Sunday, March 22, 2015

Wrestlemania 12 question

Hi, Scott. I was just watching Wrestlemania 12 again and I can't help
thinking how Bret vs. Shawn at their peaks should've been a 5 star
affair easily and it just wasn't. It wasn't a bad match, but either
because of the booking or the tensions between the two guys it just
fell flat. I was wondering if you can think of any other matches that
looked like sure MOTY candidates on paper and weren't for whatever
reason. Thanks.

​Shawn v. Perfect at Summerslam 93 was of course the most glaring example of that.  Shawn v. Austin at WM14 should have been the epic launch of Austin​ and Shawn nearly gutted out a classic, but it wasn't quite there.  Steiners v. Road Warriors at Starrcade 89 should have been awesome and just wasn't.  Ditto for the Muta matches on that show where he was clearly unmotivated (and can you blame him?) 

Also, Roman Reigns v. Big Show.

166 comments:

  1. Is it getting to the point where we're at the backlash against the backlash against that match? Because I really like it.

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  2. This seems to be the general consensus, but I've never felt it it's not five star. I love that match. It builds logically, has fantastic sustained action, and a really dramatic finish. I think it's fair to say it's for a particular fan of a particular kind of match. But for those with patience who like all the details, I love WM 12.

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  3. I love it too, it's five stars to me as well.

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  4. It could've been great. If not for Bret being an asshole.

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  5. Thank you! The popular opinion on the match has really turned sour over the years, and while I get some of the complaints, I love the match. I just love the detail that goes into an segment. It tells a great story, the execution is top notch, the chain wrestling is good. It's like a super updated version of the 1970s/80s style that I like so much. I like all of the iron man matches (my #2 is Steamboat/Rude for sure), but this one is unique in its intricate face vs face dynamic. It's one of my personal faves.

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  6. Eddie Vs. Rey @ WM21. Of course with their respective ages/sizes i wasn't expecting a repeat of Halloween Havoc 97, but I think about what could have been if not for Rey having to adjust his stupid mask to see every 5 seconds

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  7. Muta was terrible when unmotivated.

    I'd put punk/Jericho from whatever mania that was.

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  8. Going in to WM 21, I assumed Eddie and Rey were going to make everyone else on the show look like ham n' eggers. It was a real stunner how far off the mark that match was.

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  9. I haven't not watched the whole thing since it was live, but i remember being let down by it. Rude/steamboat is much better

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  10. Rock/HHH iron man match was better too.

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  11. Problem is the damn point of an Iron Man match is to score as many falls as you can but of course, neither Bret or Shawn wanted to be the first guy to get beat. Had it been a regular bout going so long, it might have come off better but a no-falls Iron Man? Just not right.

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  12. Hey, cut Shawn/Austin some slack, it's stunning Shawn was able to walk at the time.

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  13. I just think Rude/Steamboat is different. I also love it. But the story is structured around a particular face/heel dynamic. Bret vs Shawn couldn't be that match. But, I think it is pretty awesome for what it is, and it's one of the last times I think North American wrestling had a match like that. Just 60 minutes of wrestling, strategy, and some really fun moments.

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  14. i see what you did there

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  15. I always preferred Rock-HHH.

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  16. Angle vs Samoa Joe was expected to be an absolute dream bout and it just didn't come off as anything really special.

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  17. Brock vs Goldberg. Both guys were feeling unmotivated for the obvious reasons relating to crowd reactions.


    People used to say this about Punk vs Jericho at Wrestlemania 28 too, but I don't quite remember it being a disappointment.

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  18. YankeesHoganTripleHFanMarch 22, 2015 at 7:48 PM

    Punk vs Jericho was fine but nothing was topping HITC and Rock/Cena that night

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  19. Hogan Andre III
    first one headlined the biggest wrestling event ever
    second one was the most watched ever with a classic ending
    3rd one sucked


    Note: I know they both couldn't work at the time but the 8 year old me thought they were the best

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  20. Both Muto/Takada matches were just ghastly. Of course they both sold out the Tokyo Dome, but that match sold itself. The work was awful, and both guys were at fault.

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  21. they have? I admit I don't hit the news sites, but from posting here and other places I generally hear the big stuff. I have NEVER heard that their heat was any sort of work and Bret's book says it wasnt.

