sold it and within weeks he was once again executive Vice President with no explanation. During Dillon's brief run that lasted years although he was literally a figure head of figure heads - he ordered VK Wallstreet to quit the nWo because he was still under WCW contract -- so VK wore an anti-WCW T-shirt instead. Oh and Bubba got injured legit and returned under his real name of Ray Traylor.

    Oh and Dibiase eventually turns face and manages the Steiner brothers and then vanishes after Steiner turned heel.

    So you have Steiner as white thunder, then Buff breaks his neck -- could have turned epic baby face but instead turned heel and did this 20,000 times. Oh and Chono was the Japanese nWo member which led to Muta returning to WCW only to join the nWo. And the Savage joined because they bought him with Elizabeth or something. Oh and Elizabeth joined kind of defacto but not really. And Jarrett refused to join Hulk Hogan's fan club. Then you had 1998 and the wolf PAC with X-Lax leaving and Nash taking Savage, Luger and Sting -- plus the Giant turned NWo Hollywood when Bug Show broke his neck -- I can't finish this right now

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  119. Because being an asshole doesn't mean he should never win ever or that he was pushed over Bret just ecause he's a big meanie and Vince just let him do what he wanted. The top heel doesn't need to be jobbing to the British Bulldog, Bulldog was close to done at that point - and just as drugged up as Evil Shawn was.

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  120. The one where he hit Stephanie in the head with a trash can?

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  121. Beat X-Pac convincingly, laid out Stephanie and was involved in the main event.

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  122. There was no reason for HBK to go over than he was being a dick.

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  123. This came shortly after Michaels had gotten the finish of the European title match with Davey Boy Smith changed in a U.K. match, as Smith was going to beat Michaels to retain his title. The office booked it that way largely to prove to the locker room Michaels would lose a big match because so many guys were mad, because Michaels had publicly talked in the locker room about how he doesn’t do jobs. Smith had then dedicated the match on television to his sister, who was dying of cancer. Then, the night of the show, they came to Smith and said that they were switching the title, with the idea of building a huge rematch on a U.K. only PPV early the next year where he’d beat Michaels. This came in the dressing room just before the match and he couldn’t even tell his sister beforehand that he was losing, and she did not take it well. I know this sounds silly today over a “fake” wrestling match but it was a different business then. You want to know how much heat Michaels had. In that period, there were two wrestlers I had to talk out of fighting with Michaels (neither of which was Hart, because he and I weren’t on speaking terms at that time), because I told them it wasn’t worth losing your job over, and both were guys who would have been fired in an instant for it. This was well before Hart was leaving.

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  124. Bulldog dedicated the match to his sister on TV. He came out looking like a chump

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  125. As a heel, that's not the conquering hero returning home.

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  126. He was still booked strongly in his home country. Much better than One Night Stand.


    At Insurrextion the next year they even let him beat Crash Holly for the hardcore title, even though he was all but done.

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  127. I'd like more common occurrences.

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  128. None of this happened

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  129. How were they essentially dead? Flair was still NWA champion on a national TV show up until his departure in July! WCW might not have played up the name on TV, but they were still a member of the organization.


    It counts.

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  130. One of the backstage reasons to book the match was to show the locker room that HBK would be willing to do a job. He had nuclear heat in the locker room in 1997

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  131. LOL is there any show the WWE could put on that you wouldnt like?? That was a steaming pile of shit for 3 hours and you know it.

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  132. Stranger in the AlpsSeptember 23, 2014 at 7:46 PM

    When I watched it live, it didn't have that feeling that Taker losing or the Hogan heel turn had. Surprising, yes, but not OMG-style shocking.

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  133. He did, but why is that such a big deal? It's just the British Bulldog.

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  134. Because it's unnecessarily cruel.

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  135. Shawn never won clean. It's not like he was dominating the locker-room he was playing a chicken shit heel who needed three guys to help him win and ran away from fights. He did what a heel does - brags cheats and barely escapes with his title until the hero finally puts him down.

