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So what is actually going wrong ?

Hey Scott,

Longtime fan boa bla. I'm listening to JR and Keller review Survivor Series. So much of what they are saying about booking in the company makes so much sense and I just get really confused as to how it doesn't translate onto TV. Sure these crappy soap writers know nothing about booking and only coming up with subpar tropes we'd see on The CW but if Vince is the be all and end all and rewrites and has final say then why isn't it the TV better ? Surely Vince knows basic booking 101 from his many many years in the business and the success he has had and I could possibly say the same for HHH coming from the background of being a worker himself. So if Vince and Hunter are the two making the final decisions then why is everything so crappy ?

Has Vince completely lost his mojo and HHH doesn't have enough influence to get sensible booking by him or are they both just too blinded by the whole PG, corporate, public company landscape they are in that they aren't willing to try any formulas that have worked so well in the past i.e continuity of storyline, making people actually give a shit about titles and mid card talent as opposed to just Cena, Orton and I'm assuming Reigns once he's shoved down our throat.

Thanks,


Basically Vince should watch NXT Takeover and do everything like THAT instead of how he's been doing it.  Clearly if Vince oversees the main product and it's so shitty, whereas HHH oversees NXT and it's awesome, then we can tell where the fundamental problem lies.  Last night's show addressed all of your complaints and showed exactly how RAW should have been treated all year.

Comments

  1. On the other hand, Vince has overseen the main product for many years, largely successfully.


    HHH has what, a year's worth of show handling to compare this with? For all we know he's blown his wad with every idea and concept he had, and the show starts to completely blow from next week on.


    It's all a matter of how much they have left in the tank, not "So what have you done for me lately?" A marathon, not a sprint etc.

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  2. I totally agree with this. Let's see if HHH can keep the momentum going.

    It's also reasonable to assume Steph, being the head of creative, has no idea what she's doing and Vimce has so many different parts of the company to oversee, he's really not paying as much attention to her anymore.

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  3. There seems to be far too many categories many of which seem to extremely similar.
    Sometimes less is more.

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  4. When is it time for the RSPWFAQ awards?


    Best Meltdown
    Biggest Troll
    The Vince Jordan Memorial "Lately I've Seen A Lot Of People Here..." Award For Best Lie.
    The Big Bully Meekin Award For Worst Post. [not comment - post]
    Funniest Comment
    Most Heart-Breaking Comment
    BOD Superstar Of The Year


    Any suggestions for other awards?

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  5. From what I understand, HHH is a fan of old school NWA. If this is truly the case, all he would need to do is book things in a similar fashion. He would know that the Zayn/Owens type feud works 100% of the time when it comes to sucking people in.


    In other words, you don't need to go crazy or fancy with the booking. Just redo the old stories in a contemporary way. There's 50 years of material right there.

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  6. The Baker Award for craziest/dumbest email (not named Baker)?

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  7. Absolutely agree.


    And of course, whilst others will disagree, it's nevertheless inevitable that RAW will be subject to certain contractual obligations as regards sponsors, outside network, costing - domestic AND world-wide. Plus RAW is consistently live and three hours long, with a lot of mainstream 'star' involvement.


    Constraints that *to the best of my knowledge* NXT does not have.

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  8. Like any humans have actually visited rec.sport.pro-wrestling in the past ten years...

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  9. The Zanatude Award for Most Ignored Content on The Blog of Doom

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  10. Love it!


    If this really was the RSPW awards, I'd suggest a Baker Award for Best Use Of Kane.

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  11. That's all well and good but how does it get Cena more over?

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  12. NXT is 1 hour a week with a permanent base with it's own fanbase. WWE is 7 hours a week touring. There are huge differences which need to be taken into account when comparing the products.

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  13. And yet he was broke by 2009 and JBL had to bail him out? This fucking guy Shawn Michaels.

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  14. I have no real idea what a rec sport is.

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  15. Whatever happened to zanatude? I've not seen them around here in forever. Miss their stuff.

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  16. Came here to post exactly this. Thanks.


    Also, you have a small hungry roster in NXT with far less of the political BS that goes on with the main roster. And the NXT folks get to perform in front of a few hundred great fans who are so into everything and get everything over, where as Raw is in front of much bigger arenas with much more casual fans.

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  17. I wonder if that speaks to a fundamental truth about wrestling. Maybe you can only keep even the most hardcore of fan's attention for some many hours a week. Maybe there's only so many ideas and tropes in wrestling that they're stretching things too thin and needing to think up less inviting or interesting stories.

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  18. I think so far NXT is pretty great. I just hope that it and HHH have got longevity on their side. If things are still as good as they are say, a year from now then I'm fine with him taking over WWE and marrying my sister.

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  19. It still makes me laugh when I think of this one Sting email he sent in where it started "I think the simplest booking to do would be...." before launching into a three paragraph convoluted storyline that involves bringing Flair and possibly others out of retirement. Scott just brushed it aside with "That's the simplest idea?"

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  20. Probably. Imagine if you had three hours of prime quality Breaking Bad each week, then two hours of lesser but still somewhat important episodes and another individual hour or two of real simple stuff... people would tune out.


    I'd rather Raw just be an hour and have everything fly by like the early Nitros.

