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Foley and Context

Hey Scott,

Justin Henry here. First off, thanks for contributing to my Dean Ambrose article for Fighting Spirit a couple months back.Turned out very well, actually.

After reading the thread on Foley's pre-ECW resume, it got me to thinking. Fans today who never saw Mick wrestle prior to, say, 2007, might see him as some fat buffoon who makes lame puns and comes off like the blissfully out-of-touch uncle. Of course, you, me, and many older fans remember his gift-of-gab in WCW and ECW, and of course, the inhuman amount of punishment he'd take in redefining the wild brawl.

So for question fodder: looking back to your formative days of fandom, what wrestler, above all others, did you misjudge when you first saw him, not realizing that his prior work was as legendary as it was?

For me, getting into being a fan as a five-year-old in 1989, I thought Dusty Rhodes was just some fat ass that unclogged toilets and danced with an older black woman. I had no frame of reference that he was a brilliant speaker and gifted booker that warred with Ric Flair and Tully Blanchard in a series of bloody brawls and high-drawing main events.

Who's your pick?

​Pedro Morales.  When I started watching in 86 he was a curtain jerking jobber working the house show circuit against Honky Tonk Man, and then much later on I found out he was a former long-reigning WWF champion and New York legend.  He was still a shit wrestler, though, even when I saw his career prime stuff.  

​Also, my first exposure to Don Muraco didn't really give me a fair assessment of him, since he was deep into his big fat beach bum phase and I had never seen his more mobile stuff or his hilarious promos.  Or, indeed, Fuji Vice.  

Also, Dennis Condrey.  By the time I started watching the NWA on a regular basis, it was strictly the Eaton and Lane version of the Midnights and Condrey was this old-looking guy who I occasionally saw on a Crockett compilation tape.  I really didn't appreciate him until I started becoming a Midnights completeist and tracked down a bunch of their World Class and Mid-South run.  

Comments

  1. Ton of WWF guys that were in their twilight. Muraco, Morales, Dusty Rhodes (although I saw some in JCP in the mid to late 80s as well), Ax to a degree (his masked superstar work was quite good), Kerry Von Erich as Texas Tornado (man that guy was over in WCCW), Harley Race, the list could just go on and on. WWF liked to bring in big names for a final big payday, and who can blame Race, Rhodes, Kerry, etc. for getting some of that NY money.

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  2. Tito Santana. It wasn't until the 24/7 era I saw how good he really was; more often than not, he'd tear the house down and have the best match of the night, especially if he was fighting Savage or Hammer.

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  3. For me it was probably someone like Bobby Eaton

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  4. WWE had a string of commentators in the early 90's who you would think never made an earlier contribution to the business including Stan Lane, Dok Hendrix and - for a LONG time - Jerry Lawler.

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  5. What about The Bushwhackers?

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  6. Definitely Terry Funk for me.

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  7. God, Lawler. If you're only familiar with Creepy Old Shriekmonster Jerry Lawler...

    Actually, that's probably better. Better not to know he used to be a terrific heel and mic worker.

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  8. For me this applies to pretty much all the NWA vets who showed up in the WWF in the 80s. Funk, Race, Rhodes...I had only started watching WCW about a year before Flair came in, so I imagine I would have been confused about his hype if I hadn't known his legacy. The WWE was so entrenched in its monster heel formula at the time, that when a guy like Race came in, as a young fan, I didn't understand what was threatening about him.

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  9. ...Dusty Rhodes was a "gifted booker"?

    I didn't realize until recently just how much fun a Buzz Sawyer match could be.

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  10. Same here, and having started watching in '98, Ric Flair would also be on my list.

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  11. He created War Games. That alone gives him a pass for everything else.

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  12. "pass for everything else" might be a bit much, but he was definitely responsible for more good than bad. But he did have a habit of pushing himself fat beyond what was reasonable.

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  13. Tito Santana and Greg Valentine.

