Hey Scott,
I was thinking about the death of the territories and thought this could be an interesting blog topic.
Let's say Vince either doesn't take over the WWF or doesn't try to take the company national and kill the territory system, who do you think would have been the next promoter/promotion to try to go national? Do you think they would have succeeded? How much longer do you think it would have taken for a company to try to replicate the success Vince wound up having?
I'm not old enough to be familiar with the territorial system (I turn 26 last night), but I enjoy watching and researching pre-WWF expansion wrestling and man, I wish I could time travel and go to shows back then. The way everyone speaks about those days, it seems like there was such an emotional attachment of fans to wrestlers/company that just doesn't exist anymore. I also think that the death of the territorial system has wound up hurting wrestling long term since wrestlers today don't have the same resources to utilize in terms of training and seasoning. I think Vince just kind of assumed that there would always be an influx of new talent and it'd never dry up, but it kind of has. I don't want to sound like the bitter old man rambling about how much better things were back in his day, but it seems like there was just a deeper talent pool 25+ years ago than there is today.
Cheers,
Pete
Well, I mean, Jim Crockett DID go national, although he ended up selling to Turner as a result. Bill Watts absolutely would have succeeded but for circumstances beyond his control, namely the collapse of the oil industry and Vince McMahon being a giant douchenozzle.
Thing is though, the territory system was gonna die either way, so if dinosaurs like Verne Gagne couldn't adapt to it, it was best they died off when they did. It had certain advantages with training and fan loyalty, but the transition to the PPV/TV model was like an atomic bomb on the wrestling scene that changed the way everyone had to do business to stay viable.
Sure, as a fan I miss going through the Apter mags and reading about crazy stuff going on in Continental or Tri-State or whatever, but even then as a fan there was a certain feeling of "Man, I really like these guys, I hope NWA or WWF snaps them up so I can watch them on TV every week."
Maybe someday WWE will collapse in itself due to a black hole of irony forming when they air one too many self-contradictory "Did You Know..." segments and territories will crop up again from the remnants. But then TNA would be the #1 company and I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN THAT WORLD!
Losing Magnum TA was the game changer for Crockett. Had the accident not happened, Crockett would have been in much better shape in 1987. Magnum vs. Flair post-Starrcade '86 would have done huge business, as would have Magnum vs. Nikita for the NWA title.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying Crockett would still be in business (he needed to fire Dusty in 1987), but he would have survived 1988.
You really should've wished the kid happy birthday.
ReplyDeleteHuge business for NWA or in general?
ReplyDeleteBill Watts absolutely would have succeeded but for circumstances beyond his control, namely the collapse of the oil industry and Vince McMahon being a giant douchenozzle.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to Bill Watts between Mid-South and when he was such a monumental disaster booking WCW?
For the NWA.
ReplyDeleteWhat's happy about being another year closer to death?
ReplyDeleteDepends how you go and where you're going.
ReplyDeleteNo. It would have been an incremental blip, not a game changer.
ReplyDeleteLike Owen Hart, Magnum TA's tragic accident have inflated his abilities. He wasn't the next Hulk Hogan, he was, at best, Lex Luger with a porn stache.
Eh, I enjoyed Watts' booking in WCW. Sure, it was a bit antiquated in certain aspects, but he crafted some good feuds.
ReplyDeleteBut he was whom Crockett was grooming as the top babyface. He would have had a good title reign. I assume he would have dropped the title to Flair at Starrcade '87
ReplyDeleteHe was the guy being groomed as the top babyface. At the time of his accident, Crockett was short on main event babyfaces. I assume Magnum would have lost the title to Flair at Starrcade '87.
ReplyDeleteYou're going to the grave. Why does it matter how you go?
ReplyDeleteBecause some hurt a helluva lot more than others.
ReplyDeletecrockett was always short on main event babyfaces. thats how jcp was booked. heels dominate.
ReplyDeleteto groom magnum as this superhero was unlike they did anything before or after.
like zana said people say cuz of the accident magnum was goin to have this big run... history proves otherwise.
he changed his style to reflect and even older form of wrestling.
