OK, so Amazing Spider-Man 700 and Avenging Spider-Man 15.1 are officially out today and now fair game for discussion, so let's talk about this so we can watch Jesse's head explode live on Disqus.
Spoiler space ahead for those who are still waiting to read it or don't care...
So the big final twist in the story is that Peter DOESN'T find a way to reverse the brain swap with Dr. Octopus, and in fact Peter dies in Ock's body after delivering one final speech about power and responsibility, leaving Otto Octavius as the Superior Spider-Man. Now honestly, I don't think anyone is buying that this shift to the status quo is going to last past 12 issues or so, or that they won't start up Amazing Spider-Man again with 701 at some point, but I just kept waiting for the shift back to the status quo at the end of the issue and it just never came. That's a pretty cool storyline twist in that Peter's "death" made sense within the context of the story and wasn't just a big twist ending like Cap getting executed or the other "shock" deaths. Now, obviously this is a pretty easy one to un-twist when they need to: Just say that they never swapped brains and just THOUGHT they did, so Peter was somehow convinced he's Octavius and his subconscious is buried under the Ock persona or something like that. Or that the machine over-wrote their memories and brain patterns, but didn't actually switch minds. Something like that.
Anyway, I liked the issues, and I'm intrigued to see where Octo-Spider goes, so thumbs up from here.
Spoiler space ahead for those who are still waiting to read it or don't care...
So the big final twist in the story is that Peter DOESN'T find a way to reverse the brain swap with Dr. Octopus, and in fact Peter dies in Ock's body after delivering one final speech about power and responsibility, leaving Otto Octavius as the Superior Spider-Man. Now honestly, I don't think anyone is buying that this shift to the status quo is going to last past 12 issues or so, or that they won't start up Amazing Spider-Man again with 701 at some point, but I just kept waiting for the shift back to the status quo at the end of the issue and it just never came. That's a pretty cool storyline twist in that Peter's "death" made sense within the context of the story and wasn't just a big twist ending like Cap getting executed or the other "shock" deaths. Now, obviously this is a pretty easy one to un-twist when they need to: Just say that they never swapped brains and just THOUGHT they did, so Peter was somehow convinced he's Octavius and his subconscious is buried under the Ock persona or something like that. Or that the machine over-wrote their memories and brain patterns, but didn't actually switch minds. Something like that.
Anyway, I liked the issues, and I'm intrigued to see where Octo-Spider goes, so thumbs up from here.
Fails on a bunch of levels for me.
ReplyDelete1) If it's that easy to undo, what's the point?
2) If it's launching a new series and not just existing as a six issue arc, everyone of Peter's friends and fellow superheroes is an idiot for not seeing through it immediately.
3) If, as the issue suggests, Mary-Jane sleeps with Doc Ock impersonating Peter... that is an exceptionally creepy storyline that will just serve for 'drama' later on. And not good drama, but 'was it rape?' drama. Which seems needless for a kids comic. (And by rape, I mean Doc Ock impersonating Peter sleeping with Mary-Jane using false pretense, and leading to Mary-Jane having PTSD when it's over and she knows Doc Ock manipulated her into sex.)
Maybe Vince Russo snuck into Marvel management?
ReplyDeleteI'm not a big comic fan (I read The Walking Dead and American Vampire though) and Scott's point about this story being easy to "un-twist" got me thinking. For those who do read a lot of comics, does it annoy you when they do things like that to return to the status quo? I read a lot of wiki articles on comic characters to pass the time at work and it seems that quite a few story lines end with "such and such didn't die b/c it was a clone" or it was an alternate universe or something else like Scott described. Does that bother you (comic readers I mean) at all? Not flaming or anything just something I've always wondered.
ReplyDeleteThe other possibility is that Doctor Strange "detects an error" or somesuch. I would imagine, though, that MJ is the one who twigs to the issue first.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you're a fan of Joss Whedon's "Dollhouse" but it seems very similar to Echo's storyline on that show. Presumably, Otto essentially 'downloaded' Peter's personality and 'uploaded' his own, so there is a backup copy of Peter Parker running around somewhere.