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  14. TseugThatsGuestSpeltBackwardsOctober 26, 2014 at 12:13 PM

    im hoping thats a hilarious typo.

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  15. I read that as Dusty being some fat ass that CLOGGED toilets.


    For me it was Greg Valentine. He was barely more than a job guy when I go into wrestling.

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  16. Michael Hayes.

    I haven't seen a single match the guy was in, but every time his mug pops up on something I get a little giddy cause I know I'm getting the premium 100% worked done up as a promoter-meets-carny-meets-oh-man-that-was-a-lot-coke story from a man who lived it.

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  17. Or also the Brain Busters. I'd read about them in the Apter mags, but never really seen them much. To me they were just a couple of dumpy looking wimps.


    I've long since come around. Tully in particular was pretty boss.

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  18. For Kerry, he was still a young guy and got the IC title immediately. If he kept his health up and not let the demons get to him, he could have been a main eventer in 92-93.

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  19. Ric Flair. Got into wrestling around 97 and he always looked like a loser and then he went away for a lot of 98.

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  20. I think Lawler's biggest downfall was that he waited too late to make the move out of Memphis/CWA/USWA. By the time he came to the WWF, his best years were about 5 years behind him.

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  21. I know I came to wrestling a little before most of the folks on this board but there were some acts I GOT even in the WWF like JYD, Terry Funk (he was a great crazy man and in WWF his crazy man act was a BIG contrast to the cartoonish heels and angles), and Brain Busters. Hayes is a good example of someone I didn't appreciate until later. It took seeing his WCCW stuff rather than his WCW late 80s early 90s stuff to get me to see what the big deal was.

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  22. Captain Lou. I watched him as super mario, the guy from the cindy lauper video and body slam movie. I had no clue he was an evil manager until years later.

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  23. Never understood why the WWF used them like they did. They were very effective as brutal, violent and ruthless heels.

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  24. but I personally did'nt take to him. I turned 18 in 91 so his Tornado gimmick seemed kinda stupid (a lot of WWF gimmicks started seeming stupid) and his ringwork wasn't real good, especially compared to his WCCW stuff that I've since seen. I mean Dusty was a big time player in WWF too, working upper card angles, but I thought his gimmick was awful and I just hated him. Now in retrospect I have a huge appreciation for how he took a shit gimmick and got himself as over as anyone in the company not named Hogan or Warrior at that point. So for me it wasn't their position on the card when I say I didn't appreciate them but rather their character, their mic work, and their ring work. I got into wrestling in 84 at the age of 11, a bit older than most when they first got into wrestling. As a result by the time WM4 rolled around, I could talk workrate and appreciate it even if I didn't know any of the insider terms or anything about the star system.

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  25. Big Show. I watch him now and cannot help but view him as some bulbous crying man but he used to scare Hulk Hogan and bearhug him with yetis.

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  26. because the WWF didn't do brutal, violent, and ruthless. They wanted some cuddly Australians and they fit the bill. They were old already at that point and got a cushy paycheck and easy comedy matches to work for the next 6 years or so.

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  27. Exactly right. Always kind of bothered me watching Tito go out there on a Summer Slam or Wrestlemania in the early 1990s and watch him job out quick to the latest slug of the month. Announcers would always mention his former title glories during the matches where he was being squashed by the freakin' Barbarian or whoever.

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  28. Their WWF careers eerily paralleled each other so much that one cannot think of one without thinking of the other. They are almost like Bizarro duplicates of each other.

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  29. Barry Windham and Bob Backlund. I only knew Backlund as the crazy old guy from this 1994 stint (which was admittedly still entertaining). I only vaguely remembered Windham from 80's NWA, so I knew him as the slow pudgy old guy in late 90's WCW rather than the guy who had 5-star classics with Flair.


    Also Superstar Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura. I had only seen their work from the twilight of their careers and just knew Ventura as the guy who was in Predator.