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  21. On a somewhat related topic, I've been watching the 1996 Raws as they have been added to the Network. Vince seems to cream him pants anytime HBK enters the ring. Its easy to see now where the HBK - Vince affair rumors starting.

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  22. It's the simplest idea that Baker has which doesn't involve Kane being paid off as a mercenary!

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  23. Always been that way.It takes roughly 7 hours to fill this out when it is ready.

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  24. I'm not sure what the audience has to do with anything. Are you saying WWE can't book a normal wrestling show because of seven hours of television?

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  25. Well, at least you know the extent of your popularity.

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  26. mattyouweresupposedtoignorethiscomment

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  27. Must have gone over to that forum that started up.

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  28. Poster With Most Tears In Their Eyes

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  29. MikeyMike, JuggernautDecember 12, 2014 at 6:34 AM

    Ok, so, I DON'T THINK THAT IT'S THAT BAD RIGHT NOW!
    But I think that it could be improved upon. The Attitude Era ain't happening, but let's go back to 2008 when the booking was very good. And that's what they should aim for. Wrestlers having legit reasons to dislike each other and feud with each other while both sides of the feud look like stars.
    Here is a list off the top of my head of guys that were pretty over and looked like stars in 2008, moreso than guys today:
    Jericho, Michaels, HHH, Edge, Undertaker, Batista, Jeff Hardy, Orton, Cena.

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  30. I would have to nominate The Ghost of Jobber123 for BOD Superstar of the Year.

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  31. No nominations yet! We need to agree on categories first, bro!

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  32. USA Network can't be blamed for the quantity of WWE programming though. When they introduced Main Event it was for the eventual aim of having a WWE show on every night of the week. They felt there was value in producing as much content as possible for future use. It's what they want and it's duuuuumb.

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  33. The whole point of NXT is to get everyone over. Yeah, no burials, far less politics. But that should be what Raw is as well. It's fucking stupid that it's not.

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  34. "HHH, you are now my kin. And as such, I'll let you drive my Camaro as soon as I get the Gawd-dang driveshaft fixed!"

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  35. I guess so. I hope they've not died or anything.


    zanatude, if you're out there somewhere reading this... get in touch. We miss you and want you to come home.

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  36. I'd love to see this asked to Shawn so he can scrunch his face, shrug and say he was on a lot of drugs then

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  37. Just like your wife / girlfriend / sister!

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  38. Always an appropriate image to post:
    https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNJ8xw7yX7VagE0MpxxtT5cpKOWDd7rC8SXSgAUfcbSRk7s9mz

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  39. Okay, so wait... we like Triple H again and aren't blaming him for the shitty product and keeping Punk down?

    I just want to recalibrate to know where everyone is at.

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  40. Yes, taken into account, but none that make the comparison impossible to make. There are definite lessons that can be learned and adopted to make work on the larger stage. The most obvious lesson is figuring out what the audience would like to see and giving that to them. They did it to critical acclaim at WrestleMania, but in the subsequent months seem to have gone further and further away from what interests the fans.

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  41. It's a little more complicated than that.

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  42. I believe we are a nation divided between those who think HHH is The Answer and those who think HHH is a self-obsessed blithering idiot.

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  43. Maybe NXT is the main product and RAW is the side product?

    Did I just blow your mind?

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  44. Fuuuck. What if they've ALREADY taken over?

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  45. Not just Vince, but Dixie needs to watch NXT too. Booking wrestling isn't rocket science.

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  46. HHH is, for all we know, in charge of NXT. He's done a really good job so far. He also has a massive ego when it comes to certain things, and sometimes keeps talent down because of it.


    He is hard to define at times.

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  47. This.


    It doesn't have to be this convoluted puzzle.

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  48. But the comparison doesn't make sense. Is there a rule that says you can't book compelling storylines and angles on network TV?

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  49. Some people seem to think it is. "Whoa, hey, Kevin Owens can't stab his friend in the back on Raw! What about the Slammys?"

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  50. She's got the small roster, small crowd, low viewership thing down, she just needs to work on the wrestling bit.

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  51. She doesn't have time. She's too busy trying to sign Khali, Drew McIntyre, Curt Hawkins, Yoshi Tatsu, JTG, Aksana and Evan Bourne.

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  52. They just need logical and coherent storylines. What they are doing now is not that. There is not a single thing that is compelling about the WWE right now. They can turn on the switch and start trying after TLC to build to Mania but that method is getting tiresome and the star power on the roster is shrinking.

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  53. The show is crappy because Vince has never been a booker.


    He is a tweaker of ideas.


    Pretty Pat and George Scott (South? i cant remember right now) booked his early shit. Then Pritchard came along... Then Corny, Then Russo/Kreski and now to the people you have today.


    Vince just gave the stamp of approval, threw in an idea or two on top of the good foundation made by his bookers.


    If all you are getting is crap from TV writers who do not understand the business... Vince tweaking crap... is still crap. You can not make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

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  54. When Orton comes back, they're planning to have him feud with Kane. Big show is getting another push and wrestled mark Henry in the past few months. Cena has recently wrestled both Orton and big show. All of that is basically what's wrong. They're reshuffling the same dull stuff as people lose interest

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  55. I think I've read they employ TV writers because they have the most experience churning out material on tight deadlines.

