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4.4 million buys for Mayweather/Pacquiao


> https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/598175129097535488
>
> But PPV is dead!

Just think how many it would have done were PPV not dead. 

Comments

  1. Isn't it really easy to see that there's a huge difference between a "Once in lifetime" big match like Floyd/Manny and the monthly model that WWE employs? I don't understand how people don't see the distinction when they start with the "but i thought PPV was dead" snark.


    It makes sense for the Rumble, Mania and Summerslam to be on PPV, but the network model makes perfect sense for the B shows.

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  2. This is not an original thought. Lots of people want to see this model adopted.

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  3. Just snark for the sake of snark, I figure.

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  4. I've seen it brought up a bunch too, it was directed at people who see the big maypac buy rate and try to directly apply it to the WWE model as if it's apples to apples

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  5. Is wrestling the only genre of entertainment where the fans complain because they want to pay MORE for the product and the company won't let them?

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  6. Because it proves PPV is still a viable option to make a literal shit ton of money. That's the whole point of the snark!


    WWE's PPV numbers died because the product sucked. And guess what? Their network numbers are terrible because the product sucks.

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  7. Yes, because the failure of the Network is affecting the whole company. I think people have proven with wrestling for 15 years that they will pay a large chunk of money for an event if the product is good. But the product currently sucks really bad & it pisses people off.

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  8. I agree with you its apples and oranges. Its just snark for the sake of snark. I don't quite understand why everyone loves to say "they do everything 100 percent wrong and they're failures" instead of saying "I'm glad I'm paying 120 a year for 12 pay per views and not one".

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  9. If boxing put out boring ass fights like Mayweather/Pacquiao every month, that 4.4 million would be 400K in no time. Topher nails it below.

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  10. WWE don't have big enough names for PPV.The day's where there where stars could move on and not exhaust all their options is are long over.

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  11. It was billed as a "once in a lifetime" fight, but at the same time it seems like everyone I read said that because both fighters stood to make so much money from the fight that there was no incentive to really have an all out brawl like a Rumble in the Jungle type boxing match. So where did the interest come from? Didn't we all know it would go the distance and that Mayweather would win because of his defensive strategy?

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  12. Wrestling fans would bang a 10/10 prostitute, find a way to not enjoy themselves then tell her she really should charge more

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  13. The rematch will get close to that as well. Sad.

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  14. I'd be shocked if the rematch does 3 million. There's not that many suckers

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  15. I dunno about close to 4.4. This one left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths and didn't leave much question about who the better fighter is.

    Don't get me wrong; if they do a rematch, it'll break 3 for sure, maybe even 3.5, but I don't see it breaking 4.

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  16. But but pac was hurt you see

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  17. That's been Mayweather's style for years now, ever since he had to acknowledge that he got older.

    Plus Pacquiao doesn't have nearly as good a record and his style of offense plays right into Mayweather's jab-and-reset, hug-when-necessary defense.

    But remember, a lot of people want to see Sting/Taker, even today. Why? Not because it's gonna be a good match. It's for the novelty and spectacle.

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  18. Captain Dr. Facts SoloMay 12, 2015 at 1:12 PM

    Watched that fight on the showtime replay on Saturday. I love how the crowd would go nuts when Pacman almost had Mayweather on his ass.

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  19. Yep, Tito Ortiz Syndrome is a bitch.

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  20. Not just 4.4 million buys. But 4.4 million buys at $90-$100

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  21. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 1:14 PM

    When was that?

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  22. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 1:15 PM

    There will be no rematch.

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  23. and on the conference call Vince will deflect questions about this huge buyrate he said would never happen, then talk up his NEW PLAY to increase Network subscriptions... get the wrestling off there and replace it with more Jerry Springer!

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  24. best part is the Feb ppv doing about 40K buys... hilarious

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  25. Captain Dr. Facts SoloMay 12, 2015 at 1:21 PM

    When was what?

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  26. then you should go by some stock in the company


    you're the same guy that wrote 10+ post yesterday about how Starrcade 96, 97, and 98 were awesome and did great business, so you clearly know what you're talking about

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  27. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 1:27 PM

    Wait, but PPV is dead right? Like it died and stuff???

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  28. When did he almost have him on his ass? He hit him with a good punch here and there but Mayweather was never in any real trouble at all.

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  29. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 1:30 PM

    Most people including myself would both make the "I Thought PPV was dead!" snark remark and also agree that the model should be a mix of B-PPVs on the Network, plus Mania and maybe Summerslam as a regular PPV.

    You're creating a strawman, nobody is saying that they need to have Night of Champions and Battleground exclusively on PPV and get rid of teh network.

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  30. They could always create new stars.

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  31. Captain Dr. Facts SoloMay 12, 2015 at 1:35 PM

    Let me rephrase my statement. When the crowd thought Pacman almost had Mayweather down.