    And I hate to say it but I think my appreciation of Bret Hart was limited given that I didn't watch a whole lot of early 90's WWF but did watch his entire WCW career where he mailed it in constantly. Was kinda like only watching Bruce Willis films after 2006 or so.

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  30. I really had only heard of Kerry when he arrived in WWF, and thought he was terrible in the ring. Had the lazy moves imaginable and added nothing whatsoever to his matches. His quick squash of Mr Perfect for the IC title was a terrible decision and made Hennig look weak. I've always hated in general the way a new wrestler immediately gets a title shot and wins...undervalues the importance of the belt.

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  31. "Texas Tornado" was more of a nickname than a gimmick for Kerry Von Erich, since everyone in the WWF was givien a stupid nickname in the late-80s. He really didn't act like a gimmick. If Kerry wasn't so zoned out from drugs during that time he would have gone a lot further in his WWF stint.

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  32. Which partially (but not even close to fully) explains why all the secondary titles are so undervalued these days.

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  33. I started watching WWF in 86/87. NWA in 89. Then through the awesome power of ESPN got to watch AWA, WCCW/USWA, around 90, then global when they closed down and had subscriptions to PWI, the wrestler, and inside wrestling from 91 until like 93/94. So that being said I was aware of a lot of wrestlers. However there are a few I can think of.

    "Wildfire" Tommy Rich - how was this guy the hottest baby face in any territory let alone world heavy weight champion.

    Dusty Rhodes - watching the "Common Man" in WWF as your only reference point, how would you have any idea this guy was the performer that he was?

    Red rooster - how was this not a rib?

    Bushwackers - still haven't seen any of these famed bloodbaths with the fantastic but I'll take everyone's word for them.

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  34. "Playboy" Buddy Rose: I only saw him as the fat ass AWA tag team champ and WWF jobber. Never knew he was a good wrestler in his heyday... Now that I think about it.. the same goes for Adrian Adonis.

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  35. I used to read about the Sheepherders in the wrestling mags and I thought they were the roughest dudes around.. then they debuted int he WWF and I was like "Huh?"

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  36. Micheal Hayes - absolutely. Not until I started reading the magazines and finally saw some of his wccw stuff, I had no idea why this guy was supposed to a big deal. Eve though I saw him win the Nwa tag belts the first night I saw the nwa.

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  37. I'll say Dusty to. I only knew him from renting old shows and I didn't get why the fat guy in polka dots was such a big deal. I also thought Jim Duggan was mildly retarded and not once cared about anything he did so I was surprised to know he was good once.

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  38. My first introduction to Flair was his WWF run and I thought he was just some old man.

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  39. Harley Race. He did what he could with the "King" gimmmick but it was still a misleading introduction to an all-time great.

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  40. Backlund is pretty self explanatory.

    I'll also add Jerry Lawler. As a kid, I never knew about his Memphis run so to me he was just some goof wearing a crown who occasionally pissed Bret Hart off.

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  41. I wish Russo was around back he could call Race's fans the Racists.

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  42. Adrian Adonis. Dude could really go in his heyday.

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  43. Dusty too. Got into wrestling at 5 in '89, so my first exposure to him was a goofy fat dude in polkadots.

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  44. Same. I didn't understand why some old man with flabby tits was so good.

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  45. Patterson and Brisco

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  46. I've wondered before how big Windham would've gotten in his first run in the WWF had the travel schedule not caused him to leave. He and Rotunda were both good but I felt like Windham could've been the breakout star between the two of them had they both stuck around.

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  47. I still think Duggan is mildly retarded. He's certainly not a smart fellow

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  48. We can thank Bischoff for that nonsense.

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  49. The Love-Matic Grampa!October 26, 2014 at 2:01 PM

    Abdullah the Butcher, all the way. When he showed up in WCW, I honestly thought he was somebody's uncle or something who got hired as a gag.

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  50. You could've started watching in 95 and make that same exact statement...

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  51. What about the other way around?

