Friday, April 10, 2015

Wrestlemania III Attendance, also Randy Orton

Hi Scott,

I e-mailed you a few weeks ago with an article claiming that the 93,000 for Wrestlemania 3 was actually a legitimate number and was just wondering what your take on it was. It was during the week before Wrestlemania, so I understand if you were too busy to answer (or if you didn't want to dignify an uproxx article with a response, which is also understandable).

I have a question regarding Randy Orton that's been bugging me for awhile, though. In every shoot interview that Bayless has posted where the wrestlers are asked about him, everyone has praised Orton to high heaven, either as a joy to see him wrestle or by those who have faced him as the perfect person to wrestle against. I know he's not shitting in *everybody's* bag, but why the universal praise? Is it because he's never hurt anyone in the ring?

Thanks,

Vince

​Zane Breslov, the actual promoter of the show, has gone on record saying that there were only 78,000 people in the building.  I have no idea why this 93,000 thing persists even though we know they've literally lied about the Wrestlemania attendance every year for the past two decades.  Is it because ​people think that one year was when they were telling the truth?  

As for Orton, wrestlers have different standards as far as what they like than fans do, obviously.  

222 comments:

  1. It was rumored that Zane Bresloff was under WCW payroll when he said that statement to Meltzer.

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  2. Burt Macklin, Man Without FearApril 10, 2015 at 8:41 AM

    Because wrestlers are smart and can recognize GREATNESS when they see it............ \_0___/

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  3. If I'm a wrestler and I keep getting checks wrestling guys who keep me safe, I'm in. Wrestlers love Kane too because he's said to be safe. I'd view it as my job to get my heat, and avoiding idiots like Ryback wouldn't be bad.

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  4. The reason the 93k persists is that those who know the silverdome capacity for football and other events think it could be a legit figure, particularly with floor seats

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  5. So? WCW didn't even exist until 4 years after that show. Why would he care about lying at that point?

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  6. To be fair, even at my most bored with him, I've always thought Orton was *good*, just predictable and stale.

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  7. Didn't the Pope get near that number when he visited a few months after 3?

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  8. Orton is always over, has a great finisher, works safe, makes other guys look good, and doesn't mind doing the job. Wrestlers generally have different opinions than fans do - we loved Vader killing guys but other wrestlers hid under tables so they wouldn't be on the booking sheet against him.

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  9. The number can't be 78 because the Silverdome sat 80k. Unless 78k was the paid number or there were thousands of empty seats no one saw.

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  10. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 8:59 AM

    Whether it's 78k or 93k, it was a huge number for pro-wrestling. It's always been surprising to me that they didn't book a bigger arena for WM4 after doing that big attendance figure. Not that they were going to replicate the interest they had for Hogan-Andre, but something bigger than Trump Plaza seemed appropriate. Yet they didn't go back to the huge stadium show for a long time. Maybe they had the Trump building booked way in advance? Just doesn't seem very Vince-like to go from a 70k+ attendance to a much smaller house again (18k or so).

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  11. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 8:59 AM

    The Pope didn't tear all the muscles in his back slamming a 1,000 pound giant though, brother

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  12. Donald Trump gave Vince a small fortune to host WM there. And then he gave him an even bigger fortune to do it again for WM V.

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  13. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 9:01 AM

    Simple enough. Makes sense. I'm glad they went back to a larger house for Hogan-Warrior in 1990 though. That match needed the "big venue" feel

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  14. Slaughter-Hogan would have been epic at the Coliseum. Damn those terrorist threats, amirite?

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  15. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 9:04 AM

    I don't really remember, but in 1990 was it ever a big "thing" that the Hart Foundation were Canadian? It just seems like they could have been used in a more meaningful way at Wrestlemania 6, the first Mania in Canada. Maybe a blow-away classic opener with the Rockers or something? Instead, you get a 19 second squash against the Bolsheviks from the biggest Canadian stars on the card.

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  16. I never even heard of Canada until Bret won the IC title and was announced as being from there.

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  17. The wrestlers know if they don't say nice things about Orton they will have a surprise in their bag.

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  18. Virgil's Gimmick TableApril 10, 2015 at 9:16 AM

    Zane Breslov sounds like an NXT name.

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  19. When he is moved up does he become Zane or Breslov?

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  20. just Breslov

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  21. Its Samoa Joe, isn't it?

