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Cena beating Flair's record

Hey Scott,
If Cena is staying in the midcard and "I honestly don't think they see Cena at the top of the card any longer, and I think this midcard US title," does he beat Flair's world title record? Right now he has one less than Flair.
Thanks.

​a)  Right now he has about 6 or 7 less than Flair.  16 is only the kayfabed number that WWE history lists as official.  Even then you get into the grey area of whether the big gold belt World title counts that same as the WWE title.  

b)  I would be willing to bet that no one in WWE really cares that much anyway.  ​People online are about as worked up over this as they were for the possibility of Undertaker v. Sting, and it turned out that no one in the real world really wanted to run that match, either.  If #16 ever happens, it won't be a big deal, I can almost guarantee. 

Comments

  1. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 7:34 PM

    I never saw the big deal about it. Winning your 16th title just means that you've lost in 15 times.

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  2. Regarding Flair's "uncounted" reigns, the only example I can think of where a title change has still been counted after it was returned to the heel champion due to the nature of the switch is Diesel and Shawn winning them in Sept. 1995. Otherwise, as long the title is ordered to be returned to the champion, it doesn't count as two title changes.

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  3. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 7:48 PM

    He had a bunch of title defenses in the Caribbean where he had to job or the fans would riot and they were just ignored in the U.S. There were also a couple in the Pacific where he jobbed and won the title back a day or two later that were also ignored.


    If any one shouldn't count it's his last WCW one.

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  4. There were also swaps with Harley Race that were ignored as well. As we've gone over many times, the real count is upwards of 23 title reigns. That's not even counting nonsense like the Midnight Rider thing.

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  5. I really disagree. All the shots he's got since he's been on 15 you knew they weren't going to actually give it to him otherwise they would have built the angle around Cena getting #16 and tying Flair.

    When they put Cena back on top of the card, that's going to be the angle. The guy "written off as washed up" (because that's where they're going with him right now for some reason) tying "the greatest record in sports entertainment".

    They can even go multiple ways with that, with Flair cheering him on and cutting a crazed promo about how "CENA...YOU'RE STILL MAN NOW. GO WIN THAT BELT WOOOOOOO, BEAT THE MAN, AND BE THE MAN I KNOW YOU CAN BE WOOOOOOOOOOO" or they can have him pretend to cheer on Cena and then stab him in the back at a PPV to protect his record.

    Just wait, they'll do something with the 16 time angle when they finally decide to go there.

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  6. Yeah, I know. My point was that when a title is returned to a heel champion, it usually isn't counted in the title history. It's not unique to Flair.
    For example, Drew McIntyre was stripped of the IC title in 2010 by Teddy Long. The next week, Vince overruled that decision, and the belt was returned to Drew. In the IC title history, WWE counts that as one reign instead of adding another.

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  7. Eh I don't think winning a wrestling belt a bunch of times is that important. In the sense that someone wanted you the be the main guy I guess it's cool. But it's not like in real sports where someone or a team won many championships. Like someone said , In the kayfabe sense you won it a lot but also lost it a lot.

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  8. Not that I think much of Flair these days, but the idea of the most decorated champion in wrestling history being a man child in jean shorts just doesn't feel right.

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  9. I don't see how it's more ridiculous than a flabby man with bleached-white hair who wore sequined robes to the ring covering underpants that went to his belly button. Given the choice between those outfits I'll take the jorts, wristbands and basketball shoes all day.

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  10. I still thought you were talking about Flair until you said the word jean shorts

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  11. I don't think anyone actually gives a rat's ass if Cena ties or beats the "record," but yeah, I could see them doing this angle.

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  12. You'd be surprised. I remember people were freaking out about HHH's goal to eventually get to 17

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  13. Cena gets at least one more reign before its over but yeah it won't be anything more than a useless fact for JBL to spout at a Rumble or something. MORE TITLES THAN RIC FLAIR MAGGLE

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  14. If HHH didn't break Flair's record himself, I think it's pretty safe. I think he has too much reverence for the guy to take that away from him.

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  15. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 9:00 PM

    I recall Jarrett's IC title being held up and that being counted as 2 separate reigns. In other words, they just make this shit up as the go along.

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  16. That last sentence is why I don't care about the number of reigns they give someone. It's what they do as a champion that counts. Fuck how many time they "won" or "lost" it.

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  17. Whoooooo i get to post this again.

