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Lightning round

Having seen the previous lightning round for under-rated workers etc, can you find any half-decent matches around this collection of early 90's WWF dross?

Skip
Mantaur (hint: no)
Ahmed Johnson
Yokozuna
Marty Jannetty
The Smokin' Gunns
Adam Bomb (one of my fave wacky characters)
Tatanka
"Barmy" Bob Backlund

​Skip:  Barry Horowitz at Summerslam 95.  

Mantaur:  Fuck no.

Ahmed:  Goldust at King of the Ring 96, and he had a legendary match with a pre-Bradshaw John Hawk in Texas that flirted with ****.

Yokozuna:  Randy Savage's last WWF title shot on RAW.  Great drama.

Marty Jannetty:  Aside from the **** classic with Shawn on RAW?  And the **** tag title switch with the Quebecers in early 94?  And a bunch of other great matches he had?  
​Smokin' Gunns:  They had a bunch of decent matches on RAW.  The tag title match against Kid & Holly was pretty good in particular​.

Adam Bomb:  He had a good one with (surprise surprise) Shawn Michaels in early 95 on Superstars.

Tatanka:  The match against Luger at Summerslam was OK.

Backlund:  His initial heel turn match against Bret was a near-classic **** affair.  

Comments

  1. Eh, that's debatable about him still being alive. Russo went to WCW in 1999 and started having guys doing dangerous stunts. Bret even says he almost killed himself in some goofy car stunt in 2000.

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  2. Did any of Owen's WCW matches make it to TV?

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  3. For purely wrestling reasons, Owen was right to stay in the WWF. The 94 feud with Bret made him. Cant imagine anything in WCW getting him that over.


    Also, Owen was as over as a heel as anyone in 98/99. I was at a Raw in April 1999 (the night Rocky turned face) and Owen got the most heel heat by far. If it wasn't for Austin refusing to work with him post-97, he would have got a main event program.


    Think it's pretty safe to say that Owen would have got a World Title run in the early 2000s. But now i'm just sad again.

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  4. As long as the match was cut short, Yoko could put on a great match in terms of heat. His matches with Duggan, Bret & Crush in 1993 all had great heat if they weren't star-rating classics.


    It only got stupid when they made him go long, like both big matches with Luger that were awful (went 15 & 18 minutes respectively). But you kept Yoko in like a 7-10 minute match, and it could be good.

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  5. You forgot to include Jericho, Kidman and a motivated Raven in that group, Scott.

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  6. Are we talking strictly Skip, or Candido in general? Because Candido had a ton of great matches. Some of his best were in SMW, including a falls-count-anywhere against Cactus Jack and a ladder match with Tracy Smothers. The ladder match is very different from WM10 (it was held around the same time) but almost as good. Seriously. Ladder match bumps meet southern-fried wrasslin'. Not that familiar with his ECW work but there was doubtless good stuff there, too.

    Mantaur had a singles match with Bret on Action Zone. Haven't seen it since it aired but I'd be stunned if there was a better match than that, since I'm pretty sure he never wrestled HBK.

    Yokozuna had some awesome cage matches with Bret. I like the MSG one on handheld the best.

    Marty was one of the 3 best workers in the WWF in '93, along with Bret and Doink. No, I watched almost the whole year recently: Shawn Michaels is not in the conversation. Anyway, Jannetty had two really good matches with Shawn on Raw (where he was the better worker in both of them), the 2/3 falls Doink match, and he even dragged Mr. Hughes to a respectable contest on Challenge.

    I agree on the Gunns. Not many classics but a lot of perfectly solid bouts. I think the BodyDonnas match at the '96 Rumble is underrated.

    Tatanka vs. Michaels at WM9 is pretty good until the horrid finish.

    Backlund had two great matches with Bret (both the heel turn match and the title win). Under the radar: Owen/Backlund vs. Bret/Davey Boy from Action Zone, which in my view is every bit as good as the other more famous Action Zone tag from that timeframe.

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  7. Yes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixg6oAeiLaU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Gy5pCRlTc



    This would be a cool thing for the WWE Network - just completely random matches before guys became stars. Would be a fun 30-minute show. But that would appeal to wrestling fans. Thank God YouTube exists.

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  8. Can someone remind me why Owen didn't quit wwe out of anger for how vince screwed his brother at Montreal?

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  9. The Duggan knockdown challenge is a GREAT angle, and Yokozuna is great during the actual match portion, too. Great teasing and build-up to the big fall. And Duggan even at his most hopeless always knew how to sell a beating.

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  10. It's not really debatable. No one died in a WCW ring.

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  11. Because he wouldn't have been able to work anywhere for a long, long time due to his contract. If I recall, Bret said Owen wanted to and he talked Owen out of it for that reason.