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  32. I won't disagree there, but again just because they're both on PPV (merely the distribution channel) doesn't mean the parallels are strong. There is no matchup on earth that WWE could produce that would create the mainstream "Casual fan" interest that this boxing match did. Even if business was booming it wouldn't be possible.

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  33. Oh yeah they were excited to see him do anything. Even if he threw a bunch of punches that got blocked.

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  34. Captain Dr. Facts SoloMay 12, 2015 at 1:38 PM

    Mayweather is probably the best defensive fighter I've seen fight.

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  35. I laugh when people complain about him not standing there to get hit. Why would you just stand there and get hit in the head repeatedly just to prove something. Getting brain damage isn't cool.

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  36. Well they all did historic buy rates and the television ratings after the shows did great numbers so I'd say most of the wrestling world thought they were awesome otherwise why pay for a show and continue to tune in the next night. They without a doubt did great business and made truckloads of money however what that has to do with my post I'm not sure but thanks for the recap on my posts good to know you're paying attention. Now let's work on comprehension

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  37. I don't think there will be one either. People are not going to forget this one and will not pay these prices to see that kind of fight again.

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  38. Yeah, but there's a difference in being defensive and being overly cautious. He never goes for the kill, which is why he gets criticized. People didn't hate on Ray Leonard because he had some pop and would get in and go for the finish on occasion.


    Floyd is content just to potshot his way to victory. It's effective, but I understand why it's so reviled by fans. He's just not an exciting fighter.

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  39. Everyone keeps implying this was said when did Vince say this? That ppv was dead? I missed that. But hey something something something maggle...something something cranky senile Vince amirite

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  40. Floyd basically got his style from his dad. A funny fight to watch is a young Floyd Sr vs Sugar Ray Leonard on youtube. The difference between the two styles is right there. Of course Jr is way better than Sr ever was.

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  41. The amazing thing is that it was $100, it was going to be a shit fight, and Floyd winning was a foregone conclusion, and it still did 4M buys. Un-fucking-real

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  42. MORE FREE MONTHS

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  43. It's been said before, but if Manny and Floyd had already fought thirty times, most of them for free, but occasionally on ppv over the last ten years, it wouldn't have drawn quite as well as it did.

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  44. THATS GODDAMN CRAZY PAL! WHAT IF THEY GET POPULAR AND LEAVE LIKE THE ROCK?! THEY NEED ME GODDAMMIT

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  45. And you're still missing the point. If Mayweather fought five times a year against the likes of Pacquiao, 4.4 would be unattainable. It hit that number because they avoided fighting for years and years and years.

    Also, fans complaining about paying LESS money for a product makes zero sense.

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  46. Yep. Makes no sense.

    "But the company could be making more money!" Why do you give a shit?

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  47. I said it before, I love that i don't have to pay whatever stupid prices Wrestlemania or Summerslam would be. If all i have to do is pay the price of the network and get everything, that's perfect for me. I wouldn't even watch those shows if i had to actually order them.

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  48. I watched one ten second instagram video of the fight for free and feel I got my money's worth

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  49. PPV isn't dead, but it takes something like a fight with this profile to get anywhere close to this number..and this fight may have killed it.

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  50. I think you still may have overpaid.

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  51. If there's some concern that something they love will go out of business because of the $10/month model, it makes sense to suggest they try to charge more.

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  52. He's the GSP of boxing....or vice versa.

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  53. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that if there is a rematch, it will get no more than 4,399,399 buys.

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  54. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:14 PM

    You don't have to get even close to this number for PPV to make you a shitload of money though.


    4.4 million buys shows that it's still a very viable distribution method. Hell, we're barely 5 months into the year and UFC has already had several really successful PPV shows. The format absolutely is viable.

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  55. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:16 PM

    People are analyzing and debating topics, business-related ones too. Why do you give a shit about that?

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  56. Plus, you always hope. You see the names and think it could be amazing.

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  57. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:21 PM

    Dude, nobody is saying that anything WWE could do would hit 4.4 million buys. Not even close. We've pretty much seen what the ceiling is for wrestling PPV numbers, back in the Attitude Era and with Trump/Vince and Rock/cena 1. That's not the issue.


    And yes, obviously the business models for boxing and wrestling are totally different. It's almost impossible to keep matchups as fresh in the wrestling model, with TV and such. Again, all understood.


    But Wrestlemania and to a lesser extent Summerslam and the Rumble are huge assets that WWE has grossly undervalued. There's no reason that WWE should be charging $10 a shot for the one guaranteed huge draw it has every year. That's crazy, and the Network numbers don't bare it out as making any financial sense. I mean, if Mania being on the Network brought them 3 million subscribers then sure--- but it didn't. Not even close.


    And dude, we're on a message board analyzing and debating the pros and cons of lots of different topics, including business-related ones. It's interesting. Why do you give a shit? Nobody here is gonna take away your $10 PPVs. (Though WWE probably will eventually, because the Network model as is obviously needs overhaul.)

