Thursday, April 30, 2015

RF Video Shoot Interview with Glacier

This was filmed in 2008

The interview was conducted by Rob Feinstein

It runs at one hour and fifty-four minutes long



Glacier starts the interview by saying he was a fan of wrestling growing up and would watch matches at the arena in Jacksonville, FL with his father and brother. He said Dusty was his hero growing up.



He started to do martial arts when he was 12 or 13 years old when he asked his dad if he could learn them after watching Bruce Lee movies. He talks about some of the types that he learned for a few minutes. Glacier also said that Eric Bischoff at one point pushed him to do some of the K1 stuff.



On how he got into wrestling, Glacier said a few of his college football teammates would go to the local wrestling tapings and one of his teammates, R.D. Swain, was with him and they got interviewed together and jokingly said their goals were to become the World Tag Team Champions. Local wrestler Fred Avery (a local wrestler who did a few jobs for WCW in the early 90's) asked them if they wanted to become wrestlers but they declined at first but eventually went to train in his backyard. Glacier said the ring Avery had was slanted and painted orange then they were hooked after that.



He talks about the training and said that Avery was insistent that they learn amateur-style wrestling and after about 5 months of training they got to have their first match. Glacier laughs about taking tehebumps saying he was youthful then and had so much adrenaline and excitement that he did not really think about taking them at the time.



When asked about his first match, Glacier said that he was basically trained as a tag team with his partner and they wrestled a tag team called "The Smurfs" who were both about 5'5.



Glacier wrestled for an Independent in Georgia called "Peach State Wrestling." He talks about being mentored by Ted Oates and Mr. Wrestling II. Glacier said that MWII would be at the arena 4 hours before the show with his mask on and would always maintain kayfabe at all times, even using masks on in the shower after the show.



Tommy Rich took a liking to him and one day called him up and said that he should be called "Sugar" Ray Lloyd as he worked for Southern States Wrestling and even got a few matches in WCW.



When asked if any guys tried to test him out in the ring, Glacier said that a few of them did and recalls one guy Steve Lawler tried and Glacier said he gave it back to him. Ted Allen also tested him out. Glacier said that at the time he was out of college and was clean-cut, looking like a total babyface. He didnt mind guys testing him out.



His first match in WCW was in 1989 against Butch Reed. He said Reed took care of him in the ring and wanted to see him again and thank him as Reed could have taken advantage of him then but did not. The next night he wrestled against the Great Muta as he dealt with Gary Hart, who put the match together. Glacier said that when he wrestled in WCW in the 90's he learned that Muta could actually speak English. He recalls being perplexed as to what Muta was doing before the match (making a concoction to use for his mist) then said that Hart gave a good word to the office about him.



He is asked about Eddie Gilbert as Glacier said he always gave him advice. Glacier then said that people were generally nice to him and always gave advice as Glacier then talks about how most guys gave him help and figures they did as he is easy to get along with.




Glacier goes back to talk about how he graduated with a Masters Degree in Education and taught and coached football for several years before getting his big break in WCW in the mid 1990's. Glacier tells everyone to pursue their dreams but do so realistically as you should get an education first.



On UWFI, Glacier said that most of it was a shoot, especially when you were on your feet compared to on the mat. He was thankful for the experience then talks about how the training was tough at the dojo. He wished UWFI would have lasted longer as they opened it up to everyone from Judo guys and boxers.



He talks about how he got back into WCW. Glacier said he joined Sting & Luger's gym and ended up meeting Diamond Dallas Page through Disco Inferno. He said that Disco came up with the idea for the Coach Buzz Stern character, something Glacier did a few times at various indy shows. He then said he was with DDP and wanted to add some martial arts stuff to the Stern character. DDP had no idea Glacier studied martial arts and when he found out, he suggested that he tell Bischoff about that as he was interested in that. Glacier met Bischoff, who wanted to make sure he knew what he was doing, and after a few hours he was offered a contract.



His friend who worked in special effects met with Bischoff and after that they came up with the Glacier gimmick. At first, there were going to be four characters: Mortis, Wrath, and then something for Ernest Miller. Glacier said Bischoff would call these secret meetings that took place at Glacier's friend's studio. Bischoff wanted them to be video game characters that came to life and wanted heavyweight guys to wrestle like cruiserweights. Glacier said he would go to arcades with Kanyon and pick up on what games the kids were playing and how they would speak so they could use that for their characters.