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  12. Yeah, but the Hart family has the reverse luck of the Irish.

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  13. AverageJoeEverymanOctober 2, 2014 at 9:43 PM

    Just because Renegade had no gumption.

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  14. I wonder what role he would've played in the NWO angle or in a horseman feud.

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  15. You know it's a good angle when people are jumping up & down!


    More awesome stuff that should be on the Network: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7yhI1aYjfw

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  16. But didn't rude, anvil, and Davey boy Smith quit wwe and appear on wcw the next show?

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  17. The best shot is of the kids in the front row, screaming and pleading for Duggan to turn around. Great production work there.

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  18. Agree that Owen definitely would have gotten the title at some point in the early 2000s, following the trend of giving the good workers (Benoit, Guerrero) and/or loyal company guys (JBL, Mark Henry) getting title runs. Owen met both of these criteria.

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  19. Why isn't Superstars on the Network? Or at least, select awesome episodes?

    Anyway, here's Bret/Backlund and it is AWESOME. I say easy ****

    Part 1: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6bgk0_bret-hart-vs-bob-backlund-wwf-super_news

    Part 2: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6bgo8_bret-hart-vs-bob-backlund-wwf-super_news

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  20. Yeah, Jannetty had plenty of good matches. He is out of place on this list. I never thought much of Candido but he had his moments

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  21. I watched that as a kid and it was an amazing angle. Duggan knows how to work a crowd

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  22. Rude and Anvil were on per show deals. Davey Boy had to pay Vince to get out of his deal

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  23. Geez. Who could ever find a good Marty Jannetty match. Please. And Backlund? Come on! Even if you mean older Backlund everyone knows the Bret match is great. I have to imagine that this was just written by a younger fan. Sad stuff really. People need to grow up and not throw stones when they live in glass houses.

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  24. For the Smoking Gunns ... the six men from Summerslam 93 with them and Tatanka against Bam Bam and The Headshrinkers was outstanding.

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  25. Great well thought out responses. Really good stuff.

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  26. Alright Cornette, the "Russo killed Owen" schtick is getting old. I'm no Russo fan, but... Stop.

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  27. Still begs the question as to why Owen didn't pay Vince to get out of his deal as well, especially considering he had more money at that point than Davey Boy.

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  28. From his use of the word barmy I wager the writer is from the British Isles. I doubt he got to see the young Bob put on some classics and flat out carry the garbage dump known as WWWF heels. Still odd to see Marty on the list, that's for true.

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  29. Lightning round!!!!! Did these guys ever have a good match:
    Shawn Michaels
    Ted Dibiase
    The Killer Bees
    Bret Hart
    Owen Hart
    The Smoking Gunns
    Doing (hint:wrestling clown!!!)
    Dan Spivey
    Steve Lombardi
    Vader
    Bam Bam Bigelow
    The Brain Busters
    Terry Taylor
    Did Vicious
    Bret Hart
    Owen Hart
    Will Sasso
    Goldberg
    Sting
    The Dynamic Dudes
    Dean Douglas
    Shane Douglas
    Iceman "King" Parsons
    The Midnight Express
    The Fabulous Ones (hint:who?)
    Bret Hart
    Owen Hart
    Harvey Wippleman
    George Steele
    Kamala
    Shawn Michaels
    Virgil
    The Bashams
    Jamie Noble
    Adam Cole
    Marty Jannetty
    Bret Hart
    Owen Hart
    Randy Savage
    Ted Arcadi
    Bad News Allen
    Billy Jake Haynes
    Terry Funk
    Ric Flair
    Mike Rotunda
    Undertaker
    Red Rooster
    Billy Corrigan
    Bret Hart
    Owen Hart
    Hercules Hernandez
    Pedro Martinez
    Bruiser Brody
    Adam Cole
    Sting
    Vader
    Bret Hart
    Dino Bravo
    Earthquake
    Pedro Morales
    Superstar Billy Graham
    Beef Wellington
    Owen Hart
    Blue Blazer
    Murakami
    Kurosawa
    The Great Mura
    Bret Hart
    Barry Windham
    Arn Anderson
    Kamala
    Killer Khan
    Ke$ha
    Abraham Lincoln
    Baberaham Lincoln
    Funaki
    Steve Austin
    Austin Idol
    Fritz Von Erich
    Bret Hart

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  30. Because Vince was willing to let Davey pay but not Owen. Or at least it would be some absurd amount. Someone probably knows the full story better than I do but he made sure Owen stayed

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  31. Yeah, in the dying days of the GWF, Ahmed (then "Moadib") was considered one of the company's saving graces. I remember Paul Herzog and others who reported from the Sportatorium having a high opinion of JBL too. P.S. have you read James Beard's book?

