Thursday, June 18, 2015

Cutting off pushes

Following up on the Barrett post, why does the company routinely cut what's getting someone over, then immediately blame the wrestler for not getting over.
Barrett and Bad News gimmick is one. The obviously one was Cesaro was got over with the Swing, then was told to stop(?!).  Is it that Vince is so concerned with having strong heels to throw at Cena, that he routinely cuts the proverbial balls off any heel getting positive reactions?   It's so confusing as a fan because it's like we're being told "NO don't cheer that guy, look he's a loser!" And so we stop cheering when Barrett loses to Truth three times in 2 weeks and then Barrett gets fired for not connecting with fans


​Yup, the Cesaro question on the Vince/Austin podcast was a real eye-opener, because here's the biggest star ever and one of Vince's guys telling him right to his face that he's mistreating Cesaro, and Vince still doesn't get it.  There's honestly no method to the madness that we're missing here; it's Vince going further off the deep end​ as he gets older.  

246 comments:

  1. I like it but as mentioned below, might be an iffy concept due to the fact no matches will be announced beforehand.


    Also won't it be a tad predictable in kinda the same way 2/3 falls matches are? It will come down to just the final match being the important decisive one and you can bet the team will be equal until that point every time (otherwise there'd be no point of even going through with the 7th match).


    Like I say though, I like the idea.

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  2. What is amazing about Cesaro is this is the third time he has been able to fight his way back up the card. Every time they give him shit, he turns it into gold.


    Although the push coming out of the battle royal wasn't really anyone's fault. Just one of those things that looks good on paper but doesn't work in reality.

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  3. Yeah, I figured you were kidding, but I still gotta plug my shit, get those eyeballs reading!

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  4. Can we do it in... reverse? I'd be down with that.

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  5. If any of you have relatives that are Vince's age and of a somewhat similar disposition, you know that there's no use fighting it or complaining. They do what they want and logic doesn't come into it. Things will change when Vince goes.

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  6. Watching this company depush anything that might make them money is mind-boggling. I keep bringing up Miz/Mizdow as my quitting point because Miz is still a really good heel, Mizdow got some serious face heat for his interactions, it was getting over....and they blow it off on RAW.

    Done with this company. I'll stay in the 80s-90s, TYVM.

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  7. Drunksuke "Dock" MuracoJune 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM

    Ah, I see what you did there. Well played.

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  8. I will say that as a heel, it is not Cesaro's job to get a crowd to pop. If he was asked to drop the swing for that reason, then there's some logic to it.


    On the other hand, it was a mistake to pair him with Heyman straight after Wrestlemania. A sound idea, but the wind was blowing in the other direction and they failed to see it.

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  9. I'd understand Cesaro being asked to stop the swing if there was an important plan that required him being a heel, but the guy just went straight to trading wins with Sheamus and other mid-carders.

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  10. It's Cesaro's job to get over. That is like saying as a heel, Vince should have forced Austin to stop using his Austin 3:16 catch phrase.


    Promoter's job is to go where the crowd takes you.

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  11. Their (Vince's) habit of misreading why an act is popular/over is almost incredible. Same applies to Rusev & Lana.

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  12. My issue wasn't that; my issue was Vince's vague "not connecting with the fans" comment. He got a move over that was corny in the 80s. That's connecting with the fans.

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  13. I agree with that.

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  14. Drunksuke "Dock" MuracoJune 18, 2015 at 7:10 AM

    Lucha Underground is good, though. ROH is good. Steen is good. NJPW is good. Nobody wants to talk about good things around these parts :( Bring on the Roman threads. Let's talk about how mistreated DB is. Let's talk about things that suck. Folks seem to associate with that which brings them down (or makes them feel normal, if you will).

    Can't say I understand it myself, but I also don't know what it's like to have the kind of life deemed complain-worthy, so YMMV.

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  15. That Vince podcast with Austin is one of my favourite WWE comedy segments of the year. Not only for the pushing dudes in pools story but how Vince claimed to understand the average American/common man.

    Part of me thinks that Dusty's theme song ("He's just a common man...") was something Vince commissioned for himself to play in his alone time and when Dusty came in, he grudgingly gave it up for him.

    Look at how hard Vince was clapping for it during the Dusty ten-bell salute! He had a look on his face like, "Fuck yeah, that's my jam!"

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  16. This is actually an easy one.


    Vince doesn't see foreigners with sing-songy accents as viable babyfaces. They're either mid card jobbers to the stars or they're heels.


    So despite overwhelming love from the crowd for Cesaro, and Barrett when he first started the Bad News gimmick, that's a nonstarter for Vince.


    So they have to be heels. And the crowd likes them too much because the should be babyfaces.


    So they're not getting the proper heat, and then Vince loses interest.

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  17. I've never seen a picture of wintry Australia. Does it ever snow there?