Originally, Bischoff wanted the Glacier character to be called "Cryonic" but Glacier did not want that and they settled on having that as the name of his finisher. Glacier also said that "Stone Cold" was one of the ten names listed that they had thought of and laughs about that.



Glacier had no idea what to expect about the character but knew Bischoff wanted it to be a huge deal. He would work out the character and entrance at the Power Plant and said that for some reason it was not clicking but credits DDP for telling him to create the history of the character. He also said the plan was for his finisher was a big spinning hook kick but no one wanted to take the move.



He talks about the vignettes and how they had someone else to the voiceover as his own voice was really "Southern" at the time.



When asked why his debut was delayed, Glacier said that Bischoff did not like the vignettes but did not find out why, which Glacier said was in typical WCW fashion. He then talked about how Bischoff called him in his office as Midway, the video game company that created Mortal Kombat, was suing over the character. Glacier suggested they change the costume as Bischoff did not want that as it was expensive so Glacier said they switch his tights to differ from the Sub Zero character and got rid of the helmet, which he hated.



Glacier talks about having heat in the locker room as he was perceived as being Bischoff's golden boy and learned that others in power hated the gimmick. Glacier said he never wanted any of that and just wanted to wrestle so he just kept quiet and stayed humble.



On his debut, he worked with Ray Traylor, who Glacier really respected. They worked on their match at the Power Plant before hand and thanks Traylor for making him look good and how he did him a favor. Glacier said he was scared to death out there as that character and talks about how he had then what was known as the Goldberg push. He also became friends with the referee, Brian Hillebrand, after that and thanks him a lot too.



When asked about how much his entrance cost, Glacier heard estimates ranging from $100,000-$500,000 from all sorts of guys and that Bischoff told him they had to fly three guys in each time he did the entrance. Glacier then talks about how you could not follow the entrance because it was so elaborate.



Originally, he was supposed to wrestle Mortis at Bash at the Beach in 1996 but was told at the last minute to not come down. He talks about how the nWo was the best and at the end the worst times in wrestling.



Glacier wishes that he was a heel at the beginning because the character was shoved down everyone's throat and the kneejerk reaction is to reject that.



On wrestling Mortis, Glacier said that they always clicked in the ring. He then talks about how he got pissed at Meltzer for giving their match at Uncensored *** but how he said it should have been good as they had five months to put the match together but after watching the match later on, he does agree with the rating.



Glacier calls James Vandenberg (James Mitchell) one of the most talented guys in wrestling and how he never stumbled over a promo. Glacier says he was known as "Vandy" then.



He recalls a match he had against Wrath in which Terry Taylor told them not to do a superplex but Wrath told Glacier to suplex him and how he would take the heat. Well, they did the move and backstage Taylor berated them but Wrath never came forward and when Glacier realized that he came forward and got yelled at by Taylor.



When asked if Wrath and Mortis having martial arts training would have helped things out, Glacier said that they could have done some different things but doenst necessarily think it would have done better.



About Ernest Miller coming into WCW, he was disliked at first because he was so cocky and arrogant but after that they warmed up to him. He then talks about meeting Ernest initially at an underground first club in Atlanta that he was brought to by Bischoff that cost $100 to get in and had coolers of beer everywhere.



Glacier talks about losing to Buff Bagwell and how at the time everyone was losing to the nWo and didnt mind returning a favor and putting over someone. He didnt care for Bagwell not selling his kicks but didn't see the writing on the wall at that point. Later on when he was not doing anything with the gimmick he saw the writing on the wall as when you are not relating to the fans you become stale.



On when he trashed the gimmick, Glacier said he was told to do so and promised they had better plans for him. He then said he couldnt believe he was naive enough to think that would happen.



About the Coach Buzz Stern character, he said he took from various coaches he had in his life. He wished he had a chance to run with the character a bit. He then said that he got released and got a meeting with Bischoff after that to show him some of the clips he shot with Luther Biggs in his coach character and gor rehired after that for a few hundred bucks less a week. Glacier tells young guys to not sit around and wait for the office to come up with something for you and be proactive.