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  56. It was always said that Russo was the ideas man and Vince
    was the filter, but I think you’re right that Patterson was the guy who
    probably cleaned up both of these maniacs mad plans.

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  57. Step 1 - Make the fucking titles mean something, even us smarks buy into the titles when presented correctly. If the titles don't mean anything, what the hell are we watching for? Why are the wrestlers even bothering to show up?


    Luke Harper won the Intercontinental title for the 1st time last month, his record since then... 0-11. The guys a quality talent and he's 34 years old and probably watched Davey Boy Smith topple Bret Hart at Summerslam '92 as a 12 year old and now his dreams come true and they saddle him with this shit. Why? The entire philosophy has to change but with Vince,Stephanie & Dunn in charge i don't have high hopes.

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  58. Trips can book anyone but himself.

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  59. I DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE SO THERE!

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  60. It's just crazy that the philosophy is apparently that
    they DO think the titles still mean something, which is why they feel they can
    job the champions, because being IC Champ is SO IMPRESSIVE that they think guys
    with that belt around their waist are bulletproof and they're able to beat
    them.

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  61. That's a terrible reason to hire them. That means, "Fuck quality, but we're on time!"

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  62. Yeah, 2008 was a great year in terms of well-written storylines. There were a lot of layered, interwoven angles.

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  63. This may be true.

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  64. So much of RAW is simply under-thought yet overwritten. Some call it "Wrestling 101" but its even simpler than that. It's a morality tale of Good versus Evil played out in a setting of violent athletic competition. As far back as paintings on cave walls and stories told beside cooking fires, man has sought to grapple with his own duality of desiring peace yet craving bloodshed.

    WWE has locked themselves into a storytelling dynamic so narrowly-focused and repetitive that they have almost literally lost the ability to engage the primal interests of their fans. They have established a storyline world where evil always wins; and a world of violence where said violence has been drained of all brutality, realism or consequence.

    They have become a cartoon: one where the coyote usually catches the roadrunner, the hunter usually catches the wabbit, and the sailor man rarely beats the bully who takes away his girl.

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  65. Being IC champion was also considered a big deal because if you won the IC title then you had a good chance being world champion if you got over. One of the cool things back in the 90s was watching guys slowly working their way up by winning midcard titles.

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  66. Exactly. Expecting guys who write Soap Operas and Straight to DVD comedies to craft a well-thought out product is ridiculous. They write dialogue for those thing, not pro wrestlers. Pro wrestlers should not be reading scripted dialogue by people who do not know how to write wrestling.

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  67. This is the problem with taking what is supposed to be a sport and presenting it as a variety show. Sports fans will watch year-round football, baseball, basketball & hockey games that last similar lengths of time. To devote similar attention to scripted dramas, comedies & action shows depends on the quality of the writing.

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  68. Vince has never been known to value many of the traditional aspects of wrestling and in the absence of any comparable competition he has less incentive than ever. Titles having importance, unrehearsed promos -- that's all wrassling stuff that doesn't apply to the variety show he runs. I'm sure even if Triple H does what he can to steer it back a little, It's still the overriding vision of the company.

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  69. Extant1979 - Mr. Cable AccessDecember 12, 2014 at 7:34 AM

    USA Network is the reason Raw is at 3 hours.

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  70. I hadn't watched any NXT until the Takeover, and and I was impressed/entertained by it in a way that RAW hasn't done for me in almost a decade.


    I could see the old school NWA influence for sure. The darkened arena makes it feel more like a WRESTLING show than the sterile and stale HD-era RAW set does. Even the commentary was better. There's genuine energy and grit to it, instead of Cole's corporate-speak and Lawler being on sleepy autopilot for the past 8 years.

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  71. I can't figure it out. With Bruno, NXT, and Vince getting older, HHH is hailed as the hero and savior. CM Punk paints Vince as OK, and HHH as the out of touch one. Then you have HHH chopping Lesnar off at the knees moving into Bryan being held back, but then HHH doing the job for him on the biggest stage.

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  72. My point is that NXT has inherit advantages that allow everyone to get over more easily than on the main roster.


    However, WWE does a shitty job at trying to get their main roster over with all the start-stop pushes and 50/50 booking.

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  73. Another thing killing RAW is the formatting. There used to be a time where laying out a show meant figuring out the order of the matches and promos, and the amount of time for each. Your main event then either went short or long based on the timing if what happened earlier.

    Today it's all that, but scripted almost to the second. The primary job of the writers isn't crafting creative or even just good storylines, it's formatting what they write to fit into the rigid structure of the show. Then Vince comes along and jumbles it up--forcing the bulk of the company's energies from that moment on to be focused on merely present a coherent final product (something which they too often fail at).

    The company going public, sponsors, the network, being live--all this has combined to take away from WWE's ability to do what it once did much more easily. When Vince McMahon says "we tell stories," I almost think he says that to convince himself.

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  74. Dixie needs to take a Business 101 course first.

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  75. Of course not. But NXT is more booked and not written, by a much smaller team which allows for clearer and more defined visions. Having a huge writing staff and home and away staffs is a terrible way to go about things. There's also four major NXT events which allow for easier long term planning with as close to an end game/result as you'll have in a sport/show that runs all year.