ReplyDeleteI don't know...
ReplyDeleteThe story is a logical extension off what's happened, and WOULD be fine for a six issue arc. It's been done before in properties such as Buffy. BUT... it's launching a new core Spider-Man title. Which means, minimum, 12 issues. So a long-term storyline. Which... I think requires characters to be brain-smashingly stupid. Heck, Daredevil would figure it out in seconds using Radar Sense and Wolverine knows when people lie.
That's when the storyline goes to shit. Peter's now on so many teams that someone would notice something was off.
The thing is that the status quo is often better than the changes are.
ReplyDeleteAlso the fact that if you can't write a good Spider-Man story without an arbitrary twist, that's a failing on your part rather than a failing with the character.
"Long term" is relative, given that we know there's another movie in the pipeline. Since comics follow other media booking, we can expect a reversal sooner than later. In the meantime, that's $3.99 I can put toward something more palatable. Like watching paint dry.
ReplyDeleteIf they did a...
ReplyDelete[BUFFY SEASON FOUR SPOILERS]
...storyline similar to Buffy and Faith's switch in Season 4 where Faith has difficulty being treated with respect because she hold such self-hatred but then she begins to accept the role of hero, that would be something. (Your comment on manipulating someone into sex made me think of the whole Faith/Riley hookup.)
Which makes it even sillier that they're launching a new book based off a twist that everyone knows won't mean anything by 2014.
ReplyDeleteYou know what the fans would probably like? Say that there had been a third clone, but this one had a "blank" mind...
ReplyDeleteThat was pretty creepy on it's own merits, but they DID follow up on how awkward that'd make Buffy-Riley's relationship... and Buffy even went to kick Faith's ass over it. The problem here being Doctor Octopus was only ever heroic in Spider-Man 2, in the comics he's always been an absolute asshole. Or a goof. Which I get raises a question of 'can he be fixed', but...
ReplyDeleteThis will be fine until its back to Status Quo when the next Spiderman movie comes out. Marvel does it every time.
ReplyDeleteYes especially when they do it for the sake of a Movie coming out.
ReplyDeleteI'm more interested in the potential fallout from the switch more than anything. That was where the Buffy/Faith thing really spun the rest of the series in a new direction. Faith started her redemption. Buffy's trust issues flared up again, putting unrecoverable distance between her and Riley. Etc..
ReplyDeleteAs far as "can he be fixed", well... we saw Peter and MJ essentially sell their baby to Mephisto to save Aunt May and dying Aunt May turned out to be a *really* dedicated actress hired by Norman Osborne. At some point, we just have to hold our collective breath and dive in on some of these characterizations.
There's actually an academic name for it: "The Tyranny of the Serial."
ReplyDeleteBecause comics are intended to be an ongoing, never-ending serial, you can't stray too much from the original "mission statement" or you'll risk losing the audience. That's why some people loved Dan Slott (and Brand New Day) for returning Peter to being a shiftless smartass who lives with his Aunt.
And it has 'real-world' implications too because we tend to conceptualize reality through narrative. That's why whenever we consider restricting handguns or semi-automatics, one of the first arguments you hear is "The founding fathers would have said..."
Because you can't stray too far from your origin without losing your identity.
Just waiting for Jesse to wake up from his Jolt Cola and Gundam Wing coma...
ReplyDeleteThis status quo swap sounds like something they would do with Ultimate Spider-Man, but since that Spidey is a completely different person now, it rules it out for the Ultimate universe.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised to see this switch last right up until the month of the new Spider-Man sequel's release (what is that, 2015?). Look how long Marvel kept Capt. America killed off before bringing him back. While I'm not really a Marvel guy, I'll admit they've stuck to their guns a number of changes the last few years.
Which is bizarre anyway. The movie is going to make money no matter what's in the comics. The same amount of boost to the comic sales will be boosted no matter what the storyline is. What happens in the movies is irrelevant to the profit that Disney will make. Amazing 2 will never be great, but probably just barely avoid being bad. It will make almost exactly as much as the last one.