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  32. Don't forget Jannetty's match against Doink on Raw in 1994.

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  33. There's also a Skip vs. Jannetty match on Raw in 1995 that's pretty good.

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  34. Fritz had classics against proper parenting, he was the Hogan to its Savage in that he never put it over.
    Abe Lincoln took the most hardcore spot of all time in his match with John Wilkes Booth. And it was outside a ring, so under Jesse Ventura's interpretation of Tony Schiavone's understanding of the rules, carrying a gun was perfectly legal.
    Brian Blair's butt would have had a **** classic with the Iron Sheik's (censored by me for your protection) if not for God, Jesus, and Mr. Kennedy McMahon.
    The Fabulous Ones refused to put over heterosexuality when they made those music videos in Memphis.
    Shawn Michaels vs. his smile: MOTY '97, easy.
    Kamala vs. the druggies and homos and racists in the WWE. And Dawn Marie.
    Did Vicious vs. Don't Vicious = better brother vs. brother than the 4/10 Bret vs. Owen WMX match.

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  35. Had Ahmed not been injury prone, he is a legit world title choice for 13.

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  36. I wonder if it's the issue with someone owning the Superstars name????

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  37. Marty was never a better worker than Shawn. In any period.

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  38. Fantastic. Couldn't agree more about Shawn michaels vs his smile in 97

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  39. Holy shit was that match good. The 2 out of 3 falls one?

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  40. Uh, yeah. They were obviously grooming him for the spot before he got hurt, they were even teasing Shawn vs Ahmed for the title at that point.

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  41. Yeah, that's the one. Great stuff.

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  42. How about...
    The Yeti
    PN News
    Shockmaster
    Red Tyler
    Evad Sullivan
    Phantasio
    Booty Man
    Disciple
    Zodiac
    Outhouse Jack
    Bushwhackers

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  43. That was tremendous.

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  44. So was this.

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  45. Except '93. Shawn still didn't know how to put a match together (one could argue that he never learned). Marty did.

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  46. He would have never been in the world title hunt in wcw.

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  47. Before he got hurt when? You've got to clarify with him! That's like saying "When Shawn vacated the title" WHICH TITLE!

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  48. How could one argue that? Does it require a stupid One?

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  49. Yeah, one could argue that, but that person better be in a padded room arguing with a wall because that's where that person belongs.

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  50. I don't know what that means. I figured it out by watching the matches.

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  51. As long as his hair was cut short, Yoko could have a good match.

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  52. Shawn was all about "look at me!" bumps, and other than using the superkick as a cutoff move, his offense and work on top was pretty bad. Jannetty was better on offense than Shawn and a terrific underneath worker, as you would expect. He didn't have Shawn's star power or his drive, but in 1993 he was a superior worker.

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  53. I guess Shawn just happened to be in many well crafted matches without ever having any input into them.

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  54. Yeah, the same affliction kept it off the WWE Legacy online version of 24/7, as they used Wrestling Challenge instead. They can't legally use anything until the name changes to WWF Superstars in the early 90s.

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  55. In '93? The well-crafted matches all involved Jannetty.

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  56. Ooo, throwing down the gauntlet on Shawn. Definitely 93 was a weak year for him, as he looked really pudgy and bloated from the steroids that he definitely didn't take when he failed that test. It was really the ladder match in 94 where he became the elite worker.

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  57. You said you could argue that Shawn NEVER learned how to put a match together.

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  58. You could. I find Shawn to be pretty vastly overrated in most aspects. My favorite Shawn match is the bout with Mankind, and I attribute more of that to Foley than to Shawn. My ambivalence toward his look-at-me bumping never really went away.


    I'll make no secret that Boyhood Dream Shawn, DX Shawn, and Praise Jebus Shawn are three of my least favorite characters in the history of wrestling. I'm not always capable of looking at him objectively, though I can generally acknowledge his best performances.

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  59. Nah. No thanks.

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  60. As I said below, I have little love and almost no sentimentality for Shawn, though the ladder matches are fantastic. He was a great gimmick match worker and capable of great matches BUT I felt his best matches were ones where his opponent reigned in his worst tendencies. His character work is intolerable to me. I have never hated a babyface more than I did Boyhood Dream Psychosexual McMahon Crush Michaels.

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  61. So you don't like facts or...?

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  62. Yeah, this is silly. Ahmed was touted as the second coming of Nikita Koloff but with more agility and...well..."urban" appeal. That could have been pretty big for the WWF, a company that still hasn't really figured out how to properly use black guys (aside from Mark Henry).

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  63. I think people forget how over he was because his peak was so short. Dude was the number one contender when he got hurt. He was basically Goldberg. And it them 15 years or so to get Henry right so I wouldn't give them too much credit.