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  58. That's a fair point. Do "regular" boxing matches do well on PPV still?

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  59. That fight was a legalized bank robbery. In that case, a sucker was born every second.

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  60. I might be getting the wrong end of the stick here but is anyone actually saying they'd prefer the old PPV model over getting them for "free" on the Network every month?

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  61. It makes no sense for you, as a fan, to want to pay more money for a product, especially a product many will then turn around and say "$50 for THAT card?!"

    As fans, shouldn't we only care about what we see? About whether what we see entertains us or not? It'd be like rooting for a sports team and arguing tickets should be more expensive. Or rooting for theaters to charge more money for tickets to the Avengers because the demand is there.

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  62. You're right. Everything in entertainment should cost more money. Whatever the people will pay, right? Then when business goes down, it's because of the product, not the ridiculous prices being charged.

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  63. Perfect analogy.

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  64. Bingo. And there are a lot of people like that. The ~1 million people on the network is a better number than any show short of Mania will ever do.

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  65. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:34 PM

    Here's a super quick look at JUST Manny's fights over the last 5 years, since 2010. He's drawn buys of
    - 1.1
    - 1.3
    - 1.4
    - 700k
    - 1.1
    - 470k
    - 800k

    So yes dude, just Manny's fights alone outdraw Mania and any other wrestling PPV.
    Cotto had a fight a few years ago draw 1.5.
    I'm not even looking up anyone else like the Klitshko fights and god knows who else (I'm not a boxing fan). But yes, the moral is people will stay buy something on PPV if they want to see it.

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  66. WWE could easily put PPVs back to being only available on PPV and they'd be back to drawing their old PPV numbers. It's such a dumb business move and a loss of a substantial amount of money giving the PPVs away for free or $9.99.

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  67. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:35 PM

    No, I think people are just analyzing/debating it from the perspective of whether it's a good strategy for WWE.

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  68. I'd be willing to wager there will be.

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  69. Loaded question. There aren't a lot of regular boxers campaigning on PPV. The Canelo/Kirkland matchup that produced this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LehQX1bbGQk
    was just on HBO and Canelo's a huge name.

    When Canelo and Cotto fight in 2016 that's going to draw a million. When the winner fights GGG some time down the line, THAT will draw a million.

    But there just aren't a lot of guys who can actually draw reliably on PPV. The heavyweight title draws flies and was on cable recently. Nobody's paying to see Timothy Bradley or Rigondeaux and those guys are allegedly in the top 10 P4P.

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  70. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:41 PM

    OK keep on ignoring what I'm saying...


    Nobody is saying PLEASE CHARGE ME MORE. If anyone wanted they could mail WWE a check for extra money if they feel so inclined. Nobody is or has ever said that here.


    We're analyzing and debating the business side of wrestling. Is this a smart move by WWE, from the POV of just debating it for the heck of it. Because that can be an enjoyable and interesting thing to do.


    And from that perspective, their business model seems to be absurd and not doing well and so some of us are discussing that. Got it?


    Nobody is "rooting" for anything because what does that even mean here? Does us analyzing the business side mean that we're going to exert a magic influence over WWE and accidentally cause them to charge more?


    Maybe just accept that some human beings have different interests then you, ya know? You don't care about talking about the business side of wrestling. Cool! Then don't.



    And as to your movie example, plenty of people have this exact same interest in regards to the movie business.


    Anyway, again don't worry: nothing said here will affect the price of your Network subscription. It'll be ok.

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  71. So this Pacquiao guy. We'd heard of him before this fight?

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  72. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:43 PM

    Nobody is saying that dude. You're debating imaginary voices in your head right now.

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  73. Yeah, I'm not a boxing fan. I've heard Canelo's name (maybe due to his fight with Mayweather...?) and I know there are two Klitchko's that nobody seems to care about anymore and beyond that, I don't know that I could name 5 more fighters.

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  74. Cool, thought people had lost their minds for a minute

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  75. I'm the most casual boxing fan there is and I was well aware of him

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  76. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:45 PM

    "The ~1 million people on the network is a better number than any show short of Mania will ever do." Yeah but they're losing money on Network revenue vs the PPV model. They have come nowhere close to making up for lost PPV revenue.

    Again, I'm not saying "PLEASE CHARGE ME MORE!" (actually, I'm not a Network subscriber myself), I'm just saying that as a statement of things that are happening.

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  77. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 2:46 PM

    No, but one dude seems to be taking such talk very personally, like the BOD commenters are gonna convince WWE to charge him more money.

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  78. Dare I ask who?

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  79. Evidently you are at least the SECOND most casual boxing fan there is.

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  80. He didn't. It's the new smark meme.

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  81. Vince said it a lot in justifying moving to THE NETWORK to Wall Street investors and on conference calls... you can do better trolling than that

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  82. think you should go back to telling us how Starrcade 96 broke revenue records and was the greatest event in the history of wrestling

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  83. You'd think so.