ReplyDeletehe didnt noticed the business gettin smaller and faster during his sabbatical
Pain and pleasure doesn't matter. You are going to die regardless.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoy the in ring product from that time. Great tag team stuff. Vader as a burgeoning monster.
ReplyDeletealthough turner and barnett were the first to use it, vince capitalized on cable being his "advancing force" on killing the territories.
ReplyDeleteUSA just reached so many people, while other promoters were goin the cheap route buying up time on local channel 5, vince was digging himself a financial grave hoping his wwf would catch on the usa network so he could cross those borders. all the while having usa do the prelim work for him.
its genius. i wish i had that vince now.
if there was no vince, someone would have made that jump eventually.
jcp/gcw/uwf had tbs
awa was on espn
my money is on one of the 4.
Babyfaces didn't get long title runs in JCP. That was the WWF business model, and they were positioning themselves as the anti-WWF.
ReplyDeleteTGGI
ReplyDeleteCake!
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, with the success of internet blogging (especially video reviewers like That Guy with the Glasses or Angry Video Game nerd), social media, and the overall power of the internet itself, I'm surprised that no wrestling federation has tried to go completely online.
ReplyDeleteFor example, they film their shows entirely for the live crowds as usual. Film backstage skits, interviews, yadda yadda. The usual. But then upload the entirety of the show to YouTube or Blip. Have a partnership with said site. They'd wind up having more global exposure than getting a television or PPV deal. Keep the website updated frequently with roster updates and the sort.
The big thing would be figuring out a way to keep the production value high to compete with the sleek-looking shows like WWE and TNA. They'd need the highest value HD cameras and such. And be able to upload the videos very quickly.
I just think the current model for a lot of indies doesn't work anymore. CHIKARA and ROH, for example, could really do well under an internet model like that.
Or death, depending on how old they are. =p
ReplyDeleteIt's still going to hurt until then. I'd take a quick death over a slow one.
ReplyDeletei wonder if the territory days are romanticized a bit. today we have he advantage of bein able to see all the old territory stuff a once, but back then all you got was the area you lived in, so if all you had was billy jack haynes in oregon you probably were gonna have a bad time
ReplyDeleteCompare the guys Watts brought in at the start of his stint to the guys at the end of his stint in early '93. As he was getting reacclimated to the business he was bringing in familiar dinosaurs like Doc, Gordy, Valentine, etc. Plus the sort of antiquated Simmons push. But by the time he was let go, Vader was the top dog and Watts was signing 2 Cold Scorpio, Chris Benoit, Rob Van Dam, and Steve Regal. It took him a bit of time, but Watts still had a strong eye for talent.
ReplyDeleteI didn't agree with every Watts move in WCW, to put it mildly. But one thing that can't be denied is that Watts put thought into, had a reason for, and believed in everything he did. No other WCW headman can say the same.
The idea of ANYBODY being groomed as top babyface while Dusty was around is laughable. I suspect Magnum would have turned on Dusty before 1987 was out.
ReplyDeleteYes and no. I'm old enough to have started watching wrestling during the territory days (AWA, starting in the late 70s, and then Stampede from '82 on), and you have to realize that not everyone was reading PWI and hearing all sorts of information about what was going on elsewhere. You might hear a little bit about certain wrestlers ("I hear this Flair guy is really good. He wrestles down south somewhere."), but you didn't have anywhere near the amount of out-of-your-territory knowledge that is available now, even without being able to watch matches on Youtube or wherever.
ReplyDeleteMostly, you just watched and enjoyed your area's product, presuming it was good, or at least decent, and what you didn't know about other places didn't get your knickers in a knot.
If pain and pleasure were immutable truths, then there were exist no concept of masochism.
ReplyDeletePain and pleasure are illusions of our own device. I choose to treat those two imposters just the same, and tell them both "Fuck you. I'm going to die."
Deep, bro.
ReplyDeleteThere is no depth. There is only death.
ReplyDeleteYes to all of this. I don't understand how SHough could say it was "a monumental disaster." Maybe he wasn't watching, but it was far from it.
