Hey Scott,
Great discussion of 50/50 booking the other day. This is a real issue in WWE, but I think they have shown when they really, really want to get behind somebody they will scrap it.
Look no further than Sheamus, Triple H's good workout buddy. Sheamus dominated 2012. He was pinned by Mark Henry on Raw in April 2012 then did not lose a singles match by pinfall or submission until CM Punk did it six months later.
WWE built up Sheamus strong, established that he was a serious force and he got over. After the bad taste that was left in fans' mouths following WM28, the only way to get him over was to have him beat everybody and he did that. Fans bought into him as a result.
We've established that there's a rhyme and reason why guys aren't allowed to look too strong, but for a company that is so starved for star power that they have to pay out millions and millions for part-timers, why not just do what every damn promoter has done for the past 60 years? It seems to work.
Am I crazy?
Worked pretty good for Ryback too until they decided to have him never win a match again.
Lemme tell you though, they LOVE their losing streaks. Kofi Kingston, Wade Barrett, Zack Ryder, Jack Swagger, Antonio Cesaro, they've all "benefited" from being booked like giant losers for a prolonged period.
Watching WWE programming for a few weeks, and you might think that they really don't have any control over who wins the matches. Like the results come out of a randomizer or something. I mean, if you actually want Dolph Ziggler to get over, guess what WWE: You don't have to make him lose. At all. Yup, you can have him keep winning and look like a big deal. It's allowed!
ReplyDeleteI mean, WWE could easily pick about 8-10 guys that they really want to push and agree to NEVER have them lose on TV. Not even if it's due to interference or distraction or whatever. Nope, just don't lose. They've got more than enough mid and low carders to use as cannon fodder, and tag matches and fuck finishes they could do. Pick the group of guys you want to treat like big deals and go a full year with them never losing on TV, just in big PPV matches. And guess what? Those guys will seem like huge deals.
Or you can job out your new World Champ a week after he wins the title. That could get him over too.
Look if they actually used a losing streak as a one-off here and there, I don't think any of us would complain, but literally they are doing it for half the roster so it becomes too much and we just get sick of it.
ReplyDeletePoint in case - last Monday on RAW when 3 champions were pinned in non-title matches to create 3 new insta-feuds. They really find something and then ram it down our throats.
The only time 50/50 works is when Joseph Gordon-Levitt & Seth Rogen are involved.
ReplyDeleteoh, and Anna Kendrick.
The thing about the losing streak story lines is that they wouldn't be so bad if they followed story lines with their plans. The normal payoff to such a story line would be overcoming the streak and the mental roadblock that comes with it, winning a big match and riding that wave to success.
ReplyDeleteProblem is, most times the losing streak drags on and the gimmick is dropped for whatever reason (writers forget about it or get bored, said wrestler wears wrong color shoes on a Thursday, etc.) With no payoff, it's not a losing streak gimmick, it's just a loser.
I was going to make a joke about putting them all together in the a jobber stable but I think it could be a good idea. Hear me out, take Miz, Barrett, Ziggler, Kofi, and Cesaro and put them together. They all turn heel and lash out against guys like Cena, Orton, Punk, Sheamus, etc etc. Their beef is that the main eventers have made it so that they always face each other so that they never pose a threat to them. They're sick of it and decided to put a stop to it. Am I insane or could that be a cool storyline?
ReplyDeleteAnd threadjack: This sounds pretty fucking cool.
http://www.wwe.com/shows/outside-the-ring/triple-h-announces-wwe-performance-center-in-florida-26108322
2012 - The Distracted Roll-Up finish
ReplyDelete2013 - Champion is pinned in a non-title match
2014 - ???
sounds awesome. I wonder if they need someone with a math degree and a full, sailboat load of charm that also happens to be a big ol' wrestling geek.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that is all the writers know how to write. They're not big enough wrestling fans to know that there is a ton of good shit out there from history that they could steal and/or update.
ReplyDeleteThis would be a cool storyline, but we're dealing with WWE Creative...so here's how it plays out:
ReplyDeleteSheamus, Cena and Orton kick Punk out of the group, then vandalize his tour bus without provocation. This is immediately followed by a Be a Star video. The blowoff match culminates with Cena kicking out of all 5 finishers to overcome the odds. Then HHH comes out and Pedigrees Cesaro through the ring.
Funny thing is that WCW got this rigjht with Goldberg, and was starting to get it right again with Wrath. And Nash ended both streaks!