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  18. I still don't understand the Miz/Mizdow booking. After the 'mimic gimmick' started taking off, Miz should have been sending Mizdow to go take his place in matches as a stunt double. Mizdow can then, after a slow burn, get fed up with being treated that way by the Miz and turn on him.

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  19. It's pretty telling that Cesaro has always been paired with a manager. In an age where WWE doesn't even value them either.

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  20. He's Swiss goddammit!


    What's he going to do, pal, appease the heels to death ho ho ho

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  21. The frustrating thing is that Vince USED to absolutely have his finger on the pulse of what was going on. But like every other promoter in the history of ever, time passed him by.

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  22. He should be neither heel nor face.

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  23. We're in the entertainment business, pal!


    That sounds awful sporty

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  24. Meh, Vince seemed like a guy who was always a step behind post Hulkamania.

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  25. It would be a pretty cool storyline to have him acting as an avatar of his heritage in a storyline, i.e. not wanting to get involved. Kinda like Casablanca representing early WW2, where you had the Germans and the French resistance, and the uncommitted American in the middle of it having to choose a side.

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  26. In an era where the crowd sits in their hands for 90% of the roster, getting any kind of connection should get you the fucking rocket.

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  27. Are you asking about some sort of cowgirl situation?

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  28. I think he still had some magic in the Attitude era - he knew enough (or was desperate enough, which may be another issue) to run with Common Man Austin fighting his boss.

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  29. That is kinda my point, he didn't see that coming at all.

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  30. True. But I doubt Vince of today would have the wherewithal to do that.

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  31. I'd do a Lucha Underground review, but it'd be on a little bit of a delay. Maybe next day.

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  32. Case and point, this farce with Lana.

    She's too hot and blond to be a heel (dumb) she's a face so she can't be russian!? God damn retarded.

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  33. She also can't be a face strong, independent woman who represents a client like Paul Heyman. She has to be a girlfriend because she can only be defined in relationship to a man.

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  34. Who wants to boo a hot blond, pal? Look at those tits!


    Am I right or am I right?


    Kevin Dunn: Yes sir, Mr. Mac Mahon

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  35. He apparently really had to be convinced by others to go with a more adult approach. In 1996 he was still crying that WCW was using blood in its matches.

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  36. And ECW was doing their shit that would revolutionize the business way back in 93! Imagine if Vince stole from them sooner?

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  37. Stranger In The AlpsJune 18, 2015 at 7:27 AM

    I could give Lucha Underground a crack. I have Sling and El Rey is featured on the base package. Plus, I have not tackled live reviewing before so I'm up for a challenge.

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  38. Belee_Matt!_INDEED!!!June 18, 2015 at 7:29 AM

    He signed a contract.

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  39. We wouldn't have had those midget clowns at Survivor Series 94 I'll bet

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  40. Speaking of Lana, I think it would be awesome if she managed a stable that was thematically the European Union. One guy could be Greek, and keeps losing matches, and his German tag partner has to decide whether or not to keep helping him or just leave him behind. Cesaro doesn't want to be involved, and Lana is maybe a Chancellor Merkel type who has to make hard decisions for the good of the group.

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  41. Cesaro should be rich smug European. He looks great being smug. He looks like a fashion model in suit. He should be a mixture of Cesaro, Million Dollar Man and a touch of The Model....

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  42. The Vince podcast made it pretty clear why the WWE is like it is today. Completely out of touch, but while thinking he completely relates to and understands the fan of today. I don't think bad of him for it, it happens to people when their generation gets older. Problem is, the guy runs a billion dollar entertainment company.


    I think what the WWE needs is some young upstart with new ideas like Vince McMahon from 30 years ago. Perhaps it is HHH............promising signs in NXT, but only time will tell.

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  43. nope...she's going to get over huge walking Diggler out to the ring and then disappearing.

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  44. Fuck yeah. My comment has nothing to do with the original post. That CharlotteSPrindle can get it.

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  45. In the right hands, that could be a really great idea.


    In WWE's hands, it's Ludvig Borga, the evil Finn (because Finnish people are notoriously evil) who hates America for its pollution.

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  46. Belee_Matt!_INDEED!!!June 18, 2015 at 7:32 AM

    The Vince of today isn't being forced to change. His business isn't crumbling currently. Back then, they were on the brink of crumbling.

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  47. It's a variation of M$M/Virgil. The payoff was Virgil coming into his own.

    Instead, Mizdow gets buried yet again.

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  48. We will see what happens but I almost feel like Vince had huge plans for her turned her face and then.....found her less sexy and got bored.

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  49. Good lord, can I relate to that...

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  50. There's a Lana lets the hair down moment coming soon. Guaranteed.

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  51. Reminds me of Roger Ebert's review of Raging Bull where he talks about some men can only see women as a Saint or a Whore. There's no room to see them as people.