    Ric Flair's World Title Reigns


    1. Ric Flair over Dusty Rhodes September 1981
    *2. Ric Flair awarded the title back after Jack Veneno was stripped of it August 1982
    *3. Ric Flair awarded the title back after Carlos Colon was stripped of it January 1983
    *4. Ric Flair awarded the title back after Victor Jovica's victory was reversed February 1983
    *5. Ric Flair awarded the title back after the Midnight Rider relinquishes it February 1983
    6. Ric Flair over Harley Race Starrcade November 1983
    *7 Ric Flair over Harley Race in Singapore March 1984
    8. Ric Flair over Kerry Von Erich Japan May 1984
    *9. Ric Flair awarded the title back after Dusty Rhodes victory was reversed November 1985
    10.Ric Flair over Dusty Rhodes August 1986
    11. Ric Flair over Ron Garvin Starrcade November 1987
    12. Ric Flair over Ricky Steamboat Wrestlewar May 1989
    13. Ric Flair over Sting January 1991
    *14. Ric Flair is recognized as the 1st WCW World Champion during this reign January 1991
    *15. Ric Flair over Tatsumi Fujinami Superbrawl May 1991
    16. Ric Flair wins the Vacant WWF World Title Royal Rumble January 1992
    17. Ric Flair over "Macho Man" Randy Savage WWF World Title September 1992
    *18. Ric Flair over Barry Windham NWA Heavyweight Title Beach Blast July 1993
    19. Ric Flair over Vader WCW World Title Starrcade December 1993
    *20. Ric Flair over Ricky Steamboat for Vacant WCW World Title April 1994
    *21. Ric Flair over Sting WCW International Title Clash Of The Champions June 1994
    22. Ric Flair over "Macho Man" Randy Savage Starrcade December 1995
    23. Ric Flair over "Macho Man" Randy Savage Superbrawl February 1996
    24. Ric Flair over Hulk Hogan Uncensored March 1999
    25. Ric Flair over Jeff Jarrett Nitro May 2000
    26. Ric Flair awarded the title back after Kevin Nash relinquishes it Nitro May 2000

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  18. Hah, me too.

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  19. I absolutely loved his Nitro match with Jeff Jarrett, It was typical Russo bull shit booking but Flair at the end of Nitro with the belt was epic and glorious. Fun match too.

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  20. Hogan's 4 year run > Flair's multiple title runs

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  21. As I said in the other thread.

    Cena gets a wild hair and is like "You know what, I want to go after the tag titles and I need a partner to do so. Yo Sami..." They win them

    Then somehow he's put in a spot to win the world title again.

    Rumble comes around with Zayn winning it.

    Raw match where they lose the tag belts. Maybe Cena accidentally hits him with a chair causing the loss.

    Big brawl the next week

    Cena vs Zayn at mania with Zayn going over.

    Cena next night on raw. Puts Zayn over. Say's he's the guy for the future. The one that can take his place in the kids hearts. Walks away.

    Perfect way to end his career.

    But, that's just me.

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  22. Harlan Leverage IIIJune 7, 2015 at 9:49 PM

    And too much of an ego to let someone other than himself take it away.

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  23. Macklin, Man Without FearJune 7, 2015 at 10:05 PM

    I'd like to see Cena take the 16 record. Why not? He's the biggest star of his era and it'd be cool to see it happen.

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  24. That's not an example of what I meant. The title was vacant and Jarrett had to win a match, so it should be counted as a new reign.

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  25. #18 is official. Without it, he only has 15 official reigns.
    WCW counted 25 and 26 at first, then didn't later for some reason. When Flair was given the title by Nash, then defended it against Jarrett later that night, he was called a 16-time champion, but on the last Nitro the following year, the announcers were calling him a 14-time champ.

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  26. I meant WWE decision-makers. Now that he's an executive and has to look at the bigger picture, I would be surprised if even HHH gives a fraction of a fuck.

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  27. I think the more interesting question is if he ever main events a Wrestlemania again. I'd say probably, but wouldn't shock me if Rock/Cena II ends up being the last one.

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  28. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 10:23 PM

    I know at one point they weren't counting the COTC unification match with Sting. I think the other one that started being ignored was #15.

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  29. The Fujinami match at SuperBrawl and the 1994 unification match with Sting were never counted by WCW or WWE.
    When Flair left for WWE, WCW was calling him a 7-time champion, and when he returned in 1993, it was 9. The Windham one was 10, Vader was 11, and the 1994 Steamboat win, at first, was 12. For some reason, WCW dropped that pretty much immediately and went back to calling him an 11-time champion until the Starrcade 1995 win.

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  30. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 10:32 PM

    You're right, it was the Steamboat one, because while Flair asked that the belt be held up it was never officially vacated.

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  31. "Right now he has about 6 or 7 less than Flair. 16 is only the kayfabed number that WWE history lists as official."


