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Ultimate 1992 question

Hey Scott,

Friend and I were talking Network and throwback wrestling. We debated what the best North American match of 1992 was: Flair wins the Rumble, War Games, or Bret/Bulldog.

Gun to your head, which do you pick over the others? I went Bret/Bulldog, but barely.

​Wait, your friend literally held a gun to your head to force a decision?  That's fucked up, man.  

And the correct answer is always Wargames.​

Comments

  1. I love wargames as much as the next guy, but Royal Rumble 1992 is one of the easiest ***** ever for me.



    I'd go Rumble > Wargames >>> Bret-Davey

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  2. Biff Kensington IIIOctober 1, 2014 at 7:19 AM

    That's actually one of the harder questions I've seen posed around here. Though honestly, I think Bret-Davey is a smidge overrated in the grand scheme of things, it IS the only pure match out of the trio if you want to go that way. But War Games '92 and the '92 Rumble are... perhaps the two greatest gimmick matches of all time (it feels weird calling them gimmick matches, to be honest). I'm not sure I could pick between them, it would come down to what I'm feeling most that day.

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  3. OK, Scott's wrong, and here's why: Flair winning the Rumble was the only time he won the damn thing, it remained the best Rumble ever for at least a dozen years, it was the first time a heel won the Rumble (I think...), Flair went over an hour (...right?), Bobby Heenan was on commentary, it was for the WWF Title, and Flair delivered one of the greatest promos right afterwards. It was the pinnacle of wrestling greatness.

    And to boot... you can just throw out keywords like 'Flair', 'Royal Rumble' and '1992' and it clicks in every wrestling fan's head.

    War Games was great, but it wasn't THAT.

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  4. MikeyMike, WitnessOctober 1, 2014 at 7:23 AM

    Don't give a shit about Bret-Bulldog.
    Wargames was the best match.
    Flair winning was the coolest moment.

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  5. Biff Kensington IIIOctober 1, 2014 at 7:30 AM

    I can appreciate that answer, but honestly as time moves on, I think the impact of NWA/WCW matches are lessened because the company isn't around anymore. WarGames '92 was a pretty big deal for a long time, as it culminated what might be in hindsight one of the greatest angles in WCW history from a perspective of quality of matches and storylines. I really believe it comes down to what you're in the mood for on a given day, because both matches work so perfectly in their own way.

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  6. MikeyMike, WitnessOctober 1, 2014 at 7:33 AM

    Great angle but it wasn't RIC FLAIR.

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  7. MikeyMike, WitnessOctober 1, 2014 at 7:35 AM

    Has there been a bit of a downward turn for the Bret-Davey match? I've never been all the crazy about it but I'm seeing more and more people on here not being all up in arms about it.

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  8. Wargames is the ultimate example of how a match can tell a story.

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  9. WCW had no respect for their own history even when they were
    alive. Were the words Dangerous Alliance ever mentioned again even after this
    show? I know Heyman left, but still, WCW gave up on caring about any part of it’s
    past once Hogan showed up.

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  10. ...Or a singles match.

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  11. Maybe the bit in Bret’s book where he talks about how Davey
    was utterly shot about 10 minutes in and had to be completely carried hurt it
    somewhat.

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  12. In this company it's merely a good match.

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  13. Yeah, the whole War Games thing has been erased from mainstream wrestling history apparently and that hurts its impact, but... it didn't have Flair, Hogan, Sid, Savage, Piper, Taker... DiBiase is eliminated in the first two minutes! And to tell you the truth, I can't tell you 90% of the reason why that Rumble was great, but for some reason, for over a goddamn hour, it was just magic.

    I don't want to take anything away from the '92 War Games, but that year's Rumble was an absolute spectacle and a new wrestling fan could watch it completely out of context 22 years later and still love it.

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  14. But war games its more obvious to someone who does not understand that. Like a new wrestling fan.

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  15. Royal Rumble 1992 is the ultimate example of how much great commentary can improve an already great match.

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  16. In hindsight, nobody gives a shit about British Bulldog. He's not as legendary as Dynamite and there's not one promo or match, save for that one, that defines his career. So... it's not that the match isn't perfectly crafted by one of the greatest ever, but Bret wound up doing so much to the point of something like that getting diluted.

