So I'm back overseas reading your complete 2003, I have noticed a couple of things.
-You love Randy Orton (or at least the RNN updates) I found that to be hilarious given your stance on him nowadays.
-You completely called Steiner having nothing in the tank as soon as the HHH/Steiner feud began.
But it was your HBK-hate that got to me. I know you weren't a fan of the one shot deal comeback and now you have a respect for him. But during the 03 rants, you are just riding him hard (no homo) at every turn.
My question is, was there a moment of clarity when you said "I'M A FAN!!!" or was it the totality of his comeback that made you silently nod in approval. SUCKAZ GOTS TA KNOW!
Your part time #1 draw
It was when he tapped out to Benoit at Backlash 04 to actually put someone over, and then had that run of awesome main events around that time. It was apparent that he had no interest in being champion again, and wasn't going to flake out and leave, AND pretty much had great matches every time out. The Angle match at Wrestlemania cemented it.
I must've missed it, but what is Scott's opinion of Orton?
ReplyDeleteHe hasn't done anything in a while, but I still like him. I think he's very capable in the ring and usually gets great reactions from the crowd.. I also like how he usually doesnt just completely squash opponents when he wins his singles matches like Cena and Sheamus often do. I do wish he'd get freshened up though.
Is it the high amount of chinlocks that soured Scott on Orton? Or the fact that he has been wasting space on the roster for the last couple years, getting wins over the guys who need some establishing (Cesaro, Cody, Sandow)?
ReplyDeleteTotally agreed. I've pretty much always been an Orton fan, though there have been years (2005, 2010, 2012-13) that have been difficult. I think he is very good in the ring, extremely underrated by most on the proverbial IWC. He's a pretty bad promo (especially as a face), but he gets great reactions and almost always makes his opponents look good in the match.
ReplyDeleteI felt Shawn had quite a few excellent matches in '02 and '03 as well. Even though it had a non-finish, his match with RVD on Raw shortly after Survivor Series 2002 was excellent.
ReplyDeleteI am of the opinion that Shawn's 2002-2010 run eclipsed everything he did up to 1998. He was just that good, and his change in lifestyle helped him tremendously. Jesus is just alright with me for that one.
ReplyDeleteHBK is the GOAT, hands down
ReplyDeleteMy only challenge: Macho Man. Because Macho Man was a draw in a way that HBK wasn't.
ReplyDeleteI hate Randy Orton. He's my least-favorite wrestler of all time. I think he's utterly mediocre in every aspect except for look. I completely disagree with you about making opponents look good: Cena cemented Punk as a superstar in July of 2011 and Sheamus lets guys beat the hell out of him. When has anyone come out of a feud looking like a star because of Orton? He has no ability to improvise and reacts like a child when things don't go his way. He's gotten good crowd reactions after being pushed for over five years like a monster.
ReplyDeleteYup, same for me. You can tell in the complete 2003 that was likely the turning point for Scott as well, along with the RAW Title match vs. HHH a month later.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah? AND WHICH WAY WAS THAT?
ReplyDeleteThe part where his being the focal point of the promotion made money?
ReplyDeleteFair.
ReplyDeleteI think the only two times I really wanted Shawn Michaels to win the WWF title were when he faced Sid at the '97 Rumble and when he fought Cena at WrestleMania.
ReplyDeleteOrton is sort of like the Brian Christopher of the USWA at this point to me: A guy that is okay, but I don't really buy into and that constantly goes over people that probably should be getting a stronger push.
ReplyDeleteThe more I watch guys like Bryan and Cesaro, guys that have come from outside the WWE system and have worked elsewhere, the more Orton gets exposed as a mediocre worker to me. It's not that I think he's terrible, it's that he's always just......there, never bringing much new to the table.
ReplyDeleteFor the point of debate, most of HBK's WM main events came after Wrestlemania was a juggernaut spectacle. I think it's hard to ascribe drawing power to one person. There are rare cases like Hogan and Austin but it's murky.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he hits the elevated DDT, the powerslam, and the RKO and sleepwalks through the match. I agree with @Guest "A guy that... I don't really buy into and that constantly goes
ReplyDeleteover people that probably should be getting a stronger push."
Orton plateaued as a mediocre, heatless wonder and they were going to get him over come hell or highwater. He was put over DX, Undertaker, Cena, Foley, Flair, and he finally got over after years in a case of, "oh, I know him".
Survivor Series 2003. I remember him selling his beating like death. The Jericho match at Mania is great but I feel like this is where he REALLY got his mojo back
ReplyDeleteTotally agree. I posted something similar before seeing you got there first.
ReplyDeleteHBK single-handedly turned a BORE of a show into on-my-feet entertainment with that 3-on-1 comeback (Cena should take notes on how to properly sell odds with this match). When Batista came down and cost HBK the match, I was fucking pissed. SO CLOSE!!!!
ReplyDeleteThat. I still prefer cocky Legend Killer Orton to Android Randy Orton, but I still enjoy him when he's paired with the right guy.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that match made it seem for sure that it wasn't a fluke and that Shawn had his groove back.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Daniel Bryan?