He is asked about some of the major players in WCW. Glacier liked Hulk Hogan, saying he was nice to him. He always respected Bret Hart for hanging out with the boys in the locker room instead of using private rooms like Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. He does say that he got to know Kevin since leaving WCW and likes him a lot. He also likes Hall too.



Glacier got hurt wrestling Goldberg and had to get helped to the back then got operated on a few days later. He said in wrestling you are going to get hurt and that it was not Goldberg's fault that it happened.



After leaving WCW, he worked for Dusty Rhodes in Turnbuckle Championship Wrestling. He was the champion and wrestled against Barry Windham, who was sick and wanted Glacier to call the match in the ring. He loved how he got to wrestle guys like Larry Zbyzsko and Dave Taylor.



He went back to WCW after asking Terry Taylor what he had to do in order to get a spot on the roster again. Taylor asked him if he could be comedic with the Glacier character and actually think he was a superhero. Glacier said he paid for his own costume and went to the booking room before the show and hid in the closet, per the advice of Taylor. About ten minutes into the meeting, Taylor played a cassette of Glacier's music and then Glacier busted out of the door and cut a promo in character about how he was a superhero. He said that Ed Ferrara laughed so hard that he fell out of his chair and then when he promo was finished he left the room and went home. He was rehired shortly after that. Glacier then talks about how he also had a gimmick of being Lance Storm's older brother, as they look alike, but Vince Russo did not like the idea.



Glacier talks about the WWF showing interest and at the advice of Taylor, cut a promo as Buzz Stern introducing Glacier. Kevin Kelly called him up and asked who introduced him and found out it was him. Vince McMahon got wind that his dad was a state trooper and had an idea for him to be that as a character but Glacier said the money wasnt that great as they were the only game in town and he wanted a normal life at the time so he passed.



After wrestling he went back to teaching and helped Dusty run the wrestling school at Turnbuckle Wrestling.



He became an agent in TNA when Dusty was the head booker. At the time, Glacier was in Florida working on the Indiana Jones stunt show at Universal but got hurt. He liked the experience there.



On working as a stuntman, he talks about his first role was on "No Holds Barred" and recently got a role on "Burn Notice." He hopes to break into acting soon.



When asked about Chris Benoit, Glacier said he was close to him as was all the midcard WCW guys were at the time. He said its sad that all people will remember him for is the murder/suicide because he gave so much back to the wrestling business. He does believe that head trauma was a major factor in the tragedy and talks about how wrestlers can get into the mindset that they are indestructible athletes and if they are hurt they have to get better before the next match and believes that Benoit was one of those guys.



He tells a road story about when he was in WCW. He says that they finished World War 3 and it was snowing like crazy. He was with Kidman, Chris Jericho, Kanyon, and Sick Boy. James Vandenberg was with them but went to bed early. Jericho came up with an idea to scare Vanderberg, who was passed out drunk. They came into the room with huge snowballs and planned on Kanyon turning on the light so he knew who was doing it but the light never worked and they hit him so Vandenberg took the beer bottles and started throwing them. Glacier said that Vanderberg took everything in stride and never let things bother him. Vandenberg then brushed the snow off of the bed and went back to sleep.



Final Thoughts: I really liked this interview. The recap might not read like the most interesting thing in the world but Glacier came off as a great guy with a good head on his shoulders. He never had a bad word to say about anyone. He came across as a guy who loved everything he did and tries to make the best out of every situation.

He did express some frustration with how WCW was run at the time but was always proactive regarding his career, which is something I respect. He also had some good insight into the business as well.

I thought it was a fine interview but unless you are a fan of Glacier or interested in all things mid-90's WCW (well, this is the place for that) then you would enjoy this a lot. You do learn a lot about how the character was created here, which was cool.

Next week I will be reviewing the Matt Morgan shoot interview as he talks about being on "Tough Enough" to his times in the WWE and TNA and about his drug addiction as well.