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  76. I think the most overrated thing in wrestling history is "Vince knows basic booking"


    Vince is an excellent promoter. He's an excellent hawker of wares to children. He's an excellent hype man.


    I think if you look at the time periods where he was most influential in determining what the on screen product looked like (Mid to late 80s; early to mid 90s), you'd be hard pressed to say he's the best booker.


    It didn't matter in the 80s because he had Hulk Hogan which trumped everything. I think if you look at some of the down the card decisions in terms of feuds, who went over, who got buried, etc, he didn't do a particularly great job. But Hogan trumped everything.


    And when it came time to build his next Hogan, he completely dropped the ball by picking Warrior.


    In the 90s when he didn't have Hogan, he almost booked the company into the ground. Only when he started deferring to writers (who were wrestling savvy, despite all the shit Russo gets, and clearly he couldn't run his own company, he churned out enough good stuff with the bad stuff and McMahon was a good enough filter that it worked) did WWF get its second boom period.


    Vince doesn't like "wrestling" ("It's what my father did") and he sure as hell doesn't like "wrasslin" (which is where a lot of Jim Ross' education and booking comes from).


    And so he doesn't invest in the foundation of his product (in-ring action) and because he doesn't like "wrasslin" guys, they've systematically ran a lot of those people out of the company and they've surrounded themselves with writers who don't really have a background in wrestling and I would guess don't really fundamentally understand what fans like. Which would be fine, if they were good writers and capable of crafting a good story. Mark Burnett & Robert Rodriguez aren't wrestling guys. The direction they've given Lucha Underground is very unlike anything you've seen in wrestling, and yet very interesting. But WWE is picking up the dregs of Hollywood just because "They're from Hollywood! They must be mainstream!"

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  77. No sport lasts year round though. Even in the NFL, by weeks 16 and 17 when it's clear what teams are out of playoff contention, people start to feel like, "okay let's go. I have no reason to sit through Jets/Vikings." And most people feel like the baseball, basketball & hockey seasons are too long as is, but they're still far less than wrestling.


    And sports has the inherit advantage that you can miss a game or two and pick up from where you left off because it isn't episodic television. Raw, in theory, is like any other network show that requires you to watch every week in order to keep up with what's happening.

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  78. Don't be fooled. Dusty is the guy wielding influence over NXT. HHH is just taking all the credit because he built the performance center.

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  79. They don't build in any sense of urgency to the show. I remember a few months back the Rhodes Brothers turning heel on the Usos. Normally the announcers would act disgusted and they would hastily go to commercial break. In this instance they went into the bad theme music and segued right into the commercial break as if nothing was amiss. This really made the heel turn seem unimportant and I was left scratching my head wondering "why should I care?". They also have these weird heel beatdown segments where the bell never rings and other faces never make a save. They wonder why Cena gets booed, he rarely makes a save for a face in trouble. Sting was over as hell and part of that was his great relationship with the other faces on the WCW roster. The flow of the show is all fucked up. I know Scott hates the booking theory of "everything is fake except what you see right now" but sometimes that goes a long way.

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  80. WWE's, "they're from Hollywood! They must me mainstream!" is nearly as bad as TNA's, "they're from WWE! They must know this business!" which results in John Gaburck being Head of Creative for a wrestling company and WWE castoffs being positioned as top wrestlers.

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  81. A lot of people have suggested, most recently Punk, that Vince only cares about the top spot of the card and so he's not invested in anything else.


    I know Russo has said before they his goal when he was writing was to get everyone on the show over. Again, he clearly had a lot of creative issues himself, but I do think that he tried that showed in his work. i don't get the sense there's anyone thinking about how they can get Rhodes Brothers/Usos over, or turn the heat up on that in the back.

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  82. Russo's also said that Vince was always most concerned with what Austin was doing, and also invested in the other main eventers, but never focused on the midcard. Russo was someone who really went out of his way to help get midcarders over, but it wasn't something Vince really gave a shit about, and that's back in 1998 when he needed as much over talent as possible.

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  83. Dusty lost the book over a year ago.

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  84. I feel your confusion.

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  85. Flow is a major issue. There should be a build to things, but when you've written down everything that happens, everything that everyone says, the one element you can't script is fan reaction. So stuff happens and the amount the announcers over or underplay it is already scripted in. Vince is supposed to be there in their ears making on-the-fly adjustments, but clearly his instincts there have been way off for some time.

    I think the product would improve greatly if they could loosen up the process, and let the announcers react, not just recite.

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  86. Yeah, it's their biggest issue. The McMahons so desperately want to be something other than wrestling promoters. It's like Michael Corleone's trying to make the Corleone family business legitimate in Godfather II. At the end of the day you're still a gangster.


    At the end of the day the McMahons are still glorified carnies trying to con dollars out of the rubes (us!)

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  87. Really? I must have missed that. I still thought he was pretty much responsible for all the character creation, promos, etc.

