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The BUSINESS of Kayfabe (sorta)

Heya Scott, Happy Superbowl Sunday! 

Anyway, coupla blog related questions that I think could be mighty interesting.


1. I was watching the rumble BEFORE MY FUCKING FEED CUT OUT RIGHT BEFORE THE MAIN EVENT, and noticed in one of the packages that the WWE is now doing Comic-con esque "Shoot" panels (I can't remember the name). Personally I think this is a great idea, but is also sorta killing Kayfabe (not that it exists that much anymore, anyway). Anyway, what are your thoughts on these sorta panels, and have they been going on for awhile and I've just missed them, or are they new?

I certainly had never heard of doing them before the Rumble ones. It's a great way to undercut the guys who are doing SHOOT INTERVIEWZ on DVD so I'm surprised WWE hasn't tried to get a piece of that pie sooner.  So now of course we'll never get another one.  

2. So it seems like the WWE is doing what it did in the pre-attitude era, trying to indoctrinate kids with cartoons, Saturday morning slam, fucking Scooby Doo(?), and part of me is thinking this is a GREAT idea because it's pretty much how the majority of folks first heard of wrestling, or it became part of their frame of reference.

Yeah, much like comic books, wrestling is a pastime that benefits greatly from forming a positive association at a young age.  If I was trying to get into comics for the first time now, for example, I'd be totally lost as to what I'd even like reading.  Same with wrestling, as obviously my fandom is shaped by years of trying to find another angle as awesome as Roddy Piper smashing the shit out of the Flower Shop on one leg.  

3. How does the WWE typically handle Press access for big events like Wrestlemania? Does pretty much anyone that requests a pass from a popular outlet gain access, and if so, are they given strict rules about what they can and can't discuss in their articles / pieces / etc? I ask, for I applied for a pass! 

I'm betting you didn't get one.  And typically yes, press access is ridiculously strict and childish.  You have a much better shot of getting UFC credentials.  

4. I was pondering the gut-check challenge the other day, and was kind of wondering if in some bizarre world they started rating matches not by winner and loser, but instead by best match, etc etc, sort of legitimizing the art of fake-fighting. You think this sort of thing would go over with hardcore fans who really care most about work-rate and quality match production versus storylines and "I'ma kick you ass bro!" stuff?   

I've long thought that wrestling in the Olympics could work in exactly that manner, as an artistic exhibition ala ballroom dancing or figure skating.  Although you'd run into the problem of the Russian judges being from Minnesota.


Comments

  1. Superbowl Sunday? Is this the Grey Cup?

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  2. Exactly. The movie and TV businesses are based on the same kind of suspension of disbelief and investment in storyline. Those businesses are doing just fine for themselves. Wrestling just isn't particularly consistent about putting out good storylines or giving you material that makes some of us WANT to suspend disbelief.

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  3. TNA is literally airing a PPV this coming week with the selling point of "The winner of this tournament gets $100,000."


    Take that as either proof of your statement or as a counter-argument, however you wish.

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  4. Pretty much, yeah. I think the only difference is that wrestling wants its audience to believe that a lot of the performers are actually the same as the characters as their performing and that the storylines are real where as with TV and movies, they obviously know that the viewer watching knows that it's an actor/actress portraying a character and that's it. Wrestling tries to walk a finer line which is fine if done correctly... but it usually isn't.

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  5. If you mean The Legends Of Wrestling Roundtables, those have been going on for a few years now. They released a box set 4 years ago: http://www.amazon.com/WWE-Wrestling-Artist-Not-Provided/dp/B001KZB1V6/ref=sr_1_3?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1367164070&sr=1-3&keywords=legends+of+wrestling but I don't think they ever released any others. It's a shame because with satellite, I can't get Classics on Demand so this was my only way of seeing them and I enjoyed them.

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  6. I legit lol'd. I can't think of anyone who will buy that PPV because they want to see who wins $100,000. If anyone orders the show it'll be due to liking the participants involved and/or hoping/expecting some entertaining matches.