    OH MY GOD THIS GUY IS GOING TO BE AWESOME

    *mouse fart*

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  52. Just listen to him speak - he basically created southern wrestling on his own. I'm surprised he hasn't taken credit for Austin 3:16 since he was holding the mic when Steve coined it

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  53. I sam him first in WCW in 93 and I thought: Who is this old man? ;-)

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  54. People who only know the Bushwhackers as the nutty comedy guys in WWF would be stunned to see them as the incredibly brutal Sheepherders who would do brawls with such blood ECW fans would be wincing.

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  55. Harley Race. His WWF tenure was rough but look at him in his prime as NWA champ, guy was a master heel worker and always a joy to watch do a tough match.

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  56. Bushwhackers should be in the WWE hall of fame. Seriously.

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  57. How about Kevin Sullivan? You know him by bad rep in WCW and wild antics but watch him in prime in Florida, that guy was on FIRE.

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  58. Dusty burned out in 1987, but in '85 and '86 he was GREAT.

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  59. Patterson and Brisco. Because the role I was introduced to them in was so radically different than what their wrestling careers would indicate.

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  60. I knew him first through his run as WWF king and thought he was some jobber they got off the scrap heap. Still not a fan of his work but he's still a legend in the biz

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  61. The one on Raw with Rusev not too long ago was also really good.

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  62. That goes for all the "usual gang of idiots" except Slaughter.

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  63. Adam "Colorado" CurryOctober 26, 2014 at 2:46 PM

    Ric Flair. I started watching in 95, and by then he just looked like some flabby old guy. And to think he was still around for another 15 years, and would still work today if someone paid him.

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  64. My nominee: Your first post on the BoD.

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  65. What did acts like the Bushwhackers make back in the day? Did everyone get a cut of the gate/merchandise?

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  66. the only time I saw them as heels was on family matters

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  67. The Playboy was s legend in Portland.

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  68. I know that the "Dusty over-pushed himself" theory has become accepted as fact, but I don't really buy it. He was as over as any face in the company and his title reigns with the big belt were brief. Sure, being booked so strongly helps keep a guy over, but Dusty had ridiculous charisma. Booking alone might get a guy over initially, but it won't keep him there.

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  69. I missed his first run (wasn't even aware of it until just now).

    For his second WWF stint in 1996, I think that stalker gimmick - as corny as it was - actually could have taken off if they had gone with the original plan.

    "Windham cut promos as a heel, displaying The Stalker as a deranged and dangerous former military man and was scheduled to start a feud with Marc Mero. However, behind the scenes, Mero refused to agree to the planned storyline that would have been kick started by The Stalker stalking Sable and appearing to cut her throat. Following Mero's rejection of this plot point their whole program was scrapped and Stalker was introduced with little fanfare as a babyface."



    thx Marc Mero, Insecure & Overprotective Husband of Sable.

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  70. I've always wondered the same thing about Rich. Maybe it was his never ending blood feud with Buzz Sawyer that got hom over.

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  71. Hacksaw. I never saw Mid-South so here was this loud moron with a flag. Even as a kid I found it corny. Thanks to the Internet I'm able to see a guy who was a very intense brawler.

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  72. For some reason, being reminded of how much better he was in Mid-South after not seeing his work back then since it initially aired has made me appreciate his work in the WWF more.

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  73. Harley Race: I thought he was just some sailor with a crown on his head. Had no idea he was a 7-time NWA champion until a few years after his retirement.

    I was renting Best of WWF videos as early as 1988-89 --- so I knew Lou Albano had been a heel. His video release actually never explained why he turned face, he just does out of nowhere on the video release. It is kind of funny the guy could play a good babyface, but was a legendary heel.

    George Steele: Apparently he was. Brute Bernard type brawler in the 1970's and then played dumb in the 1980's before turning face and actually being dumb. I think the guy might actually be a intelligent guy based on some of the shoot commercials I have seen.

