At least he's keeping it confined to one thread, as opposed to posting the same douchey bullshit every fucking day.
Barbarian, Meng and Nick Patrick are all awesome. The Public Enemy and Disco Inferno are all the drizzling shits.
Hogan-hate aside, Scott: who would you have wanted to go over in that tag match? (Assuming, let's say, that Hogan didn't have creative control.)
They also drew really good crowds and a lot of money. Their issues were Jim Crockett not understanding how to spend responsibly and Ted Turner putting idiots in charge. A WCW that watched its finances would still be in business.
40 minute elimination tag match with no Pat Patterson? Fuck them shits.
They'd all just wind up pinning Ric Flair.
Who gives a shit taht Punk was unhappy, he absolutely was a megastar that was made by the Cena feud/match. No? CM Punk was a midcarder after MITB 2011?And Daniel Bryan also went from popular midcarder to main eventer before and after the John cena match. Was beating cena the ONLY factor? of course not, no one thing ever is. But it was absolutely huge. Cena put Bryan over bigtime. he went from a tag team and midcard guy to someone getting over on the biggest star on the roster. No?You're really reaching with the whole "CM Punk was unhappy" stuff. That doesn't matter.Cena put Punk over huge. he put Bryan over huge. Both guys were tremendously helped by the John cena programs.I'm not saying John cena booking is perfect by any means (see Bray Wyatt), but those are two legitimate examples of guys whose careers benefited HUGE from a Cena program.
I'm sure Scott sees it differently, but I'd have a schmozz.
Yeah, a program for TV sounds about right.
I really don't understand what you're getting at Bayless. As opposed to a program for what, radio? Novelization? They had a professional wrestling program that culminated in a PPV match. What are you even opposing here?
Damnit I miss Dusty on commentary
These reviews continue to be one of my favorites here. One note...I believe Enos was Blake Beverly if I'm not mistaken.
I haven't seen a lot beyond the really well-done Road to Wrestlemania earlier this year.
Considering Hogan headlined Starrcade '94 against Brutus Beefcake, I'm fine with him skipping Starrcade '95. I don't know how a Hogan/John Tenta match would have done in the main event.
Fashioning them into a bikini top for Nikki.
He DID invent the Humpty Dance, after all. Just kidding it was Sam Houston.
Finally, my chance to do the Hump!Do me, baby!
There is more bleeding on the Detroit pitching staff than there is in this match.
It was just a few weeks build for a PPV match. Not a big feud or anything.
But WCW's world champion at the time was Macho Man, and he wreslted twice at Starcade (part of the WCW vs NJPW series, and defending his title against Flair)
It is somewhat splitting hairs, but I think there is a difference between a multi-month, multi-match [insert term here] between Cena and Wyatt (even discounting that one of the matches was at Wrestlemania) and Henry getting one PPV title shot against Cena after the "retire" promo. I'd consider the former a "feud" with the latter a "program" but don't know what the "official" distinctions are.Bryan "feuded" with Orton; Big Show had a title match against Orton.The win over Cena seemed/was big but was immediately overshadowed by HHH/Orton/the Authority and was relatively forgotten.The argument seems to be that working with Cena isn't a kiss of death (or of midcard purgatory) because of Bryan (and Punk). To my mind, Team Hell No got Bryan over while the victory over Cena was the finishing touch on the "weak link" story that had been developing since Team Hell No/Taker/Orton were battling the Shield. The win over Cena did its limited job and thus undermines the position that working with Cena will always hurt his opponent, but it certainly does not support that working with Cena will always help the opponent.
It was a month long program that led up to the main event of Summerslam. They didn't turn anyone heel and make it a hate-based feud, but in terms of Daniel Bryan's career it was a huge deal. It was the most high profile WWE feud or program or "BoD Dictionary -approved thingamabob" that Daniel Bryan had ever been involved in, and it legitimized him in a huge way.