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  84. OK, let's take the financial argument then. I feel that in the long term, the diminishing PPV returns will be more than cancelled out by network subscriptions. Even if they hold at just over a million over a five or 10-year period, that'll catch up and defeat the dwindling PPV numbers even before the network started.

    Vince may have thought it would be an instant hit, but I think most people knew the network was a long-form game, not a short one.

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  85. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 2:57 PM

    One of the top 3 defensive fighters of all time.

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  86. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 2:58 PM

    It was up to Manny to press the fight and make him engage. For whatever reason he did a piss-poor job of it.

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  87. They might get the same number of buys, but no way the revenue would be the same.

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  88. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 2:58 PM

    Floyd Sr.'s style was drastically alters by a shotgun blast to the leg.

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  89. Nobody's taking anything personally. Some of us are just questioning the prevailing snark-first logic.

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  90. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 2:59 PM

    Floyd said no and the numbers attached to this fight won't warrant a rematch.

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  91. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:00 PM

    Thank you. The only time Floyd has ever been really pushed in a fight was Castillo and Maidana 1. Floyd will not engage in slugfests.

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  92. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:01 PM

    If he didn't mention the injury before the fight he can't use it as an excuse afterwards.

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  93. "Yep, Tito Ortiz is a bitch."

    I'm gonna tell him you said that,

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  94. Of note: Manny has fought seven times in five years. John Cena wrestles every week.

    The Walking Dead probably wouldn't get many viewers if it used a PPV model. It would have a small, dedicated fanbase that would continue buying shows as it gradually (or quickly) fell off the pop culture radar.

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  95. Starrcade 96 did big numbers.

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  96. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:02 PM

    I'm hoping Canelo fight Cotto in September in MSG. I will be there.

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  97. Apples and oranges. A once in a lifetime super fight can't be compared to monthly WWE PPVs

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  98. I could see why people might be concerned for the financial problems the WWE is no doubt enduring. Short term they'll be fine but how many more years can they take before the ship really starts sinking.

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  99. 0.95 buyrate, about 350K buys... next ppv was 0.47 for about 170K buys... what a huge success

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  100. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:04 PM

    The thing is that the boxing PPV are less frequent so there is time to do some build up. WWE hasn't really done a good job of this.

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  101. I agree, but Floyd shouldn't be immune to criticism either. I'm a GSP fan and take the "it's up to his opponents to stop him" stance, but I get why people didn't like his last ... five fights or so (sans Condit).

    Look, Sweet Pea was a hell of a boxer, but he was super boring and a lot of people hated watching him.

    I totally agree Manny didn't press enough, or couldn't, but Floyd hasn't had a really exciting fight since ... Cotto? Maybe Oscar, even.

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  102. He didn't look that hurt when he was throwing those combos in the fourth round. Possible it affected him later in the fight, but he dropped the first two, maybe three rounds.

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  103. ... back in 98 people that were critical of WCW giving away Goldberg vs Hogan for free on Nitro instead of actually making money on PPV were told the same thing
    "would you rather not get the match you want shown on free tv?!?" ... we know how that worked out

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  104. Floyd-Canelo did 2.2 million.

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  105. I take you point but WCW had a lot more problems than just giving away Goldberg/Hogan on free TV. WWE isn't going out of business - they just reported their highest quarterly income EVER (like the 3rd time I've said this the last few days)

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  106. The only way it doesn't happen is if Floyd is really retiring in September.

    If Floyd wants 50-0 and to open the new MGM Arena, it will be against Pacquiao.

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  107. You had never heard of Manny Pacquiao before this fight?

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  108. Something touched me deep inside the Day Pay-Per-View died.

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  109. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 3:12 PM

    I agree that the Network is a long term game, and I agree that it was a smart idea to create it.

    But putting Wrestlemania on there, even looking long term, just isn't a good idea. It's not gonna translate into nearly enough subscribers to make up for the lost PPV revenue.

    And Mania is a property that would still continue to draw well on PPV in huge numbers. Dude, Mania on PPV the last ten years has grown while all other aspects of their business have fallen. Mania was the best property they had and they completely devalued it.

    It's showing to be a dumb move, and I'd bet that this year they find a way to charge more for Mania. (They really have to based on the subscription numbers.) Whether that means charging more for the month of April, or creating a one time payment to get mania on the Network, or pulling Mania off teh Network altogether-- I dunno, but I'd bet they do something to monetize it better.

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  110. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:12 PM

    The first Maidana fight was exciting. Why? Be cause Chino took the fight to Floyd This is what happens to Mayweather opponents. If you don't press the action you will be down 5 rounds before you know it.


    People keep saying he needs to close the show. I say he doesn't. You do the same thing over and over again until your opponent stops it. People tell me the Spurs are not a flashy team and I tell them their ring fingers look pretty flashy to me.