You can purchase the DVD of this shoot for $20 by clicking on the link below

http://www.rfvideo.com/shootwithglacier.aspx

68 comments:

  1. Exactly the type of guy you'd like to be neighbors with. Crack open a couple beers over grilling meat and listen to road stories of mid-90s WCW.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Glacier was either first hour Nitro or "switch to RAW" material for me. It's good to know he's a humble guy who appreciated his time in the spotlight.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I just searched his Wikipedia and it does seem in indicate he disappeared for at least a year or so in between, so he wasn't really around all 3 years.

    ReplyDelete
  4. his early 1995 promos had great heat at the time, despite Keith's opinion... and his matches weren't bad until he was matched up with Clique guys every night who would intentionally tank the match... the one time they did it at IYH 4 they forgot that Vince was sitting at ringside it was the end (finally) of the Diesel title experiment and the Clique guys calling the shots besides Shawn since he was tight with Pat Patterson by then

    ReplyDelete
  5. Is the Kelly Olynk AVI expert trolling? If so, I like.

    ReplyDelete
  6. AverageJoeEverymanApril 30, 2015 at 11:06 AM

    "So . . . Glash. Can I call you Glash? Thanks Glash. Did anybody ever actually doubt El Dandy? Or was it just something that was not done?"

    ReplyDelete
  7. Of course he had a college degree, he was a dean!

    ReplyDelete
  8. Glacier also sucks at blocking out.

    ReplyDelete
  9. MaffewOfBotchamaniaApril 30, 2015 at 12:02 PM

    The return of Glacier in 2001 was one of the funniest things WCW ever did and it's a shame it wasn't seen by many.

    ReplyDelete
  10. It's actually Bruno Sundov, one of the worst players in NBA History

    ReplyDelete
  11. Yeah bam bam said in his shoot the clique made it difficult for shane, and made him hate it working there. Then again bam bam wasn't on their Christmas card list either, although they felt he, and rightfully so, was a talent. If anyone deserved to be a monster heel, and take the title for Hogan to get the superman style retain against all odds, adversity etc. It was bam bam.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I never got the Glacier, Mortis, Wrath gimmicks. They went from the 80s cheesy Dungeon of Doom to the realistic cool nWo and then they had suddenly the same cheesy 80s super hero video game characters which could have been cool in 1985 but not in 1996/97.

    ReplyDelete
  13. We were so close to Chilly McFreeze.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I was really, really fucking done after the Bray Wyatt ghost ending to Hell in a Cell and they got me back for Sting the next month and then again for the Rumble due to tradition.


    I haven't watched Raw or Smackdown in probably over a year, Main Event and NXT here and there, and about 3/4 of the PPVs for the last couple years and even the PPVs are only because the accessibility of them on the network.


    TNA really did lose me forever with the debut against Raw where they had the big red cage and Flair and Hardy debuted. I know it had a great Angle vs. Styles match buried in that two hour litterbox but it wasn't enough; TNA lost me for good with that show.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Watching wrestling in the like three months after Punk's death felt like that nauseous feeling when you're hung over and not sure if you're going to throw up all over or keep it together.

    That's the feeling I got *watching* wrestling. I can only imagine how it felt for guys who shared a locker room with him for years to go out and perform fake matches.

    ReplyDelete
  16. The way the HHH vs. Sting match played out was so different from the storyline. HHH acted scared shitless of Sting and flopped over scared to death when he even thought he was in the same room. In the actual match he's this old jabroni who HHH has absolutely no fear of.

    ReplyDelete
  17. They really blew it by having him hug Vince though.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Adam "Colorado" CurryApril 30, 2015 at 1:30 PM

    I'll occasionally watch Raw, but just to bullshit with you guys in the live thread and even then it's just background noise. I've grown to realise that I just hate "WWE Style", and the production and commentary is atrocious. ROH still hasn't recovered from the Cornette era and I'm not watching a company that has a homophobic bigot as world champ. I gave up on TNA a long time ago and don't get the channel their on anyway.


    Only wrestling I really watch anymore is Botchamania and the occasional WWE match I hear good things about.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I don't really remember the 'return' of glacier. Was he doing goofy shit like actually trying to throw ice blasts and whatnot? That would have been pretty funny.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Shane is a great babyface worker but a mediocre babyface promo. He's also a great heel promo but a run of the mill at the best heel worker. He probably wasn't ever going to make it in WWF as an ic champ level heel.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I wonder if he wouldn't have been far better served coming into WWF as a babyface because he's so much better in the ring playing that role IMO.

