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The OTHER match

I can respect that everyone has their own tastes but I think it just proves how binge watching old WWF doesn't give proper perspective to younger fans on the proper build, hype, and anticipation when someone prefers the SSlam 92 Savage/Warrior match over WM7

WM7 was a match when "career matches" were unheard of, with a Savage/Sherri 2-year storyline paid off and the Savage/Elizabeth near 7 year storyline paid off, and is one of the only times in the history of professional wrestling that women were crying at the emotion of the payoff

SSlam 92 was a doublecountout when Savage was being worried about for depression over his divorce and Warrior refused to turn heel and be given the win

... but i see comments from people declaring that The Rock sucks and has never drawn money though... just sad seeing such a classic match shrugged off

if you get an e-mail from someone claiming to prefer Flair/Steamboat from Spring Stampede 94 over 2/3 falls at Clash 6 I give up on reading comments

​I didn't realize this was such a hot button topic amongst the readership.  By the way, Warrior was never asked to turn heel.  He WAS promised the WWF title at some point, but the heel turn was just a rumor. 

I personally still feel WM7 was Warrior's best match ever, but I mean, I can see the argument.  Someone actually sent me the Warrior DVD (and it's also on Netflix) so I'll probably re-review that match soon and settle the debate for everyone by doing the thinking for them.  It's the least I can do.

Comments

  1. No one shrugged their WrestleMania 7 match off. Some people just thought their SummerSlam match was that good.

    This e-mail is stunningly overrractionary.

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  2. This is why I wish they'd get the shows on the Network so the angles can make more sense. Build is so important.

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  3. WOOOOOO DVD REVIEWS!!!!!

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  4. I miss those

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  5. There were fewer shows back then. Everything felt more special when you only had a few PPVs and they didnt run star vs star matches on every TV show. Yes, those were great angles being paid off by good storytellers, but a lot of our nostalgia comes from the scarcity of big events back then.

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  6. Pro Tip: if you get drunk and the first thing that comes to mind is to fire off rambling e-mails about what a bunch of people think about a random wrestling match from 20 years ago, maybe step away from wrestling for a while.

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  7. This is also why the whole "he got a rub just from working with that guy" thing has been a fallacy for years.

    Back when Hogan wrestled on TV 5 times a year? Yes.

    When John Cena wrestles on TV every other week? Not so much.

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  8. Um... the build to SummerSlam '92 was AWESOME. Flair and Perfect playing Warrior and Savage against each other was a great angle, capped off with great lines like this from the Nature Boy:

    "I made a career of beating up guys with face paint."

    I still prefer WM7, but writing off the build to the rematch is nonsense with a touch of irony, provided poor knowledge of what happened in 92 is the cause.

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  9. There's not a single fucking shred of evidence that Warrior was ever going to turn heel. Not only does it make zero sense on the surface (who the hell would his babyface challenger have been? Can't be Savage--his reign bombed and he was being turfed from main events after a token B-show run around the horn solely to put over Razor Ramon), but I've read all the Observers of the time. Meltzer doesn't even hint at a glimmer of a rumor. It's total, absolute hogwash.


    That said, WM7 was a better match. Way better.

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  10. Gunther the Nasty LoserNovember 4, 2014 at 9:36 PM

    We have plenty of semi recent examples of a good build.

    Like Booker/Edge over shampoo, or Mongo/Bulldog over coffee

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  11. That email is a great example of this weird, "You people don't know how to even appreciate wrestling, I'LL tell you how to appreciate WRESTLING!" mentality / meme.

    It's no different or less HILARIOUSLY entitled than to object to another fan being more positive or negative, and how they are "wrong".

    Soon to come: someone starts recapping famous recaps and grading them on how 'correct' they were. Buy my new Kindle book where I give play by play on every Netcop WWF 2000 PPV recap. Was Scott right or was he just phoning it in?

    Please don't anyone actually do that.

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  12. Just to quickly add that I'm all for recaps of wrestling, by anyone.

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  13. I'll say it -- the WM7 match has a shit finish. The post-match stuff is all-time great, but I hate the repetitive shoulderblocks with Savage rolling out of the ring.

    Slam is my preferred match too. Both great, but Slam had better, crisper work.