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  111. Only dummy's are upset about the new model but down the line, several years from now, will this new model cripple the WWE for good.

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  112. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:13 PM

    Floyd did an interview where he said he'd pick his next opponent, the PPV would be about $40 and he'd pack the card with young champions. There is no one out there I really want to see Floyd fight, except Serafim Todorov.

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  113. Legalized bank robbery is school loans, high taxes, things like that. This was a sports spectacle.

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  114. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:14 PM

    He's the guy in the pistachios commercial.

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  115. It was two business partners playing the world masterfully. The build up was A+ stuff and then they spent 12 rounds 'figuring each other out'

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  116. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:16 PM

    I look at it like this: The majority of the people that complained are the rich people that don't watch the NFL but get a Superbowl ticket because it's the thing to do. If you went into this wanting a slugfest you should have saved your money and watched the Canelo/Kirkland fight a week later.

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  117. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 3:17 PM

    Wow man, how many times do I have to nod and say "Yes, I understand that." I get that boxing and wrestling aren't the same thing, and that their business models are different, and that WWE TV affects their ability to create fresh matchups the same way boxing does on PPV.

    I said this below. To you. That's not the issue.

    My point here is that PPV as a distribution model is still very viable. People are willing to pay money, even big money, via PPV to purchase something that they really want to see.

    Is Orton vs Rollins for the 100th time at payback an example of that? No. But Wrestlemania every year is. Summerslam and the Rumble with a Lesnar fight also is, to a lesser extent. WWE can still create these big money assets.

    And for the 100th time also, this doesn't mean they should get rid of the Network. Nobody is saying that.

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  118. See, the anti smart contingent takes talk about what would be "best for bussiness" as what we would personally like to see in a way to discredit opinions. It's not--what I want to see more than anything is almost certainly bad for bussiness because I'm a niche customer--and I recognize that. Outside of oneself they can still provide commentary on what they think would be a good move for WWE bussiness wise. Wrestling is the hobby here but wrestling is cold as ice, so bussiness speculation is an amusing way to pass the time.

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  119. Nope. I'm not a huge follower of sports, but to be perfectly honest I wasn't even aware that boxing was still a thing that happened outside of Mayweather being at WM that year.
    Have there been other fights this year? Is there a circuit? Are there other boxers?

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  120. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:17 PM

    Because Vince will take a once and a lifetime match up and do it every Monday.

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  121. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:18 PM

    Watch Premier Boxing. It's on free TV and there have been some really good fights.

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  122. Worst_in_the_WorldMay 12, 2015 at 3:18 PM

    Ding ding ding

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  123. You know, they only way to solve the school loans problem is higher taxes.

    Just a thought.

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  124. I can see the Mania argument for sure.

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  125. Yeah I get you, it just comes across that way sometimes because people can get STAUNCH about it

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  126. The Spurs are awesome to watch. They weren't 10 years ago, and the NBA suffered because of it.

    Canelo pressed Mayweather and got jabbed and potshotted for 12 rounds.

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  127. Yes, that'll be in September. It's his last fight on Showtime/CBS and will be sold as his "retirement fight". It could be against Amir Khan, but I wouldn't be surprised if he took a soft touch to get to 49-0.

    He says he's retiring, but no one in boxing takes that seriously for two reasons.

    1.) Many have speculated he set up his Showtime contract to take him to 49-0 so he could have a major bidding war for his 50th fight, which could include NBC or CBS.

    2.) The MGM Grand is opening their new Arena in the Spring of 2016. Mayweather has a strong business relationship with the MGM Grand and it's been widely assumed for years that Mayweather's "50-0" fight would open the arena.

    There was a lot of disappointment in Mayweather-Pacquiao, but even if a rematch does 1/2 or even 1/3rd of the business, it's still the richest fight that can be made in combat sports. And if you're paying attention, they're already selling it with Top Rank pushing the "Manny was injured storyline" and Floyd reverting back to the Money Mayweather persona in his Showtime interview.

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  128. He hurt himself during the flurry in the 4th round. Buboy asks him in the corner something along the lines of "what happened, did you get hurt" in Tagalog and Manny looks him off.

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  129. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:25 PM

    I disagree. That was one of a few fights that I've sen that Floyd stood in front of his opponent and engaged. He was right there to be hit, but the angles he gave Canelo made it impossible for him to be caught.

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  130. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:26 PM

    Floyd already said he knows a rematch wouldn't do numbers. If he wanted the 50 number he could get it against an up and comer that's not ready like Danny Garcia or Thurman.

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  131. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:26 PM

    I'll have to look at the replay of that.

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  132. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:27 PM

    He threw a flurry in the sixth round as well.

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  133. Wrestling killed itself in the 90's while doing its biggest bussiness ever.

    Attitude just isn't a sustainable model, and the new model keeps all the bad parts with none of the adult content.