    In the ol' days, part of the reason why championship matches meant so much was because the winner would have more recognition and thus more money and better work and life benefits. Now we all obviously know that's not directly true but there is a small kernel of truth. Not so much in WWE land where titles are props, but in other places where the belts have more meaning and could be used to elevate someone, you wouldn't be shocked if a person wound up being able to make more money on bookings and such because he/she now held a title in a promotion. And to the smart fan, they see a champion as someone the company values because only worthy guys should hold titles which means that it's someone who the fans should also respect. That's obviously not always the case but on paper that's probably how it's supposed to work.

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  7. Yeah, much like comic books, wrestling is a pastime that benefits
    greatly from forming a positive association at a young age. If I was
    trying to get into comics for the first time now, for example, I'd be
    totally lost as to what I'd even like reading. Same with wrestling, as
    obviously my fandom is shaped by years of trying to find another angle
    as awesome as Roddy Piper smashing the shit out of the Flower Shop on
    one leg.



    I made this point in a recent thread, that these days, wrestling all around just isn't fun. I was watching a nothing match on Mania on 24/7, and Gorilla and Brain made the match worth watching b/c of the fun they brought to the table. These days you have to wonder "WHY SO SERIOUS?!" since damn near everything MATTERS. RIGHT. NOW. That's why I think Santino (and to a lesser extent Khali and his group) is so over b/c in a world of RUTHLESS AGGRESSION, he actually is a breath of fresh air.


    Also, given the cookie cutter nature of today's wrestlers, the roster just isn't colorful. Gone are the days of Beefcake, Rude, Jake, the Rockers, Savage, Hogan and now you've got Orton and HHH and Sheamus and Barrett.

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  8. E-mails pile up

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  9. Yeah, they were pretty much like those except the ones at the Rumble were live panels with an audience.

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  10. Yeah, it's kind of like the ARGs that go around the internet now. Most everything is done in character.

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  11. Oh I see--I wonder if those might get released someday if they're trying to break into the shoot interview market.

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  12. I think that Mick Foley has the right idea about what makes a quality wrestling angle - real animosity. He was talking about how he remained bitter at Flair, The Rock, Heyman, etc, for years, in order to have real *fire* to shoot at them come time for promos against them.

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  13. The ironic part is that since Foley always comes off as such a down to earth and nice guy, I never think of him as having real heat with anyone and yet still believe he's one of the great promo guys in the history of the sport.

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  14. "It's a stark contrast to TNA, ROH, and the major indies who are more than happy to provide access to talent to wrestling-centric media."


    Let's be honest, the reason the other companies are more than happy to provide access to talent to wrestling-centric media is because "traditional media" either has no idea the aforementioned companies exist or don't care that they do. If I were WWE and had a big time brand with more media outlets willing to work with me, I'd also favor the ones who portray me in a positive light as opposed to the ones who don't.

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  15. I think it's just more from this perspective that the best wrestling has a nugget of truth in it, and to have that nugget of truth, you need to hold on to a bit of embitterment - watch the ECW Foley v. Heyman promos.

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  16. I've never really thought about like this, but really the only chance WWE has at growing their audience is pitching to children. I hate to say this, but we all know it's true: being a wrestling fan is embarrassing. It comes with a stigma. People will make fun of you for it. If it comes up at the wrong time, it could ruin your chances with a woman. No sensible adult is going to make the decision to suddenly enter this world if they don't have to.



    I presume most of us have been watching since childhood. It captured our imagination at a time when it was socially acceptable, when we could go to school and talk to all the other kids about how Ron Bass's assault of Brutus Beefcake was so sick that they had to censor it. Some of us developed a deeper appreciation and we remained fans long after our peers had put away childish things. What we want now is a product which has grown and evolved with us, one which caters to the sophisticated appreciation we've cultivated.