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  22. Though I don't think 93,000 is legit, the Silverdome sat 80,000 for football, which means it would sit a few thousand more for wrestling. All footage of WrestleMania 3 shows the place packed to the gills with no tarped off/empty sections. For example:
    http://www.wwe.com/f/photo/image/2014/03/SPWM1114001R.jpg

    It may not have been 93,000, but it was certainly more than 78,000 simply based on the football numbers.

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  23. Orton is sort of a modern day Bret Hart is that he has very safe and formula driven matches. Hart was way better on the mic and had an extra gear for big matches that Randy lacks however. I also find Orton mic skills to just be terrible, I don't believe a word the guy says.

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  24. Vince: "Fuck You"

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  25. Re: Orton - wrestlers want to stay healthy, get home in one piece, and have good matches. Orton, from what I can gather, doesn't injure his opponents and generally tends to put on good matches. Nobody wants to be in the ring with guys that constantly stiff you and are sloppy.

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  26. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 9:23 AM

    If Hogan was a "REAL American" he would have called out the "Terrorists" to face him at Mania too!

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  27. actually a wrestling event at the Colesium would have been awesome for real.

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  28. Meanwhile Summerslam 1992 at Wembley Stadium, London had a legitimate (as far as I know) attendance record of over 80,000 people and it's rarely ever mentioned by WWE. Go figure.

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  29. I'm really surprised they haven't been back for Summerslam. I'm pretty sure if they threw Regal vs. Barrett or somehow featured one of the British guys they could come close to that number. Of course they could dig up Davey Boy and Bret could reenact their Weekend At Bernie's match.

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  30. Way better on the mic? This is Bret Hart we're talking about?

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  31. Orton's promos can be a bit dull, but otherwise I've never gotten the dislike for him. I find most of his matches to be thoroughly watchable, plus he's got a rep as being safe and reliable so that's going to be pretty important to the people he's working with.

    As far as shitting in bags goes, anyone that he does that to is probably disliked by everyone else too, but he's the only one crude enough to do something dumb like that. I've never shit in anyone's bag, but I've sure known people that I would find it funny if someone else did it to them.

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  32. How do we know Zane wasn't lying?

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  33. How old is that shitting in somebody's bag story? 10 years old?

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  34. He at least put some passion into his promos particularly when he was heel. Orton sounds like a robot who barely memorized his script. I don't as a viewer feel that anything that comes out of Randy's mouth is something he really feels or would say in real life. Bret wasn't the best but at least I believed him.

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  35. Wait, subject line... Are you telling me that 78,000 people at the Superdome are ALSO Randy Orton?!


    *head explodes.*

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  36. I actually believe the WWE on this, it might have been 78K paid, but there's definitely alot more than that in the stadium that night.

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  37. Who gets credit for that draw? Warrior and Savage? Bret and Bulldog? Or is it just the WWE had never done a European ppv for their Big Four?

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  38. Probably a combination of all three, though clearly Bulldog was a huge draw judging by the crowd reaction.

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  39. I don't understand how one person says that it was 78k and that is the honest truth.

    I believe the WWE on this one too. As others have pointed out, if you compare photographs and how much the stadium held for football, there has to be more than 78k there.

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  40. OK maybe Bret hart wasn't the best on the mic, but he's light years better and more interesting than Randy Orton ever was or will be. Orton's basically comparable to Jeff Jarrett - competent wrestler that's boring as hell and can't connect with an audience

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  41. Back when Vince used to use hometown favourites to his advantage instead of burying guys in their home country because lulz.

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  42. And his opponents know they're guaranteed to be the most interesting guy in the match when the face him

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  43. Worst_in_the_WorldApril 10, 2015 at 9:51 AM

    Yeah probably, maybe like 2006 or so.

    Though shitting in a co-worker's bag is something that should stay with you for a long time.

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  44. The business is working people and those who live the business can't stop trying to work people. See: McMahon, Vince and Piper, Rowdy Roddy.

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  45. Randy Orton is horrible.

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  46. 78,000 Randy Orton's could fill a lot of bags!

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  47. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonApril 10, 2015 at 9:54 AM

    Hi Vince!!!

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  48. Even now? I couldn't stand him for the longest time but he seems freshly invigorated these years

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  49. Not in this case because he didn't actually it. Rochelle Loewen, a woman who had a brief stint as a Diva, confirmed it was her who had the run-in with Orton and that he emptied a bunch of the girls tanning lotions into her expensive bag, ruining it. She also said Vince personally called to apologize, and she compensated for the damage.