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  64. Oh believe me, I have no intentions of doing that. I give credit to Henry for getting over and turning into a good worker by sheer force of will (and maintaining focus on his work and not on playing politics or making waves).

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  65. Mysterio, Juvi, Saturn....

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  66. Any chance WCW probably would have just treated Owen like a jobber just to prove that Harts couldn't cut it in WCW? Or if they did use him in that 1991 era, he certainly would've been masked in some terrible gimmick, they never would have referred to him as Bret Hart's brother.

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  67. WCW also had a track record of having people propel from the ceiling on an weekly basis, with no accidents at all. Except for when the Sting dummy fell.

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  68. Didn't Bret say in his book that he advised Owen to stay? He knew Owen would be wasted in WCW, and at least in WWF, where he was well liked and respected by all, he'd have a much better career. DBS and Anvil were basically done and might as well just get a pay day from Eric. Of course, WWF then completely wasted Owen from his return all the way to the end.

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  69. For the brief period that he did compete in WCW, he did go by his real name of Owen Hart. I'm not sure if they ever referenced his brother though.

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  70. it's pretty likely he would considered to small. and later, during the big boom, not enough of a "draw". so pretty much the same reasons Chris Benoit never really broke out in WCW.

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  71. the WCW mid/undercard was so awesome at one point.

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  72. early nineties WCW would have never done that, the had the tendency to do quite the opposite (that's why the Bulldog got his first main event run not in the WWF).

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  73. and it's not even like they don't know about the appeal of something like this, there were two "Before They Were Superstars" dvds that came out in the early 2000s.

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  74. Bulldog was a big name then though, who’d just headlined
    Summerslam 92. WCW then mistakenly thought that he could draw as a headliner in
    the US. Owen was literally nobody at that point.

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  75. Do we know why Owen didn't stick in WCW in the early 90s? I remember being wowed by his first match on Saturday Night or whatever it was. He won with a moonsault, I think.

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  76. They might have if Owen stuck around long enough for the Monday Night Wars. I can actually hear Bischoff around early '96 say something like "Owen is on his way to be a world title contender while his older brother in the other promotion, who USED to be the best there is, is now the best at going home because he's a sore loser" (in reference to him taking time off after Wrestlemania 12)

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  77. Or maybe he just liked Owen? Or Owen didn't really want to leave? Not everything in the world is done specifically to fuck with Bret Hart.

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  78. How do we KNOW he'd still be alive? What if Sting fell from the rafters onto Owen, and Sting survived because Owen broke his fall? That'd still kill him I bet.

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  79. How much more awesome would the Radicalz have been if they were Benoit/Eddie/Malenko/Owen? Perry Saturn always seemed really out of place to me. I guess you needed a power wrestler to even out the high flying and technical aspects of Benoit/Eddie/Malenko, but Benoit could do power wrestling too. Saturn always seemed like the kid who who nobody likes but they bring along because they feel sorry for him... then as soon as he's not around, they bust on him behind his back. "What's up with that crooked eye? And have you seen those stupid tattoos? I've got it, let's dare him to make out with a mop! I bet he'd do it!"

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  80. It didn't sound like Owen really wanted to leave or go through the hassle of getting out of his contract. He was eyeing retirement at the end of his deal, he probably just wanted to stay where he was comfortable and wrap up his career.

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  81. Yes, but Vince would have sent Russo to WCW to kill Owen just to spite Bret I'm sure.

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  82. Aye, I'm sure he didn't need too much convincing.


    Sigh.


    Fucking tragic.

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  83. Everyone liked Owen, from all accounts.

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  84. Well, if I were a wrestler and somebody disrespected my brother like Vince did, I wouldn't want to work there anymore...but that's just me. Different cultures, I guess and I shouldn't pass judgment on someone who died due to an undeserved accident.

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  85. Kinda harsh on Saturn. He had some good matches in WCW for a while and had some credibility when he feuded with Raven and even Jericho, which did lead to a stupid cross-dressing gimmick for him. He was a victim of bad gimmicks forced upon him more than anything. He was a solid worker when given the chance.

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  86. Yeah, most of that was me just ragging on the guy for comedic effect. I did enjoy his work in WCW, even the cross dressing gimmick for reasons which are as unclear to me now as they were then. I thought a better use for him would be maybe resuming his tag team with Raven, that match at Spring Stampede '99 between them and Benoit/Malenko is one of my favorites ever. When Raven got to his battle kilt phase they BOTH could've worn dresses. My main point is that standing next to the other three WCW defectors, Saturn stood out like a sore thumb.

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  87. He did stick out from them but I remember being hopeful at the time that he'd be pushed to their level...but unfortunately for him, it didn't turn out that great. He was better off there than having stayed in the sinking ship that was WCW though.

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