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  134. Actually I see it being just the opposite. I think short term they're going to be financially stressed but long term (the Network will eventually pay for itself) is when they'll be just fine.

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  135. Yeah shot by his bro in law and Floyd Sr used baby Money as a shield because he knew the uncle wouldn't shoot the baby.

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  136. I imagine when democrats want to tax anything over 100,000 earned that's what their talking about.

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  137. It won't do 4.4 million and $600 million total revenue, but a Pacquiao rematch is the richest fight that he can make because Pacquiao is still the 2nd biggest star in the sport and he'll be able to demand a higher % of the split.

    Even worst case scenario, Mayweather-Pacquiao 2 does 1/4th the business, that's still 1.1 million PPV buys. A Danny Garcia or Keith Thurman fight doesn't even crack 1 million buys.

    The only way it doesn't happen is if he actually retires, or if he throws Al Haymon a bone and fights on PBC on NBC.

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  138. When does the network pay for itself exactly.

    I don't think the company is in any risk of going out of bussiness--I just don't see when the record profits of the network make throwing easy pp money away for years makes switching to the network when they did worth it.

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  139. Is this sarcasm or honesty or...what exactly?

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  140. It was the biggest pay per view buyrate in company history. You also realize that compared to the much smaller audience watching wrestling in 1996 that the number of buys is a much larger percentage of overall audience. You ALSO realize that it was the largest buyrate in pro wrestling for that year and the two years before that. So yeah it was a huge deal I'm sorry you're not able to comprehend this. I could go on but clearly numbers are a foreign language to you.

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  141. Even at wrestling peak when you had Austin the biggest star of a life time vs. The Rock the other biggest star of a life time and the two biggest stars in pro wrestling history not named Hulk Hogan. You had these guys facing each other at the absolute peak of popularity of the product in history possibly and they still couldn't touch this buyrate. Even in the golden age Hulk Hogan still wrestled all the time. In boxing your biggest stars fight once or twice a year tops. Two completely different business models.

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  142. Yes, and wrestling hit it's peak by switching to the everyone fights every week model.


    it's great short term murder long term. As I said below

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  143. If you watch the replay, on the flurry he throws a strong uppercut up the middle that misses, then he throws a left and then a weird feint with the right to the body, then he backs off.



    BTW, I don't think the hurt shoulder was the reason he lost. Manny was way too flatfooted and Floyd controlled the angles all night. It didn't really matter if he was hurt or not.

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  144. Proportionate to other sports, wrestling was huge pre tv and during the first golden age of the 50's

    It used a vastly different model then. Parts of this conversation make me feel it's worth mentioning wrestling history exists before the year 1980.

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  145. Still don't know why they didn't keep Wrestlemania as PPV exclusive.

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  146. I think its common thought these days that the future of television is chord cutting media such as the Network, Hulu, Vudu, Prime, etc.


    Food for thought they gave away Hogan/Goldberg for free on tv but people still bought the pay per views. 1998 was the most profitable year in the history of pro wrestling and WCW was the most profitable company in history up until that point. Bash at the Beach did nearly 600K buys, Halloween Havoc did 400 K buys, Starrcade nearly 500, Superbrawl the next year nearly 500. So yeah they could have made money with Goldberg/Hogan without a doubt it would have done a staggering number but it didn't cripple the company financially or take interest away from the product in any way.

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  147. Isn't the fact Vince hates money well established at this point :D

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  148. I'm guessing they figured Network numbers would skyrocket but that whole commitment thing likely shyed away casuals who just watch WM.

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  149. Even Hogan/Andre at Wrestlemania III didn't touch 4.4 million buys nor did Hogan/Savage no wrestling pay per view in history has ever gotten 50 million in revenue from pay per view. Not any Wrestlemania, not any Starrcade no matter if they were fighting every week or not. Hell wasn't the buildup to Rock vs. Austin is that Austin had been on the shelf for over a year and that they hadn't fought in two years. Still couldn't touch it.

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  150. Im not surprised but still pissed. That fight was shit. Id rather watch december to dismember than watch that bullshit again

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  151. Charismatic eNegro Jef VinsonMay 12, 2015 at 3:54 PM

    Floyd controlled the range. He used his 5" reach advantage effectively.

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  152. Even during the 80's it did huge television numbers. Didn't Andre/Hogan do like ten million viewers or something like that. So yeah no doubt wrestling was huge for television and its been great for live gates but its never been as big of a ppv commodity as say boxing.

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  153. I was hyped to buy it when it was first announced and then by the time it was fight night I realized Floyd was going to win, it was going to be boring, and it was a 100 dollars for the fight so I spent 20 bucks and watched the Avengers.

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  154. No one is saying that wrestling is capable of hitting 4.4 million buys though.

    Litteraly no one, you're arguing with a straw man blowing in the wind.