    Also, let's face it... the finish popped 82,000 people in Wembley... when was the last time anyone outside of England cared about a pack o' Limey scum? The 1800s, that's when.

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  17. GAME SET AND MATCH

    MAH NIGGA

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  18. All wrong. Best pro wrestling moment of 1992:

    "PUT THAT CIGARETTE OUT!"

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  19. Gun to my head, I would say "BRET/BULLDOG WAS NOT A NORTH AMERICAN MATCH!"

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  20. 2 things put War Games off the list for me.


    1- It was extremely predictable that the faces would win (even with the Nikita storyline), while the 2 other matches, I had no idea who would win.


    2- It was the first time a Rumble had the "start to finish" story, so it felt different. War Games was the usual "heels dominate for 2 minutes, faces dominate for 2 minutes, heels dominate for 2 minutes, faces dominated for 2 minutes etc etc etc etc etc.



    I guess I still feel that "You've seen 1 War Games, you've seen them all".

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  21. Oh come on, we all know that England is the 51st state!!!

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  22. Wow. Great Britain is even more complicated than I thought.

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  23. It was always predictable who was winning war games. I can't think of a single war games where the result was ever in doubt.

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  24. This absolutely sums it up perfect. Another home run for Mr. Satan.

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  25. That Flair Runble win is a thing of beauty. I watch it every Runble season. The commentary is the best commentary for a match ever. Just perfect all around.

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  26. Yep, exactly. Maybe it's my lack of blood lust, but I just never really saw the big deal in the match. It's a cool little gimmick, just not an apparent automatic 5 stars every time.

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  27. The British Bulldog has been grossly underrated by revisonist historians. Go back and watch 1996-1997 WWF, and you'll see he is FREQUENTLY one of the MVPs, especially when in conjunction with Owen.


    Is he in the caliber of Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan? No. Is he a good promo? He's about as good as Bret was. But he's had dozens of good-to-great matches, as many as anyone wrestling when he did. He even dragged a good match out of the Warlord!



    The English are terrible for thinking that the whole world revolves around what they think and do, almost as much so as Americans. To be fair, Australia has never had this problem because they're all descended from inbred prisoners and their most significant cultural exports are a pedophile cartoonist and some crap pop singers. So they don't have this ego problem.

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  28. It was even more predictable who would win the coin toss.

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  29. Did Vince Russo win Wargames 2000? Was that
    a thing? In fact, don’t answer, I don’t want to know.

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  30. I would have loved for the faces to win the toss just once. Since the outcome was never in doubt anyway, imagine the party, after 6 months of wanting to see the faces get their revenge, if they could just beat the ever loving hell out of the Dangerous Alliance for nearly 20 minutes straight. The place would go crazy.

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  31. Most over rated gimmick of all time. Every Dusty Rhodes cliche in the book, thrown together in a double-sized package.

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  32. Definitely. He was a perfect "Filler PPV top heel", sort of like Big Show and Kane often are these days. Plus he usually put on much better matches. Great hand.

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  33. Come on, think of all the great Australian wrestlers. You’ve
    got Nathan Jones… and all the other great Australian wrestlers as well.

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  34. If you want to really screw with someone who thinks they understand the whole Britain/UK thing, ask them which bits of it are in Europe and watch them explode.

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  35. Welcome to the team.

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  36. So we all agree that The Beatles never happened? Great!

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  37. Totally how I see him. Need a reliable hand to lose in a big match? Someone who keeps in shape, looks good, does what he's told? Who was better in the 90s than Bulldog for this?


    Not everyone can win 16 world titles. Someone has to be the guy who loses. Bulldog did it with a wink and a smile.

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  38. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfB1VdNWtEU

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  39. And yeah, Bulldog is very under-rated. I think the few times
    when he was perhaps over-pushed (because
    he was never a true MAIN eventer, and his attempts there weren’t successful
    either in WWF or WCW) lead to him getting a bad rap. But he was definitely a
    top second-tier guy. That JR line about “how many times can you repackage the
    Bulldog?” was a dickhead line. How many times did they repackage the genuinely
    shite Bradshaw?