Bryan got over huge after SummerSlam, not during the feud with Cena. The chase of the belt with the Authority got him over. The stuff with Cena certainly did not hurt him but it didn't help out looking back
I don't think anyone here is making the argument that "working with Cena will always help the opponent." Or at least I'm definitely not. But I think it's laughable to— in the name of saying that Johh Cena buries EVERYONE— disregard the fact that matches and feuds (or programs or flimflams or WHATEVER, none of these terms are official) with John cena majorly put over Punk and Bryan. Those things did in fact happen, is what I'm saying. The pipe bomb was awesome. So was the Yes'ing on the Raw after Mania 28 and Team hell No. All of that is important. But getting over on John Cena was also fucking huge and legitimized Punk and Bryan in major ways.
Starrcade had been a dog of a show since the 80s ended for the most part so I get the sentiment to want to make Superbrawl the big show. It hadn't really been thought of yet as far as I know but a Fatal 4 Way with Luger Sting Hogan and Macho would've been great.
If he had any brains, he would install Webroot by now.
Fair enough (and I hadn't seen your post that included "thingamabob" when I posted).And I didn't mean to get you and Bayless in a back and forth argument about the definition of a "feud."
I just don't see how you could argue that cleanly beating the most protected big star of the decade wasn't a huge deal for Daniel Bryan. Bryan was a goddamn midcarder going into that match. Just being positioned against Cena--- and then getting over on him in promos— is huge. It tells the fans "OK, this guy might be a big deal." And then when Bryan actually WINS the match that all his fans wanted him to win? That's also huge. Bryan fans now know he's at that level. Mainstream fans get that even more. It's a big deal.It's not a "Ah it didn't hurt him or didn't help him." It definitely helps him bigtime. Without the Cena feud there is no Bryan/Authority program because Bryan's not a #1 level babyface without that Cena match.
We're not having an argument, we're having a "comment thread program."
Why did TNA stop being this awesome?
Only if the various mergers involving Turner never happened. WCW could have been the height of NWO level hot, and Kellner still pulls the plug. . .
Yep. - which irked the mark I was in 95 - I didn't get the internet until. 96.
... but a WCW not in the shitter both financially and creatively can get another TV deal.Yes, WCW was THAT damaged by the end, that nobody would even take a chance on them.
I loved the concept -- it was like a redneck version of The Big Event and the first Wrestlefest.
Because Orton cashed in then in started the program against the Authority. The chase started after that. That was the draw, not a 30 second title reign after beating Cena
You have to think USA would have taken them in a heart beat.
I'm sorry. That is incorrect.
I'm sorry. That too is incorrect.
Patterson isn't with the company anymore? You figure they could dust him off one time for old times sake.
I just don't understand why you're refusing to look at these as separate things.Yes, the Orton cash-in led to the Authority feud, and EVENTUALLY that led to Mania 30. And yes (YES!) it was all part of Daniel Bryan becoming a huge star.But so was having a program (even if just 4 weeks--- why do you need it to be longer?) with the biggest and most protected (and to a large segment of the audience the most HATED) star in the promotion. That was a huge deal. And then beating that megastar in the main event of Summerslam was also a huge deal. The length of that title reign was shitty booking for sure, but it doesn't matter.He feuded with and beat John Cena. Saying that wasn't a huge deal for 2013 Daniel Bryan is just plain ridiculous. AT Wrestlemania that year he was in a midcard tag match with Dolph, Kane, and Big E. Oppossing and beating John Cena is the biggest thing Daniel Bryan had ever done in WWE up to that point and it's not even close.If anything fans cared about the Bryan/Authority stuff because he had alreday beaten John cena and proven himself to be a main eventer, and then it was taken from him. They wouldn't have cared if HHH was fucking with a midcarder.
Nothing kills a southern crowd like demphasizing Starrcade.
2) ... sorry about that
I am pretty sure this has something to do with the company line of not having too dominant heels anymore in general.(with the execeptions being few and between, like Rusev. and even he could have been booked a lot stronger. just compare his portrayal to those of other "monsters" in the past. we just had that talk about Yokozuna - he hardly "lost" any segments until he was paired with the absolute top stars. sure a guy like Duggan threw him over, but he still got the "final laugh" in that segment).