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  50. Either way that's a hell of a big crowd. Don't care about the exact number.

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  51. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonApril 10, 2015 at 9:56 AM

    Which story sounds like it would be more fun to tell?

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  52. Oh, I know. It's just that people still believe the shitting in the bag one is the real version of the story..

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  53. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonApril 10, 2015 at 9:58 AM

    Yep. It's the same way people still tell the "someone shitted in Jerry Lawler's crown" story.

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  54. That one is real as far as I know. I think it was Steve Keirn who everyone says did it.

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  55. \_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/\_0___/

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  56. Didn't Road Dogg or someone Road-Dogg-adjacent actually admit to shitting in one of the divas' bags?

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  57. That happened per Paul Bearer, and it was Steve Keirn.

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  58. The kliq filled lawyers crown with their poo during a rumble. Source: shoot interview w/ michaels or nash

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  59. Regardless of how boring Orton can be too fans, the guy is really/smooth clean in the ring

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  60. Xpac shit in sables bag

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  61. I'm not a fan either. Very boring and predictable in the ring. One of my least favorite promos ever. I think he works best in a tag team situation or as part of a stable. I wish Batista would come back to tag up with him.

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  62. Why can't the wrestlers like wrestling cool guys like 3 Count?

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  63. Gorilla: "Look at Mr Perfect go flying there."
    Jesse: "He flew perfectly, didn't he?"
    Gorilla: "Yeah, he flew perfectly is right!"

    From the 89 Rumble match.

    I miss the charming commentary of yesteryear so much sometimes.

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  64. The Love-Matic Grampa!April 10, 2015 at 10:15 AM

    Orton is a highly competent professional wrestler and I'm not surprised that his colleagues rate him highly. I just don't care for him personally and find his act extremely tedious.

    And I'm sure the real number is somewhere between the official one from WWE and the one most believe.

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  65. It holds 80,000. So even if the stands are legit all filled, no way there is 13,000 people able to stand on the floor. Though I agree it is hard to see it as only 78,000 when the stands are legit filled. At worst you have 78,000 plus whatever else is on the floor so you are at least somewhere in the 80's for total attendance.

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  66. Right. He's an idiot. There's reasons to believe both but Zane Breslov isn't one of them.

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  67. "A hard hitter in his day was the British Bulldog, Brain"

    "Hard hitter? I'd say he's flat-out stiff!"

    "Will you be serious?!!"

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  68. I enjoyed your comment until you added the stupid and played out "amiright" at the end

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  69. If you take 80,000 in stands, add another 6 or 7K on the field, then add in rest employees, security, concession workers, etc then you could get close to 93k

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  70. More on Orton:


    - One of the worst worked punches in the business


    - Everytime he calls Triple H "Hunter" I change the channel.

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  71. Um, "always over"?

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  72. He split Cody Rhodes' head open and may have caused Big Show's shoulder to separate so he can't be that safe. Probably just has a light touch. I can't imagine why anyone would be glad to wrestle a no selling offense hog though.

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  73. I think he's best when he's off TV and not being booked as part of the product

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  74. I don't see why the time zone thing would be a big issue. Start the normal show at 7pm UK time and promote the crap out of the fact that Wrestlemania/Summerslam/whatever will be a "special afternoon start" of 2pm on the U.S. East Coast (or a special morning 11am start on the West Coast). People are used to partying all afternoon on a Sunday thanks to football anyway, so this should be no different.

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  75. Hogan counts Andre as 6,000 people when asked.

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  76. If by "always" you mean "never" then I agree

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  77. Another hilarious thing, is we're all spelling Zane Bresloff's name with a V.

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  78. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarApril 10, 2015 at 10:50 AM

    I've lost track - is "How many people were REALLY at Wrestlemanis III?" one of the memes like rebooking the Invasion and whether Montreal was a work? Is it in that pantheon?

    I can't believe 78,000 is the real number, given the "sea of humanity" pictured at the show. It always seemed like there are a number of VKM bashers who cling to anything that proves him as a liar.

    He may be lying, I won't deny that, but if be shocked if the number wasn't closer to 93,973 than it was 78,000.

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  79. Could it be that only 78,000 tickets were sold and the rest were comps?

    Either way, it HAS to be more than 78,000 because the Silverdome held 80k for football and the building held a lot more for wrestling.