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  74. He's a school teacher who wrestled on the side...yeah, playing dumb was a gimmick.

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  75. Giving good head is what got him the championship.


    Allegedly.

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  76. The answer to the Tommy Rich question involves lots of slurping noises.

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  77. Jerry Lawler ... I grew up in the DC area so I overlapped WCW and WWF pretty good starting in 88 but I had ZERO idea that Lawler was one of the territory legends and thought of him strictly as a buffoon/Bret Hart foil

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  78. the first time I saw a Sheepherders match my jaw dropped, I had to watch it again to make sure it was the same team.

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  79. If you grew up on the wwf machine like I did we were just conditioned to think other promotions were bush league and basically run out of someone's garage. So flair looked like a jobber compared to hogan and the larger than life dudes when we started watching his wwf run. Wasn't til later on that I appreciated the non-wwf stuff from the 80s

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  80. Am glad WWE has finally given a Sting DVD set as folks who only know him by his TNA tenure can see just how amazingly talented and exploding with charisma he was in his early days.

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  81. If you ever caught Orient Express in WWF, look them up when they were Badd Company in the AWA, great brutal heel team.

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  82. Harley Race. His NWA stuff was before I started watching JCP/NWA... I had no idea why I was supposed to care about hogan choking out a pudgy old guy with a jew fro that was wearing a crown.

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  83. I always think of the principal or whatever he was from Billy Madison when I think about George being a teacher.

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  84. Really? He terrified me as a kid even in WCW.

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  85. Rock vs. Hogan is a **** match based on the story and the flow. It truly is a solid match from Hogan.

    The rematch from 2003 was pretty bad for a lot of reasons because you could tell neither guy cared - they went out and did stuff and then Hogan jobs when the power goes out. It gets better each time I try to watch it, but it's ** at its best and a dud at its worst. If Hogan had won it cleanly, I might have rated it **** - but he didn't - so it isn't.

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  86. And the answer to the Red Rooster question is "It was"

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  87. Being and old guy that's been watching for 30 years it's hard to imagine a generation of fans that only would know sting from tna. But you're right and there probably are. Thing is it's easier now for ppl to research older footage. Back in the 80s you may have had read about guys via mags or on tape if you were lucky

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  88. "pushing himself fat beyond what was reasonable."


    That is a fun typo.

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  89. Adam "Colorado" CurryOctober 26, 2014 at 3:46 PM

    Yeah, he's fucking scary looking. Funny thing is by all accounts I've heard he's a really nice guy outside of the ring.

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  90. http://youtu.be/R9TqP5suWoA -- Not that bad of a match from what is shown.

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  91. Adam "Colorado" CurryOctober 26, 2014 at 3:50 PM

    No kidding. People say Kevin Steen doesn't look like a wrestler? Sullivan looked like a guy that would be begging for spare change outside the arena to buy some hooch.

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  92. Adam "Colorado" CurryOctober 26, 2014 at 3:51 PM

    I use "boss" as a greeting. Maybe it's a local thing...

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  93. It's a totally cromulent expression.

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  94. Virgil's Gimmick TableOctober 26, 2014 at 3:54 PM

    That's true, but for me its hard to rate. It's just like Malenko vs Benoit at Hog Wild. I don't want to give their work a bad rating just because a bunch of redneck bikers were shitting on their match. But I can't give them a good rating either because it's so frustrating to watch.

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  95. Virgil's Gimmick TableOctober 26, 2014 at 3:56 PM

    THE REVOLTING BLOB! You once sat on a man's head until he suffocated, didn't you?

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  96. I'll be that guy...


    "Stalker" was his THIRD WWF stint. Don't forget "the Widowmaker" in 89/90. (i.e. "Barry Windhman with a new nickname and exactly NO adjustment to his NWA Horseman gimmick.)


    When it came to "why wasn't he a bigger deal", it's gotta be because he wasn't around a fed long enough to get any traction. He definitely had the talent, and the backing of anybody in the office who mattered. But dude was just too transient, until ultimately, he was done.