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  22. Burt Macklin, FBIMarch 22, 2015 at 7:53 PM

    Punk-Jericho was awesome.

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  23. YankeesHoganTripleHFanMarch 22, 2015 at 7:53 PM

    What about Hogan Andre IV? Wrestlefest. Yeah.

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  24. I think it's a very good match with some clear flaws, though I also don't know if there was a truly elegant solution. I get the WWF's logic in not having the new champ do jobs, even in an Ironman Match. But while I think the match would have been better either with falls or as a straight draw, I don't know how you pull a 60-minute draw off without telegraphing it.

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  25. We've all noted how bad HHH-Orton at Mania XXV was. It really speaks volumes that in that "30 Years of Mania" book, HHH openly admits they ruined the build right off with the whole "counted out or disqualified, he loses the belt" stip. Yeah, they were doomed having to follow HBK/Taker but Hunter himself acknowledges that it should have been a huge no holds barred brawled but handcuffed themselves from doing their best.

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  26. Burt Macklin, FBIMarch 22, 2015 at 7:54 PM

    Watch their Rivalry DVD. 2 hour sit down with JR. They go over that. I also remember Bret admitting the "get the fuck out of my ring" was planned.

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  27. I don't think there was legit heat until '97.

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  28. absolutely. It's become so bashed it is now underrated, much like Jarrett/Shawn went from an underrated match to an overrated one.

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  29. I liked that match. It wasn't much, but it was kind of the blowoff before SummerSlam. And I liked the Superstar on the micro-phone baby.

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  30. I thought Punk/Triple H was going to be a classic. Stupid me.

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  31. That Rivalry DVD has them openly saying it was. Good stuff there with how they tried to replicate it in '97 but it got out of hand and Bret brilliantly sums it all up with "we worked ourselves into a shoot."

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  32. Burt Macklin, FBIMarch 22, 2015 at 7:55 PM

    Orton/HHH should have been what their Last Man Standing match at No Mercy 2007 was.

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  33. didn't even know there was a 4th match

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  34. Thought Jannetty vs Shawn at Royal Rumble 93 was good but thought it would be much better, their later match on RAW that year was obviously way better.

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  35. Honestly that is disapointing, for one of two reasons. Either then Bret was a liar in his book where he talks about his issues with Shawn pre-title, or he's BSing on the DVD (which I own but only watched the first 30 minutes or so of the interview before forgetting about it. Guess I gotta dig it out) to "bury the hatchet." While Bret's true anger with Shawn came after the title match and because he felt Shawn was a terrible example for both fans and the locker room (again this in his book, so who knows how true it is now that I've heard this) Shawn and the Kliq was undermining Bret in 95 and Bret has said he had little respect for Shawn due to his drug use, refusals to job, and overall unprofessionialsim, while respecting his in ring work. I guess I would prefer to think Bret decided to "bury the hatchet" on the DVD set and wasn't lying in his book, but either way it's irritating.


    Bret does admit the "heat" they showed the fans on camera was a work in 95/96, but in his book he says he didn't respect Shawn and the kliq certainly didn't do Bret any favors in the booking department with their pull. And in 97 the "work" got way out of control, mostly by Shawn with comments about needing notes from God to get the belt off Bret (blatantly untrue) and the sunny days comments.

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  36. Punk/Jericho sorta suffered from the same thing that killed Orton/HHH, which is the needless "title changes hands on a disqualification" stip



    The buildup in both feuds basically pleaded to end with one guy being left on his deathbed, which can't quite be achieved in a straight wrestling match (unless you're Kevin Owens).

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  37. Shawn Michaels, the only guy in the history of the business to refuse to take the first fall when they are eventually going to win an ironman match

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  38. Poor Hunter. Had to follow Shawn/Taker AND Rock/Hogan...

    ROFL

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  39. again referring to the book, he talks about Shawn potatoing him in the WM12 match. There was obviously something, or Bret is a big liar in his book. either way I think the big issue with the match (which is certainly not bad and technially proficient, if not a tad boring) is they didn't trust their fitness level and they couldn't look into the future 15-20 years and realize that fans would buy into the big move, lay around for 3 minutes, style of HBK/UT and HHH/UT and call them 5 star classics. Instead they cut a slow pace for the first 20 minutes or so to conserve energy.

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  40. Well it would have been had they given it more than 10 minutes. It was rushed.