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  155. I simply think non-fans are more comfortable ordering boxing than wrestling. There three reasons.
    1. More mainstream coverage of big boxing matches.
    2. less stigma
    3. Easier to get into one "storyline" with a couple boxers than wrestling storylines.

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  156. Give me one link where Vince McMahon says ppv is dead. One link because I haven't been able to find a single quote from Vince saying its dead. I can see him saying its declining or that they want to supplement it with the network or whatever but I've not seen him say its dead. I mean where you in these Wall Street Investor meetings? Because I can't find a single recap of him saying the ppv model is dead.


    Just to recap I'm trolling because I asked to see a link to Vince saying that? Or I'm trolling because I said that subscription services are the future?

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  157. but you did mention that "everyone fighting every week" killed ppv for WWE. It didn't kill it during the attitude era because the matchups were short, resulted in schmozz finishes, and were often bait and switches. You combine being able to see 90% of the matches on Raw and SD before the ppv with a very "not hot" product and it is a recipe for 150k buys for most ppvs even before the network.


    I'd also add that a certain number of wrestling fans (myself included) see value in watching ppvs even knowing the results. Thus DVD sales can cannablize ppv buys also. Boxing on the other hand has little value knowing the result unless the fight is abslutely legendary. Far fewer fans appreciate the "artistry" of boxing like wrestling fans do in watching matches already viewed or with knowledge of the results.

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  158. I agree with you. ESPN promotes the fight for free for months on end damn near 24/7. Not to mention that its "real" as far as casual fans go and "not that fake shit". I agree with you one hundred percent.

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  159. I'd argue the percentage of fans who want to re watch shows they know the results too is much smaller than you think it is.

    We the niche. The niche forgotten.

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  160. they did at one time when there were more names. Guys like Chavez, Roy Jones Jr., De La Hoya, bunch of old timers like Leonard, Hearns, etc. plus heavyweights could headline a ppv. Heck even some great ligher guys like McKinney, Lopez, or Barrera could do a ppv if you put on 3 or 4 bigger name matchups. I don't know that the average boxing ppv did 2 million buys but there more of them, so overall I think there were more buys and more boxers making money.

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  161. So then what is the point? WWE's product is in the toilet and nobody buys their ppv's and the business was declining by quite a bit every year the last half decade or so. So the point was that they shouldn't have started the Network and gave away ppv's for free? They just posted their highest quarter ever so I'm not sure what the critique of their business model is. That we all know better than them what they should have done with a business model they virtually created and sustained for 30 years?

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  162. Your point here is spot on.

    I'd say all 3 of those points are, to varying degrees, WWE's fault though Rather than intrinsic to wrestling.

    Point 1 is most outside their control but still heavily related to point 2 which has lots to do with their own decisions.

    Point 3 is absolutey their fault.
    I still think being fake lowers the ceiling below Boxing's but it could be much higher than it is.

    Now, unrelated ramblings this brought up--maybe there is more money in running wrestling as weekly tv put the wwe is in this wierd space where they are neither the tv style of Lucha Underground or the sports style of New Japan. I think the tension between trying to be one thing while still structured like another is half their problem.

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  163. I don't think that there's less stigma at this point, honestly. Boxing is pretty hated these days.

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  164. it's a glass half full, half emtpy thing. On one hand they continue to find ways to find new revenue sources. On the other hand, the core brand is damaged. They continue to cut costs, primarily by expanding the workload of corporate employees and cutting salaries for wrestlers. That may come back to bite them in the ass, both from current wrestlers leaving and from fewer athletes considering it an option in the future.


    At a certain point you can only open so many new international markets. That area is about done. It really is interesting though at a time that mainstream interest seems lower than ever, IWC satisfaction lower than ever, and schoolyards bereft of kids wearing wrestling shirts or talking about it, they find a way to keep revenue up. I just wonder how long they can juggle the current business model before the next TV deal isn't as good, and other revenue sources decline.

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  165. hated enough to get 4.4 million folks, 4 million of whom couldn't name 10 fighters active today, to fork over $100 bucks (or some portion of).

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  166. I'm not sure they have a problem. I know that "we" have a problem in that we want this genre of entertainment presented to us in a particular way and for some reason we need it to be this company that presents it to us. However they seem to be doing ok financially and their business structure at this time seems to be solid if not progressing. I don't think any of us or any of them for that matter are qualified to speculate on what their future holds with the current business model in place.

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  167. Real Sports >>> wrestling. Boxing has tens of millions of domestic people to pitch their product too. Wrestling has about 4 million and lots of those are poor/mentally handicapped/little kids so there just isn't the same market. If every person who watched raw bought payback on ppv they'd be almost a million short of this mark.

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  168. I agree with most of that. However you mentioned salaries being cut. I haven't read any wrestlers making less money. Dolph Ziggler has pretty much been a mid carder 4 life and he makes six figures. Even Ryder makes six figures. So these guys are making pretty good money.