ReplyDeleteNow. As to returning to Status Quo? I think a year long arc is fine. I like the idea of Peter's Psyche being buried down there. I could see a slow burn of people figuring it out. (ala the Buffy's Sister Dawn storyline) I don't see Doctor Octopus having sex with Mary Jane, so they'll avoid that whole mess, however they get an interesting side story of Mary Jane cheating on Peter on account of no nookie for a year. It could all be interesting assuming they had an actual plan and aren't just flying by the seat of their pants.
Of course another option is to just bring Doc Ock back from the dead for the fifth time. Maybe have Punisher team up with Dr. Mephisto to go search for Peter/Doc Ock in hell. Or Thanos could just bring him back using the Reality Gem...though of course, he got trapped in the dimension without death during the whole War of Kings/Thanos Imperative mess.
ReplyDeleteYou mean like Human Torch death?
ReplyDeleteWinter Soldier as Captain America?
Peter Parker being open about his ID?
The XMEN in San Francisco?
Marvel sticks to one thing: Jean Grey being dead... oh wait...
Jean Grey returning actually makes sense though because if she is the Phoenix, it's sort of imperative that she die a lot be reborn a lot. For some reason that one fact made me never bothered by her coming back.
ReplyDeleteWait, they did the dying actress thing again?
ReplyDeleteSpider-Man is probably my favourite superhero but my god, his comics have been terrible. From the Clone Saga to One More Day to Alpha, with some bright spots here and there, Spidey's comics are just so blah to me.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Marvel treat him so poorly? A flagship character should have the most talented writers in the company working on him. I mean, Spidey's had some great all-time stories like the Death of Gwen Stacey, Kraven's Last Hunt and Venom's first story arc...but those were decades ago!
I'm not a big Bendis fan but he's done some good work on Ultimate Spider-Man and his current Spidey of Miles Morales is a LOT more interesting that the normal universe Peter Parker.
I don't like it. No sir. Not one bit.
ReplyDeleteAlso off topic but I'm slightly caught up on Batman and Night of the Owls was incredibly disappointing. I hear Death in the Family is no better.
Yeah, it always bothered me that they never bothered getting guys like Warren Ellis (who writes an amazing Norman Osborn) or Ed Brubaker (who did amazing work with Captain America) to write their flagship superhero as opposed to guys like Slott and Bendis.
ReplyDeleteGwen Stacy is still dead.
ReplyDelete...right?
lulz
ReplyDeleteI haven't been following it (not a big Marvel guy) but to me it seems like 1990's gimmickery (Death of Superman, Knightfall, Clone Saga etc...) done to be shocking and boost sales but with no real long term impact... which every knows, so it becomes hard to get invested in it.
ReplyDeletei think so. i dont read spidey all like that though.
ReplyDeletejean grey is one of my favortie characters ever and for her to be dead for a decade is pissing me off.
ReplyDeleteive been waiting for the day she comes back and her and wolverine hook up in front of scott... YES IM WAITING FOR COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS TO HOOK UP.
FUCK. YOU. ALL.
In real-person logic, you're right. But with comics becoming more events-driven -- I mean, even a 3 or 4-issue arc is treated as AN EVENT now -- I imagine they see this as another short-term boost until they can bust out with The Glorious Return Of Peter Parker, Because You Demanded It And Pay No Attention To Us Making Him Look Like Andrew Garfield.
ReplyDeleteTo Whedon's credit, though, it was never posited that Echo was a ::positive:: development for anyone concerned.
ReplyDeleteIf they can figure out a way to get Bruce Banner back into the Hulks brain after he was incinerated by a nuclear warhead they can switch Peter and Doc Ock back. What I'm curious about is will this me there will be no one-liners? Will he be a more serious Spider Man that kills? Because that is what they're doing with the Scarlet Spider. (Which I've been enjoying, BTW)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, back to "Death in the Family"
Doc Ock is going to get his swerve on with other chicks and either Aunt May or MJ will figure t out.