    ReplyDelete
  22. He was actually a very good to great babyface worker IMO.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Why would any wrestling fan watch those 3 hour raws? They are awful and 95% meaningless junk filler. Watch smackdown or the highlights of raw on YouTube.

    ReplyDelete
  24. What I want to know is, who looked at the catalog of shoot interviews at RF Video and wondered "WHERE IS MY GLACIER SHOOT?"

    ReplyDelete
  25. Bischoff really fell ass backwards into the nwo, huh?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Seems like a pretty agreeable guy, no wonder he didn't get far.

    ReplyDelete
  27. I remember him selling the gimmick to Kaz Kayashi and then doing the Coach Buzz Stern bit with Luther Biggs for a while, but I also don't remember Glacier returning as a comedy character. To be fair, there is much I have forgotten about WCW 1999 onwards.

    ReplyDelete
  28. People act like the nWo is the only reason he was successful. Wasn't he regularly beating Vince well before the nWo like for the entire year before they created the nWo? On top of that he still had the cruiserweights, he still had the Horsemen which he was pushing heavily again before the nWo. On top of that Vince fell ass backwards into Austin as well didn't he? And the Rock? Hell his dad fired Hulk Hogan and Verne couldn't figure out what exactly to do with him either. Nearly every big star in pro wrestling was an accident so I'm not sure why its a negative thing if he did fall into it? He had success doing multiple things. The counter programming, giving away results, completely different production look, unique venues, different in ring product, etc. I'm not sure where the narrative that Bischoff was and would have been nothing without the nWo came from.

    ReplyDelete
  29. You know what stupid comedy bit I always laughed at? When the Dragons would be getting ready to attack Ernest Miller and the kung fu music would start playing and he'd stop and look around like he could hear it. Stupid but funny.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I preferred Miller finally wising up and when Scott Steiner would enter his office, the Cat would pre-emptively shove everything off his desk.

    ReplyDelete
  31. That's a mighty defense of Eric.

    Just gut reaction that he allegedly spent hundreds of thousands "developing" a Mortal Kombat rip off where the lead guy hung around arcades to get hip to the young person lingo.

    Vince is quickly into tottering old man territory, but his track record is streets ahead of Eric's by a long shot.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Really nice guy from my hometown. Before he became Glacier, he wrestled a few "All-Star Wrestling" shows with guys who were slumming it (Jake Roberts) and future stars (RVD). I won a raffle to have dinner with a competitor, and Jake was chosen first of course and I ended up with Ray. Most likely a far better person to have Pizza Hut with in those days.

    He organized a charity show for a local kid years later with actual WCW talent. We got to see a surprise appearance by Goldberg, who came out and did the jackhammer to big Reese.

    Great guy and it was fun to be in the minority that were Glacier fans.

    ReplyDelete
  33. I just remember the laughing.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I met Bret Hart once.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Diesel winning the title broke me in '94. I came back in 97 and stayed til 02. I was broken again when the title was being passed around every week. HHH, then Hogan, then Taker. I was broken after that. Stayed away until the pipe-bomb promo. Still slogging along since 2011.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Me 2 I met him in April 98

    ReplyDelete
  37. kind of reminds me of someone like a Lenny Cooke for you hardcore b-ball fans. You hear all about this dude on the street and the hype becomes the downfall. He's expected to be great from jump and not allowed to grow into it. Also, it never helped that he thought he was bigger than he really was.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Vince is getting to Verne Gagne 1980s mindset

    ReplyDelete
  39. I vaguely remember this guy. If it's the same guy I'm thinking of, he played PG, declared out of HS and then didn't even get drafted, and really, never heard from again. I remember someone saying he was the guy that could see what was happening on the floor before it happened...again, if it's the same guy.

    ReplyDelete
  40. That's very true. All those deaths - tragic as they were - did open a LOT of eyes, I think especially to those young wrestlers breaking into the business.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Yeah, almost too nice for his own good.

    ReplyDelete
  42. He didn't play pg but the rest sounds right. He was the #1 rated guy until LeBron showed up and took his shine.

