From the new WON:
"Extreme Rules this year was listed by WWE as doing 131,000 domestic buys and 104,000 overseas buys, for 235,000 total. The domestic number is down 17.6% and the overseas number is down 7.1% from last year's 159,000 and 112,000 numbers, totaling 271,000. [...] As far as profit margin goes, a Lesnar show needs to do about 70,000 added buys to where the profit would be the same. So this was down from last year, but last year was a Lesnar show. The 2011 Extreme Rules show did 216,000 total buys and 108,000 domestic. So, more than any show to date, Lesnar didn't increase business anywhere close to enough to justify the expense."
The golden goose appears to be running out of eggs, but really they've made him into just another guy so it's hard to be too surprised about that. Having him headline a B show, in a match that no one wanted to see, was also a huge mistake.
Wasn't Cena vs Ryback advertised as the main event? Or am I Benoit-sane?
ReplyDeleteYou mean that losing totally diminished his character's allure and overall drawing power? Stunning.
ReplyDeleteViking Space Lord Brock Lesnar has no use for maths.
ReplyDeleteIn the mind of Vince McMahon:
ReplyDeleteSomeone not named Brock Lesnar will be blamed for this!
Except for the one that says how big a pile of money he's getting.
ReplyDeleteThey haven't used Brock as the special attraction he is, other than the Cena match (in which they jobbed him). No one wanted Lesnar-Hunter, so we got it three times. They haven't used him to make new stars or deliver any marquee matches that might generate short term interest
ReplyDeletePretty simple ... Cena vs Lesnar in Lesnars return match was a big draw. Tough to follow up on buyrate wise especially for a B show.
ReplyDeletePeople will pay to see Brock. They will not pay to see Triple H face Brock (again)
ReplyDeleteIt's not hard - if it's a match involving steel steps, you know Brock is jobbing. It's like how a slingshot in the corner would always beat Mr. Perfect.
ReplyDeleteIt's not surprising, though - as ATL said, no one wants to see him vs. HHH, and no one can remember him winning since his match with Cena. He doesn't appear that often to change the dynamic, and he doesn't have a recent-enough body of work to be considered a killer. And he doesn't seem to care either way (not getting on him for that - bully for him letting people beat him while he laughs to the bank).
Shoot, how many people expect him to job to Punk at Summerslam?
Anyone who thought Brock was going to be a draw was fooling themselves.
ReplyDeleteBrock was a UFC draw because wrestling fans wanted to see him, in addition to UFC fans being extra angry a "wrassler" was invading. He is not a wrestling draw because UFC fans don't give a shit about wrestling and weren't following him to buy WWE PPVs.
That would make it even worse, because then you're paying a guy a huge chunk of money to appear on a show where he's not even the advertised main event.
ReplyDeleteCena vs. Brock drew big money. Brock vs. HHH drew not that much money. HHH can't draw in 2013. Brock can't draw when he's been beaten in 50% of his matches. The way they would've made the most money out of Lesnar is having him destroy everyone and win the WWE title. Lesnar can then defend the title once a month on PPV. They could build a new star by having them dethrone Lesnar. Someone like Bryan, hell even Miz. Just having Cena and HHH feud with him when they are already stars does nothing to help the future of this business.
ReplyDeleteBrock is a draw because he brings wrestling fans back.
ReplyDelete1. HHH/Brock 1 did a pretty great buyrate.
ReplyDelete2. Can't put the title on a guy that works 3 times a year.
Why not? They put it on The Rock, didn't they?
ReplyDeleteSure they can. It worked for Hogan back in the day.
ReplyDeleteAnd how well did that work out? He was barely on Raw during the WM buildup.
ReplyDeleteHogan worked more than 3 times a year.
ReplyDeleteAh, you're right.
ReplyDeleteIt was more like 5 or 6 times.
I'm pretty sure he worked more than 5 or 6 house shows.
ReplyDeleteNothing like HHH's ego driving down business.
ReplyDeleteLesnar has like 15 dates on his contract. Instead of dumb appearances where all he does is stand there of F-5 someone, have him wrestle. Heyman can do the build ups for the PPV like he did for Punk at Payback.
ReplyDeleteI was never in favor of Rock getting the belt by the way. Rock is a piece of **** in my opinion.
Hogan worked 15 matches in 1997.
ReplyDeleteBut he was on Nitro every week.
ReplyDeleteSo you're in favor putting the title on Hogan in '97 when he worked only barely once a month, but not in favor of Lesnar because he worked once every couple months but was on TV a bunch of times?