ReplyDeleteThe Ryback thing was going fine, but they pushed him to Main Event level too quickly.
I'm a sucker for Jimmy Hart-style booking, so I like the idea of star wrestlers getting wins over enhancement talent and then getting into feuds based on either titles, plain old not liking each other or even theme songs. Just something! A wrestler should be feuding with another wrestler, not his own humanity.
ReplyDeleteThat would be very cool, maybe they will have taken their inspiration from The Shield? And The Shield is the 3rd party to all this, sitting back and watching the WWE destroy itself from within. YES!
ReplyDeleteThe shield are the obvious winning streak beneficiaries.
ReplyDeleteThe 50/50 booking is (i think) the only thing I have a real issue with in today's product. I just don't get it at all and wish someone like Rosenberg or whoever else does the smarky interviews would bring it up next time they have a (upper mid card - main event) name on
ReplyDeleteThe Shield is Emperor Palpatine to their Anakin Skywalker.
ReplyDelete2014 is going to be the year of powder in the eyes... It's due for a comeback.
ReplyDeleteWhat's really bad is that 50-50 booking makes the secondary shows more fun than the 'big' shows. Main Event is the 2000 WCW Saturday Night to Raw's Vince Russo Nitro.
ReplyDeletewas going to make a joke about putting them all together in the a jobber stable
ReplyDeleteThey already have 3MB.
I think MVP's losing streak worked pretty well. He was a heel who kept losing and management said, "We paid too much for you. Perform or get lost." So then he started his road back, eventually being put into higher profile matches where a loss somehow impacted one of the uppercard or even main event faces, turning face in the process via winning for himself and to make sure the associated face (HHH springs to mind in a couple of matches) doesn't get messed over.
ReplyDeleteLets not forget Brock Lesnar here, he's currently less than 50/50 booking, he's 75/25 losses. I hope he gets back to 50/50 status after Extreme Rules! That means he's been booked well and thus everything is okay again :)
ReplyDeleteApparently WWE is looking to hire a writer with telenovela experience to appeal to the Hispanic demographic. Because, you know, all Hispanics watch soap operas.
ReplyDeleteSheamus kinda did get a 50/50 push. Don't forget, King Sheamus had a Zach Ryder like win/loss record, before turning face and then never losing. So even guys like Sheamus aren't immune from their bizarre booking.
ReplyDeleteMVP's losing streak is a perfect example of this. The payoff was a random win on Smackdown and nothing followed it up.
ReplyDeleteRyback fell victim to the same problem as Fandango. Fans started to like him and some feed me more chants started, so WWE stuffed him down everyone's throat like he was the second coming of Ultimate Warrior. His character never got to just breath with the fans.
ReplyDeleteIt's not losing that's the problem, it's how people are losing. Clean losses once in a while are acceptable; Ric Flair became a made man by losing to various people in tag matches to make people think that Ricky Morton or Hawk could win the title. Vince's problem is that he's taken this formula and overblown it beyond all credible standards. Top heels and champions lose with such regularity that the fan base stops giving a crap. If anything, losing to a champion these days is proverbial jobber territory.
ReplyDeleteI think ditching the 50/50 booking worked great in establishing Mark Henry a couple of summers ago, too, culminating in him destroying Randy Orton for the title at SummerSlam. Sure, Henry did his part by just being awesome and saying and doing cool stuff the whole time, but he just steamrolled through everyone, and the booking gave WWE their first true monster heel in a while. Henry wouldn't have become what he did if his summer that year was peppered with random losses.
ReplyDeleteIf this somehow gets the guy who hosts Sabado Gigante on Raw, I'm in. Okay not really. Just book professional wrestling and wrestling fans will watch! Of all people I thought VINCE would understand the Spanish-speaking market. How long have they had Spanish announcers?
ReplyDeleteI was unaware of Kendrick before that movie, but she was adorable. I'm guessing she isn't built up the same way in Up in the Air and that glee club movie.
ReplyDeleteYou mean you don't remember all the times Austin was pinned in 1997 through 2002? Everyone totally bought Austin as a threat.
ReplyDeleteYes, because this is a better idea, than...I don't know...scouting the Mexican wrestling circuit for guys that can actually perform!
ReplyDeleteWith the occasional green mist!
ReplyDeleteRyback was doing just fine untli Hell in a Cell, when they completely pussied out on him with that Brad Maddox finish. He hasn't been the same since.
ReplyDeleteHow did Drew McIntyre's losing streak work out for him?
ReplyDeleteKendrick's adorable in Up in the Air.