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  88. Theberzerker! HUSS!December 12, 2014 at 8:02 AM

    Vince is the cancer in his own system. Last night definitely proves that. Things won't be perfect under HHH, but they'll be a hell of a lot better than THIS tripe we have to sit through now.
    I don't know how it'll play out, if HHH will be able to wrest (er, sorry, RASST) full power away from him at some point or if Vince will just randomly step down at some point (or suddenly pass away), but the ONLY way anything will get better is when Vince is gone. And that could realistically be 10 or more years from now...*shudder*

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  89. Football (soccer) lasts 9 months of the year. UFC lasts all year round. Most sports continue throughout most of the year, it tends to be just the major US team sports that have short seasons.

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  90. Not that you don't already know this, but it's possible to be complimentary and critical at the same time. Yet, I predict fans (even the ones here) will want to paint him with broad strokes and just label him good or bad. HHH has blindspots just like Vince.

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  91. The only way Vince goes (other than death or incapacitation) is if the stock tanks so bad the family basically has an intervention with him. I mean, there's no real mechanism in place to force him out if he doesn't want to go.


    Triple H is clearly more of a fan of wrestling and sees its importance, but I get the impression he's a guy unlike Vince, who would have trouble swallowing his pride and doing what's best for business when it comes to mending fences with guys.

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  92. Well my point with sports is that an enthusiastic fan will follow different sports year round. Similarly TV fans will seek out shows they like of whatever genre year round.

    With wrestling, if one feels RAW is no longer entertaining to them for whatever reason, there just aren't enough alternatives to explore.

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  93. It all makes sense now.

    HBK was DDP's mysterious benefactor.

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  94. I do have to laugh at Vince's quirks though.

    He banned the use of "Jr" from Rey Mysterio and Chavo Guerrero's names because "being a Junior SUCKS!"


    He has the sense of humor of a 13 year old boy.


    I'm sure he hates tag team wrestling because some 4th grade teacher of his broke the class up into two person groups and some "son of a bitch partner" cost Vince a gold star.


    He used to book himself to have sex with every diva.


    He thinks women will kill each other if they legitimately fight like UFC.

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  95. Seems like he is the guy negotiating with all the guys coming back so I think HHH will be fine in that regard....

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  96. For anyone saying the two products can't be compared because writing for all of these shows is SO difficult, please consider...

    1. The main brand doesn't have 7 hours of new material. They have something closer to 5 or 5.5 with all of their recaps. Main Event and Superstars have much less wrestling, more recaps, and little development.
    2. How many of the hours of the main brand are actually engaging or entertaining? How many hours of NXT are engaging or entertaining? Looking at the sum totals, they may be in a dead heat or NXT might actually be ahead in some weeks. That's kind of sad.
    3. Their creative staff for the main brand numbers at roughly 30 people. They should be getting more things done.

    This is not apples to oranges. Even with some of the poor, indie-level gimmicks, you could be justified in saying NXT is better. NXT clearly has a more simplified, relatable format with more input from the actual workers.

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  97. Theberzerker! HUSS!December 12, 2014 at 8:13 AM

    Very likely. Not to mention if HHH stays an on-air authority figure, forget about it...no way he shows as much ass as Vince. Then again, that's not entirely a bad thing either...

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  98. It's still working though...

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  99. Booking himself to have sex with every diva seems pretty genius to me...

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  100. RIP Kiss My Ass club.....

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  101. Seems the guys with biggest egos like Punk and Goldberg have the biggest problems with HHH...

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  102. HHH negotiated with the guys that burned bridges with Vince, not HHH personally, so while HHH is happy to bring in Bruno and Warrior, I don't see him asking Punk to come back.

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  103. I think there is a deep issue with those two. Not saying HHH is the greatest but this would happen with anybody in charge. Nobody in the world is going to get along with everybody....

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  104. Wanna improve everything Vince? Give Tony Garea the fucking book mate...

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  105. HHH is the guy negotiating with everybody not just the legends. He orchestrates the Jericho returns, the Rock returns, pretty sure even the Brock stuff....

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  106. I predict an ugly period of transition: mainly because there seem to be a lot of people there who kissed Vince's ass so long that they are entrenched in the company--burrowed in deep like ticks. I'm sure there's an entire list of people Hunter would like to can immediately, but can't because they've made themselves or their positions indispensable. On top of that you're going to have investors and a network to deal with, which may force Hunter to reign in his better instincts. Worst case scenario is Hunter basically has to become Vince to replace him. All this on top of WWE having become this juggernaut machine that doesn't run quite right, but no one remembers how it was built (much less fix it). They only know where to feed in the ingredients, which buttons to push to produce the least amount of smoke and grinding gear noises, and still have whatever it's supposed to make come out the chute at the end.

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  107. Raw without adverts is usually about 2:20. Smackdown 1:20. So that’s
    only 3 hours 40 of main programming a week. With a bigger roster it shouldn’t really feel
    like the same shit every week.

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  108. Just to play devil's advocate, how much NXT stuff would work in WWE? It is a different environment/audience/crowd/vibe. Adam Rose kind of worked in NXT but bombed on the main stage. You can question whether Bo Dallas was sabotaged by creative or not, but that didn't really work. I don't really think something like the Vaudevillans will play well on RAW. I'm sure Bayley will probably bomb if/when she gets up there even though I like her. I don't have high expectations for The Ascension despite doing pretty well in NXT just because their gimmick works better when they're fighting Sin Cara/Kalisto frequently than it will when they go up against normal WWE main roster sized guys.