    Of course, I'm not going to tell people who feel differently they're wrong and must have been binge watching on the network.

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  14. CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!

    By that I mean I accept the challenge of not actually doing that.

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  15. Summerslam 92 was an awesome match but no question wm7>summerslam 92

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  16. To me, the one thing that had me prefer Summerslam 1992 just a bit more....

    WM 7: Even as a kid, I knew there was ZERO chance that Warrior wasn't winning. Savage as a bad guy had trouble beating guys like Hercules and Jim Duggan without tons of interference from Sherri. He just didn't seem in Warrior's league, and it just felt like a mismatch and a foregone conclusion.

    SummerSlam 1992, Savage was a good guy again, and had regained most of his edge, and was champ again. Suddenly, there was a bit of a doubt, and I had no idea about the outcome this time.

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  17. This could get very confusing if I have to award prizes for doing nothing.

    Some kind of Lanny Poffo memorial frisbee, maybe.

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  18. I found the finish ok, in that both guys had survived their opponents' finishers, so they were both running on fumes. So at that point, any move could beat them. Savage just ran out of gas.

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  19. I'm actually somewhat amused by this new trend of people writing me angry e-mails about stuff and then another group of people cutting down those e-mails when I post them. Keeps things interesting.

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  20. Vince in production meeting at Titan Towers with Phil Apollo:

    "I think it's logical that you be Otis. He's gonna... he's gonna... HE'S GONNA SIT BY THE DOCK OF THE BAY!! HE'S GONNA... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

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  21. Yeah, didn't the whole Warrior heel turn thing come out of some rumor about a prototype action figure after the fact? That's the first I ever heard of it.

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  22. Why do you do this to yourself, Scott? The people.... they don't know what they want! Half of these people that voted for you to do this don't even read the rants. Me? I do, Scott. I read them all. Forget this piece of trash of a wrestling show. You deserve better, my brother. You deserve Nitro.

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  23. Warrior/Macho is one of the best story telling matches I ever seen. I really loved it. Even made me cry when Macho/Liz reunited. Still my favorite Mania moment ever.

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  24. Yea, to me, it was a play of Warror when he looked up at the heavens was talking to the Gods for help. I loved that part so much as a kid.

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  25. SummerSlam '92..."What are they talking about in London NOW!" WOOOOO!!!!!

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  26. Wait, was it you in the crowd?

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  27. I love both but gotta go with the mania 7 match personally. One of the best examples of how dramatic a wrestling match can be. Used to have that on a best of Wrestlemania vhs as a kid and watched it over and over.

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  28. Well, "interesting"

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  29. Were your shoes too tight?

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  30. Go back to Nitro, these 95 Raws are balls

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  31. Is it...I know I'm drunk but...I have no idea what this email is trying to say.

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  32. On that Warrior DVD, Hogan mentions how Savage was a detail freak so no wonder he got great bouts with Warrior.
    A great bit on SummerSlam is when Heenan says Savage can retain the belt if counted out and Vince makes the great point that the title isn't enough, Savage had to prove he could beat the Warrior which was another great story point.

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  33. Likewise, zanatude, keep it up with SSW!

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  34. I get the deal with "Otis."

    1995 Vince finally got around to watching the first Christopher Reeve Superman movie and enjoyed the antics of Lex Luthor's bumbling sidekick, Otis.

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  35. Savage/Warrior II was not a double countout.

    Therefore, the entire post is invalid.

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  36. Just another guy who cant accept ppl having different opinions than him

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  37. CruelConnectionNumber2November 5, 2014 at 1:31 AM

    Awesome Clarence Mason shit. "If the Disqualification is eviDENT, you must bomb the next main EVENT"

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  38. CruelConnectionNumber2November 5, 2014 at 1:32 AM

    It's amazing how LAME and BORING Razor Ramon was from like Spring 1995 to Spring 1996 and then he shows up on Nitro and it's like "OMG! RAZOR! THIS IS AMAZING!"

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  39. He spoke to his damn hands. His hands were turning heel on him.

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  40. I know a lot of people like that.