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  41. Jannetty was under the influence and fired afterwards.

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  42. Bret's just as guilty I think

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  43. "Ween" Dean AndrewsMarch 22, 2015 at 8:18 PM

    Chris Jericho vs RVD at King Of The Ring (01? 02?) Sorry Chris.

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  44. The idea is to establish the new guy as the better man over the old guy. How does having Bret get the first fall help Shawn? It suggests Bret won the match but only lost due to the stipulations - and considering how he used the overtime to claim he was screwed he would have used that to.

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  45. Just be glad no one died.

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  46. That DVD of them together really is great, seeing them bounce off each other. A bit is Bret saying he heard Shawn was only going to defend against Kliq guys and Shawn says he doesn't remember making the comment but given what he was like at the time, he doesn't doubt he did. The book was written before he worked on that DVD in 2005 and think finally putting things to bed in his return in 2011 has allowed Bret to be more open on how it all was yet still that own pride and ego hurting him.

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  47. From what I remember Bret didn't think Shawn was the right guy and didn't necessarily want to be replaced by him but they got along fine at the time. Bret started to talk shit about Shawn while he was away but said it was a work to build up a rematch - Shawn said some of the comments felt like personal attacks and felt Bret was saying it was a work to get away with saying what he wanted and the tensions kind of grew from there.

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  48. Winning the first fall in a match where winning the most falls in a certain amount of time is the objective has never been important. Your hatred for Bret is blinding your sense of reason.

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  49. In Shawn's book he said they just didn't feel like the two best in the world should be beating each other multiple times in one match. Keep in mind this is a putting Shawn over as the new top guy situation so they did have to be somewhat careful how it all came off...another problem with an Iron Man match is that they know they have to get through 60 minutes so they slow the pace down and work rest holds for minutes at a time...if they were told to just go all out for as long as they wanted it's probably a more exciting 40 minute match is so. There's also more drama because by 20 minutes left you pretty much knew it would be one fall at the end of the match.

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  50. I don't hate Bret. If Bret beats Shawn 20 minutes in it gives the impression Bret would have won. They threw in a spot where it looked like Shawn should have beat Diesel to set up a rematch the year before and it didn't turn out well for Diesel.

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  51. CM Punk vs Chris Benoit

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  52. I love that match. Love that they fight over a wristlock for like 10 minutes. Love that there's only 1 fall. Love Bret's reaction to the decision to have overtime. Love all of it.

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  53. I wouldn't compare a visual pin in a one fall match to a first fall in an Iron Man match.

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  54. I didn't like the overtime. It have Bret a bit of an out where he said he retained the title and lost in overtime he didn't agree to. It also didn't fit Bret's character as a fighting champion when he's taking the belt and trying to escape with it then complaining the match had to continue.

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  55. I love bits and pieces. I think the final five minutes of regulation are spectacular with Shawn getting constant near-falls on Bret with all types of crazy moves. Like you, I also love the segment between the end of regulation and the start of overtime (my favorite part being Bret himself calling for the bell to start overtime). Another nice touch by Bret (maybe intentional, maybe not) is how he took the second superkick, he leaves his leg up in a way that Shawn could swoop down and cover and hook the leg in one swift motion. My favorite spot of the whole match is about twenty minutes in when Shawn takes off Tony Chimel's head with a superkick outside the ring. The look of terror on Bret's face as the kick is coming in and the subsequent knocking out of Chimel ("this guy is knocked out, McMahon") is great.


    Where we differ is I don't like the one fall. I think each guy should have been counted out at least once. Hell, there's a spot in the middle where Shawn gets backdropped over the corner ring post and is outside the ring for like a minute-and-a-half and somehow doesn't get counted out.

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  56. Shawn/Trips, HIAC.

    I was so sure that that would be the greatest match ever. Halfway through, I wanted to blow my brains out from boredom.

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  57. So if the point of the match is to put Shawn over as the better man why not give him the first fall then?

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  58. I forgot about Bret signalling to ring the bell...I thought he came off heelish in all of that. Like he knew he couldn't beat Shawn so he was just happy to escape with the title, then not being happy the match had to continue, then trying to get overtime started before Shawn could recover. I don't know if it was intentional or not but it didn't fit the character to that point.