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  52. or Vince realized he only liked putting this much effort into a female character when he was on screen and could force them to hump and grind all over him and write in the script. "Then she makes out with Vince"

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  53. Stranger In The AlpsJune 18, 2015 at 7:35 AM

    18 different episodes of Hulk Hogan's Rock n Wrestling have been posted on the Network.

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  54. Cesaro should be like a Rick Rude style IC Champion right now who is a badass. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT VINCE?

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  55. I realize everything I've posted in like the last 15 minutes has been extremely bitterly negative, but yeah, it's just the guy who runs the show and how he views things.

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  56. yeah that was done so poorly. Years ago that match would have been a Wrestlemania blow off (it should have been). The angle would have been remembered, both guys get a big match out of it. Mizdow should have gone over and then launched into a starring singles role. Miz would have been better for it too.


    Instead a RAW match blowoff and now Mizdow dresses like Macho Man and teams with a wrestler that dresses like Hulk Hogan in low card matches.


    Boggles the mind indeed.

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  57. So you are telling me I should put him in airbrushed tights....and have him grow a mustache?

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  58. Lol, it's good to get it out. And I only complain because I've seen how great wrestling is when it's good.

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  59. It is the strangest entrance I have ever seen.

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  60. I for one support the return of mustaches to professional wrestling.

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  61. Poor Lane is ruined because of this.


    Rusev is heading that way too.


    Great job WWE.

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  62. This is why we need the vaudvillians back!

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  63. I'd totally buy him as a Swiss banker. Makes sense and is actually Zeitgeisty (i.e. we'll get it in ten years time).

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  64. Again Vince is what Verne Gagne had become in the 80s. He's just lucky there's no younger version of himself with the money and connections to put him out of business. The closest thing is Dana White.

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  65. Yeah, and that's still too apples and oranges. Storylines are a BIG reason why people get hooked on wrestling, and they just don't exist that way in MMA.

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  66. I've been watching a lot of the Legends of Wrestling roundtables on the Network in the last week or so and there's an episode where Mick Foley and Michael Hayes talk about a talent meeting Vince called in 1997 where admitted he's no longer in touch with pop culture and that guys needed to take greater ownership over their characters because he wasn't as dependable anymore.


    That was almost 20 years ago.


    Now he's 20 years further out of touch, and instead of telling guys to own their characters, he's shackled them to poor scripts.

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  67. Amazing what being humbled can teach you, and how you can totally forget the lessons.

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  68. Ce que je voudrais avoir maintenant....

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  69. I said it in the Barrett post and I'll say it again. Vince doesn't want stars anymore. He wants WWE to be the draw, the brand. Not any individual superstar. He feels as though he has been burned by Rock, Lesnar, Lashley, etc. leaving him high and dry after getting mega pushes. Vince is more comfortable having interchangable parts who can be shuffled up and down the card accordingly, all of whom are fiercely loyal to him because of this ingrained mentality now of "you're just lucky to be here in the WWE." Anytime somebody gets hot, and looks like they could "break out," they pull the plug almost immediately. CM Punk drops a pipebomb? Job him to Triple H and kill his momentum. The Wyatt Family is catching fire? Feed them to Cena for three months. Bad News Barrett is geting over? Strip away his gimmick and make him a jobber. Zack Ryder? Christian in 2005? Daniel Bryan? Cesaro? All of these guys could have been big draws for the company, albeit at different levels of the card, but Vince wants everybody to fall in line and know their place. There will never be a mega-hot over like rover star again. Not because Vince can't create one anymore. But because he simply doesn't WANT one. It's the 20 Ortons vs. 1 Cena argument you see often on 411 these days. Unless of course you are Roman Reigns- Vince would saw off his own hands if it was guaranteed to get him over.

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  70. I wish Cody'd kept his.

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  71. If there's one thing guaranteed to get a smile out of me every time, it's Japanese English.

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  72. It's just funny he's got a product right underneath his nose that's headed in the right direction. 1997 Vince would've seen NXT and been like "We need Raw to be like this. This is working."

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  73. With all due respect to Rusev, I don't see how or why Cesaro couldn't have gotten that same push. The smug foreigner super athlete coming in to embarrass America simply because he can. I guess you don't get the same cheap heat with Russia and Putin and all of that, but Cesaro is a better worker than Rusev and could have more easily transitioned into a different role once his heel run had run its course. Rusev is basically DOA at this point.

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  74. Him personally writing those near fatal Reigns promos from December/January was definitely a low point.

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  75. Biggest star ever, eh?

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  76. Austin qualifies as that yes

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  77. Biggest wrestling star, at any rate.

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  78. Definitely sold the most t-shirts

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  79. What time does the Daily Thread usually go up? Feels like it's been getting later.

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  80. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarJune 18, 2015 at 7:56 AM

    You know whose push was cut off early? Salvatore Bellomo. He could've been a star!

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  81. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarJune 18, 2015 at 7:56 AM

    Bayless i still recovering from his car accident.