    Hell, Super Bowl 16 at the Silverdome had 81k. Obviously there were no seats on the floor there.

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  80. not as likely to do that in August though in nice weather.

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  81. With the live crowds, he's just about always been pretty over.

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  82. The PPV and closed circuit was blacked out for the state of Michigan for WM 3 if I recall. Seeing the crowd in the stadium and the floor, I think you probably had lots of comps like WM 8 did and Royal Rumble 97. I think attendance was 90,000+ and paid was closer to 78,0000.

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  83. There isn't pockets of empty seats at WM III, which makes me think there's over 81K there

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  84. i have despised him since Day 1. He has zero personality, has had too many second chances, and he's no Edge, Cena, Punk, or Lesnar.

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  85. Orton's smooth as hell, rarely has bad matches and seems to be really safe. I can understand why he's so praised by his co-workers. Plus, while I don't subscribe to the "only the professionals understand the business" belief spouted by lots of wrestlers and some fans, I'd imagine actual wrestlers are better judges of actual talent (rather than more subjective entertainment value) than we are.

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  86. Exactly. This isn't like a modern Mania where places are tarped off because of a huge entrance, or some sections are closed off. Every single section has people in it, and you don't see blocks or even rows of empty seats in any of the photos or footage.

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  87. Problem with that event was that it was taped a day before the PPV. Even pre-Internet days, I'm sure the results on IRC did not help.

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  88. They can pull a Rumble in the Jungle where they had the fight start in the wee hours of the morning in Zaire

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  89. "Facts" about Hogan/Andre as told by Hulk Hogan:

    - When he landed on top of me, Andre farted. It was brutal, believe me.

    - Andre weighed about 700 pounds. Maybe 800, 900 pounds.

    - I pressed Andre the Giant over my head.

    - He died shortly after ...

    - We took Andre the Giant, God rest his soul (implying that he killed Andre).

    - Andre got drunk before the match and kept saying --don't worry.

    - I didn't know the finish of the match, in spite that everything I wrote on a legal tablet got to Andre.

    - I ripped the muscles in my back and arms slamming André. Might have even lost some hair.

    - 700 pounds, brother. Or maybe he weighed more like 650.

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  90. You're 100% right about the blackout

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  91. "I'd imagine actual wrestlers are better judges of actual talent (rather than more subjective entertainment value) than we are."

    How dare you! I've never taken a bump, trained, or even been inside a wrestling ring, but from my mother's basement clutching my bowl of mayo I assure you I know who is a safe worker and who isn't!

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  92. Was this before or after he tried out for Metallica?

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  93. Super Bowl XVI had 81,270 fans WITH a football field in the middle of the stadium. There's no way they only had 78,000 people there

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  94. "But Meltzer said there was only 78,000 people there" - smarks for the past 25 years

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  95. Plus wwe network makes start times meaningless

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  96. He obviously counted all 78,000 people one by one.

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  97. #Sorrynotsorry

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  98. NOBODY in wrestling sandbags like Randy Orton. The job he did to Reigns was a glorious piece of dickery. The Ace had to be proud.

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  99. Meltzer said he believed it was 93,173 until he talked to Zane. I cannot fathom how anybody could look at a picture from WM III and think there's less people there than at SB XVI.

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  100. You know, it's not as if WWE vigorously defends the 93K number, it's simply what they say it is. Anyone who asks "why would they lie?"... well, you must be new to wrestling to ask that. They've lied about the attendance of literally every other WrestleMania.

    Here's a lengthy Meltzer interview which discusses the attendance and what Zane Breslov told him:

    https://bostongardenbalcony.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/transcript-of-my-wrestlemania-iii-interview-with-the-observers-dave-meltzer/

    Never before or since had the mainstream media picked up the attendance of a wrestling show to the extent they did for WrestleMania III, and reported it far and wide as the (then) all-time indoor attendance record. I think that's the reason WWE--to this day--continues to report the number with a straight face. Whatever the real attendance was, that number is written on a piece of paper and locked away in a vault. It's basically irrelevant, because they filled the Silverdome for that show: a feat thought unimaginable up to that point. But it seems pretty clear that the WWF--knowing they were likely going to draw the biggest wrestling crowd of all time--wanted to announce it as a record. So they made up a number. Everyone can argue if it was 78,000 paid, that the seating capacity was 80,000, was any of the crowd papered, and how much you add for event staff and such... but at the end of the day all evidence points to WWF/E simply lying at the time to be credited with the record, and maintaining the lie nearly 30 years later simply because it's one of the biggest and most important lies the company ever told.