ReplyDeleteHis matches with Taker were the only reasons I cared about and bought the DVDs for Wrestlemania 25 & 26.
ReplyDeleteHis Montreal heel promo on RAW leading up to Summerslam 2005 is still the greatest single promo in the history of wrestling.
ReplyDeleteHe's an average wrestler emulating a great wrestler.
ReplyDeletePeople see the MOVEZ and think he's a great worker, but he has no real innovation or adaptation. Even Cena mixes things up when it comes to the way he wrestles. Orton has his one match.
He wrestles three completely different matches with Christian in 2011 -- the face/face encounters from Smackdown and OTL (I believe), the DQ-causes-title-change match at MITB, and the TLC match at Summerslam.
ReplyDeleteHe also worked around Mark Henry and built two really entertaining matches.
Saying he wrestles the same match every time out is exaggerating at best and completely wrong at worst. Cena has mixed up the way he wrestles on very few occasions, probably less so than Orton. The Punk/HBK matches (which were very similar), the Orton matches (Hmm...) and the Umaga/Khali matches.
Otherwise, it's lather, rinse, repeat.
All WWE guys are repetitive to an extent. Hell, every Shield six-man has essentially been the same match. But I think Orton does a pretty good job of adapting, at least when he gives a shit (which certainly hasn't been this year).
Watch him change his style when he wrestles Sheamus compared to when he wrestles Ziggler. He's also an extremely underrated bumper and seller. Nobody has made the Big Show's knockout punch look better, and nobody ever sold Sweet Chin Music any better.
Dolph Ziggler comes out of every Orton match looking better, for one. Mark Henry came out of his Orton matches looking better. Cody Rhodes certainly did.
ReplyDeleteSheamus lets guys beat the hell out of him more than Orton? OK, dude. Agree to disagree, as we usually do.
I agree. Post-comeback Shawn is the best I've ever seen at creating drama in a match.
ReplyDeleteSelectively using drawing power? Hogan, Austin or Rock is the greatest wrestler of all time if we're using drawing power. No perceived deficiency in workrate makes up for how much more they "drew" than other wrestlers.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we, as fans, care?
Agree agree agree. Call me old and cynical, but hes the blandest joker in the fed. I cannot understand what makes him popular.
ReplyDeleteI just watched his match with Cena at WM for the first time recently and I can't believe they didn't put the title on him.
ReplyDeleteI apologize if I sound like I'm speaking for Scott, but I think the reason he didn't accept Shawn right away can be summed up by a quote that I'll paraphrase from one of his books, "Call me a cynic, most people do. But I just don't buy into this finding jesus bull crap as a catch 22 explanation for all his bad behavior over the years. People like Shawn don't just change over night after spending years walking all over the little people."
ReplyDeleteI think Scott's tune was more along the lines of "I'm not going to forgive you just because you say you've changed. You want my forgiveness you earn it." It took him till like 2005 to do it, but eventually I think he proved himself, despite some of his early shawn-isms peaking out early on in 02-04. It probably helped that he realized he could still be a show stealer people would remember without a wwe/world title.
I agree. Confession: I find that match really overrated. The London match, however, is perfect and the best match Cena's ever had, for my money.
ReplyDeleteI actually think that had Austin not had the neck problems he did he would have been the GOAT, but that's another discussion for another time.
ReplyDeleteIf you have two guys who are equal you have to look at other factors. Also, I'd throw Savage on to that Hogan, Austin, Rock level of drawing power.
Mark Henry has actually developed into a passable worker and a great character.
ReplyDeleteThat's my problem with Orton, he never seems like he gives a shit. I also don't think that he's very good at bumping or selling. There's a difference between having signature spots and being repetitive. Orton's repetitive.
None of the guys you named are any higher on the card or more well-regarded because of Orton. A lot of the same things that bother me about HHH bother me about Orton.
ReplyDeleteI could watch the last 10 minutes of HBK/Angle 100 times.
ReplyDelete"Who's your daddy Montreal?" Best line ever.
ReplyDeleteIf you take into account match quality, promos, drawing, and everything else, Austin is my GOAT.
ReplyDeleteI don't care about drawing power though.
Breaking his back is probably the best thing that ever happened to Shawn. It took away what he loved and left him nothing but drugs which made him realize what it would do to his family so he got clean.
ReplyDeleteProfessionally it was great because it made him change his style and work smarter because he lost his aleticsism.
I've never heard of "aleticsism", but I find it hard to believe that a guy who did nip-ups into his forties ever lost it.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing he means that while Shawn was still athletic, he wasn't quite the ridiculously amazing athlete he was pre-back injury. And let's be fair, losing athleticism or not, Shawn did turn into a smarter worker once he came back.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but didn't Savage's reign as champion not really have good house show numbers until he turned on Hogan? So that's what, one month our of twelve where the houses were good?
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw this post I thought of SK's reaction to this SS '03 match..