ReplyDeleteSlight sidejack, regarding Ryback: What was so wrong about keeping him a face and just having him say "It's nothing personal, John Cena, but I want to be the champion"? Why did they need to give him a heel turn and some Machiavellian plan? Would it kill them to give the Cena haters someone to cheer for?
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing that Hart just kept beating him over and over but Austin stayed SO HOT.
ReplyDeleteLesnar is really interesting because he's become victim of what I think of as the "Worf effect." Worf ALWAYS lost fights on TNG and DS9 to show that the alien of the week was a threat. I'm sure there's a TV tropes page for this, but I'd say Brock is a victim of the exact same thing. Only...rather than putting over a threat as legitimate like Worf was, Brock is being used to show how legit HHH is. Something seems off here...
ReplyDeleteI don't think Sheamus is the best example to use to be honest. When I see him on TV now I see nothing but an insufferable prick.
ReplyDeleteHHH will win that match in 17 seconds.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a Cena Hater (more Cena Boredbyer), but I'm actually pulling for Ryback in this feud. He's right to be pissed. Good announcers would mention this, so hopefully JBL does that.
ReplyDeleteNope, the green mist died with Tensai's push.
ReplyDeleteKendrick is adorable in my bed.
ReplyDeleteIn my dreams.
I still jerk off to that submission match!
ReplyDeleteAnd TVTropes even calls it "The Worf Effect".
ReplyDeletehttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
Scott is referring to the average WWE fan who for the most part still buy into Sheamus.
ReplyDeleteWith his teeth, Ryback will never be able to deliver the blow jobs that Cena does.
ReplyDeleteIf they bring in Eric Estrada, all is forgiven.
ReplyDeleteAnd they EASILY could have gone the way of Nexus.
ReplyDeleteHe was made by then, though. Flair could J-O-B all night and all day because he could get it back and more with a few squashes and promos.
ReplyDeleteETHER you fools!
ReplyDeleteShe's great in Up in the Air too. 50/50 and Up in the Air. Two of my personal favorites.
ReplyDeleteThe only time a losing streak gimmick works is when it is done by a jobber who finally gets a big win like Barry Horrowitz or Norman Smiley.
ReplyDeleteThey can't decide. They flip coins before they come out.
ReplyDeleteThere are only 4 entities in the company that escape 50/50 booking. Undertaker, John Cena, Rock, and The Shield.
ReplyDeleteNothing's wrong with it, except WWE is married to "heel-face" dynamics in booking and character development. Why did Summer of Punk work? Because Punk wanted the title and actually made it seem valuable? He could have been doing it as a heel or a face - it still would have increased interest. Instead, we get Swagger challenging ADR because he's a Mexican, Ryback going after Cena because he's butthurt, etc. If they'd just focus around people changing behavior and improving to get to the title, the product will book itself.
ReplyDeleteI fear they may still
ReplyDeleteawesome! Into the tvtropes abyss I head...
ReplyDeleteTotally. After that first Raw after Mania, I was holding out hope that THIS is how they'd get around keeping Cena face— that basically they'd let him feud with other faces, and allow fans to root for whoever. So you could feud Cena with Ryback, Bryan, Sheamus, whoever, and nobody would necessarily have to sneak attack the other or do heelish stuff. Would be a much more interesting dynamic than Ryback suddenly becoming this evil whiny pussy. And with SO much TV a week they'd have plenty of other feuds to do the heel-face stuff, so it would make Cena's stuff stand out more.
ReplyDeleteBut in reality, how many times did Hart actually beat Austin on TV? Maybe twice? (Survivor Series 96 and Mania 13, right?) Austin wasn't getting jobbed out in the slightest, and when he did lose it was treated as a big deal.
ReplyDeleteCompare that to the Cena-Ziggler feud last year, where Cena cleanly pinned Ziggler TWICE on Raw leading into their TLC match, and then beat him twice more in the weeks after the match. I mean, that's nuts.
See ya in a week.
ReplyDeleteThat'll be 2015, then Lawler will return the fireball in 2016.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was sarcasm...
ReplyDeleteand where's the womens shoe?
ReplyDeleteFollow up question: How long until Lesnar undergoes badass decay? I'm guessing he has another 1-2 PPV losses before the mystique is 100% gone.
ReplyDeleteI'm genuinely curious. If we look through history, has a losing streak storyline EVER worked?