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  101. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:23 AM

    Dudes worked with the Road Warriors and Steiner bros. all the time.

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  102. Virgil's Gimmick TableApril 10, 2015 at 11:25 AM

    Breslov. Evil foreign heel replacement of Rusev.

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  103. Why not? If Zane being on the WCW payroll is true, we're talking about the payroll of a company who gave away Raw results on a regular basis just to fuck with WWF and make themselves look better. Once the 78,000 rumor/truth is planted, it could grow and grow. And it has. People are still talking about it NOW.

    Plus wasn't it only a year later when WCW existed, at least from the point of view of Turner's ownership .

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  104. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:28 AM

    In that case, I really do think it's "the brand" that drew. England didn't get WWF ppvs, so I think that show draws well regardless. It did that huge gate without Hogan, Flair, or Piper on the card. Warrior-Macho was a legit big match, plus Bulldog and Bret were big stars there. I do think it was more "WWF PPV" that sold it though

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  105. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:29 AM

    Build Sheamus as a big Brit-bashing IRA sleazeball for Bad News Barrett.

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  106. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:30 AM

    Did that "Collision in Korea" WCW ppv really draw 150,000 people each day?

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  107. Orton showed a little more fire at Wrestlemania 31 than he has in the past. I don't know if it's because he liked working with Rollins or is happy to be working as a face again or just because it was Wrestlemania but I thought he brought his 'A' game for that match.

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  108. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:32 AM

    Question: Most popular tag team during a given period? Has to be Road Warriors in NWA right?

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  109. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:32 AM

    Probably knew he is going to headline at least "Extreme Rules" with Rollins too and wanted to cement that

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  110. Assuming he knew Rollins was going to win the title. Which apparently Rollins didn't even know until mid-way through the show.

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  111. Well... 150,000 on day one, 190,000 day two. However "draw" is a misleading term as the people were forced to attend by the North Korean government. It was also the government that provided those figures, so there's no telling how accurate they were. But it was likely well in excess of 100,000 each day.

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  112. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:34 AM

    lol. Vince wishes he could wield that kind of power, Pal!

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  113. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:35 AM

    Yeah, good point. At the very least, he probably knew he and Seth would work a longer program together. Even if the title part came later

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  114. I've always liked Orton more than most here, but he's one of those weird dichotomy guys where he's a more interesting character as a heel but a way better wrestler as a face.

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  115. Skinner does more than fight alligators.

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  116. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:37 AM

    I know WWE has no interest in Daniel Bryan being anything special, but with Rollins their heel champion now, they should probably consider heating him back up. Seth can work PPV main events with Orton and Cena, but I don't know that the other upper-level faces (Ziggler, Ryback, Ambrose I guess?) are at that level. Bryan could at least help them get through MITB and Battleground before Lesnar presumably returns for SummerSlam

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  117. Meltzer, the attendance expert, claims it was about 160K total for both days.

    I'm sure his North Korean sources were strong.

    And yeah the same government that claims Kim Jong Il shot a 38-under par his first time golfing. So yeah they can occasionally stretch the truth.

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  118. The Silverdome also reports the 93k number. I'm not sure why we take Meltzer's word over the Silverdome itself.

    As Jeremy Reinhart and I pointed out below, Super Bowl 16 in the same venue drew 81k, and that was with a football field. Mania 3 had thousands of seats on the floor. It might not be 93k, but there's no way it's 78k.

    This quote from the Meltzer interview kills it for me: "For a football game, you actually can get more people for a football
    game than you can for a WrestleMania, than if you have a Final Four or
    something like that at some of these indoor stadiums, where you don’t
    have the big screens or anything"

    That might be true for Manias in the past decade, but there WAS no big screen, stage, set-up or signs at Mania 3. They used the ENTIRE building: http://www.wwe.com/f/photo/image/2014/03/SPWM1114001R.jpg

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  119. I think they "knew", it was just a matter of Vince giving last minute confirmation of *exactly* what & how it would all go down. The fact they had Orton go over Rollins tells me that Rollins getting the belt was the conclusion going in, and I can't imagine Rollins not knowing that.

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  120. You're assuming a lot out of the same people that will re-write a three-hour show at noon on the day of the show

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  121. One of my friends has always said Orton's got great facial expressions and selling ability.