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  59. My whole thing on the "no falls" aspect is that up to that point Shawn Michaels had never pinned Bret Hart so the 1st time should be an epic moment (which it was).


    I can live with your countout idea. Puts over the uniqueness of the iron man concept too.

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  60. Bret winning the first fall then Shawn winning the next two doesn't put him over strong as "resilient"?

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  61. That's how I saw it to. Bret getting the first fall makes Shawn look like he can't beat Bret and Shawn proving he can 20 minutes in is anticlimactic.

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  62. I agree that it was heelish. But I always looked at it as Shawn was totally saved by the bell. He was in the sharpshooter with no chance to escape or make the ropes. So to have to break the hold for the timelimit, and then give Shawn time to recover, would be frustrating to the guy who had, at the time the sharpshooter was applied, was in complete control. So I think the calling for the bell himself implied "well alright then, no more rest of him then."


    Also, how epic was the backdrop Shawn took then just moments later? Easily the highest one I've ever seen.

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  63. Yeah I agree with both you guys. Certainly in the moment watching it (which really is all that matters), the one fall thing worked fine. But from a rewatch standpoint (which isn't as important), it hurts the match a bit.

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  64. If gives Bret's character an out. He points out if it was a regular match he would have won, just like he did with the overtime. They booked themselves into a corner where it really didn't make sense for either guy to lose first.

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  65. Daniel Bryan/CM Punk never had a match with each other that I would rate higher than "pretty good"

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  66. Yeah, I love this match. It's everything I love about pro wrestling.


    I've seen it from start to finish twice and have no desire to watch it again any time soon (it's been about 10 years since my last viewing).

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  67. It's the War and Peace of wrestling. An absolute classic, but few people have the patience for it.

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  68. He went up so high it felt like he was suspended in air for a few seconds there. Good point though, I forgot that Bret essentially had the match won before the time limit expired so character wise it would make sense for him to be frustrated he had to break the hold and start the match over.

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  69. Punk/Jericho in 2012?

    Maybe it's just that they're my two favorites ever, but I thought we were getting a 9-star match and I don't know if either was quite 4 stars.

    Their match the next year was actually pretty great, but it had no build and was mostly just window dressing to Punk returning in Chicago.

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  70. Who's to say he refused? I'm sure Bret would have mentioned it in his book if that was the case and he didn't.

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  71. Giving Bret an out is what people call setting up a rematch. That's business 101.

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  72. Well they should have given Shawn an out to set up a rematch with Austin then.

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  73. Over the Limit, May 2012. I wouldn't go quite 5 stars because the finish was a little wishy-washy, but I wouldn't argue too much with those that go the full Monty (as I believe Scott eventually did).

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  74. I looked at the complaining bit as sowing the seeds for a future heel turn, especially how angry he looked walking to the back. Plus, as a mark, I agreed with his point.

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  75. I love it, recognize its greatness, and never want to see it again.

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  76. Yeah, he's always been fairly open with his grievances and he's never said Shawn refused to lose first. Shawn's talked about it and said the idea was that the two beat shouldn't be able to beat each other multiple times.

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  77. Shawn was having surgery. His career in jeopardy, return unknown.

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  78. Me too. I think the nuance and effort gets overlooked too often. The spot when Shawn does a blind dive onto Bret is just amazing. It's especially amazing that they had that level of trust with one another between the bells given their growing dislike for one another.

    And like you, I think it ABSOLUTELY needed to have just one fall. It got across that these were the two best wrestlers on the planet and nobody else was in their league (kayfabe-wise, not here to start a flame war with Misawa people or whatever).

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  79. Bret's contract was up and his return wasn't assured either.

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  80. There was little pashion to it. It was clinically sound, but there was nothing that would interest a casual fan to the point of making them want to see more.

    Any John Cens vs X match had a bigger aura than that.

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  81. It's worth skimming through from time-to-time if you have it on your hard drive. I'm can't tell ya the last time I watched it from start to finish. But from time to time I'll throw it on, skip past some wristlocks, headlocks, and the like....and enjoy all the good stuff.

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  82. The timekeeper spot always seemed odd. What was the point of it?

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  83. I didn't like Shawn's WM12 tights. Or Bret's for that matter.

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  84. I disagree. If Bret got the first fall, Shawn just has to make the point that he knew he had to pace himself (given the 60 minutes length), and was conserving his energy to make sure he finished stronger.