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  82. This is what it feels like to me, too. If Lana was still a Vince pet project, she'd have left Rusev for Cena and would be making out with Cena every week. There's no way Vince would take a character he wants to personally usher into the #1 role in the company and pair her with Kurt Russell's second-rate stunt double.

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  83. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarJune 18, 2015 at 7:59 AM

    BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MISSING EPISODES OF PRIME TIME WRESTLING?!?!?!?!

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  84. Hey, he got to have his moment. Roddy Piper called him a "dump wop" in front of a packed arena!

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  85. lol No. Hogan and arguably even The Rock are both bigger stars than him.

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  86. I disagree entirely. HULK HOGAN is the bigger overall wrestling superstar in history.

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  87. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarJune 18, 2015 at 8:01 AM

    Guy's been made fun of on Piper's Pit, the Snake Pit, Prime Time, TNT. He really did the whole circuit.

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  88. Are you being sarcastic or is this legit? Vince is personally writing promos for people? This is horrifying.

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  89. Battle Kat LitterJune 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM

    For me, the concept of the 1990 Survivor Series was the greatest. I loved the four man teams (with team names) and the idea of a grand finale. So much storyline potential (e.g. you manage to survive with the help of your team, but end up outnumbered in the grand finale, partnered with someone you don't really get on with). So many possibilities. Would modern fans accept it? Maybe not, but I've longed for a return to this format for 25 years! Little did I know (as an 11 year old) that I'd still be waiting.... :(

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  90. Extant1979 - Extreme SuperstarJune 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM

    Suffering succotash!

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  91. in wrestling? No rock is not arguable. Austin and Hogan is a fair argument. I tend to fall on the Hogan side because he is more of a pop culture icon and did it for a longer period of time, even headlining two different companies in two very different roles. But I get the Austin argument. Rock though? Not a chance.

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  92. merchandising was nowhere near what it became in the attitude era in 84-88.

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  93. Stranger In The AlpsJune 18, 2015 at 8:04 AM

    Fill them in with some cartoons, pal!

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  94. And you'd be wrong, it's Austin and it's not close

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  95. The word was that he'd personally stepped in for those promos, which is why they were so jarring and out of sync with everything else

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  96. Best_in_the_WorldJune 18, 2015 at 8:05 AM

    Hey! Where's the Daily Thread? I don't want anyone getting in trouble for not posting it on time.

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  97. Cesaro basically did get the same push when he came in and became US Champion but then Vince got tired of him, he lost the US title, and he has been going from gimmick to gimmick since.

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  98. I know Austin technically "started" the boom (for the WWF anyway... Hogan/NWO were the first ones to start the boom of the 90's overall, though), but The Rock has records over Austin for higher ratings, higher PPV buys, and higher hose show/live event attendance.

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  99. It's up now. You guilted him into it!

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  100. The problem with most of these 'The fans were behind this guy so they cut off his push!' argument is that almost every time, the wrestler are supposed to be HEELS! The assertion that they should push a guy who is clearly getting the opposite reaction to what he is supposed to makes no sense.

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  101. Doctor FunkopolisJune 18, 2015 at 8:09 AM

    They should have pulled some sort of crap where Miz is also on a WWE Films contract that requires he be given the option of ducking out of any dangerous work.

    One on one match with John Cena? Miz in.

    MitB ladder match? Miz is out.

    At least until Sandow is about to grab the briefcase and then Miz makes a play for it and it's all legit because of his contract.

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  102. Wouldn't the better option be to switch the guy in that case?

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  103. Its not even close, but you've got it backwards.

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  104. seems close to me. Hogan put wrestling into the everyday pop culture. Hosted SNL, on MTV, hanging out with Mr. T, guesting on other shows, cover of Sports Illustrated. Main evented the biggest match of all time. He was on top for 7 solid years in WWF. His mere presence opened up tons of doors for WCW. Just saying Hogan was on the roster allowed the WCW business folks to get advertisers to talk to them, to get marketing folks to take a look at WCW. And then he did a complete heel turn and spent a couple more years on top, at a time the business was arguably bigger than in 85-88.


    Austin has some great credentials. he sold a shit ton of merchandise, albeit at a time when WWF really discovered how to merchandise compared to the past. He headlined highly rated shows. He was also, for a two year period, a pop culture icon. But it was all over very fast. From when he ascended at WM13 to WM19, not only as it only 6 years, but he was out with injury for about 2-3 of those years. I think the tipping point for me is the longevity and also the fact that Hogan is the guy that most non-fans think of when you ask them to name a wrestler.

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  105. Oh. Missed that.

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  106. That's just revisionist history that people have spouted over the years and now people reuse to believe otherwise. Vince and the WWF have especially always put forth the propaganda that Austin was bigger than Hogan.


    Even if you believe Austin is the bigger star, saying "it's not even close" is laughable.