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  97. As a child of the Attitude Era, I had no idea the Stooges were legendary competitors before battling the Mean Street Posse.

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  98. Superstar Billy Graham. Saw his comeback, thought he sucked and couldn't understand why WWF was making a big deal out of him.

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  99. Glacier. I actually was excited for his debut.. until he wrestled.

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  100. I'd say you, but no one thought you'd be awesome.

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  101. Me too. Harley Race has always looked exactly like a 1970s pro darts player.

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  102. I have to admit, the star ratings are the only reason I bother to read 99% of the wrestling reviews that I see online. Mostly I just look for any time someone rates something ****+ and use that as a rough guide for whether I should bother watching a match/segment. I usually skip the "analysis", which, more often than not, is just a summary of the play by play and which gives away the main plot/finish of the match.

    What I wouldn't mind seeing is a website devoted to rating matches where you could see histograms of user ratings (similar to amazon's rating system) and where you could look up a particular user's (or group of user's) ratings. Maybe have checkboxes for supporting reasons for the ratings (crowd heat, historical significance, workrate, psychology, etc.). Then people could search for matches that meet their favorite criteria. Any tech-savvy people feel like working on that?

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  103. Yeah, check out his DVD, stunning how much he changed the game and Hogan openly admits basing so much of his act on Graham like many others.

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  104. Hey, when he started, Show could actually throw dropkicks.

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  105. Outback Jack is still the standard here isn't he?

    All those vignettes and promotion leading up to his debut. They were determined to build up a guy to get some of that sweet Crocodile Dundee money that was sloshing around...

    And then in his first match, backwards clothesline ... it looked like a mistake. All the kids in my class on the following Monday were just puzzled by how non-awesome the debut had been.

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  106. You can call it trolling. I legitimately am baffled at why everyone loved it then and everyone loves it now. From a storyline standpoint, I get it. I was dying for Bryan to get the belt this year. But from a real life standpoint people seemed way too invested in guys like Benoit and so angry that companies wouldn't push them to the top.

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  107. He held in a fart for an entire car trip so as to not offend Mick Foley's wife.

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  108. I wonder what would have happened if Lawler and Luger "unified" their world titles, as was apparently rumored to happen in 1991.

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  109. Even if your willing to accept that he was over enough to be Flair's world title foil in 85-86, by 87 and 88 he's putting himself over Luger and into feuds with Windham, and that's just kinda sad. Then at the end of the year he's leeching off of Sting's heat in a feud with the Road Warriors (while also suggesting Flair should be dropping the title to RICK STEINER).


    So yeah I'm sticking with Rhodes was pushing himself fat beyond what was reasonable.

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  110. I don't know how you can't have what Big Show did early on in his career and not see him as perhaps the biggest big man in the sport.

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  111. Adam "Colorado" CurryOctober 26, 2014 at 4:34 PM

    Fuck HITC 2. That shit wasn't wrestling, it was a combo of CZW and Jackass. It shouldn't even be dignified with a rating.

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  112. I say all kinds of stuff. What do I know from people?

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  113. I remember rumours of Big Show hitting moonsualts in development before he debuted in the WWF.

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  114. Only way I would ever put Hogan over in the No Way Out match would be for the sake of Hogan vs Austin at WM19

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  115. I wish he was so a Race or a Mad Dog Vachon would rip his eyeballs out after getting one of his patented suggestions.

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  116. I don't think this is true, as TNA doesn't have much of an audience outside of smarks (at least state side)

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  117. Also because he never had the total drive a Flair or a Race had. He was content to be #2/#3, just as long as he was having fun.

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  118. Well, that's why star ratings should have a justification. Ratings that are just numbers are kinda pointless. Justify what you gave it. I mean, I've seen bad movies that have great acting, or writing or directing, or scoring, or special effect or whatever. But we acknowledge that even though the main appeal of the movie (whatever it might be) is good, the rest of us can let us down.