ReplyDeleteMaybe CM Punk draws a little better then Vince thinks...
ReplyDeleteEach character is different. In Brock's case, having him job at WrestleMania, when combined with his job to Cena, and having HHH "knock him out" severely damaged his image. A crazy dominant heel coming in and destroying the company's top stars is interesting and unique. A former star coming back and trading wins with another semi-retired guy isn't unique or interesting. Plus I legit don't think people care about HHH as a babyface.
ReplyDeleteIf Brock was on Raw every week cutting promos and building heat, then yes. Working is more than just wrestling a match.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't draw as a face -- never has, never will.
ReplyDeleteLesnar can't cut promos. That's what Heyman is for. Would you be in favor of Lesnar as champion but only wrestling once a month and Heyman being his mouthpiece each week?
ReplyDeleteOr as a heel.
ReplyDeleteYou mean treating Brock like everyone else results in people not caring for him? Color me SHOCKED!
ReplyDeleteIf Lesnar was out there and causing shit to move shit forward, of course. But he has to be there every week.
ReplyDeleteHe (potentially) WAS a draw. Then whoever's bright idea it was to put him against HHH THREE FUCKING TIMES is the one to blame for killing that.
ReplyDeleteAll this talk about Brock's win percentage affecting butyrate makes me wonder if Punk (newly face) needs the Summerslam win more or if Lesnar does.
ReplyDeleteSorry, but Lesnar's pretty much a lost cause at this point. At least as far as "dream match/HUGE buyrate" potential goes.
ReplyDeleteI think it could've worked with him explicitly telling the audience that they don't deserve him for free so he'll only show up on PPV. Meanwhile Heyman does the heavy lifting promo-wise. Maybe give Heyman a couple of henchmen to do beatdowns and such. But you couldn't have Brock just not show up without a reason week after week.
ReplyDeleteNo one wanted to see him wrestle huntor. Hhh is by far the worst draw out of any "main event" guy since 1990. Also they killed lesnars heat by jobbing him out. Is he back to job to cena and hhh or is he back to sell tickets? I could care less about seeing punk go over lesnar but hopefully it will be a good match. He and hhh went 0/3
ReplyDeleteMaybe. But has Punk got to a point where a loss doesn't hurt him anyways?
ReplyDeleteCrowd would've shit all over it pretty quickly. That might work for one PPV buildup.
ReplyDeleteLesnsr was brought back to be a jtts not a draw
ReplyDeleteI thought that originally, but his series with Cactus Jack, Iron Man and Backlash with the Rock, Batisita, Cena, all did big business I think, so give the devil is due..
ReplyDeleteI wanted to see HHH/Lesnar at SummerSlam.
ReplyDeleteThis should all be part of "The People's History of HHH". C'mon Scott, let's do it!
ReplyDeleteAgain, factually and drastically incorrect. This is smark wishful thinking at its finest. HHH is the biggest heel draw in WWF/E history.
ReplyDeleteWell good to know someone did. For me, if a match is gonna get 25 minutes I'd prefer it to be good
ReplyDeleteSo did I. After we saw how much their styles didn't mesh, I'd seen enough.
ReplyDeleteJobbing him to Cena in the first match instead of running the "Rocky" program leading to Summerslam or Survivor Series was downright negligence.
ReplyDeleteWithout question, and beyond the typical "smarks freak out way too much about who wins and loses" level of it not mattering. He's bulletproof.
ReplyDeleteHHH is a bigger draw than pretty much anyone not named Hogan, Stone Cold, The Rock, Cena and Batista. He's certainly a bigger draw than guys like Shawn, Bret, Edge, Orton and (outside of the last few WrestleManias) the Undertaker.
ReplyDeleteMaybe, maybe not. There's only so much you can do with a guy who has only 15 or whatever appearances all year. And if the goal is to make that money back plus some, you can't waste too many appearances on free TV.
ReplyDeleteHe was gonna be a huge draw but hhh took care of that.
ReplyDeleteThey haven't done that. They've treated him- regardless of if he wins or loses- like a killer and a big deal every time he's come out of hiding. His feuds/matches have been/will be with the top three stars in the company (insert deserved joke about how HHH shouldn't be or isn't a "top three star" but this is about perception and how Brock has been handled). He gets to come and go as he pleases and is immediately reinserted into the main event.
ReplyDeleteOr as a tweener
ReplyDeleteCan't agree on this one.