ReplyDeleteHBK might not have been the best babyface character of all time, but IMO, Steamboat and Morton be damned, he was the best babyface worker of all time. No one did epic desperation like him.
ReplyDeleteYou are doing a hard job of convincing yourself if you think he doesn't squash his opponents. When Bryan was WHC and they had a main on Smackdown, Orton was just cutting off every comeback and completely shitting on Bryan, and he stalled the heat out completely. Every time, as a face, when he should be selling (fat chance of that) to build sympathy, he throws one of his lazy clotheslines and cuts off the momentum. He's just monumentally selfish in the ring, and it kills the story of the match. Plus he's bland and he's a whiny douche who botches semi-often but always manages to snitch like a little milk pussy and burn the other guy with it. He's gotta be my least favorite of all time. I legitimately believe that there is no non-markish reason to like Orton.
ReplyDeleteAnother factor is how Shawn is totally up front now on what a massive asshole he was. Watch the DVD with him and Bret interviewed together, Bret says in '96, Shawn told him he would only defend against "Clique" guys, Shawn claiming to not remember saying that but "I wouldn't be surprised if I did," that was his attitude then. Same deal with Orton in some ways, his DVD has him noting how much of a jerk he was a lot but changing his attitude. Compare that to Bret still acting like losing a title in Montreal would be a crime against all of Canada, shows the mindset of guys shapes things.
ReplyDeleteI've been a longtime fan too. 2011 was a great year for him but ever since he really hasn't cared.
ReplyDelete"No homo." Man, you get some idiots e-mailing you, Scott.
ReplyDeleteTo me that cements his greatness. Being able to move seamlessly into playing heel again, and finally managing to be both a great face and a great heel, as well as a great worker, was something pre-02 Michaels could never do.
ReplyDeleteArguably, Austin's neck injury at Summerslam 97 made him vulnerable enough to become iconic. Same way Bret's beating of him at WM 13 did.
ReplyDeleteHappy to be a mark, then.
ReplyDeleteHow is that Ortom's fault? He makes them look good, WWE pisses up the follow up.
ReplyDeleteLet's slow down a second here.
ReplyDeleteI'll preface this by saying that it was an amazing effort, Shawn bleeding like a stuck pig was tremendous, and his timing was (and always is) unmatched. But, he put Orton over?
I don't necessarily disagree with the notion, but it came down to Shawn vs. three guys plus a run-in to beat him. Put another name in place of Shawn's, and people would shit on him.
Don't worry, it's all about money to those people.
ReplyDeleteOrton's biggest problem, above all of his others (which are bad. Like, really bad) is that he comes off as a potential date rapist, even as a face.
ReplyDeleteOrton: So, whaddya say we head back to my place?
Girl: No thanks. Sorry.
Orton: Oh yeah? Well HAVE SOME ETHER BITCH!!
\_O___/
Seemed like everyone kept waiting for Michaels to revert back to his preback injury ways for 2 years after his comeback. Nothing but respect for him for coming back, doing things in the best interest of the company, and as Scott said having a huge steak of great main events. Think his retirement speech was the most transparent and genuine moments ever in wrestling.
ReplyDeleteTangent Michaels THREADJACK... Was his behind the scenes beef with Hogan in 05 complete shoot or slightly fabricated to help the buyrate? I remember Shawn cutting a weird promo after the match mocking Hogan for like 2 minutes then returning to face HBK.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that was bordering shoot territory since the original plan was to do a three-match series with the Hulkster, only for Hogan to change his mind and walk after getting the win at SS, leaving HBK hanging with just putting over Hogan, so HBK decided to oversell everything during the match and then mock the fact Hogan couldn't even be bothered to show up the next night on RAW.
ReplyDeleteI constantly have to watch my language; not for profanity, but for Dusty-isms.
ReplyDelete1. Athleticsism
2. Bahcycle
3. Clubberin
Jim Cornette is the same way; when Shawn came back, Jim said (paraphrasing) "Of course people like Shawn turn to Jesus. No one else on Earth will talk to them!"
ReplyDeleteYeah, my theory is that Orton will have a late-career resurgence a la Mark Henry. Seriously, MARK FREAKING HENRY has been one of the best guys on the roster for like two years now. 1998 SHough610 would have his mind blown by that.
ReplyDeleteMan, I don't think I noticed the overselling at the time. Gotta go back and watch it now. Pretty funny Michaels would do that
ReplyDeleteOh, you'll notice it. =D
ReplyDeleteI love Michaels in ring work and character but I still to this day dont buy him as a human being. His jesus shit is phony bologna imho. The straw that broke the camels back for me was the Hogan match and how he was out there to jsut straight humilate the man. and this was post jesus loving bible toting goodie two shoes. He will always be a jerkoff as a human being no matter what. I am now 8 months sober off drugs and alcohol and personally I havent found one change in my attitude or outlook on life. Maybe I need to find Jesus to truly get the Michaels makeover./ Rant
ReplyDeleteI agree and I loved his pants.
ReplyDelete