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  122. New Age Outlaws in late '98/early '99

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  123. Fat, Ugly Inner-City SweathogApril 10, 2015 at 11:43 AM

    Ooh. Good call.

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  124. Photo of the Silverdome for Super Bowl XVI (1982). Announced attendance 81,270:
    https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8157/7121975205_d52732a0e3_h.jpg

    Photo of the Silverdome for WrestleMania III (1987). Announced attendance 93,173. "Real attendance" 78,000:
    https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8157/7121975205_d52732a0e3_h.jpg

    There is absolutely more people in that building for Mania III. Even if it's not 93k, it's a hell of a lot more than 81k.

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  125. I'm sure it was a pretty tense stretch of time for Rollins following his match. That's why I say Seth being told during the Rock segment was confirmation, not notification. But hell--who knows what Vince might have been working over in that crazy squirrel brain of his. He might have seriously considered just having Reigns win right up to the last hour. The guy who had the easiest time was Brock, because he just had to go out there, be awesome, and collect a duffel bag full of wampum.

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  126. Orton's awesome. He doesn't hurt his opponent he has great timing and can work as a heel or a face in a match just fine. He doesn't seem spectacular or special because he's mastered the "WWE style" that they want EVERYONE to use so his skills get diluted and he seems average at times. If they didn't make everyone work the same type of match all the time he'd stand out more.

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  127. I still say it's 78k paid with 15k comps. If you look at the photos there's NO way there's only 78k.

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  128. Orton wrestles an incredibly smooth, yet crisp match. He's good for *** against just about everybody.

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  129. "I'm sure his North Korean sources were strong."

    Ha! As I've detailed in this thread, I don't trust Meltzer on his Mania 3 figure. I absolutely would not trust anyone's word on how many people were at an event in North Korea. You'd never find out the right answer.

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  130. My own guess is somewhere around 85,000-87,000. The problem for the WWF was that both the Rolling Stones and the Pope were on the near horizon, and the promoters knew that those both had a legit shot at hitting 90,000. So even though they would have legit hit the indoor attendance record, there was a chance of them losing it quickly. So they created a fake number that looked like it could be legit, but one not likely to be surpassed soon.

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  131. You have to wrestle Orton in person to appreciate his wrestling ability

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  132. Unless Rodzilla was there. Then you could ask him.

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  133. They made up the 93 number weeks before!! They've lied every year! Give up man.

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  134. The actual event promoter sent him the receipts for the gate! The guy in charge sent him the Facts!

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  135. The Silverdome reports 93,000 because that's the figure the promoters of the event provided them. They didn't have people on staff there to independently verify the attendance. It's not as if anyone was under oath. If the promoter tells the venue they put (x) people in their facility, that's what they go along with. They're not going to publicly dispute a figure and turn away potential event promoters.

    As for the Meltzer quote about football drawing more than WrestleMania, he was referring to the Manias of recent years where they announced stadium records. He wasn't talking about the Silverdome.

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  136. You're simply wrong on this one, man. All the documented pictures show it was more than the 82 super bowl which had 82K. Is that number doctored too? You give up. Please. Meltzer is a gullible dude.

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  137. It's the reason why they didn't hire him, he wouldn't shut the fuck about it

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  138. But there also aren't 13,000 people in that infield. Maybe half that. You take seating for 80,000, maybe 6000-7000 on the field, add in every employee in the building and parking lot, everyone walking by for a mile radius, and you still have a hard time just hitting 90,000.

    It don't know if Bresloff's claim (backed by paperwork of some sort) counted just tickets sold, or actual turnstile/hand-clicked counts. Meltzer offhand mentions the WWF told him there were 2300 comps. But the picture itself gives you the best guesstimate. Yes, it's more than 80,000... but "attendance" doesn't count every person in the building, it counts spectators, and the pictures come up several thousand short of 93,000.

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  139. Look at the photos and tell me how did the Super Bowl draw more than 78k with less seats.

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  140. Look at the photos and tell me how did the Super Bowl draw more than 78k with less seats

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  141. The WWF itself told Meltzer there were 2300 comps. It's the only figure they ever officially released to him.

    Business was different then compared to the 90's and beyond. They sold literally every ticket they could in filling that building. They didn't need to and wouldn't be looking to simply paper it to fill it. As Meltzer says, if the stadium would have held 100,000 people they probably would have sold that many tickets.