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  41. Perhaps it was a production error? Because Otis Apollo was a pretty popular indy wrestler from Windsor, Ontario

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  42. He just didn't have any character or personality during this era. He was just "I'm Rrazor Rramon, The Bad Guy". And that was it. He never really had any motivations or Actual Purpose.

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  43. By pretty popular, you mean Otis Appolo was an Indy wrestler from Windsor, Ontario, right?

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  44. This happens all the time with the Attitude Era as well. Some of these old people matches and PPV are taken completely out of context watching them in a vacuum. I agree with everything the original poster said.

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  45. These fools clamoring for Nitro just don't understand. I understand Scott. Keep up the great work. We all appreciate it.

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  46. AverageJoeEverymanNovember 5, 2014 at 4:42 AM

    Mine would just have to tell me "No more masturbation." And they would be the biggest heels ever.

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  47. Yeah, he was a good worker/talker and the guy was over, but he was stuck in midcard hell throughout his entire run.

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  48. Extant1979 Most Must-See BoDerNovember 5, 2014 at 5:13 AM

    For about a second after the 3rd or 4th Savage elbow, I thought "Maybe?" And then I came to reality.

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  49. Probably; he just watched Back To School this year, I'm guessing.

    "Hey Hunter, Otis from that Superman movie was the dean of the college in this movie!"

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  50. One of the best matches ever...and it has Warrior in it.

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  51. The Jan. 1, 1996 Nitro features Ric Flair defending his newly won World Title against Hulk Hogan. I'm sure that's more interesting than the 11/6/95 Raw.

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  52. Aha! Because the History of the WWE site had him listed as Phil Apollo here but they never announced the jobber names on TV, so that would make sense.

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  53. According to that 1995 book I just read (Titan Sinking), Vince offered Razor a heel turn at Royal Rumble and then match with UT at WM11, and then yanked it away because he suddenly decided he loved King Kong Bundy instead. And it kind of crushed Razor's spirit for the rest of his run.

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  54. "Minor but annoying note: At this point, the “Tubular Bells” ripoff theme
    just loops the initial portion endlessly, rather than the extended
    version that became the norm later."

    I actually LOVED that detail. That, with the lighting made it weird and hypnotic. Was disappointed when they added to it.

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  55. Sadly, my area only got live PPV by 1996, but all the results were in da newspaper the following day. MAINSTREAM RASSLIN'!!

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  56. We're on an incredible run of unbearably obnoxious emails recently.

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  57. That would have been MUCH better. You could have had a proper heel Razor feud with Diesel as well, rather than what he wasted much of his year with.

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  58. Taker's streak includes 6 wins over Clique members. That Razor thing would have made it 7. That sucks.

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  59. Yeah even if Razor did the heel turn, I don't see him beating Undertaker so the big heel turn would've been wasted anyway.

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  60. He could've beaten Taker back then, I reckon. Especially if they were setting him up for Diesel.

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  61. I mean yeah, beating Taker at WM, maybe winning KOTR then challenging Diesel at Summerslam would have been pretty awesome booking, but I just can't see him going over Taker just because Undie rarely ever did the job.

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  62. A DQ there wouldn't have shocked me if they went with that.

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  63. EXCLUSIVE NEWS ABOUT UNDERTAKER WORKING WITH RAMON...

    Nah, never mind.

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  64. Taker did lose to Kama at KOTR. I know it’s
    not Mania, but Taker wasn’t Mr Wrestlemania at that point. To be honest (sorry)
    though, yeah, the more likely result would have been a Taker win. But it still
    would have been better for Razor than that throwaway match against JJ.

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  65. Why they never turned Razor heel and had him challenge Diesel amazed me. Would have been much better than the crappy Mabel/Sid feuds he was stuck with. Might have even drawn some money!

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  66. As a mark, I was so scared that Razor was turning heel around this period. I was actually relieved that it was the Kid who did, as he wasn't as important in the pecking order. All I cared about was good guys being on top.

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  67. If you're going to have Razor turn heel and give him the big main event heel push, they should book him against guys Razor can beat so they can rebuild his character. It always irks me when WWE book themselves into a corner by programming two guys together who shouldn't be doing jobs in the first place.