    ReplyDelete
  43. This is the kind of stuff that breaks up the monotony. It's filler but at least it's fun.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I notice a good bit of guys teach between work. I've always wondered how that worked. Like, is there some kid always asking you wrestling questions or are people needling you because you wrestle on the side?!

    ReplyDelete
  45. "IT'S FAKE!! YOU KNOW IT'S FAKE!!" I always imagine they get this.

    ReplyDelete
  46. The Benoit incident had my fandom on the ropes, and the asinine chicanery of the PG-era (guests hosts, etc) nearly delivered the knockout blow.

    My interest in the current product is only kept alive due to the likes of Paul Heyman, Brock Lesnar, Seth Rollins, Bray Wyatt and the occasional great match or angle that springs up once every great while.

    But regardless of whether I continue to stick with the current product(s), I will always be a lifelong old school NWA, WCCW, Mid-South / UWF and " Monday Night Wars"-era fan.

    ReplyDelete
  47. It just seems teaching would be the worst job for a wrestler to have. I can imagine it never ending. New school year. new a$$holes.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Glacier said it is the best because you have weekends and the Summer's off

    ReplyDelete
  49. Makes a lot of sense, actually. Not to mention that tons of holidays they get.

    ReplyDelete
  50. OMG Me 2. Outside of UK MTV studios in London, I think it was around 2000 after he retired and I guess was there plugging a WCW UK tour.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Yeah because Vince never blew hundreds of thousands of dollars on stupid gimmicks. I don't agree that Vince is miles ahead of Eric. If you look at the current product for better or for worse quite a bit of it was influenced or forced on them by Eric. I'm not saying Eric isn't without fault he is for sure and the same things that made him successful eventually led to his failure.


    However the original statement was that Eric fell backwards into the nWo implying that if it were not for the nWo Eric wouldn't have been successful. When the truth is he was already beating Vince half of the time without the nWo in the ratings. He brought in the cruiserweights, Nitro had better production (in my opinion atleast) than RAW in that time period. I'm not saying Eric is better than Vince or vice versa I'm simply saying Eric contributed a LOT to modernizing the product for the time and he did a lot more than "nWo lulz".

    ReplyDelete
  52. On the scale of "average heels overpushed as company centerpieces," it goes HHH, Jarrett and then Douglas. Then you dig for a mile or so and there's Justin Credible.

    ReplyDelete
  53. I met Owen when I was 17

    ReplyDelete
  54. Please review the current product once in a while, these writers suck

    ReplyDelete
  55. Even though all the deaths over the years from Rick McGraw to Eddie Guerrero, this one hit hard. That's when wrestling got too 'real' for me.

    ReplyDelete
  56. None of the Kliq were bad, even X-Pac deserves a ton of respect for basically creating the mold for a lot of the indy guys that have had success in WWE since.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Scale as in most pronounced or least pronounced?

    ReplyDelete
  58. I agree wholeheartedly. The gimmick shouldn't have been that tough to make it work.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I met him in November 2008. He was surprised when I had him sign the Canadian version of the book when they were doing a book signing for the us version.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Glacier may not have worked in real life but his character was tough to beat in WCW/NWO World Tour!

    ReplyDelete
  61. I think it was relegated to only being on Thunder and Saturday Night, which I never watched.

    I do remember them doing the return promos and the announcers just shat all over it and asking why they we're bringing Glacier back. Reminds me of the current WWE announcers.

    ReplyDelete
  62. But man, Trips really was on fire I'll say from the match with Vince (royal rumble with Jack if you wanna go later) to the tag match where he got hurt. I like Jarrett, but he's a midcard guy who played a top guy. Douglas is just wack.

    ReplyDelete
  63. This happened?

    DAMN!

    ReplyDelete
  64. It goes to sports and in particular basketball

    "Why does Kobe take so many shots? Selfish prick, LOL".

    Why wouldn't your best player take the most shots?

    ReplyDelete
  65. Scotsman, I think.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Hi I played video games with Big Bossman

    ReplyDelete
  67. In my defence, while I liked your stuff, I was never a big fan. I only heard about the going dark thing through other sources, I think.

    ReplyDelete