    Does any team in an NFL game seriously argue that scoring the first
    touchdown makes them the ‘better’ team, since ‘if’ it was overtime rules, they
    would have won the game?

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  85. Maybe it was just throw in to break up some of the monotony of having to do such a long match. Or it could have been a botch for all we know. Maybe Shawn went for the kick thinking "Well Bret will know enough to avoid my finisher outside of the ring and if the timekeeper eats, then so be it." The uncertainty of it is part of what makes it great.

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  86. Absolutely.


    And it's really a match where you need to understand its context. How this Shawn Michaels guy has never beaten Bret Hart (but Bret's got multiple wins over him), and if he comes up short he may never get another shot (before the days of Jack Swagger: World Champion). That's why I hate when people compare it to Rock/HHH (a match I like, but for different reasons).

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  87. Brett-Shawn was really just a victim of high expectations. People were expecting the greatest match of all time and when they didn't get it they tended to go overboard in their criticism. With the benefit of hindsight it really should have just been a normal match, but taken on its own merits it's still very good (I can't call it a great match, just takes a little too long to get out of second gear).

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  88. I get that they were trying to add the drama of HHH going too far and losing the title because of it, but the whole angle called for a brawl....I also thought Orton going over there would have been huge for him.

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  89. Maybe if Reigns and Big Show wrestle another 17 times they'll reach their potential.

    We'll see at Extreme Rules, won't we?

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  90. Agree with both of you, technically superb but I just didn't care. Their rematch at MITB knocks it into a crooked hat.

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  91. I hated Cena/Michaels from Wrestlemania when I saw it, and hated it a few months ago when I watched it again. The legwork on Cena consisted of melodramatic punches and kicks, and the ref pulling Cena off of Shawn when Shawn grabs the ropes is really stupid. The whole thing felt forced. I liked the raw match but I was flabbergasted when I read Scott's ****3/4 of the Mania 23 main event.

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  92. Their RAW rematch in England was better

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  93. I hope that's the first of my title shots for Big Show

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  94. The main issue though is they should've just announced it as a regular match and then played up that it went 60 unexpectedly. Always thought they should've just went all the way with the hennig bockwickle formula instead of just lifting the finish

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  95. The ending was terrible

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  96. I actually liked Shawn's. I would choose that outfit when I'd play as him on last year's WWE2K game. Bret's was just basically his standard gear wasn't it? And by standard I mean the one he wore the most....not always. My favorite Bret gear was from Survivor Series '96 and the one I hate is the god-awful all-pink one from Wrestlemania 8 and 9.


    Listen to us...talking about men's tights. God help us.

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  97. Yup, I bought Band Blood just for that, and I still don't know how tthose two could have such a crappy cell match.

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  98. Not to pile on Bret Hart, but his whole WCW career felt like a series of potentially great matches where they weren't bad, just underwhelming.


    Vs Sting, vs Hennig, vs Booker, vs Piper, vs Savage, vs Flair (the best of this bunch but I still felt a little disappointed). Only the Benoit ones seemed to live up to their potential.

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  99. I liked Shawn's red or black gear. I did like his white and red tights from WM11 though. And he wore white and red the year before. White must have been his special WM colour.....Bret just wore his all black gear, looked kind of plain. I liked either pink singlet or tights, but I didn't like all one colour. Was Survivor Series 96 the darker pink top with some orange?

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  100. danimalcrossing.comMarch 22, 2015 at 9:34 PM

    You've gotta be kidding me! Some of these estate sales have prices out their mind. Some have some reasonable buys. Here's a pro tip. Get there early.

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  101. Oh shit I always marked hard when Bret busted out the all-pink tights!


    I don't know why exactly, maybe cause it was his rarest outfit.

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  102. Just in case no one else has said this, your Avatar is the shit.

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  103. Yeah a darker pink. I never actually noticed the orange till you mentioned it:
    http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TipWX54E-5w/hqdefault.jpg

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  104. The all pink outfit meant it was a big match!

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  105. Bret and Shawn never had a genuinely great match IMO. WM dosen't make the grade for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam, but neither do their other two PPV encounters. Survivor's '92 is technically sound but lacking a certain something and Montreal ends abruptly just as it's starting to get really good. Shame they never had the all time classic they were certainly capable of.