ReplyDeleteI can see this"
ReplyDeletePeter and MJ are alone, lights go off.
MJ: "You want me to WHAT?!?!
Peter: "Come on..."
MJ: "You've never asked me to do that before...when did you become a freak?"
Peter: "Don't knock it 'til you try it."
MK: "OK (grabs vibrator off of the nightstand.."
I just finished Spidey #700 and its a shark jumper for me. Doc Ok becomes the 'Superior Spiderman??' Really???? It frankly seems like a truly awful idea for any number of reasons, but most of all because there's no chance that its going to stick. the most likely scenario is the aforementioned..they didn't really swap at all..and Peter's mind begins to encroach and retake the body. its just silly. If you wanna kill off the character because his story has been told...fair enough. But replace him with someone new whom we might actually like and care about. On the other hand, a lot of folks felt the same way about the death of Spiderman in the Ultimate universe, and now they've grown to love Miles Morales...as have I. So I guess to be fair...i must give this new twist a chance...but at first glance...it sucks at a very high degree of suckularity.
ReplyDeleteI bert Japanese fans are going nuts right now at the prospect of tentacle rape.
ReplyDeleteLet's go Jesse. I don't have all day.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure he has a lot to say but can't get it all out.. This is Jesse right now:
ReplyDeletehttp://danielctw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SmashingHeadOnKeyboard.gif
Did Doc Ock turn face or something? Or is the new Spidey a tweener or something?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure they'll make it a bit an Az-Bats situation.
ReplyDeleteI like change in my comics, but i like organic changes.
ReplyDeleteScott becoming leader of X-men is organic.
Spider-Man and MJ not being married due to a deal with Mephisto is not organic.
But for years Ive waited for the New Mutants to become the XMen and only Warpath and Cannonball have done so.
azrael... turrible, just turrible
ReplyDeleteI disagree. I think Dan slott is a great spiderman writer.
ReplyDeleteMy apologies, I wasn't saying Slott wasn't a good writer, in fact, he wrote some of my favorite Spidey stories in recent memory. I'm just saying I would have loved to have seen some heavy hitters write Spider-Man.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason Cap/Steve was kept dead for longer than expected was because Bucky ended up being an awesome Captain America and that storyline was really strong. Plus, Bucky-as-Cap was one of those 'logical progressions' in comics that was alluded to in a post earlier in the thread. It's the same reason that Wally took over as Flash with nobody batting an eye, or how strong the Batman comics remain when it's Dick Grayson filling in for Bruce.
ReplyDeleteDoc Ock as Spidey, however, just creates way too many creepy questions.
He'll probably rant about how that piece of shit Spiderman is holding everyone down and how Doc Ock should hire Green Goblin to do his dirty work.
ReplyDeleteBoth are great.
ReplyDeleteWent to my local comic book store today and they were running a best book of 2012 poll. Batman was 1. Amazing Spider-Man was 2. Poor Jesse.
ReplyDeleteIt's possible some writers stay away from Spidey (despite the prestige) simply because it's such an iconic character and you can only do so much with the titles given what Marvel will let you do with their main guy.
ReplyDeleteBrubaker, for instance, is a guy whose best work comes in gritty, semi-realistic comics and low-powered characters (Cap, Daredevil, Batman, etc.) so I'm not sure how he'd translate to writing a straight superhero like Spidey.
It's possible some writers stay away from Spidey (despite the prestige) simply because it's such an iconic character and you can only do so much with the titles given what Marvel will let you do with their main guy.
ReplyDeleteBrubaker, for instance, is a guy whose best work comes in gritty, semi-realistic comics and low-powered characters (Cap, Daredevil, Batman, etc.) so I'm not sure how he'd translate to writing a straight superhero like Spidey.