I'm far from a "WWE does everything right!" or "Superface John Cena is best for business!" type of poster, but good GOD. The Cena-hate is so bad around here that people are actually arguing that Punk beating Cena in 2011 and Bryan beating Cena in 2013 were meaningless events, that didn't put Punk and Bryan way over? Those are actually disputable now?
WE HAVE A WINNER!
that's a bold assumption Yeah Kellner hated wrestling but he loved being succesful (he built Fox and WB). And everyone answers to someone in a corporation like AOL-TW. It's also a bold assumption to assume Kellner wouldn't have a bunch of folks, including shareholders questioning why he would be canceling a show averaging a five rating and raking in cash.
I'd rather like one of those insane Eugene promos for once.
The ironic thing is that WCW spent the 90s tearing Down Starcade as the WM of WCW (even pre-Bischoff) yet he turned around and built it up in 97 as just that with Sting/Hogan. If Bischoff really wanted Hogan and thought it would generate revenue to have him on Starcade 95, he would have offered him some money for extra dates. It's what they did for a number of wrestlers who had contracts for 140 days or 127 days or whatever. They tossed them a bit more to add more dates. But at this point Hogan wasn't bringing in enough extra buys to offset the cost of him adding extra dates, so why bother?
absolutely. Scott once wrote that WrestleMania X could be interpreted as Vince McMahons way to say "I'm sorry I didn't believe in your sooner" to Bret Hart. I think this pretty much what happened at WrestleMania 30 as well.(and, in a strange coincendence, you could argue that WrestleMania XX had a similar dynamic as well)
...except AJ without them AMIRITE?
"A tag match with the Megapowers against Lex & Sting? Who would want to see THAT?" Oh shut up please, it did not happen so accept it, and I'll bet you WCW would have went out out of business anyway if it did happen anyway
I knew Darrell has NO CHANCE against Konnan!-Dave Hester #StorageWars
to her credit, we don't know what kind of person Brie is in private!
USA (allegedly) rejected ECW because they weren't #1. A WCW still going toe-to-toe with WWF would have been more attractive, I'd have to think.
Rhino has always been so stubby. Rough stuff.
This. WCW really should still be around based on all of the advantages it had: tons of money, an owner that owned the stations it was on, and a deep roster that appealed to different fans. Sure WCW was rarely better than WWF (I thought it was, but admit to being in the minority) over the years, but it SHOULD have been with those advantages. At the least it should still be in operation.
Jobbing out the Horsemen left, right, and center doesn't help, either.(Not here, later on.)
WrestleMania 28 didn't get you "emotionally invested"?!
They could have had him face Inoki, only this time don't accidentally KO him.
I feel that him being jobbed out is far less of flushing "everything the crowd loves about Ambrose down the toilet" compared to the change of character with guys like Roman Reigns (I guess what I am trying to say is: Ambrose being turned into "generic 2014 WWE babyface" seems much more "threatening" to me).
Not to mention making WWF cast-offs like Beefcake, Nastys, Tenta, Duggan into the main players in the promotion. It's one for an audience to watch their childhood heroes relive past glory, it's another for that audience to watch someone else's childhood heroes relive past glory.
... soon to be a cardboard box in Dixie Carter's closet.
Cena is probably my favorite wrestler in the company right now. Has been for awhile. The guy is consistently good no matter who his opponents are.
Even at their shittiest Nitro was still had the best ratings of any show on the Turner networks. Had they not been hemorrhaging money they would have been kept on TV, though probably moved to TBS.
Nobody thinks it would've saved the company but it would've kicked ass.
That would've been cool but when was the first fatal four way match? I don't think they were doing those in 95.
"Sure WCW was rarely better than WWF (I thought it was, but admit to being in the minority) over the years, but it SHOULD have been with those advantages."There will always be 1996.....