    People think Meltzer is bashing the WWF when he reported the 78,000 figure. He's not. He's simply relating what the actual promoter of the event told him. Is it so easy to accuse Bresloff & Meltzer of lying, yet not believe the WWF was lying with their number?

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  142. ... or appreciate the frying pan-sized shits he leaves in gym bags.

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  143. Agree. Who gives a shit how many fans were there as we can all see there was a shitload of them and it was a great show.

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  144. That's fine, but it's closer to 93 than 78.

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  145. Gotta remember this eleven months from now, but we should really try to predict what the announced attendance is. Make a game/contest out of it.

    If the building can legitimately hold 105,000 or whatever, an announced figure of, say, 125k seems likely, no?

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  146. The Rock and Roll have a serious claim themselves.

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  147. Either them or the R&R Express.

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  148. SEE A DOCTOR, PAL!!! ...not that I'd offer insurance or anything, "independent contractor" whatalegalmaneuver!!!

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  149. I agree. I think Bresloff is wrong, and Meltzer had reported that incorrect number, but I don't believe either has done so for ill purposes. If you read the article I linked, Meltzer notes this all came about because of a piece on TV with Hogan discussing the figure. Bresloff was friends with Hogan, who was under contract to WCW at the time. Even if you believe Bresloff was under contract to WCW as well, would he lie about this just to take a poke at the WWF while contradicting his friend and fellow WCW employee?

    It's possible that whatever paperwork that Bresloff had to back this up was simply inaccurate in some way. Perhaps it reflects the tickets sold prior to them releasing additional tickets once they had set up the ring and entry paths. Perhaps it was tickets presold and not counting tickets sold on the day of the show. In any event that 78,000 figure, Bresloff's recollection, and his documentary evidence might all be factual, just not completely accurate to the final total. What is more pertinent is his assertion that the 93,000 figure was made up. While he doesn't seem to be able to 100% back that up, there's also no reason to believe he's lying. He was the promoter, and he says they & the WWF made up that figure. And the best evidence--looking at the event itself--seems to put the real number somewhere in between.

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  150. A lot of wrestlers (including Randy Orton himself) have also praised Billy Gunn so yeah obviously wrestlers do have different standards of workrate than the masses.

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  151. Orton jobbed to Hogan. Gained my respect.

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  152. Everyone kind of forgot about that match but man did it to some serious damage to Reigns. I remember the word being that their house show matches sucked and they had no chemistry. Like assholes they still do the match at the PPV and have it go long.

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  153. Hulk Hogan will probably spoil it for them by claiming to TMZ that they drew 172,000 before WWE can announce the bogus number.

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  154. It's not rumor even -- it was the case.

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  155. Also -- they massively jacked up the ticket prices. They made as much money for 4 and 5 as they did for 3 -- which set the precedent for them to really make big money for 6.

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  156. Man it's a good thing no one is in the office right now, i busted out laughing

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  157. Besides the Pope or WM, are there any other shows held in the Silverdome with a verified attendance of greater than 78,000? What did Lions games do for sellouts?

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  158. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonApril 10, 2015 at 1:32 PM

    Hogan will count all the life forms in space that saw him slam the nearly 900 lb. stinky wart-infested Giant.

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  159. All you have to do is watch WM 30 to know why the wrestlers appreciate Orton. After having to adjust mid-move for the powerbomb-RKO combo, his spine appears to land squarely on a monitor. It's cringeworthy. But just a few minutes later, he does the hanging DDT spot with Batista on the floor. What does Randy do? Slams his back to the floor to create noise/impact to get an "ooh" from the crowd while Batista's head doesn't touch the floor. Yes, he's had his share of botches, but I'm not sure if I've seen another guy protect wrestlers the way he does and still make the moves look badass.

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  160. Thanks for having such a factual and straightforward answer. I'm actually seeing people respond with "look at the photos--more than 80k are there!" That's not an answer!

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  161. The Rock and Roll Express were reprimanded by Dusty Rhodes for selling out arenas that he wasn't on the card.
    Another case could be made for Steamboat and Youngblood during their feuds with Slaughter / Kernodle and the Briscos.

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  162. Ok--http://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/superbowl/images/silver_top.jpg

    Superbowl XVI in 1982 at the Silverdome. Official attendance 81,270.