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  107. at that point though, WWF was the draw, the entire roster was the draw. Rock was a big, fun star. He had charisma up the ying yang, but he wasn't drawing those crowds by himself. He was a cog in a well-oiled machine that was red hot.

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  108. Rock was going up against 2000 WCW while Austin was competing with peak NWO and Goldberg. Please.

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  109. Cena has been booed by a significant portion of the audience for a decade and the blame has been laid at the feet of his opponents for not getting a reaction of their own.

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  110. I would like Diva manager who manages other Divas. She could be a Bobby Heenan type who gets heat for the heel Divas but is not a wrestler. A role like that would be perfect for someone like a Summer Rae or even Cameron who are not that good at wrestling but could draw heat.

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  111. there is some truth to what you say. Maybe the better option is to create proper heels. Don't give them sing song catchphrases. Make them work like heels and actually cheat instead of relying on "characters" to let the fans know who is a face and who is a heel. I get why the WWE would be unhappy when heels keep having to be turned face, but it's on them for creating and booking badly in the first place.

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  112. No, because the same portion of the audience won't support him if he becomes a babyface. The problem is the audience. There is a significant portion of it that is just going to go against the grain, yet refuse to go away.

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  113. Nope. I was around for both eras. Not saying Hogan isn't a huge star or anything, he obviously was. But Austin shot wrestling into another stratosphere. It's easy to forget because his reign on top was shorter than Hogan's, but absolutely no one was a bigger star in wrestling than Austin from early 98- 2001 (well unless you listen to Michael Hayes or Tommy Dreamer talk about themselves).

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  114. Or better yet, drop the face/heel dynamic completely. Let people just go out there and do their thing and the fans can cheer and boo whoever they want and then book around those reactions accordingly. The reason why fans get so "rebellious" and cheer the heels and boo the faces is because people are tired of being told who to like. Scott made this point ten years ago during the Eddie/Rey Mysterio feud over Dominic. Fans don't give a shit about face/heel alignments anymore. They cheer strong characters and boo weak ones. They tore down this archetype in the Attitude Era to great success and then went immediately back to 'white hats vs. black hats' the minute WCW closed. It's painfully obvious that Vince never truly 'got' the "Get It" campaign he spearheaded on television 18 years ago.

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  115. It's a shame WWE has too much invested in their HD set. This idea would never work without pink walls.

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  116. See I don't but the longevity argument for Hogan being a bigger star. Austin's time at top, while short than Hulks, still was far bigger and had a bigger impact. It's easy to forget just HOW over Austin was during that time.

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  117. I checked, Austin over Hogan, I was right.

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  118. Rollins has been a chicken-shit vile heel for months and people here bitch and moan that his act is terrible. And if a guy who is supposed to be a heel actually gets boos, certain people here interpret that as 'x-pac heat' and determine that he is awful. If a heel gets booed, that's bad because people don't like him. If a heel gets cheered, its because he's good a being a heel and getting people to hate him, even though they don't boo him. It absolutely makes no sense.

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  119. That is easily the dumbest idea I have ever heard. I don't think you understand the purpose of wrestling.

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  120. It's not as if people weren't watching both shows. Speaking for myself, I was watching both shows in 1998 by flipping back and forth and keeping up with everything that was happening.


    Besides, Rock broke Austin's house-show attendance (in 1999) AND ratings record ('This Is Your Life' segment) while Austin was still there, and Austin couldn't break Rock's in return even when he returned in late 2000. Then fast-forward to 2002 where the company clearly knew who was hotter by then, as evidenced by Rock getting the big marquee match with Hogan at WM X-8 and being asked to put Brock Lesnar over as "The Next Big Thing" at Summerslam, while Austin was forced to wrestle Scott Hall in the midcard at Mania and then put over Lesnar in a random, unadvertised match on Raw (while he refused to do, though I agree with his reasoning, unprofessional or not.) hell, they even asked him to come back and job to THE COACH at Taboo Tuesday 2005.

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  121. Your monitor needs adjusting.

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  122. No, he wouldn't have. That's the point people are missing. Shane McMahon and Vince Russo had to essentially hold an intervention for Vince and force him to adopt the ECW model for the company's survivial. If Vince had his way, 1997 would have been spearheaded by Rocky Maivia, Marc Mero, and Brakkus leading the charge into full on bankruptcy. The guy just doesn't get it.

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  123. Yeah, don't you just HATE people like that?

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  124. Hogan created huge box office as a babyface for 6 years and huge box office as a heel for 3. And was a good draw for another 10 years outside of that. Austin was a huge box office draw for maybe 3 years.

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  125. I partially agree, but I think the face/heel dymanic being
    dropped in the Attitude era is a bit overplayed. Austin *was* a face,
    even if he was an asshole face. He was something of an anti-hero, but still a
    hero. Vince was clearly a megalomanical evil leader. There was nothing shades
    of grey about the storyline, even if the characters weren’t as squeaky clean as
    before. Rock turned face and heel a few times, and his character and behaviour
    did differ depending on which he was.