    However, we aren't in a position to bring our friends on board. We're not going to convince our co-workers to check out CM Punk/Cena on Youtube. And if we do somehow manage to do so, they aren't going to see what we see. We're a dying breed. Young fans, those who can watch without fear of social reprisals are the surest bet to repopulate the fan base. While I think the WWE does have to acknowledge us and make some concessions to retain us (like occasionally the best worker a push rather than the flashiest talker), it is entirely logical that their focus right now has to be hooking young viewers so that some of them will still be there 10-20 years from now. Maybe this is all obvious, but thinking about it this way makes me feel slightly less scornful of Hornswoggle and Super-Cena.



    Also, why can't people just quit judging. I'm tired of pretending I'm not a fan when the topic comes up, and of being given a "hard time" when decide to be true to myself and just admit it. Also I'm tired of hiding my DVDs on those rare occasions when a lady agrees to accompany me back to my apartment.

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  17. To elaborate on just how stigmatized we are: I do stand-up comedy and I have a joke about 'I wish I had a box of porn, because that would be so much easier to explain to a woman than my box of wrestling DVDs. For some reason women find Backyard Barn Sluts 4 less incriminating than The Ultimate Ric Flair Collection.' And whenever I do this joke, the women in the audience strongly demonstrate their agreement with this comment..and I die a little inside.

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  18. "Also I'm tired of hiding my DVDs on those rare occasions when a lady agrees to accompany me back to my apartment."


    what? just don't do it.


    there a plenty of guys AND girls that are into "childish" stuff from reading comics to obsessively playing video games to knowing every Star Trek episode.



    I feel that mainstream acceptance of "nerd/geek culture" has never been as high as it is right now.

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  19. there a plenty of guys AND girls that are into "childish" stuff from
    reading comics to obsessively playing video games to knowing every Star
    Trek episode.



    Well, there's also stigmas related both to intelligence and social class that come with being a wrestling fan that don't come with video games and comic books.

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  20. Well, to be fair, BBS4 *was* pretty amazing...

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  21. Very true. It was definitely a game changer for the franchise which had begun to diminish in returns at that point. The introduction of Ranch Hand Anne into the BBS mythos rejuvenated the cast and gave the series the identifiable protagonist which had been missing since Sally Feedbags departed (or 'got clean') midway through BBS 2.

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  22. Right, Star Trek, comics, video games...all those things have a foothold in mainstream culture, and you will find an abundance of women who claim to be 'total geeks' in respect to those things. Wrestling stands out in the sense that people still can't get over the "wrestling is fake and trashy and you must be an idiot if you watch it" mentality. It's weird how the camera finds so many female fans in the audience at the shows, but you never meet them in real life.

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  23. What was interesting, though, was that during the height of the attitude era, sometime in '99, I remember reading an article in a magazine (not sure if it was the infamous one from EW with Goldberg on the cover) talking about how wrestling was now the domain of college kids (and not just the sterotypical partiers), and how the future leaders and innovators of the world would op their studies to gather en masse to watch RAW and Nitro. So even during its sleaziest, there was this notion I think that wrestling was being enjoyed by a "respectable" demographic.

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  24. "In short wrestling needs a show to do for it what Watchman did for comics / graphic novels."


    That's a good point. I think wrestling would be well served if it could get into the perimeters of 'geek culture' because comics and sci-fi have, to some extent, escaped the stigma. Normal people can indulge them without judgement because everyone loved The Avengers and Lost. Wrestling is in the deep end though. People who don't get it typically have no ability to comprehend its appeal, and stuff like Katie Vick and the 'Kiss My Ass' club are devastating in the respect because if they occur on one of those rare occasions when an outsider does look in, they confirm every negative stereotype.


    I think the best chance of turning things around would be if WWE found a good middle ground between drawing the children and maintaining the adults, focused 100% on writing compelling stories and angles, and never, under any circumstances, let John Cena call anyone 'poopie'. But realistically, that isn't going to happen because Vince is more concerned with treating symptoms from week to week than curing the disease (to paraphrase Watchmen).