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  136. Stranger in the AlpsSeptember 23, 2014 at 7:52 PM

    This thread has been pretty awesome thanks to two guys.

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  137. He's famous for getting out of doing jobs

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  138. I just think it's a great moment in terms of putting Shawn over as a hateful asshole. He cheats the Bulldog and breaks the fans hearts and celebrates like the biggest asshole in the world. It's a shit deal for Bulldog but in the big picture it puts more heat on Shawn for bigger feuds. He didn't have to win the title but why can't he leave him laying? I just look at their positions on the card and I don't think it's the worst thing to "bury" a past his prime midcarder for the sake and building up the top heel.

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  139. Gets him over even more as a red hot heel act plus it's just a throw away mid card belt.

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  140. He didn't need it.

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  141. OK, why COULDN'T he just lose on a fluke rollup then lay out Bulldog to keep his heat?
    I agree with a lot of the other posters here that the whole thing just seemed unecessary and frankly a bit cruel.

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  142. I don't dispute that Harts time at the top of the card was over by late '97. The problem I have, and I don't think I'm alone, is the manner in which the whole process was handled. But it's a VERY busy afternoon at work so I'm going to have to leave it at that. Have a nice evening (or whatever time of day it is in Canada).

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  143. No one remembers the Steamboat-Flair rematch from Saturday Night. That's the ignored reign that drives me crazy since the commentary clearly stated that the belt was held up and the winner would be champ. Flair winning would started his 12th reign. Not his 13th since the title loss and win against Harley Race in 84 outside the US weren't recognized at the time. But they did recognize them later only for WWE and NWA to ignore them again. Or something. Whoo.

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  144. I remember really hating how this one ended too. Just really mean-spirited and pointless. Bulldog loses as a hugely popular hero in his country, then at the end of the match, he's humiliated further with Triple H and Michaels shoving a microphone in his face and saying "Scream for you country, Bulldog!" Then, he moans pathetically and they beat on him more.



    This pissed me off as much as what happened to Bret Hart in Montreal (if not more). At least Bret's feud with Michaels wasn't so one-sided. This was just sadistic and depressing for no purpose since it never lead to British Bullddog getting revenge. Some might think this was smart storytelling because it got so much heat by making Bulldog more sympathetic and Michaels more despicable. I assert that it WOULD have been smart if Bulldog eventually got revenge. But he didn't.

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  145. Seriously, you'd defend Shawn if he molested a little kid.


    "That kid got the ride of his life, what's to complain about?"

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  146. not sure why I'm going to bother but....the issue with the match was not Bulldog losing. Yeah Shawn didn't need the win or the title and Davey Boy had a dying sister or whatever, but I have no issue with Shawn winning. The issue most peope and myself have is the Hart Foundation being made to look like chumps. For months they always have each other's backs. Then suddenly they can't come out to the ring while Davey Boy is being double teamed for a whole frickin' match? Or even after the match for the beatdown and subsequent abuse of Diana? There were other examples during this period where suddenly the same guys who were booked as smart, strong, loyal, etc. became morons.



    I have no issue with Bret being shunted down the card. Or Owen (punishment for injuring Austin). Or Bulldog. But when they are booked, be logical. It's the same argument folks had with Flair in the late 90s being booked to get his ass kicked for 5 minutes before his buddies bothered to come down to the ring. I actually agree with Vince that Bret wasn't a good fit for the new direction of WWE and that he wasn't worth the contract. I just take issue with how it was all handled and with Vince being too stupid (although it obviously ended up working out) to have Bret drop the belt BEFORE telling him he planned on breaching his contract and daring him to go to WCW or sue.

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  147. The Harts were only on their way out because Shawn was a dick and blamed the Harts for all his problems.

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  148. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 8:56 PM

    It's like a Game of Thrones that just gets worse.

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  149. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 8:57 PM

    That's true. Because of Bruno's megalithic reign, how many of those do you want to bet were just proto-Hogan era monster of the months.

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  150. Virgil's Gimmick TableSeptember 23, 2014 at 8:58 PM

    I'm tempted to study this on the network but I'm not quite that suicidal.