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  126. Forget about everything post 2000. Austin could've disappeared from the face of the earth in March of 2000 and he'd STILL be the biggest star in wrestling history. I'm not trying to just keep taking the other side of an agreement here, it's the truth. He saved the WWF in the late 90's. Without Austin, the Rock is probably swiping cards at a gym in south florida right now.

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  127. The issue is that WWE no longer knows how to create effective babyfaces. And when guys like Cm Punk, Daniel Bryan, and Zack Ryder catch on, Vince buries them because they aren't "his" guys. Heels would be a lot more despicable if we actually wanted to see the babyfaces beat their asses. But more often than not, the heel actually comes across as the face and vice versa. I.E. Owens/Cena.

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  128. I have those big bulky ones the WWE uses, but it's anchored into my desk. I checked the cords and the resolution, it seems good.

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  129. Daniel Bryan beat HHH and Orton and Batista and won the World Title at WrestleMania.

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  130. Nonsense. As big as the Attitude Era was, I don't know that I would say it shot wrestling into an entirely different stratosphere than Hogan's era did. Did WWF not have celebrities on their shows back then? They did. Did they not have a couple of specials on MTV that drew record ratings for that channel at the time? They did ('The Brawl To End It All' and 'The War To Settle The Score.') Were wrestlers not on talk shows all the time and were they not pretty much global celebrities? They were.

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  131. But those three (or 4) years were bigger and more popular than anything Hogan ever did. That's the argument. If the question is "who was around longer" than Hogan is the answer. If it's "who's the biggest star in wrestling history?" then it's Austin, all day everyday.

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  132. I'm not doing this with you again.

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  133. You cannot have been around during the mid-late 80s if you think that was the case. WrestleMania 3 is the biggest show ever.

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  134. Well yes, I understand the essential nature of wrestling is people doing bad things to the people we like, and wanting to see those bad people get their commuppance. But maybe instead of being such hard ons about who the bad people are and who the good people have to be, they can just "tell stories" like they allegedly do and let people determine for themselves who they want to support.

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  135. We'll never know if he "saved" the WWF or not. He was very important to their survival, but we don't know what would have happened if Austin hadn't been around. It's a huge What If that's impossible to answer.

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  136. I'm not trying to say Hogan wasn't a huge star, that would be idiotic. However, I stand by the "it's not close" argument b/c Austin was just that huge of a star, that he dwarfs Hogan by comparison. Austin's time was short, and it's easy to forget just how popular Austin 3:16 was.

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  137. Probably shouldn't. Got quite embarrassing for you.

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  138. The reason that Owens is coming across as the face is due to the 'you don't tell me who to cheer, I'm gonna do the opposite!' mentality of the warped portion of the audience. He is the heel.

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  139. I can and was. Factoring WM3 and all of 80's Hulkamania in, Austin dwarfs Hogan. That 98-01 run is at a different level than Hogan.

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  140. Bush league psyche-out shit. You're an amateur.

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  141. That's what I call a 'flash in the pan' by comparison. When you add up all the different tangibles and components, I think Hogan no doubt had a bigger impact in history than Austin did. Let's not forget that when someone else carried the company in 1988 as champion (Randy Savage), business was good but not quite as good as it was with Hogan as champ, and the same can be said for when Warrior was champ in 1990 as well. Compare that to Austin - when he was out in 2000, business continued to flourish and reach even bigger heights unlike when Hogan wasn't on top a decade earlier.

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  142. Battle Kat LitterJune 18, 2015 at 8:37 AM

    If Barrett continued his "Bad News" persona and changed nothing about it whatsoever, other than aiming his jibes at people the crowd hate, he would have gotten over huge as a babyface. Why would that have been a problem?

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  143. You should probably take some time and try and develop a response to my crushing argument. I'll wait.

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  144. AverageJoeEverymanJune 18, 2015 at 8:38 AM

    Hey, come on now, you could have just replied to Matt instead of going on about it and being a general douchebag. I know this might be difficult.

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  145. I think you can make the argument that Austin did so much for wrestling's popularity that the reason the momentum carried along without him was because of is impact. He made wrestling popular again to levels Hogan never did. That's not meant to be hyperbole either, he was just that popular. And that's saying something significant, since Hogan was also that popular (eg they were both bigger than the brand)

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  146. Yeah but Cesaro was never featured and protected in the way Rusev was. He held a belt for a long time and did jack all with it. Rusev was prominently pushed as put over on commentary weekly as a monster and a threat to our national security.

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  147. Why didn't you just pull out that solid counter a few posts back and we could've saved each other keystrokes

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  148. Because nobody is supposed to get over anymore.