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  106. Knuckleberry PinnMarch 22, 2015 at 9:39 PM

    Shawn's tights at Summerslam 96>all

    I think he only wore those once yet somehow an action figure of him I had as a kid had him wearing those.

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  107. Thank you! "Troll" creeped me out as a kid.

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  108. The Jakks figure had those tights.

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  109. Montreal is easily my favorite. Just an intense brawl with a superhot crowd. Because of the amazing ending, people forget how great the match was up until that point. Similarly, because of the horrible ending, people forget how shitty Hogan/Sting at Starrcade was up until that point.

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  110. Virgil's Gimmick TableMarch 22, 2015 at 9:43 PM

    The fact that Bret vs Shawn was booked as an Iron Man match was what ruined it.

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  111. I particularly liked Brets 1994 tights. And you're right, one reason why I'd never use my real name on here!

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  112. The one's with the white marks on them?

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  113. I'd love to know the last time he wore the all-pink (cause I'm into useless trivia).

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  114. Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the all pink outfit.

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  115. It's a shame we never got a proper match out of them that year cause neither of them were better than they were that year.

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  116. I haven't watched it in 5 or 6 years at this point (mostly due to my general drift away from wrestling post-Benoit and as my graduate work picked up in intensity, not to mention family life), but I used to watch it frequently back in the mid-2000s. I just love the pace. It's like watching good sci-fi, a good murder mystery, or the Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh for me. It's kind of slow, but I love the detail and the process. Just watching two guys take a realistic approach to the stipulations is cool to me. It's a pitchers duel or goaltending duel. If it's done well, it's just as exciting as a high scoring affair. And both Shawn and Bret knew their craft.

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  117. I don't know for sure, but the last time I remember him wearing that was Survivor Series 1995.

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  118. Theberzerker, #1 HUSS CHOMPIONMarch 22, 2015 at 9:57 PM

    The Steiners/Warriors match on Nitro around the time Scott is reviewing now in '96 is so much better than their Starrcade '89 match it's not even funny. Because it's fucking inconceivable that it is. But it is.

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  119. Theberzerker, #1 HUSS CHOMPIONMarch 22, 2015 at 9:59 PM

    His match with LOLHeelSting at Mayhem was going just fun until they overbooked it to complete shit halfway through. A precursor of TNA events to come.

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  120. Damn I forgot that was an all-pink match. That's gotta be it.

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  121. Theberzerker, #1 HUSS CHOMPIONMarch 22, 2015 at 10:01 PM

    The orange in Bret's tights at SurSer '96 always bugged me. Magenta and orange? Push-lease, Bret.

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  122. Hennig, Piper and Savage seen better days by then, and Bret/Flair never seemed to click. Wasn't one of his Booker matches really good? But had his heart been in it he could have gotten more out of what he had to work with

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  123. Oh, it's very good, no argument there. Ironically, it's my favorite as well. But it really needed an extra 5-10 min plus an untainted finish.

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  124. He wears all pink vs Vader on Raw in 96. He's also wearing plain white boots which looked odd. I don't remember any all pink after that.

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  125. Starrcade 89 is one of my favorite shows.

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  126. The black ones?

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  127. Bret/Shawn Iron Man is still one of my all-time favorite matches. I'll concede that the iron man stipulation hurts it a little. If WWE wanted to, they could fix that by re-dubbing the commentary and turning it into a 1 hour draw. I'll also concede that Bret's selling of Shawn's arm work could be better.

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  128. I could be forgetting a good Booker match.


    They didn't do him any favors, but with his heart/head in the right place he could've had classics with all those guys (ok maybe not Piper). 1997 Pre-Montreal Bret Hart was a god, it's a shame SSeries tore him up so badly. It was like he lost his soul. He never looked like he belonged there.

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  129. I think there was probably a lot of resentment starting to build even while they were technically still friends and the worked shoot thing just spun out of control as a result.

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  130. Shawn/Perfect is the gold standard, but they actually had a really nice match at the "Superstars and Stripes Forever" WrestleMania 7 special.

    Another 'one great match / one awful match' is Ted Dibiase/Virgil. Their WrestleMania 7 match is nothing, but the Summer Slam 1991 match is surprisingly fun. Shows what good booking can do for ya.

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  131. I just looked it up on YT, Jan97 Raw.