ReplyDeleteAnd ROCK.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpVpMbGOvhI
I'm not sure Watts would have succeeded long-term, as evidenced by his tenure in WCW. He wasn't terribly willing to change with the times.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't.
ReplyDelete/Ron Howard
I want to upvote this, but I'm not entirely onboard. As much as I enjoyed and appreciated Magnum, I'm not convinced he would've made that much of an impact in '87. He'd still have to contend with the Dusty problem, and no guarantees that Flair would've put him over in the end.
ReplyDeletethis guy also gets it.
ReplyDelete2 things.
ReplyDelete1. Watts kinda had an eye... Jim Ross had the eye for talent. Watts brought in old football players and "tough guys"... he kept pushing his shitty son
2. Watts brought in all that talent for CHHHHEEEAAAPPPP. Sure he brought in the MVC on a short deal from AJPW, but the cruisers were brought in on per app basis and none stayed longer than 3 months outside of 2CS.
Not too sure myself. While Vince had the spot on USA, his attack on the territories was built on the back of his syndicated network (the USA shows got the characters over; Superstars/Challenge sold the house shows), which he paid out the ass for. Not to mention TBS was in more homes and drew higher ratings.
ReplyDelete"You're in more dire need of a blow job than any white man in history!"
ReplyDeleteHe stopped paying attention to the business.
ReplyDeleteHe ultimately would have been Sting before Sting was Sting; the guy they thought they were replacing Flair with, then they couldn't get the belt back on Flair fast enough.
ReplyDeleteIf Daniel Bryan was in a career ending accident tomorrow, people would say the same thing. Think about that.
ReplyDeleteWe have a huge body of work that speaks for Bryan Danielson's ability.
ReplyDeleteShow me one great match of Magnum TA that doesn't involve Ric Flair or Tully Blanchard carrying his ass.
Yeah, I wouldn't call it a disaster at all. I really enjoyed that time period, but it just wasn't popular with the people working for him or the people above him. I think given an autonomous situation and Turner's money ala Bischoff, he could have made a real go of it.
ReplyDeleteOle Anderson I would call a disaster. Watts was almost in the black when he was fired, something no one other than Bischoff could ever claim.
Though to look at it another way, it was Watts groomed Ross to become a major player in THIS BUSINESS so he couldn't have found a better person to be his right-hand.
ReplyDeleteI think that lack of autonomy was one of the bigger issues. He was able to do however he pleased in Mid-South, but with Turner there were always suits above whoever was in charge to answer to.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, it was more of a cranky response to a revision of history I'm seeing regarding Vince. Because the company is in a rut and Vince is being stubborn about changing I think people are retroactively claiming that Vince wasn't that great as a promoter (on another thread there were some posters that said Vince was either lucky or given too much credit for the success he's had).
ReplyDeleteI'm not defending the current product, but Vince is inarguably the greatest promoter ever. I've been critical of the Rock on here as I haven't enjoyed his run the last two years. That doesn't invalidate his greatness from 1998-2003.
Well, ad revenue from BlipTV would bring in some profits. There would also still be the live shows and they could still sell DVDs as usual.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I don't know. It was just a thought.
The GWF was poised to take over if not for that Damn McMahon. They had a billion dollar investor from the middle east!!! JOE PEDICINO TOLD US SO!!!! THE PATRIOT WAS THE NORTH AMERICAN CHAMPION TO LEAD US INTO THE NEXT MILLENIUM!!!
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't drink.
Have you been on the Internet in the past two years? Ad revenue is everywhere. You can't watch a video on Youtube without stumbling into a fucking Cialis ad.
ReplyDeleteVince wasn't even the first on USA. He stole the USA slot from Joe Blanchard's SWCW. What Vince McMahon had was a vision and blind, dumb ambition. America's history wasn't written by the men who innovated, it was written by the men who were too dumb to create but clever enough to see how to exploit those who did. Vince McMahon is America.
ReplyDeleteYou know you're not going anywhere when one of your big attractions is the "other" Tugboat.