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  149. In what way did he make wrestling *more* popular than Hogan? I'll restate something I said earlier - "Did WWF not have celebrities on their shows back then? They did. Did they not have a couple of specials on MTV that drew record ratings for that channel at the time? They did ('The Brawl To End It All' and 'The War To Settle The Score.') Were wrestlers not on talk shows all the time and were they not pretty much global celebrities? They were."

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  150. OK, if you don't think Austin in the late 90's was more popular than "the war to settle the score" and Liberace being a time keeper, than I don't know what to tell you. There is an argument to be made that Hogan might be more popular, but I don't think that's it.

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  151. The reason Owens comes across as the face is because he is saying and acting on the things that a majority of the fan base have been complaining about for years regarding the Cena character. Meanwhile, Cena acts like a total dickhead heel as always, saying that Owens isn't a real man 24 hours after he beat him clean as a sheet, and exploiting his work with cancer kids to himself look like Jesus. If they really want Owens to be a heel, they shouldn't be putting him up against Cena, who over half the crowd has treated like an obnoxious heel for 10 years now.

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  152. Wow. You really don't grasp the basic concepts of storytelling.

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  153. When you just keep busting out the same non-fact over and over again, eventually I get bored with constructing logical truth-based arguments. So 'Nope' it is.

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  154. You just think you're bored talking with me, because I'm intellectually superior to you and it hurts your head.

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  155. Don't forget to give away a turkey to the winner!

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  156. Well then the Austin push didn't make sense, because the people got behind him when he was a heel.

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  157. i dont forget how over austin was, I think some forget how over Hogan was. Austin's time at the top was not "far bigger." In some ways it is comparing apples and oranges with business still being about house shows the first couple of years of Hogan's reign. TV was still designed to sell live events and they only had 4 ppvs even at the very end of Hogan's time at the top (His final WWF ppv was the 5th in KOTR). I think people get hung up on t-shirts and cable ratings for Austin, when WWF wasn't the merchandising machine in the 80s that they were in the atittude era and they didn't have a "Raw like" program then either.
    And how was the impact bigger for Austin? He helped run some competitors out of business? So did Hogan. And what Vince and Hogan were doing in 84 was far more revolutionary than what Vince was doing with austin on top in 98. WWF was reinventing the business in 84. They popularized using first closed circuit and then ppv. they expanded nationally. They ran 3 crews of house shows. What was Austin's impact? Is wrestling more vulgar long term? Nope, closer to Hogan's era than Austin's era. Is wrestling better off now than when Hogan left? not really. Business was taking a downturn in 92/93 as Hogan left WWF, but it took an upswing with him on top in WCW. Is Austin's legacy one of keeping WWF forever popular with the mainstream? Nope. WWF isn't mainstream like i was in 98 or 87. In fact it was while Austin was out with injury that WWF really put the finishing touches on WCW in 2000, then bought the corpse.


    I'm just not seeing this impact Austin had that was so much bigger than the guy who not only spearheaded the end of the territories and the ppv era, but also spearheaded the monday night wars boom almost as much as Austin did. For 2 is bigger than 1, even if you could slightly argue that Austin's "1" is 1.1 or 1.2.

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  158. actually there was far more "shades of gray" in 96 and into 97 than during the attitude era. If you rewatch from summer of 97 to WM17, the faces and heels were pretty defined. What changed is that faces committed "heel like" acts and still got cheered, but the announcers still treated them as faces, they were booked against heels, etc. And even that wasn't that revolutionary. Part of Hogan's initial appeal when he came in back in 84 was that he fought fire with fire, cheating if the heels cheated. It was a far cry from Backlund, Tito, etc.

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  159. I get the joke, but seriously, doing a show-long, show-wide card like that isn't a bad idea at all. Of course, you'd have to announce the card ahead of time, a whole PPV of "one unknown person will face another unknown person" would never sell, but other than that, it could work.

    They kinda did that with "inVasion" and "Survivor Series, 2001", but the first had no prize and the second wasn't cumulative.

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  160. I guess they never should have pushed Austin, Rock, Cena, Punk, Bryan, or plenty of others. They were heels that were getting cheered.

    Sure, maybe they weren't "doing their job" in some way, but if the person is drawing a reaction, and that reaction could sell merchandise and PPVs, why not run with it?

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  161. Just thought of something...

    If everybody at Raw started chanting along with Trips or Steph whenever they say "Best for Business"--would Vince bury The Authority?

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  162. James M. FabianoJune 18, 2015 at 9:37 AM

    I am wondering now if Vince Russo WAS more than half of the "brains" behind the AE. Seems Vince wanted an excuse to go back to PG, but he had to wait 6 years for one.

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  163. James M. FabianoJune 18, 2015 at 9:38 AM

    Wasn't he an E(astern)CW champion?

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  164. James M. FabianoJune 18, 2015 at 9:38 AM

    If Jeff Jarrett had any brains, he'd try and sign Cesaro, Barrett, Ziggler, et al away for GFW...instead of rejects from other companies and never-wases. I still think misused WWE talent could provide someone with a Radicalz Moment.
    Note I didn't say TNA should...cause that is beyond help.