    You can compare the two because one is a good wrestling show (NXT) and one is bad (RAW), but I don't know that what one does is a solution to the other's problems.

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  109. HBK addressed it in a tweet and said it was just an urban legend.

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  110. I know in the past 10 years or so there's always been a lot of predicting doom for WWE, and then something happens and they turn it around for a six month stretch and everyone's happy, but this does feel a little different this time.


    Maybe it's the network and the fact that everyone knows as fact at this point that they're leveraged so heavily on it succeeding and if it doesn't they're going to be in a world of hurt.

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  111. Then I dunno who the hell I strangled earlier.

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  112. And Shawn never even showed off his calves or thighs!

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  113. "If you say I did..."

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  114. It's not the gimmicks, it's how they're used. They gave up on Adam Rose after two appearances. Bo Dallas was actually getting over with his winning streak but they killed that. They put Neville, Zayn, Breeze & Kidd in a match together that wowed the crowd--never followed up on it. Just this week Charlotte seemed to be getting over in a mere 2 minutes when whammo--they had her lose.

    There are gimmicks that I dont think will transfer at all to the RAW stage (Vaudvillains), bit something like the Ascension could if done right. If they debut by losing to the Usos... dead in the water.

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  115. Who actually books NXT? Dusty?

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  116. But that highlights another problem - Vince doesn't want them to be "pro wrestlers". He wants them to be entertainers, with an eye on getting them into TV & movie roles and appearances on talk shows. He wants so badly to be more than a wrestling company that he seems willing to sacrifice the quality of his primary product to do so.

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  117. This year feels like they've done the "Lucy yanks the football away before Charlie Brown can kick it" one time too many. All that frustration building to the fans hijacking shows, forcing them to feature Daniel Bryan--only to have Bryan immediately dumped in a nothing feud with Kane, topped off by the injury removing him completely... it all seems to have broken the will of the fans. Apathy has set in. Fans are tuning out. There is no bandage or splint that can fix the company this time. They need big changes to not only draw old fans back, but to build new ones as well.

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  118. This. He wants to be Billionaire Ted: media mogul.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Current Vince’s idea of adjusting on the fly is to go out on the stage
    and yell at the audience for being miserable like in Liverpool.

    ReplyDelete
  120. The Love-Matic Grampa!December 12, 2014 at 9:01 AM

    THANK YOU.

    Pro wrestling people try to pretend that booking is some magical formula that only a select few can truly master, mainly because then they can con money marks into believing that only they hold the keys to success (case in point: Russo). Sure, experience helps, but anyone with common sense, knowledge of how wrestling works, people skills and the ability to recognize talent has a decent shot at booking a successful wrestling promotion.

    ReplyDelete
  121. He also SHOULDN'T show as much ass as Vince. Vince was never a wrestler and was already 53 when he became "Mr. McMahon". Triple H is a former 13-time world champion and is only 45.

    This is also why he shouldn't be the authority figure.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Crikey Mate Down Under AussieDecember 12, 2014 at 9:16 AM

    Commenters who's opinions I value-
    The Fuj
    Love-Matic Grandpa
    Flair4DaGold

    ReplyDelete
  123. Crikey Mate Down Under AussieDecember 12, 2014 at 9:18 AM

    Thank you!!

    Commenters who's opinions I value-
    The Fuj
    Love-Matic Grandpa
    Flair4DaGold

    ReplyDelete
  124. The Love-Matic Grampa!December 12, 2014 at 9:19 AM

    The plan is apparently for Reigns to go over at Wrestlemania for the title, possibly over Lesnar but maybe even Rollins or someone else. Now, whether that's a wise move or not is another debate, but if that's the plan then so be it. But how are they getting there? Yes, he was injured and couldn't wrestle, but have him disappear completely until Monday? If he really is the Heir Apparent, then communicate that to the fans. Give them updates on his condition, show him doing charity work, book him on mainstream shows, etc. until he's ready to return for action. We talk here all the time about certain guys being "shoved down our throats", but sometimes it IS necessary. And I would argue that is exactly what they should be doing with Roman, and yet they seem to be pushing him in as low-key a manner as possible. Are they worried about another fan revolt? Are they not sure about going "all in" on Reigns? Maybe HHH and Vince are on different sides of the issue and can't come to terms? Who knows, but the end result is underwhelming.

    That's why the Slammy deal was so funny/weird to me. Reigns wins "Superstar of the Year" and that somehow marks the start of his push to the title? That just seems backwards to me. Book him as strong as possible for the year, have him win the award and THEN have him challenge for the belt. That's "Wrestling 101" in a nutshell. Instead, they had a Slammy show planned, and just squeezed him in to try and make up for lost time and momentum. This kind of stuff doesn't necessarily kill companies or anything (and I think Reigns will be just fine in the long run), but it doesn't help.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Pat Patterson was more important than any of us will ever know.

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  126. Reigns did many updates on his condition, and I know he was on ESPN a couple times along with lots of promotion for 2k15. I don't know how much more mainstream WWE can get, and a still fairly unknown talent like Reigns, can be with their current popularity.



    The charity stuff seems to be another issue where they perceive only Cena and the McMahons do it.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Hes his boytoy. Duh

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  128. this just reminds me of Bret's book when he talks about Vince liking to hear from his champion everyday.