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  40. Dean, I'm just looking at the reasons as to why the SummerSlam '92 match has lost its luster. I have nothing against Davey Boy at all, but man, nobody gives a shit about him any more. It's hard being a Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None, but wrestling needs those kind of guys.

    As for your Australian bashing... uh, yeah! Aussies are descended from English trash. Fortunately I'm descended from European immigrants and I can actually tan nicely in the sun and my food isn't just cabbage, chops and lager.

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  41. And I'm saying people SHOULD give a shit about him and that too many (including Bret) have downplayed his contributions.


    Ah, I've nothing against Australia. Just joining in with your fun.

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  42. Most overrated band ever. Ever wonder why pop music sucks? Ever wonder why they still try to churn out boy bands? Blame those wankers.

    ...Except for Harrison, he was good.

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  43. Massive Q. I can name two Australian wrestlers. Nathan Jones and Massive Q.

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  44. The Fabulous Kangaroos!

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  45. Well, I guess the problem with dying is, unless you were REALLY REALLY important and your death wasn't completely to blame on yourself, you really do become forgotten. If he were alive, he'd at least be a Finlay-like kinda guy and still have a career and WWE would showcase more of his matches. That's just reality.

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  46. That's a DAMN good point about JR, Bulldog and Bradshaw.


    Justin Hawk Bradshaw
    Blackjack Bradshaw
    Tag-Team Journeyman Bradhsaw
    Acoylyte Bradshaw
    APA Bradshaw
    Hardcore Bradshaw
    APA Bradshaw again I think
    JBL


    Whereas Bulldog was in the Bulldogs, a successful singles wrestler, was brought back and shoved into a team with Luger, pushed as a main event heel, then part of the Hart Foundation. Came back as the same guy, briefly face, then heel. Same character the whole way through but sometimes a heel.


    So, J.R., apparently NEVER. You NEVER repackaged the frigging Bulldog.

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  47. They may or may not have sucked, but you can't deny that millions of Americans were going apeshit over them.

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  48. D'oh. I was thinking they were from New Zealand but I was thinking of the Sheepherders / Bushwhackers. Okay, they're notable!

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  49. I've never grasped the whole thing myself.

    I mean... when you're a kid you don't know the difference between the Irish and the Scottish, and then you find out that the Welsh also exist.

    (Ed's note: I did find out the difference between the Scottish and the Irish: the Irish are a pack of drunkards, but the Scottish drink a lot.)

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  50. Yeah. I just have to at least be vocal about it, as a fan of his. Likewise with Rick Rude and seemingly all the other guys I really enjoyed watching who had the temerity to die from something other than natural causes.

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  51. The title of this thread gives us a subliminal clue to the real answer. Savage vs ULTIMATE warrior!

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  52. Well......I don't recall a Dusty finish in a Wargames.......

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  53. To put it in other terms... The Irish like to fight, but the Scottish are inherently violent. You can only understand it once you've experienced it.

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  54. The Rutles >> The Beatles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePaHG6g7uFw

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  55. I watched the Batista movie 'House Of The Rising Sun' on Netflix the other night. It's absolutely terrible (when the best actor in a movie is Dominic Purcell from Prison Break, you've got a problem), but quite unintentionally hilarious (particularly the bits with Danny Trejo).


    Batista is actually NOT BAD in it. He delivers his lines sometimes too quickly and quietly, but given that he has to carry most of his piece of shit, he does pretty okay for himself.

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  56. Am I the only one who doesn't give a fuck whether or not it was the "plan all along"? What we actually got ended up working perfectly, and the final result is what's important to me. It's like a fan (as opposed to a worker) shitting on Steamboat-Savage because "it was all planned out." Who cares?? (Granting that LOOKING planned out can really destroy a match, but I don't see how you can say that about WM3--there's no way to know it was pre-planned without being told.)

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  57. The most infuriating rehashed conversation on the wrestling Interwebs is the debate over Bobby Heenan's "BUT WHOSE SIDE IS HE ON?" call. It turned up yet AGAIN in the latest Nitro rant, for no particular reason. No one is changing anybody's mind on it, and it was a completely innocuous call regardless of your opinion of it--would WCW have been on top for longer if he hadn't said it or something?