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  165. Really? Vince once could accept he couldn't have total control. None of us can be in control. Vince had his biggest moments of prosperity when outside factors took over. This attitude of they have to be the way I wanted them to be is Vince playing god and he always failed that way. Maybe if I was watching, I wouldn't care about these bland workers and wish for the salad days of the Brock and Sock connection.

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  166. Just because wrestling used to be one way doesn't mean that it can't evolve. Look at "The Sopranos" or "Breaking Bad", where legitimate heels were the main draws - if the fans are willing to pay to have a non-traditional protagonist on top, why not try it?

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  167. AverageJoeEverymanJune 18, 2015 at 9:49 AM

    right cause no wrestling fan would boo a hot chick that they cannot ever get who tells them exactly how much better she is than them.

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  168. He got it as a means to an end, nothing more.

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  169. No, they would just get triple the TV time they already do.

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  170. The whole problem with Rollins is the circus around him - J&J, Kane, and so on. He is getting constantly dragged down by the story circling him.

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  171. Overall, maybe Rock, probably not Hogan.

    In wrestling alone? No, he's got them both beat by every possible metric. That's been confirmed by multiple people that would know.

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  172. AverageJoeEverymanJune 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM

    I think you mean The car is still recovering from its Bayless accident.

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  173. AverageJoeEverymanJune 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM

    "dump wop" sounds like a one second clip from a Dubstep "song"

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  174. Oh it will be on the pole, don't you worry. . . .

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  175. Team Challenge Series!!!!

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  176. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 18, 2015 at 10:46 AM

    That's because in TNA, most everything is nothing that hasn't been done better elsewhere.

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  177. kbwrestlingreviewsJune 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM

    Angle did it one night on Impact about a year ago.

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  178. CruelConnectionNumber2June 18, 2015 at 10:50 AM

    Zero One? Is that the buyrate?

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  179. I want to see one whole Raw as a Battlebowl/Lethal Lottery kind of deal. Do a few hours of random draw tag matches, end the show with a battle royal with the match winners, and the winner of that gets a title shot at the next PPV or Network special.

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  180. CruelConnectionNumber2June 18, 2015 at 10:51 AM

    Kofi is only working Brock because Brock had a pre-existing visit to Japan scheduled and WWE is covering his flight/expenses in exchange for him making a quickie 3 minute appearance and squash to get viewers on the Network.

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  181. Beat me to it.

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  182. lariatoooooooooooooJune 18, 2015 at 11:33 AM

    "Charlotte is one of the fastest learners I've ever seen in wrestling (although being the daughter of Ric Flair will do that)"


    Counterpoint: David.

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  183. Fuck I love ROH. Cedrick turning heel is awesome. He will be so good at it. I think C & C are supposed to reunite, though, so that will be interesting to see.

    Adam Cole is my favorite promo in the business. I'm loving the heel v heel battle of Bullet Club v Kingdom and how the Bullet Club are somehow faces in the States. That feud is great because it's playing out in NJPW and ROH. Now that Cole's back, it should hit epic levels.

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  184. Charlotte hasn't made much strides in the last year. Most of her improvement came in the second half of 2014.

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  185. That's always been the problem, the folks in charge at TNA are under the delusion they're making Vince sweat when the truth is, WWE barely acknowledges they even exist.

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  186. I like this idea, sort of like a Ryder Cup of wrestling. Heck, you could copy the Ryder Cup directly and make a U.S. team (led by Cena, of course) against an international team.

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  187. Team Challenge Series brings back great AWA memories... I like this concept assuming it can be executed properly and there's no Football Challenge match.


    (PS - remember when the AWA was good? Martel/Bockwinkle interview after Martel won the AWA belt: https://youtu.be/NKnxcfdbSY0?t=30s)

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  188. ROH put up a video online where Alexander isn't responding to Coleman's calls.

    They are re-uniting at the ppv but I'm almost certain Cedric is turning on Caprice either after caprice gets pinned or during the match leaving him alone against war machine.

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  189. That seems to work out. But I don't know if I can trust you.

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  190. Yeah, but what's the kayfabe reason?

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  191. Sometimes I forget how Canadian you are.

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  192. "Fans chant “all your fault” at Veda Scott."


    Never change RoH. And by never change I mean change, because you're creepy and weird.


    "ACH is celebrating the Japan cross over by dressing up as Luffy D. Monkey of One Piece fame. "


    I always knew I liked ACH, now I know why...

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  193. But were they wrong? She doesn't toss Moose that wrench, Cedric doesn't take it from him and clock him with it. It is kinda on her. And I think it says a lot that it was Stokely Carmichael (NOT Ernesto Osiris; he changed his name a LONG time ago) that helped a semi-conscious Moose to the back while Veda just vanished.


    White women: Contributing to the downfall of black men since the dawn of time.

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