    ReplyDelete
  129. It's like when Spike Lee used to have sex with hot chicks his first few movies.. It's the same thing I would do if I'm the director.

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  130. The Love-Matic Grampa!December 12, 2014 at 9:46 AM

    Updates on his Facebook/Twitter/social media accounts or actual updates on WWE television? I'm legitimately asking because I am unaware of any updates on RAW beyond the initial injury report.

    And I still say they should have done more to keep Roman visible during his time away. Don't let people forget that he's on his way up the ladder instead of riding the treadmill like 90% of the roster.

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  131. I wish I had a count of how many times the scenario played out on the Bret-Shawn DVD

    ReplyDelete
  132. I keep watching and thinking "I wonder if Vince knows what "flamboyant" means, because he says it A LOT

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  133. What are you implying flamboyant means exactly??

    ReplyDelete
  134. {sigh} ok, yes I understand the dictionary definition. I meant more colloquially that is generally used in reference to gay men. I thought it was ironic considering the talk about Vince having a crush on Shawn.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Indeed. The constant Shawn Michaels ass kissing in 1996 was ridiculous and in hindsight even more obnoxious than it seemed at the time.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Ah, and any implication/suggestion/inference of homosexuality would be a reason to be embarrassed. I understand now.

    ReplyDelete
  137. seriously? Stop acting like a Gawker commenter. It was a joke. There's inherent humor in Vince acting/talking like he's into Shawn but being so tone deaf to not realize that's what it sounded like.


    I definitely should have replied: "maybe vince DID like Shawn, and that would be ok everybody!!" would that have been better for your very delicate sensibilities?

    ReplyDelete
  138. "I can't say for sure that I spent $2.5M on pills and blow. It SOUNDS like something I would have done, though, yes."

    ReplyDelete
  139. IT WAS ME ALLLLL ALONG

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  140. I thought this was debunked in one of Kevin Nash shoot interviews. Since I really only listen to those while mowing the lawn, it could be a good four months before I can confirm it.

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  141. Well no of course not, but the fact that Vince always tries so hard to come across as a manly alpha male type--body building, motorcycle, cigars and all that-and that he's promoting a sport that theoretically appeals to said alpha male, redneckish types, and then he goes so overboard in squeeing over a man he describes as "flamboyant" is just such an ironic juxtaposition as to be amusing.


    To be clear; if Vince actually was into Shawn, there'd be nothing funny about it. The fact that he probably wasn't but that his efforts to promote his Champion make it sound like he was is what's funny.

    ReplyDelete
  142. This peaks at Survivor Series '96 where Vince is so excited he can barely speak. "There it is, there it is, Sweet Che-De-De-Der!"

    ReplyDelete
  143. All the while saying "You know..." fifteen thousand times in the span of six minutes.

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  144. Welcome to the blog, Mr. Patterson.

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  145. Hahahahaha, because Patterson is gay...that is so funny I can't even begin to comprehend how long it took you to come up with that.

    ReplyDelete
  146. thank god you do. Was worried you might be retarded. Load off my mind.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Well, seeing how long it took for you to get that inferring homosexuality is embarrassing, I don't doubt that you couldn't guess how long it took him to write the joke. (Comprehend doesn't really work in your sentence. )
    I'm pretty sure you've never written a joke, so the process is understandably confusing for you.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Your understanding of syntax and the English language is pretty embarrassing. The fact you are trying to defend homophobia, blatant or implied, tells me all I need to know. X

    ReplyDelete
  149. guy was such a jerk to everyone and everything he had to become born again just to avoid owning up to it... think they teach you that shrug answer at the first meeting

    ReplyDelete
  150. since he's been born again etc. and one of the highest paid in pro wrestling wonder if anyone has bothered to ask him about giving that money back to the fan's family
    what a hero

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  151. Sad that you don't take other things into consideration. Hey one way binary thinkers deserve rights too, I suppose.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Oh yes, I am very sad that this entire conversation is taking place in the 21st century. What else could possibly need to be taken into consideration? The implication was offensive and your (and others) attempt to justify it is galling.

    ReplyDelete
  153. In 2012 someone asked shawn about the million inheritence on twitter and shawn denied it saying it was just a rumor and not true.

    ReplyDelete
  154. the self righteous act to give yourself a sense of superiority is pretty obvious here.

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  155. lol you are a the quintessential liberal. whining about being 'offended' and thinking that by announcing what century it is, it somehow strengthens your point of view. Next thing we'll see is you correcting someone's grammar and spelling. The chronically offended Rob. Let's all walk on eggshells because he cannot develop resiliency and a thicker skin and gets offended by everything

    ReplyDelete
  156. Homophobia is a myth

    ReplyDelete
  157. Wow, a troll liberal asshole and troll conservative asshole debuting in the same thread.

    Fun times we're living in isn't it.

    ReplyDelete
  158. how are either one of us 'trolling'?

    ReplyDelete
  159. What forum is this? The Ghost town one for this blog?

    ReplyDelete
  160. Well, I figured a comment as hilariously out of touch as "homophobia is a myth" was intended to incite a negative reaction for your amusement.

    If you said it in earnest, you're not a troll, just a dumbass.

    I sincerely apologize if that is infact the case.