Very few people to my knowledge blame Cena himself, just the shittastic booking going on with him. They just don't want him to break away from that corny character in the slightest, which makes him boring.
nah, TBS is very funny. Nitro belongs on TNT; they know drama
The reality is, though, Turner bought the company to serve as product for TBS. Live events were just a revenue stream that no one at Turner or Time Warner cared about. Bischoff really just did what was probably necessary to broaden the appeal of the brand beyond the southern audience. By changing WCW from a wrestling promotion that used TV to advertise its live events, to a TV product for whom live events were an afterthought, WCW was altered fundamentally. You now had a business that could only make money if its TV was good, and it usually wasn't, meaning it likely never would have been profitable were it not for the infusion of cash from Turner and the company going all in with expensive talent & even more expensive live TV. Had the Outsiders & NWO not been a hit, they would likely have cancelled Nitro in 1997 because it was just too damn expensive. In hindsight all the arguing over WCW's booking and all that overlooks the potentially fatal gamble Turner made in buying the company in the first place--and the bigger reality that WCW was already doomed before that with Crockett trying to compete with McMahon. After 1987 or so it was inevitable that WCW would be too expensive to continue to exist.
I doubt most people even remember that Bryan beat Cena, thanks to the Orton cash-in and the whole abeyance horseshit. Also, I don't think people hate Cena, they hate the way he's booked. And rightfully so.
Cena wins LOL!
Yeah I meant in retrospect it would've been a cool idea.
Does anybody else see Ambrose and Reigns being the next generation of Austin and Rock?
Someone that knows Photoshop needs to some sort of "Cena Wins" Mortal Kombat deal.
" Also, I don't think people hate Cena, they hate the way he's booked. And rightfully so." But that's one example of Cena being booked very well and putting someone over huge. Nevertheless the hatred for "John cena" (the character or the booking trope of whatever) is so great that there have to be caveats that try to explain that even when he has put someone over, no he didn't actually put them over and it didn't matter. Come on, guys.
you are aware that just by posting on the internet about wrestling you are part of that mentioned "IWC" (and specifically, by posting on this blog, you are also a "smark").
I don't think we'll ever see a next Austin/Rock.
I could see them being positioned similarly as top-of-the-card main eventers within WWE. And yeah, there's aspects of their characters/looks/personalities that make those solid comparisons.But in terms of becoming giant stars that transcend pro wrestling and create a boom period and eventually become mainstream stars? I mean, it'd be cool, but at this point the money is on...NOPE.
With the uneasy friendship at the time between Sting/Luger and the slight tension between Savage/Hogan over Savage holding the title, I think you'd have some room for a finish that protects everyone. I'd go with Hogan becoming obsessed with his hatred of Luger leading to some kind of miscommunication between he and Savage.
one minor quip: why is there still this assumption that all women cheer Cena - and also: every single male grownup boos him?! that generalization is simply not true.
WWE has an article about what WWE will be like in 5 years: http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwe-in-five-years-predictionsSome examples they used: John Cena as GM, Reigns on a Mania winning streak, Hideo Itami will be Mr. Money in the Bank, NXT will compete with Raw for brand supremacy, there will be a WWE Network Champion, Ambrose will be the longest reigning WWE World Heavyweight Champion of modern times, and Mania will take place in China.These all sound pretty cool. A Network champion is a great idea. Have them defend it on Superstars, Main Event, NXT, and PPVs. NXT vs. WWE is inevitable, right? Ambrose as longest reigning champion? I don't see it. Mania in China? Imagine the size of the crowds there
Three guys and Jeff Hardy. Cute.
Well even there, it was basically 3 ex WWE/ECW guys, and 1 Mankind/Kane ripoff. So they still had the same problem then that they always had.
I miss hearing words like "clubbering" and "plunder"
The Tigers were always my #2 team as a kid but for some reason I just don't like them when it comes playoff time. I think I like them as the lovable losers I remembered them being. Like the Cubs. Being shitty is part of their appeal.
I forgot TNA once had people in the audience. Those were the days.
Doesn't mean it's bad... I don't understand that mentality
Yep, locked for 24 hours...oh, except for when Rhino is let out to appear on the pre-show then somehow locked back in again.
I'm glad you mentioned it, because I really miss that old Monster's Ball conceit about the competitors being locked in a room for 24 hours without food or water to make them EXTRA feral and prone to hardcore outbursts.Of course, the question then is how they don't storm craft services the minute they arrive in the arena, but I have no problem overlooking that question if it's in service of such a wonderfully carny-riffic kayfabe conceit.