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  68. All I ever remember Jannetty doing was a (usually pretty decent) job of getting beaten up. Wasn't even aware he had any offense. Except the Rocker Dropper, unfortunately...

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  69. I was a huge Waltman mark and part of me was glad that he turned heel because a big heel turn normally means a good push, but at the same time I knew being aligned with Ted DiBiase was a career killing move for him.

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  70. That would've been the most likely scenario, but still, it's a crappy way to build someone up.

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  71. I also heard Vince originally wanted Bundy to beat Undie at WM because he loved the the guy so much.

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  72. I just realized something... "Next week: Bret Hart & Hakushi v. Jerry Lawler & Isaac Yankem!"

    This feud is STILL going on? No wonder I was so down on Bret during this period.

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  73. And Razor melting down the urn for a gold chain would have actually made sense!

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  74. Oh shit, we need to invent a time machine so we can make this happen :D

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  75. Oh yeah, Bret was none too happy about it dragging on like this either. That's why he was happy to have Bill Watts around, because Bill was a big proponent for making Bret the main guy again.

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  76. I mean, I was a Bret fan, but his act was so stale at this time that him beating Diesel for the title did come as a big shock to me because it just came out of nowhere. Plus it always irked me that Bret had trouble beating Lawler when everybody else on the roster had no trouble beating him.

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  77. MaffewOfBotchamaniaNovember 5, 2014 at 7:24 AM

    ''Jim Cornette introduces his official legal counsel, Clarence Mason, and he’s very litigious. Apparently the contract stated that the winner of the Diesel v. Bulldog match would get Bret Hart at Survivor Series, and since Bulldog won by DQ, he should have that match. That’s odd reasoning.''

    Seems like sound reasoning to me.

    He just wants HIS TITLE SHOT.

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  78. God, Bret just sticks out like a sore thumb there. That's such a mid-card tag match with the (real) former World Champion inexplicably involved.

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  79. If they had continued to push Hakushi has something more meaningful, then this wouldn't be a bad way to continue to give Hakushi the big rub, but Hakushi was teaming with Barry friggin Horrowitz for Christ sakes.

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  80. I loved the visual of Barry Horowitz in Bret's corner though.

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  81. You know the best way to build someone up for a big title match? Why, just have a jobber be your manager.

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  82. The extended version is probably my favorite theme ever but I loved the original too. It was so weird and creepy.

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  83. Barry clearly taught him a lot, since Bret sure as hell patted himself on the back quite a bit in his book. (thank you, thank you)

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  84. Against Bret Hart, who wasn't the champion?

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  85. He wanted the main event payday? Yeah, I've got nothing.

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  86. Since it's the Bulldog, the proper wording would be "That's BIZARREEEee reasoning"

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  87. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 7:45 AM

    I'm sure Nitro this time was one of the VERY FEW and NOT WORTH LOOKING UP ratings victories that WCW barely managed to pull of before the nWo came and completely changed everything until STONE COLD AND THE ROCK came and completely changed everything and a king was crowned...

    Fuck I gotta stop watching that show.

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  88. It's my second favourite theme, only behind forgotten gem "Great American Bash 1990: New Revolution": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fda6xIuR5ks

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  89. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 7:47 AM

    Sounds exactly like something Vinny would do. I mean to a tee.

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  90. And because Vince needs a strong heel to feed to Diesel, he puts Razor over Taker at 11 and poof...no streak.

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  91. Yeah, the MNW should totally be about the Dungeon of Doom and Diesel!

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  92. I feel like we're subjecting Scott to some kind of psychological torture making him watch this in sequence with an unreliable schedule while superior Nitros just sit there waiting.

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  93. I want to know what Scott thought of the real "Nature Boy" Buddy Landel's debut.

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  94. Only positive from that: We got to hear Flair's old WWF music again.

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  95. "Survivor Series Slam Jam with Dok Hendrix and a shitload of caffeine." Caffeine...riiiiiiiiiight...

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  96. Well, in this case it was Raw (2.1) vs. Nitro (2.3), so it was definitely a squeeker.

    But yeah, WCW was doing pretty well even before Scott Hall showed up on Nitro. It wasn't quite 50/50, but pretty much 60/40 Raw to Nitro. Not in WWF's version of the events of course, but in the reality.