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  151. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 9:14 PM

    ...you're welcome.

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  152. Ugh just end this meddling conversation

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  153. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 9:16 PM

    I shouldn't laugh at that but fuck it..




    LMAO

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  154. Not even near his level

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  155. This match still irks me and always will. I mean it's not like the one loss would have affected Shawn at all. Hulk lost to Luger right before this on Nitro and he was still strong the rest of the year

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  156. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 9:23 PM

    Damn...

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  157. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonSeptember 23, 2014 at 9:29 PM

    Now that I've watched this for the ba-zillionth time i wonder if the original ending (with Bulldog winning) involved Dx attacking DBS at the end so she could run in?

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  158. Anyone else think WWE should've given Flair one token little reign as WWE/World champ during his final run with the company? It would've been a popular storyline and might've been drawn some extra TV viewers. There are plenty of ways to book around Flair being an old guy and still winning...he wins a battle royal for the vacant world title (in early 2006 or mid-2007, the ones Angle and Khali won), or he just simply cheats like crazy to beat a heel champ like HHH or someone.

    Or, Flair is put into the WM23 Money in the Bank match and wins the briefcase. He carries it the whole year, then HBK wins the title in the interim, and Flair cashes in at WM24 in a Career vs. Title match. Boom.

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  159. When the hell did he beat Jarrett? Nitro? Is that when nash gave him the belt cause "he deserved it" and flair promptly loses it to Jarrett an hour later?

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  160. That's so magnificently dickish you almost have to salute him.

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  161. I admit the Bulldog stuff may have been on poor taste, but it's the wrestling business and a heel getting one over on a face is part of it - and the circumstances lead to amazing heel heat. I could do without Bulldogs sister being mentioned but him losing in England doesn't bother me at all as it makes people hate Shawn, which was the poor, and Bulldog had plenty of England moments over his career. And in 1997 the British Bulldog isn't on Shawn Michaels level......but the Bret stuff gets muddied because Shawn was a dick head. Shawn was the better choice to go with, Bret's ran his course and Vince made his decision which was in part based on finances but likely also because Bret was just as big a headache as Shawn. Vince deciding the Bret Hart era was over and daring to suggest he lose the title isn't at all unreasonable but there's this attitude where it's all simply due to Shawn being an asshole and Vince being evil. Maybe it was just business and Bulldog losing was meant to be part of a bigger picture?

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  162. There's even less reason for Shawn Michaels to be losing to British Bulldog in 1997. Maybe it was a booked on a corner situation but Shawn shouldn't lose to Bulldog.

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  163. But not everything leads to revenge. Some faces have to get shit on to build the heel - and Bulldog had his moments in England.

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  164. But who really says he did that shit all the time and got away with it? Bret? The internet? Shawn Michaels had a pretty good mind for the business so maybe not everything he suggested was simply to feed his ego or duck Bret Hart - and even if he did at times, who's to say Bret and his attitude didn't deserve it?

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  165. Once Shawn became a top guy/champion he jobbed as much as Bret did.

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  166. And Bret Hart would molest a kid and say it was Shawn and Vince's fault.

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  167. So Bret's bickering about not looking strong going into WM12 was unnecessary because Shawn was winning anyway?

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  168. That's not remotely true. It was Shawn's time and Bret had a vocal stick up his ass about it. Vince decided the Bret Hart era was over and Shawn fit the company's direction more but because it's not about Bret Hart it's evil and wrong.

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  169. But nobody disliked Bulldog, and he was screwed over by 4 people - maybe it was seen as just a business move and not Shawn wanting to be a jerk just because? I don't like his dying sister being involved but ain't that kind of the controversial thing Vince would eat up and not necessarily just Shawn messing with Bret?

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  170. OK, I've got to admit that was a good comeback!

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  171. HHH > Jericho is in contention for that title, too.