    Sorry Scott but I think it smacks of convenience that you're just NOW acknowledging these non-kayfabed title reigns/changes just when it becomes more and more possible that the idea that Ric Flair MIGHT have his SACRED COW title record broken as opposed to say ten years ago when the threat to have his record broken was less likely back then.

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  32. You know I'm guy who used to write the document listing all of Flair's title reigns, right? It's what this site is NAMED after.

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  33. #2,3,4, and 9 rightfully shouldn't count. Otherwise Chris Jericho's first title reign happened in April 2000 even though it was reversed.

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  34. He'll go out on top one more time like HBK I'd guess.

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  35. The John Cena title is more important than the World title. Thus, he will definitely get another WM main event match.

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  36. from your January 10th, 2005 raw rant: http://insidepulse.com/2005/01/10/30933/

    "And speaking of people who can only win, all the time, your 10-time World champion, HHH, is the opening interview, fresh off padding his personal record with another belt. Personally I don’t care if he beats Hogan’s record, but let’s leave Flair out of it."



    If HHH was about 10-15 title reigns away, why were you so worried about HHH potentially catching up to him? Also your line, "but let's leave Flair out of it." smacks of confirmation bias when considering this context.

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  37. Dude.

    Go outside or something.

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  38. Dumb question, but what does RSPW stand for?

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  39. Man, seeing how heavily they pushed Bigelow on outset, he really didn't know how good he had it. Wish he hadn't have developed the attitude prob.

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  40. rec.sport.pro-wrestling, the Usenet group that used to be the hub for smarks before there was websites and forums and such.

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  41. That's right, I knew that.

    Wait, so how does Flair's title reigns factor into the site's names? I'm confused.

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  42. I JUST DON'T AGREE WITH THIS LOGIC BECAUSE WRESTLING IS A COMPLETELY SPORT ALL TOGETHER. BOXERS HAVE ABOUT 2 FIGHTS A YEAR. MMA FIGHTERS MORE OR LESS THE SAME. WRESTLERS HAVE APPROX. 200 MATCHES A YEAR. THE CHANCES OF LOSING IT IS A HIGH PROBABILITY. WHAT I THINK IS MORE IMPORTANT IS HOW LONG THE SAID WRESTLER HELD THE WORLD TITLE BELT.

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  43. Why? Just because I happen to remember something specific about this instance?


    You might as well been shouting "NERRRRRDDDDDDDD!" from your computer, as it would've been just as effective a comeback.

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  44. I wrote the RSPW FAQ, which included the question about Flair's title reigns and how many he actually had. I had an e-mail address of rspwfaq@hotmail.com to use for stuff related to it, so when I started doing my own blogs in the early 2000s I'd use that address to sign up and I ended with blahblahblah.com/rspwfaq, and from there rspwfaq.com. So there you go.

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  45. We're all nerds, we argue about wrestling on the Internet. You're being an psychotic nerd for angrily pulling up shit someone said 10 years ago about something so obscure and esoteric. Calm the fuck down, you spaz.

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  46. Did flair and race okay that with the front office before doing those title swaps?

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  47. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 11:07 PM

    Calm the fuck down, you don't have to scream at me.

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  48. Gotcha. Thanks.

    BUT WHY DID YOU SAY A THING 26 YEARS AGO THAF MIGHT BE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TODAY???

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  49. Adam "Colorado" CurryJune 7, 2015 at 11:09 PM

    Different circumstances here. The challengers won all those matches clean because if Flair won he wouldn't have left the building alive. Really those decisions were never reversed on camera or anything, the NWA just never said they even happened.

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  50. Cena has many years of coming back as a part-timer to main event if/when he decides to stop wrestling full-time.

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  51. Just because something is "obscure" or "esoteric" doesn't take away a points validity.

    "Dude. Go outside or something." & "Calm the fuck down, you spaz."


    This just makes it sound like your trying to deflect attention away from the actual point I was making.

    Also who said I was angry?

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  52. WWE loves to set new records. Remember how mad Vince was said to have gotten over Titus O'Neil's failure to beat Santino's record for quickest Rumble elimination this year? Cena will absolutely get another title reign--but it really doesn't matter. It's not like Cena is marketed as a living legend and sold on his title reigns like Flair is and was. Cena winning another 2 or 3 world titles will not tarnish Flair's legacy in any way.

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  53. I don't even know what your point is. This is so goddamn stupid.

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  54. Jeff was probably at his peak as a worker at that point -- always good for *** or better. He, Booker and Steiner were the best reasons to watch WCW around that time.

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  55. "Really those decisions were never reversed on camera or anything, the NWA just never said they even happened."



    For all intents and purposes, you can call those exhibition matches.

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  56. How about you try reading my previous posts and do this little thing they taught you in school called "reading comprehension".

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