Sunday, November 16, 2014

Irish Whip question


Hi, Scott

To me the most blatantly fake thing in wrestling is the Irish Whip (well, that and the idea that you can punch a guy in the face with a closed fist ten times and not turn the face into hamburger and your hand into a bloody mess, but that's for another day). The idea that you could throw a guy into the ropes and have him continue to run into them, rebound off, and run back, all at a consistent speed, is one of the sillier aspects of our beloved sport. My question is simple: could wrestling survive without it? Could a match still be convincingly built and "called" without this basic maneuver, and still look like American Professional Wrestling? I'd still make allowances for a wrestler running the ropes to give themselves momentum, but no more whips to the rope or turnbuckle. What say you and the blog?

​For me, it's a necessarily evil that provides a means to an end.  It's the same way that the backdrop is totally bullshit as a meaningful move as well, because why wouldn't you just stop running?  Why would someone be so fucking stupid as to run into Hulk Hogan's out-stretched boot?  Because wrestling, I guess.

Could a match be built without it?  Sure, but it would be boring.  Wrestling is wrestling because it's wrestling, and if you start tinkering with the elements of it that don't make sense, you'd just have MMA.  Which is probably why so many people defected from wrestling to UFC years ago, come to think of it.  ​

72 comments:

  1. “History is written by the victors.”
    ― Winston S. Churchill

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  2. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:20 AM

    The short answer would be: history is written by the winners. The long answer is that you're dealing with a narcissistic, nepotistic opportunist with a significant inferiority complex who must always be portrayed as the protagonist in what he views as a decades-long passion play, or risk looking weak and thus irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

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  3. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:20 AM

    You ninja'd me.

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  4. "Biff. What a character. Always trying to get away with something."

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  5. I'm sure now that you pointed that out Scott, they'll go back and add some talking head stuff about how Rock and Austin was an improved version of Rhodes and Flair and DX went back in time to inspire the Horsemen.

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  6. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:23 AM

    That's about as funny as a screen door on a battleship. Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here, butthead.

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  7. Yeah, take out the Irish Whip and you really just have worked MMA. IMO they need to add MORE of the fun elements to wrestling. That was a big part of what got me hooked, the crazy moves. Not saying it should become Lucha Libre, but I think WWE style punchy kick gets stale.

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  8. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:28 AM

    But how could they tell stories then?

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  9. It's "screen door on a submarine," you dork.

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  10. I really cannot get fully into any of these WWE produced pieces because there is always that obvious slant to them.


    "I was making millions of dollars in WCW but when I went to WWE I found out how a REAL company is run."

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  11. I feel like whipping guys into stuff makes some kind of sense, but when they bounce back at you that it's ridiculous.

    Also I have come to except that all workers are just the worst punchers ever, and that's why one can punch another one in three face ten times before it hurts.

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  12. Without people flooding arenas for years before hand just waiting and hoping THEIR arena would be the one DX chose to ride their tank of destiny up to, the whole wrestling business would have died out in the time of Lincoln.

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  13. WWE Network's new head of Media Production: Joseph Goebbels

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  14. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:39 AM

    Hey, why don't you make like a tree and get out of here!

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  15. Biff Kensington IIINovember 16, 2014 at 8:41 AM

    Seig Heil (in a Cell) is the new catchphrase for the 21st century.

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  16. Isn't it obvious? The opponent is intimidated following hulk's popping up after a devastating finisher is compleletly ignored and knocked loopy after three thunderous right hands. They can't help but rush face-first into hogan's big boot.

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  17. Didn't one of the Regal/Benoit classics have no rope running? Was it the Pullman show match? Either way I like it as a change of pace, but things would get boring in a hurry if that were a hard rule

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  18. I heard somewhere that Johnny Valentine would refuse to run the ropes.


    Why is it Irish, anyway?

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  19. The irish whip is the single most important move in wrestling. I can't imagine the business without it, taking away punches and kicks would probably be easier to adapt to than taking away the whip.