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  25. Yeah, Austin and the NWO seemed to be breaking through. I remember a lot of people having a casual interest back then. I guess that shows the power of compelling and consistent plot work. But there hasn't been anything like either of those angles since. Or at least nothing that's followed through. The pipe-bomb and subsequent GQ interview with CM Punk seemed like it was poised to bring in some legitimacy. They finally had a character that people might be able to connect with, someone who could draw them in. But Vince reigned it in. They had something compelling and different but it involved letting one guy control his own destiny for too long and I don't think Vince is willing to gamble on such a long term project anymore.

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  26. He also said that it was probably a mistake to have that theory and that holding that anger inside wasn't healthy.

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  27. Maybe because female wrestling fans are embarrassed to talk about it because people will stigmatize them.


    You can't have it both ways. You can't be both ashamed of wrestling and not talk about it, then be upset that other people aren't open about their wrestling fandom.


    Take the first step.

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  28. It's tough. I just wish they would stop not sleeping with me when I bring it up. It's enough to make a guy turn heel.

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  29. I don't think there's that much of a difference. then again, I can only talk about about specific parts of Western Europe.

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  30. There's a reason method actors are all crazy miserable fucks.

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  31. Foley, I know you're out there downvoting this

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  32. I think that's because (and I say this as a huge wrestling fan), it has been embarrassingly bad for most of it's history. There's the odd angle or match that are great, but even during the much-loved Attitude Era there was shit like choppy-choppy.

    The show has virtually never been top to bottom great. At best, during 2000 WWF, there was simply more good than bad. And that's considered a creative golden age. To use another genre-show that's been mentioned in this thread, Game of Thrones, it's like trying to sell your girlfriend on watching it because there was this one season where there was more bad than good, but during the rest of the show there's maybe one good subplot and a few great characters, and the rest is cringe-worthy.

    And I don't think this is any surprise. It's because they've never actually tried to produce great art. Whether it be comics or genre movies and TV, most at least start with the intention of being really good these days. Sure, there's Michael Bay movies, but there's also Battlestar Galactica, the Dark Knight trilogy, and Sandman.

    There has never been a wrestling promotion that's started from the premise of creating great art, and that includes indy promotions. Or in the case of the indies, maybe I'm being unfair and they're simply not talented enough to produce the great art they intended. But for all their corporate-jargon, WWE is still so entrenched in its carny-wrestling mentality that creating brilliant art would be laughed out of the room in lieu of what "draws".



    What they've failed to glean from the last 20-30 years of popular culture is that quality draws too.

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  33. Yeah you're right, he should give up pussy because he's too proud to take down the same Fandango poster that everyone on Earth has.

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  34. why would anyone down vote this? This guy is frigging hilarious and spot on. do you ever do standup in Michigan?

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  35. if it makes you feel any better there are women out there who don't care. my wife didn't care when I met her in 98. In fact she got in an e-fed with me (she didn't care about wrestling but liked the creative aspect and has since gone on to write a book). She does jokingly tell me that I turned her into a geek with all my comic book, wrestling, and sci-fi references that she now gets, but she tells me that with love.

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  36. Thanks C-Duk! I'm still pretty new so I haven't made it outside the Wisconsin area yet, but I'm hoping to get a little traction and tour around eventually. Congrats to you and your wife on the book, that's awesome!
    As much as I'm deprecating myself about the whole wrestling fan thing, the truth is--if I ever heard a woman say something like, "Hogan should have totally put over Kidman; I'm so tired of the workrate guys always having to do the job," I'm not sure I wouldn't discreetly excuse myself to the closest bathroom window. I love talking wrestling with all you guys on the BoD, but maybe it's better that there are social forces which keep that part of my life compartmentalized.

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  37. I get the impression WWE don't want to accept that these days they have more geeky fans and that MMA has taken most of the typical jockey sport enthusiasts from them.

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