    ReplyDelete
  161. About 2 seconds.

    Happy to amuse you. Clearly you needed a laugh. :)

    ReplyDelete
  162. 'Troll liberal asshole'.

    Really, that the best thing you got to say? Why bother?!

    ReplyDelete
  163. Yep, so is racism, misogyny and climate change.

    ReplyDelete
  164. You don't even know me. I wasn't talking to you. And it seems you are the offended one or else you wouldn't have commented at all.

    And I wouldn't start a sentence with lol, ever. It would also be too easy to make fun of your grammar, so I won't.

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  165. Disagreeing with those who freely decide to engage in what is seen as a deviant sexual behavior isnt fear. I think rape is morally wrong too so I must have rapephobia

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  166. You are the one who is out of touch for thinking it is an actual thing. It is a fear tactic created and used to silence any opposition to the liberal gay agenda. Educated yourself and get with the times.

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  167. Honey, you have no clue what deviant sexual behaviour I get up to,

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  168. the real trolls on this forum are the ones that go around posting bret/tears comments on as many posts as they can and think they are original and witty.

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  169. so anyone that comments on a comment on a discussion forum is offended? huh, how does that work? If you want a private conversation and other people not commenting maybe you should consider a more private means of communicating. The whole grammar correcting thing online is done by people that feel inferior and look for ways to give themselves an artificial sense of superiority. It is a type of defense mechanism.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Wow. You really are just ignorant.

    ReplyDelete
  171. I can see how it came off like how you described. I think Vince was trying to get shawn over more as an Elvis type figure that ladies want to be with, guys want to be, and who everyone appreciates his talents and charisma. That was his goal and it was only moderately successful

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  172. no. I just like to seek to truth on issues instead of pretending things are a certain way so I can feel good about myself. But enough about this. You are welcome to have the last word

    ReplyDelete
  173. I never understood how shawn stripping after matches and pulling his tights down to show his ass and pubes was gonna get him more over. The audience is predominately male and the show was still aimed at familes and kids when he was doing so in late 95 into 96

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  174. Recreation. That is what rec. means. Do you want a detailed discussion about newsgroups and the history of the internet? The "rec." was in the front, probably because it wasn't like news or research or

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  175. I think obsessing over and being disgusted by what happens in a stranger's bedroom is more deviant than engaging in said sexual act.

    ReplyDelete
  176. And i am sad that its the 21st century and you're here thinking that you are doing anything other than masturbating your ego and sense of self righteousness by arguing on a pro wrestling message board about homophobia. Think you're going to teach a lot of folks this way, do you? Think you're going to make a point and change someone'mind? Or do you think you're just being annoying and a laughing stock?

    As for what should be taken into consideration is that people are pretty complex and are defined by more than just one think. You should know that.

    And for fucks sake...being easily offended doesn't make you progressive. Just makes you a douche.

    ReplyDelete
  177. And you don't knowvany of us, so I guess that makes us even.

    And Jesus Christ, man...bringing up grammar is fucking pitiful..as if has any impact on anything. Just masturbating some more, ain't you?

    ReplyDelete
  178. I am not easily offended, and wasn't even really offended to begin with. You offend me though, so does your tone.

    Do you even remember that you brought up grammar in the first place you dumb prick? Sweety, I suppose that means we are mutually masturbating our egos!!

    ReplyDelete
  179. No, I brought up vocabulary, pumpkin. You do know the difference, right? Or are you too busy fighting the good fight....on pro wrestling message boards. (And let me tell you, the gays are totally grateful for your efforts. Finally pro wrestling message boards are safe from supposed homophobia. ) This is all just so gay.

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  180. Virgil's Gimmick TableDecember 13, 2014 at 1:43 AM

    I think Bret said something in his book about the spot that Shawn and all his Kliq buddies would do where WOOPS! Shawn's tights came down! Look at his ass, girls! And how he refused to do that spot for him.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Virgil's Gimmick TableDecember 13, 2014 at 1:44 AM

    It was the late 90's. "Faggot" was still everyone's favorite word.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Virgil's Gimmick TableDecember 13, 2014 at 1:46 AM

    HAHAHAHAHA! I didn't know Glenn Beck was on the forum!

    ReplyDelete
  183. Wow, you really are an idiot. A persons vocabulary concerns the range and depth of their language. Grammar is sentence structure.

    You are making me a little hard though, with your spunky rebuttals.

    ReplyDelete
  184. ...are you for real? Yeah, sorry you got confused (probably the blood leaving your brain when you got hard...which is creepy. Is that a gay thing?) I'll break it down nice and easy. I was mocking your vocabulary because you like to use .50¢ words, but don't know how to use them, or probably even what they mean. Inconceivable, right?

    You're trying too hard to make yourself look smart, but you're not. Pointed out several reasons you're not. Anyway my little faux social warrior, I'm done with you. Go hawk your little homophobia lessons elsewhere, and if you're so inclined, feel to suck a dick or two. Piss off.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Lol @ the idea of his church involvement him MORE likely to give money back

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  186. Yep, the "condescension disguised as contrition" face.

    ReplyDelete
  187. MaffewOfBotchamaniaDecember 14, 2014 at 9:26 PM

    THIS FUCKING THREAD.

    ReplyDelete

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