I just finished reading it, not sure what to say really. It was a great well done issue, so many little things throughout that made me grin and smile, yet the ending. I dunno yet, I do think it could be fun for a year or so, and prolly eventually lead to Ock returning Peter's brain once he truly realizes how horrible it was of him to do this in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSlott is awesome on the spidey ive read (the storyarc with Menace w/ Obama) and Bendis is great on USM, but its just when he writes team books everyone ends up sounding like Ult Spidey and thats where I have the problem.
ReplyDeleteSpidey isnt an A-list book, and plus he is bulletproof in terms of him sucking because people are gonna buy it JUST BECAUSE.
ReplyDeleteSame goes with XMen. I dont know how many YEARS i pissed money away on Uncanny and it was turrible... just turrible.
For those wondering, it's not just a usual switch, Ock has all of Peter's memories so he can't be tripped up on anything he wouldn't know as he knows everything Peter knows.
ReplyDeleteStill, I know Ock isn't Norman Osborn evil but still clearly crazy and responsible for a couple dozen murders at his own hands (or tentacles) so pretty hard to root for him now.
Plus, can't accept Peter Parker, whose whole character is about never giving up, just letting Ock stay in his body on the off chance the memories of a good man can turn a long-time killer and egotist good. Steve Dikto is probably rolling in his grave and he's not even dead yet.
Thanks for the replies everyone. Good points all around.
ReplyDeleteHoly "spider-clone" debacle, Batman
ReplyDeleteScott Snyder's work on Batman has been great but I kinda miss Dick Grayson as Batman. It felt really fresh and new with Morrison on Batman and Robin and Snyder on Detective.
ReplyDeleteYou know, the clone thing didn't bother me as much as it did other people. This actually irks me a little bit.
ReplyDeleteI was referring to the Norman Osborne one, but it occurs to me that Mysterio tried the same thing in the mid-70s.
ReplyDeleteI like Death in the Family. Night of Owls was OK.
ReplyDeleteAs a concept, a once evil man trying to be good has potential. Slott is good at long term story planning, I'm sure the 12-15 part story he has planned will be worth reading.
ReplyDeleteAlso the superior spider man cameo in last months daredevil was pretty funny.
What precisely makes Octavius a "Superior" Spider-Man? One second, he talks about using his brilliant mind, but the next, he's openly admitting that he's never actually won before.
ReplyDeleteOh, I totally read that wrong. I thought you meant the Aunt May that was shot was another actress hired by Norman Osborn, implying he used that plan again.
ReplyDeleteHe's an evil bastard and Marvel writers actively LOVE unredeemable bastards more than the actual heroes.
ReplyDeleteSee Bendis outright saying Norman Obsorn was a better hero than Captain America, because was a murderous bastard who did not have the redeeming qualities that Cap had, let alone Magneto or Venom had.
The clone saga, I should note, has been redeemed in large part because two years after it ended (and Marvel recovered it) they threw away all the hard work to fix the franchise by doing the God-awful '99 reboot with Byrne and Mackie. Which was so godawful that it basically overnight caused the Spider Clone Saga to be re-evaluated as far as "As bad as it was, it was never THIS bad".
ReplyDeleteAnd while Slott's abortion still hasn't rehabbed THAT darkest hour (even though Slott's run has sold WORSE than the Mackie/Byrne run) and all, Slott's hack writing has basically redeemed Howard Mackie's name as far as Slott's Spider-Man run basically rendering him into the throne Mackie once held as "Worst spider-man writer EVER".
Which goes towards what a big steaming pile of dog shit this is, as Slott has managed to secure his reputation as the worst Spider-Man writer ever, to the point of redeeming Mister Box Office Poison Howard "I was told that stores would not order any book with my name on it by the end of my Marvel run" Mackie's run.
Your store is filled with mentally retarded folk with shitty taste in comics.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't. He got away with killing Spidey, is crowing about how he his going to be a "superior" hero to Peter, and has no guilt or remorse. Evil won, good lost.....
ReplyDeleteNo they won't. Marvel HATES Peter and they are literally taking the stance with this that Otto was right to do this and is going to be the BETTER man and outdo Peter.