ReplyDeleteI want to say it kind of worked to get MVP over as a babyface, but not really. He seemed to be getting babyface reactions before the sympathetic loser storyline. Barry Horowitz, maybe? John Cena in 2012? But then, that wasn't really much of a losing streak, it was more of a "coming up short" streak.
I just can't think of a time where it actually worked out for a guy to be booked as a loser all the time. And of the few times they had a storyline reason for booking it that way (Cena has the worst 2012 ever after losing to Rock, while working towards a redemptive 2013), they never actually tell that story. Or at least, they never commit to it fully. They just half-ass it. And a "losing streak" only works when they're using their full-ass. Namely, the story has to be there for it.
And FAHN DAHHHHHN GOOOOO!!!
ReplyDeleteI was also hoping we'd get more face-face feuds for Cena. They didn't turn Bobby Lashley when they had him face Cena at the Great American Bash, and it ended up being, in my opinion, one of the best matches of Cena's year-long 2006-2007 title run.
ReplyDeleteNot saying the match with Ryback would hit four snowflakes if they'd kept him face, but I am saying that a match doesn't necessarily require a strict face-heel dynamic to tell a compelling in-ring story.
Extreme Rules is the Smark PPV. Brock's going over.
ReplyDeleteBecause it worked out so well for Brock last year.
ReplyDeleteUh...Rock/Cena was face/face. And didn't work.
ReplyDeleteFace/heel is the law of the land cause it fucking works.
I don't think it'll ever be 100% gone... but his value would only be in Andre-like roles. KILL lower-card guys in droves, but lose to the main guys. And that role would be a sad misuse of him IMO.
ReplyDeleteIt's FAHN DAHHHHHHNN GOOOOO!!!
ReplyDeleteIt worked for Kenta Kobashi.
ReplyDeleteHe lost his first 62 matches, all of them singles matches. after being established as the ultimate underdog, with to much tenacity to give it up, he became one of Japan's fastest rising stars. Kobashi is now regarded as one of the most popular wrestlers ever with multiple world title reigns under his belt.
Other then that I can't think of a single time it's really worked of the top of my head
I've wondered this too. Why are people afraid of him if he never wins? As an aside, if HHH lost, he was going to retire from wrestling twice a year?
ReplyDeleteTHIS!
ReplyDeleteJericho - 97/98 - He would throw those temper tantrums after losing eventually leading to him snapping and turning heel. After that though he went on a huge winning streak and the rest is history. If memory serves he lost more than a handful of matches on his way to that heel turn.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why Dolph (or Barrett, Cesaro, etc) has to lose to Swagger to set up a feud. There are a ton of things they can do to make Swagger a threat to Dolph without having the champ lose. What happened to the challenger pushing the champ to the limit, but coming up just short?
ReplyDeleteFlair was WAY too liberal with who he did jobs for.
ReplyDeleteTerrible misuse. :-(
ReplyDeleteSee: Punk, CM.
ReplyDeleteShe had a huge role in Up In The Air and even got an Oscar nomination out of it
ReplyDeleteI will not reply to any more comments until you learn to say his name correctly.
ReplyDeleteBarry Horowitz's losing streak wasn't a gimmick, he was just a jobber. WWE didn't go, "okay, he's lost every match for the last five years...NOW it's time to pull the trigger, put him over Skip!"
ReplyDeleteI would've loved to have seen Candido's face the day he showed up at the tapings and was told he was losing to Horowitz that night.
We all consider Sheamus a 'made man' but ironically, he's been jobbed as much as anyone. He got the huge push from January through September...then promptly lost the title clean to Big Show and lost every subsequent rematch. Sheamus then loses the Rumble (albeit after a good showing) and jobs on two straight PPVs to the Shield. If this was a smark favourite who had been getting this kind of treatment over the last six months, we'd all be irate.
ReplyDeleteCena is not Triple H.
ReplyDeleteTrips got his win, he's going to lose.
Remember Vince saying audiences were tired of "good guys vs bad guys" right before launching the entire industry into its absolute zenith of popularity?
ReplyDeleteFace/heel was a stale, tired dynamic in the late 90's and it is stale and tired again today.
Bull. Shit.
ReplyDeleteAustin was a face, McMahon was a heel.
Or even a simple 'beat the piss out of him early, then get DQ'ed'. EASY.
ReplyDeleteIf Candido understood wrestling (I assume he did), he'd have been happy. He and Barry had fun matches.
ReplyDeleteCharacter. Smarks are upset because they did like sheamus and when he turned into Cena 2.0 they felt betrayed
ReplyDelete