ReplyDeleteDo people really inflate Owen that much? It's generally accepted that he was a top-tier worker and a funny interview guy, but I've yet to see too many people imply that he was a Main Eventer in the making- he had one run on top and that was it, and was actively midcarding around until he died.
ReplyDeletethats because they were gonna transition the belt to Sid at Havoc but Flair vetoed it because he knew that he was gonna be the Black Scorpion (and subsequently get the title back)
ReplyDeleteIf Sid got the belt, that cuts out Flair as perennial main eventer, especially with Herd trying to reduce his role on top.
Thats why I believe what I believe about the bullshit with Magnum... Magnum would have been just another babyface going against Flair. Everybody SAYS he would have been huge, but given the track records of the parties involved... I dont believe it.
Magnum was only in the biz like 3.5 years at the time of the accident. He wasnt a prodigy in the ring. He had good people protecting him and DUsty booked him as his heir apparent.
ReplyDeleteHe was to be Dusty's babyface pawn against RIc as they werent getting along.
Its not Dusty who is the problem, he would lay down Dusty (who was on the way out as a wrestler anyways)
ReplyDeleteMagnum's problem would have been Flair.
After the return bouts with Flair where FLair "Puts him over" then you have to contend with
-Tully: In a non-kayfabe sense TUlly would have made his play for the main event as soon as Flair jobbed, citing that he just worked a vicious program with him the year before.
-Nikita: who just worked a program months before.
So both of those guys are automatically elevated by proxy.
Then right down the pipeline you have Sid, Barry, Sting and Luger.
Luger and Sting were main eventing by 88. Sid by 90
All those guys in the main event. Young ripped to shreds... and HERD wanting to push FLair out the picture. Flair would have been gone. So Flair would have fucked him on the way to becoming the champ, or afterwards by hogging the spotlight or threatening to jump.
But the accident happened.
So Flair being the liar that he is "oh yea, i was gonna put him over. He was gonna be our answer to Hogan."
yea right.
Holy crap, what was that about?
ReplyDelete1. All that means is that Watts knew how to delegate roles properly. That should be a point in his favor.
ReplyDelete2. Just like the folks in Nuremberg, Watts was only following orders. He was given explicit orders to cut costs, so he did.
Foley had issues with Watts but was ultimately unhappy when he was let go. And less happy once Bischoff was in charge.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Raven.
ReplyDelete2. who orders was he following?
ReplyDeletehe was bringing them in on reduced rates to make him seem like a wunderkind. he was up in turner exec offices telling the big-wigs (paraphrasing "you dont need to pay these guys the 156... these guys will do this for free.")
Watts was the booker, creative direction and financial direction went through him. turner just cut the check on his say so. Jake was supposed to get a huge deal under Frye, but he quit and Watts came in and put the kibosh on it.
the buck stopped with him.
Classic Flair. "Our answer to Hogan" says the guy who didn't just put Luger over when it counted. Luger, who could have BEEN their answer to Hogan
ReplyDeleteI would agree. However, I do think that if Vince & Austin had been willing, Owen could have done another great run as main event heel vs. Austin as the Corporate gun
ReplyDeleteScott putski!
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly certain that if Vince didn't succeed then LOW would have taken over the national wrestling scene. Right now we'd be talking about whether to induct Little Fiji into the HOF and watching matches like this on the GLOW Channel -->> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl9ik6JY7aQ
ReplyDeleteOn the AWA DVD, Vince himself notes that a key reason he won was so many old-time promoters never had competition, they didn't know how to deal with what Vince was doing. That whole disc points out that the AWA was going to fall apart because Gagne couldn't flex with the times and such, can't really blame Vince too much on it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, on the two World Class DVDs, they both mention how the territory was so hot, it could have gone national but Fritz refused, saying "Texas is big enough for us" and refused to go when they would have taken off. For Watts, he was already running into troubles as he refused to give DiBiase or Duggan runs with the belt so they jumped ship to WWF so even if the Oklahoma economy hadn't collapsed, I don't see UWF lasting that much longer then it did. On the other hand, just imagine latter JCP/early WCW without Sting....