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  97. WWF had won several straight before Hall showed up though. Michaels was smashing it as WWF Champ, and with no Hogan on the other side, WWF was definitely in the lead.

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  98. Those ratings are dumpster levels compared to what the nWo and Austin would draw, that's the point.

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  99. You leave Duke Droese out of this.

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  100. Sure, WWF had a good run for 7 weeks from April to Mid-May 1996... but that was all over by May 20 1996 (the week BEFORE Hall showed up). Nitro won 8 of the first 13 weeks of 1996 though (January through March).

    I'm just pointing that Nitro was a lot more competitive pre-nWo than "Monday Night War" tries to present,

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  101. Maybe it's the caffeine that makes him a racist.

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  102. Obviously. But I'm taking off of Theberzerker's comment where WWE now presents it as Nitro was some fringe program that was losing to the almighty RAW until the nWo angle. I'm just pointing out that Nitro was winning quite regularly before Hall showed up.

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  103. Ric Flair still owns the best burn on Buddy Landell: "I spend more in spilled drinks than you make in a year!"

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  104. AverageJoeEverymanNovember 5, 2014 at 8:35 AM

    I own your ashes now, Chico.

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  105. Ahh, that was the week before? I thought that was The Week. That's interesting. So that would be the first week that Nitro expanded to 90 minutes then.

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  106. More like "I've mooched more drinks, and left more unpaid bar tabs than you make in a year"?

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  107. An hour of all those segments of Sullivan dn Hogan in the Dungeon would be a FINE hour of television.

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  108. Better than Mr Wonderful!!! Or All American Boys!!????

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  109. Omg brilliant

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  110. He had like a match on superstars (maybe raw too), announced for the rumble, broke his ankle, and never heard from again on wwf tv lol. Ditto for xanta

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  111. And poor Bob Holly, having to job to a newcomer Flair wannabe..... who used a freaking elbow drop as a finisher.

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  112. Mr Wonderful is up there too.

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  113. Heard that promo sampled in a rap song a few years ago. Markout moment. Rappers love Ric Flair.

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  114. Yeah, you're definitely not wrong that RAW was on a winning streak going into May 1996, but the race was a lot more neck-and-neck than WWE presents in their "history."

    Maybe if RAW wasn't so shitty every week it wouldn't have been that way.

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  115. Pretty sure Otis Apollo was teaming with a young Scott D'Amore (although yeah, HoWWE says "Joe Kershner") in that match too, and Joe Dorgan was Johnny Swinger. It was a 1995 Border City Wrestling invasion of Manitoba / WWF.

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  116. Apollo's name isn't Otis so Vince calling him Otis is funny because it's not his name! Like Adam Sandler poop jokes - poop in your pants is funny because that's not where poop would typically be.

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  117. No wonder those jobbers never got over with all those name changes.

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  118. I've never seen that sentiment at all. Quite the opposite in fact. The WWE re-writes history meme is getting pretty old.

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  119. I'd watch the shit out of a doc that goes into all the details behind Hogan's pre nWo run in WCW but it would never happen.

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  120. Not enough humor has been mined out of poop being where it shouldn't be.

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  121. Yeah, that’d be good. Why it didn’t work, reactions from
    people at the time and stuff. I remember getting Hogan’s book and hoping for
    some interesting stuff from that period, but I swear I think he glossed over the
    whole thing in like 2 pages. I was pretty disappointed. What a shitty book!

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  122. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:15 AM

    Too bad it's never not true.

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  123. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:17 AM

    Not to mention now they try to make it look like once they won the ratings in April '98 they never lost ever again...when in fact they still traded victories all the way through the rest of the year.

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  124. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:18 AM

    I'm still trying to figure out the exact combination of drugs it takes to come up with shit like that and be serious about it.

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  125. Hey, it wasn’t the best comment in the
    world but I’m trying my best here :(

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  126. Where the eff is Bayless with the morning update

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  127. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:23 AM

    No not you, I mean the DoD storyline!

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  128. It's not. WWE might paint in broad strokes and dumbs things down for people but they don't re-write history. It's such a lazy complaint made by people who don't actually watch it.