    That, and "Who's on the Mt. Rushmore of...?" anything. Which is arguably worse because it immediately spawns 900 imitation discussions for every promotion, sports team, series, or fiction genre in existence.

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  58. It's hard to talk when I'm drooling this much.

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  59. Eh, he might be an all right dude but that doesn't mean I want to see him when I watch wrestling.

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  60. Beat me to it.

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  61. I don't care if it was the plan either. They realized the error of their ways, and the moment when Daniel defied Bray in the cage was absolutely monumentally epic. The notoriously quiet Providence crowd went completely apeshit just from Daniel breaking out of Sister Abigail, and hearing the buzz get louder as Bray yells "Come on, big man! Come on, big man!" before Bryan attacks him, and then the EXPLOSION once he rips off the Wyatt gear and cleans house, it's fantastic. One of my favorite moments of the year. I'm glad they put him with the Wyatt family because that moment got him even more over.

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  62. Well it doesn’t matter in terms of television viewing, but
    in the context of “do these people know what they’re doing/can we have any
    faith in them going forward”, it is kinda important. To stay a fan of something
    when things are bad, you’ve got to have some faith that things will get better,
    and knowing that almost everything good in the past year was actually an
    accident has a negative effect on that.

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  63. Stephanie is a heel, and her hijacking that chant is still a part of the ongoing storyline that will resume when Bryan comes back. Stephanie hijacking the chant is supposed to make you sick. Big Show, however, was supposed to be taking the anti-Authority flame from Bryan, I guess, and it was really annoying.


    I had the displeasure of attending Survivor Series 2013 in Boston. The opening match, with Reigns eliminating 4 guys in a row to be the sole survivor of his team, was fantastic. The Punk & Bryan vs. Wyatt Family match was decent. The main event, though, was awful. The best part of the main event, honestly, was the stuff that happened after the show went off the air, with Vince coming out acting like he was going to fight Cena, only to take off his suit jacket and do the "ole!" chant with the crowd.

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  64. We’ll never know if WCW would have survived if he’d called
    that match differently, so we’re just gonna have to assume that it directly led
    to the company’s demise.

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  65. At work.... Must.... not.... click.... link....

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  66. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCW_SuperBrawl_Wrestling

    Fun stuff. Didn't appreciate Rick Rude telling me he was the "Sexiest man alive" everytime I hit his finish. Or the fact that Vader's finish was the exact same as Ron Simmons.

    Made up for by how hilarious the referee sounded counting a submission finisher.

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  67. That video package is phenomenal. I feel like you could show it to someone who hasn't watched wrestling in years and they'll pretty much get the build-up. Gotta say it, I love Daniel Bryan's Monster package.

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  68. I understand what you are saying completely.

    But as a person actually in power behind the scenes I always took it as Steph doing it and HH AND Steph saying look they chant it for anyone. To prove it we'll even have Big Show do it. It isn't Bryan, it's the chant that's over.

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  69. Yeah I'd say the only thing he did wrong was "Not be Daniel Bryan"

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  70. If you consider that it began when he lost the belt at Break Down the year before, Steve Austin's road to regaining his title at Wrestlemania XV is the best and is completely untouchable.

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  71. Agreed. It really wasn't until the Batista Royal Rumble reaction and Punk walking out that WWE seemed to finally acknowledge that they had to run with Bryan for Mania. Everything before that -- including "Daniel Wyatt" clearly indicated that he wasn't in the title picture anymore.

    The idea that fans who were rabid for Bryan would just shift allegiance to Big Show over a chant was ridiculous. The bookers seemed to assume the chant was over, not Bryan, as if Bryan was just Fandango with more facial hair.

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  72. At work... clicked link anyway...

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  73. Brie Bella doing it is even worse.

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  74. August 2013-January 2014 doesn't rank as one of the worst main event storyline periods in WWE history. That, my friend, is a great deal of hyperbole.

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  75. I was really impressed with Orton's promo in that segment too, and he got a lot of heat when he told Bret that he'd have left him lying unconscious in the ring if they'd faced each other at Survivor Series '97.