    Motherfucker, I could've sworn he never rocked the all-pink post 1995 and here he is wearing it in 1997. He probably wore it in WCW and I just forgot.

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  132. I will say, Bret's match with Hennig at Uncensored 1998 actually has some really good segments, it just meanders in the middle. If they'd booked it like a full 20 minute match instead of a 10 minute match stretched into 20, it'd been one of his best WCW matches.

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  133. Punk and Jericho pulled a similar dynamic off well enough at 28. Part of the problem is just that Orton and HHH never had great chemistry.

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  134. Yeah, BRET was the asshole there. . . .

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  135. WAY too soon. . . .

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  136. Steve too frankly. . . .

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  137. I actually really like the HBK vs Austin match. If Shawn had never been able to return it still would have been a good match to end his career.

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  138. Great topic to do a lightning round with Scott! For Bret the best tights were KOTR '94(black speckled top and light pink trunks) for Shawn I'd have to say SummerSlam '95(blue tiger stripe). I'm a big sports uniform junkie I could discuss this all day. Let's get the convo going! Best Flair anyone? For me it's his '96 set (green trunks yellow boots).

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  139. The Jeff vs. Matt Hardy, Edge vs. Christian, and Edge vs. Matt Hardy singles matches never lived up to my expectations.

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  140. I like this one better too, but I like the mania one as well. To me it was one of the better worked mania main events.

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  141. I liked the black vs white look of that match.

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  142. This HBK/Bret at 12 sucked nonsense needs to stop.

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  143. I watched that match for the first time in years a few weeks ago and it aged really well for me. I'd go ****1/2 on it for sure.

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  144. That Superstars and Stripes match is awesome, partly because it was what I consider Prime Hennig. He was just ungodly good at that time.


    By 93 he was slowing a bit. He had great matches with Flair and Bret that year, but struggled at other times.

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  145. Totally agree. I liked it the first time I saw it, but every rewatch shows things I hate -- SHawn's selling, Cena's laughable mat wrestling stuff, the finish. The London match is in a whole different league.

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  146. Very well put.

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  147. I guess I just don't understand why the stipulation is an issue. The stipulation was a big reason my friends and I couldn't wait to order this show. It was so different from anything else going on at the time.

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  148. Exactly. I'm a Bret guy, but that is the entire story of the match -- these are the two best guys, and they are so evenly matched that they're incapable of beating each other even within an hour time limit.

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  149. Link? This is all garbage speculation. Vince the whole time booked it as 0-0 and sudden death.

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  150. Adam "Colorado" CurryMarch 22, 2015 at 11:00 PM

    I didn't forget, Hogan/Sting was absolutely horrible no matter what the ending was.

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  151. I actually like it. I know you bash the show, but I enjoyed it. Wish Muta wasn't jobbed out entirely though. But 3 of the matches were on the best of Starrcade dvd set.

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  152. Adam "Colorado" CurryMarch 22, 2015 at 11:05 PM

    Punk/Jericho was the only one of those 3 matches that was any good.

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  153. Adam "Colorado" CurryMarch 22, 2015 at 11:08 PM

    Last 20 minutes were *****. First 45 did suck.

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  154. I did love the Steiners vs Warriors match from Nitro. It's on one of the best of sets, I think Vol 2. Great match.

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  155. Once the headlocks are over its awesome

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  156. Agreed. It's fun and I personally like the concept and the scoring system. Never got why it would be hard to follow.

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  157. I agree that it was forced...it felt like this colossal effort to get Cena over as an elite worker but it just wound up being too slow and masturbatory for me. Though HBK cursing Cena out mid match for not selling the knee like it was 1996 again amused me.

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  158. Not only that, but the payoff of the stipulation made HHH look like a huge heel while Orton looked like a colossal bitch. Instead of controlling his rage, HHH snuck behind the ref's back, hit Orton with a sledgehammer, and won, like he did a bajillion times as a heel. Small wonder that got him booed.

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  159. The problem with both Punk/Jericho matches is that they were really tied down by the angles at first. Once they got going they were awesome, but the early portions held them back.

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  160. I don't think it sucked. It was dull as hell, though for a large chunk of it.

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  161. Eddie/Rey at WM 21

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  162. Not everything can be WM IX

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  163. Yeah Hennig was carrying quite a bit more weight by that point for sure -- he was definitely in peak condition as well between 1988 - 1991.

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