    As far as fewer athletes considering it an option. Flair wasn't an athlete, Hogan wasn't an athlete, Shawn was captain of his HS football team but certainly not a big athlete. I guess my point is that although these guys are undoubtedly athletes and although guys like Angle and Brock and even Shelton have been great pro wrestlers its not like its been a requirement to be a big time draw.


    Also I'd like to note that more people are still watching pro wrestling than they were in 1993. Its still usually the top cable program or one of the top cable programs. Drawing 4 million and 3 million viewers. I still see John Cena shirts all over my daughters playground. Business is down but its not Vince is going Bankrupt 1995 down.

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  169. I'm not seeing shirts around town, at my daughters school, and my brother is a teacher and he says no one talks wrestling there either. I'm in Michigan, my brother Sacramento. Two different markets.


    As for salaries, you aren't hearing then. Without ppvs, guys are losing big time money. It is one of the things Punk complained about. The WWE refuses to discuss how to replace the revenue lost from ppv. As for six figures, minus travel costs, taxes (all paid by wrestlers as an "independent contractor," insurance, etc. 100k ain't that much. Most guys are complaining they make less now than a couple years ago and make less than the guys 10-15 years ago.


    As for athletes, I maybe wasn't clear there. In addition to the Shelton Benjamin/Brock Lesnar types, you won't see as many guys growing up wanting to be wrestlers as they hear the horror stories about TNA, indies, and about WWE. With UFC as an option too, you already saw guys that might otherwise consider pro wrestling heading to UFC. Vince wants an entire roster of Ortons if he could, not Bray Wyatts and Daniel Bryans. He wants that look and fewer and fewer guys will be around with that look. Heck look at what is in the indies and ROH now. They are full of guys that look like I could beat their ass and wouldn't even get a 2nd look at the gym.


    But again, do some googling about the complaints of wrestlers about pay in the network era.

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  170. I'm in a suburb of St. Louis on the Illinois side and although I don't see them all over the place like when I was growing up I see John Cena shirts quite a bit. I think the WWE has a business model to sustain themselves for quite a long time. As I said they have some of if not some weeks the highest rated television programs on cable. It feels like to me ALL of these arguments could have been made in 1994 and they turned out ok.

    I might be the only one but I can't wrap my idea around a company that is still doing top cable tv ratings, a company that posted record revenue and a company that just signed a 9 figure television rights deal is in any sort of short term trouble. Obviously any company could become obsolete Kodak had 90 percent of their market share in 1976 35 years later they file bankruptcy. I believe the WWE will still exist in mostly its same form now (Weekly TV, monthly events, house shows, merchandise, etc) when 7 year old starts college.



    Its certainly possible that the WWE won't last forever and that pro wrestling in general will fall even more out of the mainstream. However I don't foresee that happening in the next decade and predicting any failures or triumphs outside of that isn't even wild speculation. I'm not seeing a company that is posting record revenues and actively engaging in their future (new markets, the network, social media) hitting too hard of times anytime soon. The new financial environment will stabilize one way or another and when it does guys will adjust to lower salaries or they will be replaced by guys who view it as a pay increase same as any other company.

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  171. This outlier doesn't suddenly mean PPV is alive and well.

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  172. Exactly. This fight was the last gasp for boxing as a sport, and one of PPV's last gasps.

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  173. ....You do realize that this was a once-in-a-decade super fight, right?

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  174. I think Flair played a bunch of sports in high school/college and was a powerlifter before training with Gagne. He wasn't a pro but he was an athlete.

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  175. True story- my friend gave me $40 to watch this fight. I gave the 40 to Ric Flair. Wooooooo!!

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  176. Or just do what every other country in the world does and stop charging people to go to college. Just a thought.

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  177. You also gotta factor in that PPV wasn't available in nearly as many homes in 1996 as it is today, so that buyrate is quite impressive given PPV's still limited availability at the time.

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  178. Every 9 the country is a bit of a stretch.

    Germany and the Nordic countries are a small sliver of the world population.

    And uh, how do you plan to pay for this free schooling if not with Tax money.

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  179. The government would raise taxes with or without free schooling so it's not like that would ever be a determining factor in raising taxes.


    And besides, universities make billions off of college sports so it's not like they would ever go broke with free schooling.

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  180. Lol, yeah, specifically the top sports universities in the US make that much--what about all the non-division 1 schools who make shit all with athletics.

    Or me up in Canada, where university football games have like 20% capacity attendance.

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  182. only *dummies would say dummy's.

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  183. Thanks for the heads up on an errant auto correct situation, dickhead.

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  184. auto correct. right. I believe you.

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  185. Go back to watching your Benoit DVD, you psychopath.

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  186. I love that DVD. The alternate commentary for the Super J Cup 94 matches are gold. Cole and Tazz are hilarious and keep calling Dean Malenko a midget. Very funny!

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  187. Down vote.

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