    If that number is accurate, if you've seen enough pictures from WM 3, you'd know there is no way that 78k is the right number. Given the setup for the show, I think at minimum it'd be 86k.

    86k with 78k I could buy.

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  163. Hey Scott, thanks for answering my question.

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  164. Orton is a solid, if boring worker.

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  165. Demolition, WWF in 1988-1989

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  166. Orton as a heel always looks like he doesn't give a shit about being there.

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  167. Yes, I agree. It looks like way more than 78k, and I think there've been some stories over the years about Zane having an ax to grind regarding the show for some reason.

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  168. And the dude is smooth as silk. I think he's gonna be one of those guys, like his dad, that certain fans didn't appreciate in his time but, 20 years from now, will be remembered with the proper respect.


    The Network has shown me just how great Bob Orton was, for many of the same reasons his son is great.

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  169. Really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYyOXRfsrBA

    One of the best heels in the business.

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  170. It was probably 87k and he just flipped the numbers to Meltzer to be cute.

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  171. That 1970s St. Louis-style main event he worked against Bryan on Raw in ... I believe February of last year was a MASTERPIECE.

    His 2011 and his run from Summerslam 13 to May of 14 were his best periods, and he did incredible work throughout.

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  172. Yep. It's called a Road Warrior Pop for a reason.

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  173. "YOU DID THIS!!" was easily the best part.

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  174. The Ace could SELL. I loved his "punch himself out and fall against his opponent" bit and also when he'd get hit hard and smack his head on the middle turnbuckle.

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  175. He didn't sandbag, but the match was definitely structured to make Randy look like the star. Very weird.

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  176. Now I need to look that up. I'm sure Randy knows how to work the St. Louis style, but I can't recall such a bout.

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  177. MegaPowers, Rock'n'Sock, Hogan& Andre.

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  178. I doubt Zane having an ax to grind played into it -- I think it's more the case that time fuzzied the details.

    Zane and Meltzer had this convo in 1997. I keep hearing people refer to Zane giving Meltzer some kind of gate receipt -- can someone provide a link to that particular detail?

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  179. Wrestlers just have different opinions on what makes a good worker. Yeah, Orton is technically proficient, fluid and probably very easy to work with but he bores me to tears.


    Likewise, I've heard a half-dozen wrestlers claim that Marc Mero was one of the worst workers ever, and I enjoyed most of his work, pre-knee injury anyway.

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  180. It was passed on. Randy has my all-time favorite strike sell, the Glass Joe spin-on-a-dime faceplant. The way he sold Shawn's superkick was just amazing.


    But yeah, Bob was a master at those little things. I watched a house show match he had against old man Pedro Morales on the Network, and it was one of the greatest examples of a true carry job that I have seen. Orton almost literally wrestles himself and steals the show.

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  181. It was a random title match that had almost no build to it, and it happened either right before or right after Elimination Chamber 14. They went 30, worked patiently through a pretty dead crowd early on, and had them eating out of their palms by about the 15-minute mark. Great work from both guys. I'm fairly certain it was in February, but it may have been the end of January.

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  182. Rolling Stones had a shit ton of people in the Silverdome the same year as Wrestlemania III...

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  183. Burt Macklin, Man Without FearApril 10, 2015 at 2:52 PM

    Greatest thing of all-time. The whole video is amazing. You did this!!

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  184. Add the Wrestlemania III attendance conspiracy to the great mysteries of professional wrestling lore!

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  185. Burt Macklin, Man Without FearApril 10, 2015 at 2:56 PM

    My favorite part might be at the end after the SUPLEX. YOU!

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  186. Who cares, mania III is still one of the greatest images in wrestling history

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  187. What makes him "boring"?

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  188. He did GREAT putting over Henry when he did. Made the guy look like a killer.

    Orton's one flaw though is how he can easily let crowd reactions get to him. He's the opposite of Cena in that way.

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  189. Whatever, says Dear Leader. Collison in Korea had 400,000 fans!

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  190. Thanks you Randy!

    Clap, clap, clap

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  191. You must be deaf.

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  192. The crime was not doing Hogan/Savage in a bigger venue.

    Go ahead and keep mania 4 at the plaza, but do Hogan/Savage at the silverdome and Hogan/Warrior at the coliseum.

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  193. There are tax and payroll reasons why the WWF may have wanted to work the figure downward internally.

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  194. Someone please pause a copy of Wrestlemania 3 and count every fan in the stands. It's the only way to settle this.

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