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  76. Yep, but the fact that he ended up being one of the big players at the end of that segment (kneeing HBK in the face) shows to me that they were still keeping him in mind as a top player (and respecting continuity). I do think that WWE changed their plans to feature Bryan more heavily after the fan backlash, but I don't think they entirely tried to phase him out either.

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  77. According to a guy on reddit who claims to have worked for WWE and still apparently knows something about backstage plans, the original plan for Bryan at WrestleMania was for him to face a heel Sheamus and get his win back from two years ago.

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  78. Eh, WWE might've changed their minds about WrestleMania after fans rejected the original plans, but they still did some great booking once they changed course (from the post-Rumble RAW onwards, I'd say). You can't call that an accident.

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  79. WWE really dropped the ball post Mania. Putting Bryan against Kane was such a horrible idea.


    They should have done another Triple Threat, or upped the ante and had him go against Evolution in a four way. Or, my personal favorite, and a no brainer, since Batista was saying the YES movement was the dumbest thing ever, have him face Bryan in an I Quit match, which ends with Batista chanting YES.

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  80. Batista was not leaving for the summer to promote his Marvel movie by laying down for anyone.

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  81. Except he laid down for the Shield.

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  82. The crowd reaction to DBry at the end of the RAW where he attacked Bray Wyatt in the cage is still one of the most insane things I've ever seen, second only to reactions for guys like Austin and Hogan. THAT is the moment I knew he would be main eventing Wrestlemania.

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  83. In a protected setting. He wasn't losing one-on-one matches where the focus would be entirely on him. He was an afterthought in that entire feud, where the focus could be immediately shifted away from his loss onto something else.

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  84. Gunther the Nasty LoserOctober 1, 2014 at 10:06 AM

    "The crowd turning on the Rumble"

    Happy to have helped

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  85. He also tapped out in the middle of the ring at Wrestlemania.


    Trust me, Disney DID NOT CARE about Batista's wrestling career.

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  86. That Rumble is iconic for the wrong reasons.

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  87. So you're cool with:

    Night of Champions: Bryan wins title, stripped the next night via a half-baked "crooked ref" storyline

    Battleground: Main event ends in no contest when crying Big Show interferes

    Hell in a Cell: Main event ends in a screwjob when Shawn Michaels superkicks Bryan, angle never really pays off

    Survivor Series: Randy Orton faces the Big Show in the main event of the worst-selling Survivor Series ever.

    TLC: Orton faces Cena in an actually good TLC match main event.

    Royal Rumble: Cena and Orton wrestle a boring match that ends in interference, Batista wins the Royal Rumble to massive boos because Bryan wasn't even an entrant.

    Because that is one of the shittiest series of PPV main events in WWE history.

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  88. I actually don't think Big Show was actively trying to steal the YES!. I think he was just using it to show support for Bryan and get some face pops.


    Maybe other people don't think there's a difference, but I do. It's like other people doing U Can't See Me. It's either to mock Cena if used by a heel, or as a face to show support for Cena.

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  89. I think everybody gets that up to a point. But Bryan was SUPER HOT going into Summerslam. For Vince/Creative/whoever to actively deny Bryan, and then claim to be "building" him up was total BS. If they were building him up, Bryan should have gotten the belt back by Survivor Series or never have lost the belt in the first place, and then throwing Bryan in these pointless feuds before turning/faking out Bray.

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  90. At this point, I kind of want him to die.

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  91. I'm at work, and I clicked it. I'm also the admin, but still.

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  92. TNM7 is still one of the greatest games. 20 years later and updates are still being made. Fun text game.

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  93. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:44 AM

    He did a legitimate good job in GOTG (I love the scene after he gets the shit kicked out of him by Ronan) and by all accounts, he put in a lot of effort with acting school and such to solidify himself as a legit actor. No one will confuse him with Daniel Day-Lewis, but like Vin Diesel, he could be a good physical presence with a little depth to his roles

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  94. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:45 AM

    They have to put him in a program with Hunter if he comes back. After Guardians, people will want to cheer for him

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  95. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:46 AM

    It doesn't just work for Bryan, it also fits perfectly with HHH finally going full heel with it

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  96. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:47 AM