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  129. A likely story! I'm being attacked! Don't back pedal!

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  130. You're literally making shit up now.

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  131. It couldn't possibly be that rebel flag he carries around with him.

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  132. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:35 AM

    I guess it depends on if you consider glossing over or leaving things out is re-writing. I do. I don't mince things too much here...intent always means more than content.

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  133. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:36 AM

    The curmudgeon-y internet guy who always disagrees with everyone and makes snarky comments all the time is a pretty fucking old meme there too, brah.

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  134. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:37 AM

    Who's pedal?? I don't back him I don't even know him!

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  135. Sorry for calling you out. Please continue being wrong.

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  136. Leaving out what? What haven't they covered in the endless amount of docs about that era that they have produced?

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  137. Of course they do. He spends loads of money on partying, drinks, and bling.


    He also has a bunch of kids from different women, and ends up losing all the money he has. They can relate.

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  138. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:42 AM

    Your argument sounds like you're basing everything off of written transcripts of each show instead of watching them and seeing how everything is presented. Let me repeat that last bit there, HOW EVERYTHING IS PRESENTED.

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  139. Theberzerker! HUSS!November 5, 2014 at 9:49 AM

    Gee thanks Superman!

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  140. These shows may suck but it's uncovered territory. So many people have reviewed or are reviewing Nitro that I'd rather you stick with this.

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  141. I attended that Nitro at the Omni. Unfortunately I was also in attendance at the other Nitro in the Omni in March '97. Piper's family invaded that show.

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  142. In an ideal world, if Razor hadn't bailed for WCW, he'd have turned heel after WM12 so we could get Ladder Match 3, for the big belt this time.

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  143. Vince was clueless when Heenan compared Slick to Al Green on Prime Time, I don't know if Otis Redding would be on his radar either.

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  144. Virgil's Gimmick TableNovember 5, 2014 at 11:05 AM

    "We're send him shitty wrestling. The worst we can find. Lalala."

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  145. Razor's two best outfits were the purple ones he had on here, and his black/yellow look he wore in his last match vs Vader. I hated when he wore yellow or green.

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  146. "Yep Mode" Abeyance Brown ©November 5, 2014 at 11:13 AM

    It is pretty odd.

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  147. MaffewOfBotchamaniaNovember 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM

    He wanted Bret because he knew he'd fall flat on his fucking arse.

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  148. Uh, did you watch the first MNW episode? if anytrhing, they went overboard and implied that Nitro kicked Raw's ass from the jump.

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  149. While that may be true, I hope Buddy saved/didn't get divorced three times, and came out ahead. Because fuck Ric Flair.

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  150. How was the book? I just looked it up on Amazon and it looks like something I'd enjoy. Is it mainly results of what matches happened in '95 or is it written like a regular book?

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  151. huh, you obviously weren't that "smart" back then?!

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  152. Well the repeated comments about how WCW had zero homegrown stars before Goldberg, which pointedly ignores Sting and Flair to name a couple. Then you have the oversell of Ted vs. Vince when during the MNW Ted probably thought about WCW about 2 minutes a month. You have the repeated shots of DX everytime they mention Raw retaking the ratings crown in April 98 or even starting to gain momentum in Decemberish with no corresponding shots or mention of Austin. That is just a few off the top of my head.

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  153. while I think Cultstatus is no selling the BS that WWE tosses in these MNW shows, they have referred to WCW winning nights in several episodes and talk about trading ratings victories back and forth in Summer of 98 just in the most recent Rock episode. On this point WWE is innocent.

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  154. Keep up the Raw reviews - I can't wait for the infamous -- Diesel: The truck stops here.

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  155. Shots of DX in a montage is how WWE is re-writing history....lmao ok.

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  156. It's a regular book, written as a history of the year with lots of little stories and backstory on the guys and stuff. I wrote a review on Amazon and gave it *****!

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  157. It would need to include his "let me smell that Slim Jim breath" promo with Savage

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  158. This random adding on the network does suck. I;m watching raw, nitro and the ppv's in order and reading the new rants as i go along which is easy since raw has been a chore these first two plus years. Hope they just do a dump soon for the rest of 95

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  159. Awesome. I'll check it out. Thanks!

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