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  20. Pro wrestling without the logic-defying (i.e. fun) stuff but without the legitimacy of UFC? That'd just be like the worked elements of UWFi, RINGS or Pancrase, or PWFG wouldn't it? Or the wXw offshoot Ambition.

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  21. The AWA doc teased a few of Vince's predatory practises back when, like buying out a bunch of Verne's airtime on local stations all over his territory.


    Not to mention the hostile takeover of GCW simply to gain the TBS timeslot even though he already had the USA channel deal. Let alone the insane amount of talent he poached from damn near every promotion in North America.


    The way he cried about Billionaire Ted in 96/97 was absolutely pathetic.

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  22. Speaking of running the ropes, anyone know why Mysterio started rebounding off the bottom rope in his later career? I always thought that looked silly, and I don't remember him doing it in WCW. And why are the ladies generally so bad at it? Watch any random Divas match and you'll see some of the fakest rope running there's ever been.

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  23. Didn't the Owen match between Bret and Benoit have no rope running? I haven't seen it in forever so I could be wrong.

    Today's guys would be completely lost without the irish whip. I swear it's used in every other spot.

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  24. They couldn't call it the Punjabi whip...you know how much bamboo hurts?!

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  25. I wouldn't mind a bit more mat-wrestling but only guys like Bret, Angle and probably Daniel Bryan can make it compelling.

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  26. I'm not a big worked-shoot-style fan, but Maeda's early UWF was basically "pro wrestling without Irish whips" and it worked for what it was, and was certainly objectively successful.

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  27. Danno O'Mahoney, champion of the 1930's, was supposedly the inventor. Though photos show that his "Irish whip" was more like a body scissors/huracanrana takedown. The More You Know...

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  28. Flair said that on one of Austin's more recent podcasts.

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  29. That dx invasion was such a small part of that episode too

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  30. Match without and Irish Whip, but with three other kinds ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-9qZ4Zs6Ys

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  31. It's probably because hitting the ropes can hurt.

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  32. I thought the same exact thing when watching this. There was no reason at all to wedge in "Oh btw at the same time in 1985 the WWE was the greatest thing ever and would stay that way forever." I get that history is written by the winners, but to wedge how wonderful they are and were into every single little thing they produce is getting a little fucking ridiculous, considering the opponents they keep needing to slander are, yknow, DEAD and owned BY them. But god forbid anyone form critical opinions on the product by watching examples of better product on their own network.


    Also, whoever is in charge of changing the clips with blood in them to b&w needs a fucking shot of Valium. It's getting so bad in these shows that they drain the color out of every recap if someone in the crowd has a red shirt on.

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  33. Wrestling without wrestling would be... Wrestling? I guess?

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  34. who said that?

    because if it was one of the workers there might be a certain truth to it. it is no secret that the WWF was at least run "tighter" than WCW (I somehow doubt that EVERYONE who claimed that it was often total chaos at the end of the nineties is lying).

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  35. nitpicking: whips into the turnbuckle would work even if it was "real", although not from the middle of the ring.

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  36. I was about to post the same thing. He writes about in his book.

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  37. History is written by the victors.

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  38. He's like a Toronto Blue Jays fan. Won the World Series twice with the highest payroll in baseball, spent $132 million after taking on Miami's salary dumps, complained about other teams spending money for 20 years in between.

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  39. I love the idea of the "Rivalries" show but my fear it will all be retreads of things we've already seen a billion times. I loved the Rhodes/Flair one but next week it's right back to the same ol' same ol' with HHH v HBK.

    You know the next ones will be:


    Cena v Orton
    Austin v Rock
    Austin v HHH
    Rock v HHH
    Bret v HBK
    WCW v WWF
    Vince McMahon v The US Government

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  40. Yeah well, Biff, you're forgetting one thing.


    WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?!