    I think Bryan also said that he voiced to Vince et al for other wrestlers like Sheamus and ADR to stop doing it because that was akin to leeching catchphrases

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  97. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:48 AM

    Once HHH stopped playing wish washy heel and went full bore along with Steph, 10/10. Perfect foils and they both got theirs in the end at Mania

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  98. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM

    I never thought Brock/Goldberg would be topped in terms of fascinating big name fan rebellion, but the fans booing the Royal Rumble of all things out of the building in the name of Daniel Bryan is one of the most damnedest things ever in wrestling

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  99. I agree with everything you said except calling the Cena/Orton tlc match "good." That match was dull. As flavorless as cardboard.

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  100. Nah, there's MUCH worse out there.

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  101. That was (obviously) the last PPV me and my buddies ordered, and we weren't even that mad that one of the biggest shows of the year pretty much sucked and was giving us exactly what we didn't want, and you said it best as to why: it was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen on a wrestling show.

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  102. Oh, well, as long as we can trust you.
    I didn't mind Bryan/Kane as the first Daniel Bryan title program, personally. First of all, the match was actually good (not as good as their Raw match several weeks earlier, but still good). Second, it was a nice bit of continuity to put a bow on the Hell No storyline that they did a good job of not beating over our heads after Kane joined the Authority. And third, the time was right to elevate The Shield- even if they'd known at the time they were going to break them up in two months, which they obviously didn't yet- against Evolution.
    It makes me wonder if, after Austin won the title at WM14, if the internet was bitching about Dude Love being his first title program, because I see this in a similar vein. To me, I saw it as Daniel Bryan being so over, he could bring Kane up to his level for a credible title program rather than him needing the most star power possible opposing him for a program. Daniel Bryan *was* the star power. We'll never know if it would've worked long-term- at least to when he would've presumably lost the title to Lesnar at Summerslam- but what we'd seen until his injury, I didn't mind.

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  103. I don't know, considering it was Bryan's first big moment (considering the WHC doesnand Austin's second, I'd say those two are pretty close. In a vacuum, yeah, I agree. I've been watching a lot of fall '98 stuff lately, and holy lord, what an awesome period of time.

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  104. Crikey Mate Down Under AussieOctober 1, 2014 at 11:20 AM

    Nice segue

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  105. Fair enough. It might have been the most interesting main event in the fall of 2013 though, but regardless it would still be the best out of a bunch of awful matches.

    I just don't know how anyone can disagree that Fall 2013 was terrible for the WWE main event scene. They basically were treading water until Cena came back from injury.

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  106. In a macro sense, it was excellent long-term storytelling no matter if it was their original plan or not. But yes, there were some shitty specifics along the way.

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  107. A heel did something you didn't like and antagonized the fans? And got a negative reaction for it? Then she did a damn good job.

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  108. Daniel Bryan's wife keeping him in fans' minds and getting a good reaction for it is....bad?
    I'm starting to think some of you take some of this way too seriously. (Just kidding. I've always thought that.)

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  109. 'Trust me, Disney DID NOT CARE about Batista's wrestling career'

    Neither did anyone else.

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  110. You are my hero.

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  111. Jerry Lawler yelling "IT'S YESTLEMANIA!!!" is what jinxed Bryan's title run.

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  112. Yeah, the match was great, however the antics leading up to it were pretty awful outside of the multiple tombstone spot. Horror movie Kane was terrible and was a constant throwback to the Kane/Cena/Ryder/Eve storyline.


    As for Austin/Love, they didn't even announce Love as Austin's opponent until the week before the PPV, and even then, Dude Love as the corporate sellout was a stroke of genius for the following month up to the rematch. Besides, it's not like Foley himself wasn't a contender to the title in 1996 and 1997 already.

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  113. Yeah, Austin really needed Debra doing beer bashes in the middle of the ring in order to keep him in fan's minds.

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  114. Austin's run leading to WM14 trumps 15 imho.

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  115. Never a fan of the game

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  116. It wasn't great but it was different enough from all the LJN WWF games of that era to stand out. I personally loved the little soundbites. Rick Steiner's "It's not my fault!" Is my favorite.

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  117. Ha he did a little awkward hip thrust as well

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