    And I suppose I'm aiming for a more holistic approach to star ratings.

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  119. I'm more than "willing to accept" that he was over enough in 85-86 to be Flair's foil, because he WAS. He was really the only face who could've been in that role. It was too early for Magnum and there was literally no one else. Look at the Bashes in those years. If Flair wasn't fighting Dusty, he was wrestling guys like Ricky Morton and Hawk. So yeah, he pretty much needed to be the foil for Flair.

    As for putting himself over Luger, you might want to consider the context. He went over Luger exactly once, and that was to launch the angle to turn Luger face. And considering that Windham had been looked upon as Dusty's protege for pretty much his entire NWA career, don't you think it makes sense that they'd feud after Windham turned? It's not like Dusty put himself over in the feud. Did you actually watch any of the shows in those years, or are you just going by what you've heard and read?

    The Rick Steiner bit, even if it's 100% true (and color me skeptical), has literally nothing to do with how Dusty booked himself, so I'm not sure what your point is there.

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  120. Sounds like the title of a Dusty Rhodes WarGames collection:


    "The Fat Beyond".

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  121. Re bob backlund: I think you didn't watch much wwf at the time. They said he was a former champion talked about his long reign and showed clips of him before he debuted. Then he played a straight man clean white meat baby face for a while before turning with the cross face chicken wing I believe on wwf magazine writer lou giant frito (I know that's not his last name).

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  122. Because wwf at the time was more kid friendly and cartoony

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  123. Ronnie Garvin is another. Color me fucking shocked when I found out the guy feuding with Dino Bravo was NWA CHAMPION not two years earlier LOL.

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  124. top rope dropkicks, mind you.

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  125. Well, not that huge a deal. He was just champ because they wanted someone to beat Flair and then have Flair win the belt back at Starrcade. Even Dusty didn't want to look so weak so they picked Garvin who basically a mid-card guy to do it. Then every heel refused to lay down for an obvious lame duck champion so they made up the story of Garvin doing a "sabattical" to train for the rematch, basically telegraphing the result way off.

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  126. But the DVDVR leagues LOVE to use yahoo for some reason. . .

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  127. Solid troll, great punchline with the Ewok stuff. 7.5/10 because you got me.

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  128. Absolutely not, but it's wholly satisfying.

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  129. guess that begs the question... what constitutes wrestling for you? For me, spectacle and story are two very important aspects of a match...and HIAC 2 had both.

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  130. If I can't get emotionally involved in a match, then its not a good match, in my opinion. So I don't care for WM XX anymore...the emotional connection is all fucked up.

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  131. That just proves my point though: Everyone will disagree. My view on that is this: I assume the day AFTER Wrestlemania, you had to have some thought about how great the match was......the match itself didn't NOT happen because Benoit was overtaken 3 years later by Mental Illness or whatever it was and did what he did. If the match was ***** in 2004, it probably should be now, particularly if no matches have eclipsed it to the point where one must reconsider it.

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  132. True....though in fairness, I tend to view his ratings with far more credibility than Dave Meltzer's

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  133. So things don't change even if you literally cannot watch it anymore? Like you do other things while its on? Not sure I agree with that.

    Certainly not footing for him and get creeped when he does a crossface or headbutt. Not the groove they were going for.

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  134. Truthfully, I have seen that match maybe 10 times, but only one - maybe twice - since 2008. Not easy to watch. It's still a ***** match.

    Think about it: In 1995, They didn't go back and say "O.J. Simpson - you are no longer a Heisman Trophy winner." Its happened already. Same thing with Barry Bonds and his Home Run record (and no, I am ABSOLUTELY NOT suggesting Benoit for any Halls of Fame - though he's already in the Observer HOF).

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  135. I really don't care about OJ or Barry Bonds, nor were we talking about them. I don't even know whk Barry Bonds is. (Yes will Google. ) just saying the match sucks to me now and that's why.

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