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  41. "Once we figured out how to use Billy Gunn, the War was over"

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  42. Ones that I would really like to see are:


    R n R Express v The MXP
    Vader v Sting
    Cactus v Funk
    Von Erics v Freebirds
    Raven v Dreamer
    Rude v Warrior
    Savage v Lawler
    Bockwinkle V Gagne
    Piper v Hogan
    Luger v Flair
    Savage v Hogan


    A complete Lock sooner or later is:
    Flair v Sting

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  43. What cracks me up about the Turner, WCW, and Monday Night is Vince was underhanded as fuck back in the 80s when he invaded territories, bought their television stations, and put tons of people out of work.

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  44. CruelConnectionNumber2November 16, 2014 at 12:22 PM

    Before John Cena became WWE Champion and won the Monday Night Wars, pro rasslin' was held in smokey bars and high school gyms. (What fans will be told in 15 years)

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  45. Unless HHH dies within 15 years, I'm pretty sure he'd rewite history to say that the wrestling business was doom and gloom until HHH became champion and changed business for the better.

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  46. Yep. Once anyone got anywhere in the AWA Vince signed them away.

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  47. Hogan vs Savage is tough because its so one sided. Three Hogan title wins, Savage never getting a win

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  48. Pathetic is being kind. He did the same shit on the Rise & Fall of ECW set. When HE took ECW talent, he was giving them an opportunity. When Bischoff took ECW talent, he was "raiding" them and trying to hurt them.

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  49. Victor Rodriguez JrNovember 16, 2014 at 1:10 PM

    especially date rape

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  50. Hold that 10 for Johnny B. BadNovember 16, 2014 at 2:29 PM

    Normal self-congratulations from them aside, that Dusty-Flair thing was a blast. I had it on while making breakfast this morning, and wow. Pure entertainment. I wish they'd do all of these rivalries in 50+% kayfabe, talking more about the feud's history and less about what made a "natural rivalry."

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  51. I suppose your'e right in that respect. But it went for years across two promotions and was always kind of floating around in the back ground.. I can see the interviews with Hogan though...


    "Randy just couldn't overcome the power of the forty septiliion Hulkamaniacs and the largest arms in the world"

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  52. What I find hilarious is Hogan claims that Savage would call him at all hours because he needed to discuss the details of their matches and I'm sure on Hogan's end and he would just go....


    "Sure, we can do all that - but you know the end right? Kick out, big Boot, leg drop, clean right in the middle, and then you get the fuck out of there so I can pose for the Hulkamaniacs because you know that's what they are really here to see"

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  53. "And then DX invaded WCW and put on black face to be the Nation.. and suddenly we were doing big business"!!

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  54. Adam "Colorado" CurryNovember 16, 2014 at 2:53 PM

    Didn't the already do Bret/HBK?

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  55. Adam "Colorado" CurryNovember 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM

    Add Raven/Sandman to that list.

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  56. I get irritated at how it's always said that WCW only had ex-WWF guys as main event talent. I even saw Punk say it on one of those recently. I know that the NWO guys all came from up north and most of them stayed in the main event scene, but what about Sting, Luger, Flair, Giant, DDP and Goldberg? They also make it seem like Luger was made in the WWF which is a joke. He was champion and main eventing with Sting and Flair and then went to work for Vince for like 2 years.

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  57. Adam "Colorado" CurryNovember 16, 2014 at 3:02 PM

    That always pissed me off. It's not like anyone thought of ECW as a threat or anything, they were more like ROH, the Triple-A to the big leagues of WCW/WWF. And hey, maybe if Heyman actually PAID his workers they might have stuck around.


    Not to mention Vince "I stole every guy I could from the AWA just for shits and giggles" McMahon is the last guy that has the right to complain about that kind of thing.

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  58. Adam "Colorado" CurryNovember 16, 2014 at 3:03 PM

    Hall and Nash were in WCW first too.