ReplyDeleteWith Azbats, the whole thing was set up with Bruce being injured but fixable and moreso, the writers using Azreal to attack fans who wanted a grim and gritty "lets kill bad guys" Batman by giving the mouthbreathers what they wanted in a manner where they would see the error of their way and be clamoring for the moment when Bruce got up out of the chair and kicked Azreal's ass to reclaim the cowl.
Fuck, they even divided the Batbooks during Knightsquest to have Bruce in half of the books, recovering from his injuries and still having adventures and shit. Issues, much like 99% of the build-up to Knightfall, that were omitted from the recently put out TPBs of the Knightfall trilogy, in terms of omissions from the hue omnibus style TPBs.....
Or you're a delusional psycho who will die alone and unloved. One or the other.
ReplyDeleteIt won't boost sales, especially since sales are in the shitter to begin with. And given the campaign by critics to spoil the arc led to the two main critical issues being available online for download, they will be lucky if Superior Spider-Man manages to sell 60,000 copies....
ReplyDeleteThe only decent Batman books are Batman Incorporated and Batman and Robin. And JLI, which was sadly cancelled because you know, DC doesn't think that Batman should have his own league team yet an unlikeable asshat like Steve Trevor totally DOES deserve to have his own league team....
ReplyDeleteYou are the delusional psycho and fucking dying alone bitch. And remember, I have the fucking balls to use my real name, while you hide behind all sorts of bullshit fake names, like a little bitch you are.....
ReplyDeleteThe frightening thing is that you have no idea how completely batshit fucking CRAZY you are.
ReplyDeleteNow there's the Jesse meltdown we've been waiting for.
ReplyDeleteAlso, how can you POSSIBLY say that Marvel "hates" Spider-Man when the character literally saved the company from bankruptcy with the movies and went on to earn them more than a billion dollars? Not to mention that Amazing Spider-Man was the highest-numbered comic in Marvel history.
ReplyDeleteUm... huh?
ReplyDeleteHe may have all the memories, but Ock is Ock. His mind is nothing like Peter's. Neither is his inflection. People like Mary-Jane, Daredevil and Wolverine SHOULD see through it in seconds.
Of course they don't hate Spider-Man, but when you see Mark Waid writing Daredevil and friggin' Hulk with a more 'Spider-Man' feel than Spider-Man... well, you've screwed up somewhere. Daredevil feeling more fun than Spider-Man says it all.
ReplyDeleteReview ... Best Of Nitro disc two, I think? Am I doing this right?
ReplyDeleteGet him Dougie!
ReplyDeleteBest of Raw disc 3 bro...
ReplyDeleteLove steve!!!
lol!
ReplyDeleteIt's everything I had hoped for and more honestly.
ReplyDelete...because he SAYS so, dammit.
ReplyDeleteAnd the batshit fucking CRAZY thing is that I agree with Dougie!!!!
ReplyDeleteNumbering doesn't count (and it's the only highest numbered comic because Quesada churned out 155 issues in the last four years) for shit Scott. And read interviews by the writers/editors at Marvel and you see that they not only dislike Spider-Man, but take active pleasure in making the comic a misery book because they can't stand the fact that fans like Peter and take inspiration from the arc of the franchise during it's first 30 years as far as the story of Peter going from shy nerd to successful 20-someting with loving wife and friends and a comfortable adulthood.
ReplyDeleteThe movie success adds to their contempt (since that means that they now have to deal with new fans who want GOOD stories and don't want to deal with Quesada's bullshit hatred of the character) and moreso, let's also be clear that Marvel pretty such dropped Spidey as their flagship character the second Wolverine became popular and had his mainstream breakthrough with the X-Men cartoon. And fuck, you never fucking hear them talk about the Raimi movies saving them, since Sony owns the rights to the character.
Marvel treats Spider-Man like the bastard step-child they hate and abuse for fun. They hate fans who expect more than the misery showcase that they constantly inflict upon Spider-Man and moreso, they hate the character for being the embodiment of all that the bastards running the company hate about their customers.