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  172. People rip Shawn for his issues but Bulldog had his England moments in his first run them had his career stall because of a failed steroid test and nearly killing a guy in a bar. Bret himself acknowledges Bulldogs drug problems and Diana called him an abusive drug addict in her book...so he's not on any moral high ground over Shawn. Take away the involvement of his dying sister and I see no problem with having Shawn cheat, blatantly, to beat him for the surprise and crazy heel heat he got from it. I think the outrage is an extension of the "bad Shawn poor Bret" belief.

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  173. Not sure what that has to do with ONO, but considering what a lame duck Bret looked like going into WM I think there was a fair point mixed in with the wounded feelings.

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  174. Can't remember the exact wording, but Michaels even made a joke about it in his pre-match promo. "But the one positive is that this match, thankfully, is not for my coveted European Title. Whew!"

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  175. I think I meant that for another comment but the gist was that Bret bickered that he wasn't made to look strong as champion going into WM12 when putting Shawn over as a hateful asshole just made him a bigger deal for Austin to beat. At this point it's going to be about Austin and you need to establish Shawn as one hateful prick.

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  176. Of all the stories of Vince being a cold, control freak business man, why are we supposed to believe he let Shawn call his own shots? They both say that they'd argue a point and Shawn would so what Vince wanted. I know it didn't turn out great for the Harts but that doesn't mean decisions were wrong and Bret's ego and Bulldog's drug problems were as much or more to blame than simply Shawn's mean.

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  177. The heel heat didn't lead to anything, so that point is fairly moot.
    Really, to me, the whole thing is reminiscent of HHH/Booker, whereby someone is built up as such a sympathetic babyface going into a match......only to be jobbed out in humiliating fashion to the asshole heel anyway. It may make some business sense but just leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouth that it probably winds up doing more harm than good.

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  178. Sorry, wires crossed a bit. Umm ...broadly what I think I meant was that as Austin was winning at WM no matter what it was fairly unimportant (within reason) how well HBK was booked in the lead up. His fued with Taker would have made up for any loss of face if he had lost to Bulldog.
    Broadly the same thing could be said about the leadup to WM 12, although I don't blame Bret for being irked by it.

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  179. Next we count how many times Ric has cried on television! Go!

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  180. Wikipedia has the stats for how many reigns and days as
    champion people had. That WCW title.



    Average length of DDP’s 3 title reigns = 10 days (rounded to
    the nearest full day)

    Average length of Savage’s 4 title reigns = 13 days

    Average length of Jarrett’s 4 title reigns = 15 days

    Average length of Nash’s 5 title reigns = 19 days

    Meanwhile, average length of Hogan’s 6 title reigns = 196
    days. Hogan saw the value of having the belt around your waist even if nobody
    else did.

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  181. There was a match with HHH in Carolina back in I think 2003 where he really should have gone over.

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  182. I was referring more specifically to Shawn's antics and no one else's.

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  183. YankeesHoganTripleHFanSeptember 24, 2014 at 7:01 AM

    Eh...I prefer counting the time's he elbow dropped his own jacket.

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  184. That's a good one too.

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  185. It always comes back to Bret Hart for you. Your personal vendetta is odd. I feel like I went back to 2002 and it's when everyone had to pick a side- Bret or HBK

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  186. No one is arguing any of this but nice try to deflect the issue. Even though Bret Hart really has nothing to do with this, if he pulled what HBK pulled here, you'd be apoplectic.

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  187. They changed the match telling Davey Boy he would get his revenge next time they came to London. Which was obviously complete bullshit.

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  188. I think we fans should demand fiscal responsibility from our pro wrestlers.

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  189. Well Bret was put in a situation where he very obviously was to lose and refused.


    I just don't actually see what the major crime is here other than the mentions of Bulldog's sister - the good guys don't always win.

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  190. Maybe he would have if he didn't quit?

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  191. Is that the one were Ahmed said something like "I barter" and looked at Sunny? So Candido left Sunny in Ahmed's room and when she got the coke she took it to Shawn's room?

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  192. I linked you to the reddit story that lays out what happened with Montreal. It's not as black and white

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