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  59. I do remember on that "McMahon" DVD, they openly talk about how "Vince screwed everyone" in his expansion with Greg Gagne sharing the famous "I don't negotiate" meeting with Vince just before he snatched up Hogan. So yeah, they do acknowledge how much of a bastard he was with guys on that set remarking the "real" Vince is worse than his on-screen character but still respect the hell out of him.

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  60. Let's not forget, Vince himself summed it up: "Wrestling's a rotten business and you have to be a rotten guy to survive it."

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  61. Yeah, they talk about it with Vince defending himself on "I was expanding, nothing personal." And I liked on that "Rise and Fall of WCW" disc, Vince talks the "Black Saturday" thing and how it was "backstage moves" to unseat him but everyone else states fans just hated his product on TBS.

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  62. Really? Because just re-read that new version of "Death of WCW" and they're totally into how ineptly run that company was from start to finish and blowing opportunities so the fact is, there's some truth to why WWE is the one standing in the end.

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  63. Rhodes / Flair ain't my cup of tea. The matches all come across as Dusty being too focused on getting in all his spots. Contrast this with the Flair / Steamboat matches a few years later where it's all "You go on offense!", "No, YOU go on offense!"

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  64. He probably will regardless...I'm sure by 2018, any history piece that deals with the Attitude Era or the Monday Night War will call HHH winning the championship days after Steph turned on Vince the "turning point in the war," then by 2021, it will again be rewritten so that HHH being awarded the big gold belt will be the point, etc etc

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  65. That for me will be one of the lasting legacies of Vince McMahon -- that he seems to fully believe everything that comes out of his mouth no matter how obviously hypocritical it is.

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  66. Well what's funny about Hall too is that he basically had the Razor Ramon character in WCW during his first run as well -- the toothpick throw, the Razor's Edge, the posing, etc. The only thing he really added was the Scarface/Miami Beach accent and that obviously was not such a big part of it given how over he was in WCW without it.

    Vince just gave him a big push and let him do interviews is what it comes down to.

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  67. Yeah not to mention all the fucking Vince did with the NWA before and after Turner bought it between 1987 and 1989. It's not like he didn't have it coming.

    I could totally get with Vince's logic if he was like "I fucked them and they fucked me right back, good show!" but it always comes down to playing the victim with him and WCW being this giant mega corporation that tried to bankrupt his mom and pop business.

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  68. Yeah, I think this is a different issue and I do agree with you -- although there is a sort of 'battered wife' syndrome with ex-WCW talent in the WWF too.



    Like Chris Jericho honestly believes that his WCW character was crap and small-time, because all of the management and some of the wrestlers basically told him he had no idea how to work. That's preposterous -- the guy was seriously over and had a perfect blend of that cocky, smart-ass, chickenshit heel thing going for him.

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  69. "Hmmm, I wonder why people don't want to pay for The Network..."
    "Could it be that you've spent the last 13 years making it seem that 1/2 of your video library is filled with unwatchable crap? A practice that you carry on to this day, for zero logical reason, since it would seem that you actually WANT people to pay for the privilege of watching it."
    "No, it can't be that. Now how goes the video that shows the only good Flair matches were in the WWF?"
    "Fiiiine. If Flair had a good match, it was only in WWF. The videos of him vs Steamboat in '89 have been 'lost'. Are you sure we should be doing this?"
    "Do you want to have a job?"
    "Yeah. So you only want Austin's career after he became The Ringmaster, right?"
    "Now you're getting it..."

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  70. ...despite this same attitude fucking over his business right now, since it's more important to have things like "funny" top 10 lists about the best parts of Halloween Havoc, rather than to have actual footage that might actually compel people to pay for the mother-fucking network.

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  71. Still cracks me up that they act like parking outside an arena and shouting at a locked door was the biggest MNW moment after Austin/McMahon.

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  72. Yeah, there is plenty of story there for a DVD. I just think it's a difficult one to make sound like a balanced "epic feud". At least Bret and Shawn beat each other here and there.

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