ReplyDeleteIf he was such a draw he would have main evented more than wm16 during the attitude era
ReplyDeleteFacts don't require agreement. Opinions do. This is a fact.
ReplyDeleteAnd you didn't know the match would suck. No one did. The only frame of reference we had for either Brock or Hunter, both long removed from their days as regular performers, was their most recent matches. Both of their most recent matches (HHH/Taker in the cell, Brock/Cena at Extreme Rules) were match of the year contenders. The storyline made sense and was compelling to me and I thought the match would be good. It wasn't. Sometimes that happens.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why you shouldn't put the title on him or build the promotion around him.
ReplyDeleteWhen Stone Cold and The Rock (who were indisputably bigger draws) were around? Nope. Plus he only became a main eventer halfway through the era.
ReplyDeleteJudging by the buyrate, a lot of other people did too. And as for match quality, all 3 matches have been ok. It's just that Brock/Cena raised expectations WAY too high.
ReplyDeleteRock, Savage, and Andre say hello.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't brocks fault those matches werent good
ReplyDeleteWell I watched hhh have a 2.5 20 minute match with punk. So I didn't expect much
ReplyDeleteThen please, back up your facts with numbers, or something other than "That's a fact"
ReplyDeleteThe announcers may treat him like a killer but Triple H certainly never did. He was constantly shrugging off Brock as a joke in the two 2013 match builds. The first one was better.
ReplyDeleteActually, you may have a point with those guys. But he's certainly the biggest heel draw of recent times. HHH not being a draw is one of the hilariously pervasive fallacies in wrestling fandom. HHH being "the guy who wrestles the guy who draws money" is a Cornettism that's mostly incorrect.
ReplyDeleteBrock's contract really fucks up what you can do with him. You can't just throw him in with Random Midcarder because no one would buy them having a chance against Brock. There's less than a handful of established guys to pair up with him before you're just repeating the same match (*cough*HHH*snort*). He can't be there every week to built to anything so it really limits your options.
ReplyDeleteIf it were up to me, I'd have him only show up for PPV outside a couple Raw appearances, have him totally destroy every "name" available in consecutive months (Cena twice, followed by Punk and then HHH), then go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Cena goes the Rocky III route (changes his training, gets re-inspired, blah blah) and finally defeats Brock
or
2) Have someone like Daniel Bryan get built up as the next challenger and Bryan ends up slaying the monster in the end. But I'd go 3 matches with it. Have Brock underestimate Bryan and narrowly win the first match, Bryan earns another shot (MitB?) and defeats a focused Brock, and then Bryan defeats him *again* in the rubber match to prove it wasn't a fluke.
While the losses did hurt the 'special' nature of seeing Lesnar, it also didn't help that nothing he did built to anything else. He just kind of shows up, fights, loses, then leaves. Rinse and repeat.
ReplyDeleteIt makes more sense if he destroys a few guys who need time off, building to a big showdown with someone.
I have no problem with Cena beating Brock, but it should have been done last, not first.
Uh, Rock is recent.
ReplyDeleteSince you people love using Meltzer's dirtsheet reports for reference, here's some stuff Meltzer said about HHH's drawing power all the way back in 2004 (while comparing him to Bret as a draw):
ReplyDelete"His big money PPVs that he was on top on (1.0 or better, and that standard is actually unfair to him because the expanding universe has led to a decline in buy rates, and while you can argue that the old buy rates show it was more popular, the same decline is evident in boxing as Tyson-Holyfield buy rates are way lower than Leonard buy rates or early Tyson buy rates, but nobody in boxing will make the argument that anything but Tyson-Holyfield was the PPV peak) would be only behind Rock, Austin, Hogan and Flair. For total PPV money drawn, he'd be well ahead of Flair."
"When Hart was on top, there was never a period he could draw more than half of what HHH was drawing on his own at his peak, for a regular house show."
"You can find countless examples of shows without Austin nor Rock that drew great with HHH as the top star."
"HHH vs. Tajiri in a singles match was a tons bigger event in Japan than Hart vs. Randy Savage's unique dream match in Japan."
Please explain how its fact.
ReplyDeleteIf Brock losing was such a damaging blow to his drawing power, why was he the biggest draw in MMA history with a mediocre career record of 5-4? You know, in a real sport where wins and losses matter? Maybe there's something I don't know about MMA that makes a won-loss record matter less than in a fake sport. I'm not a fan of it, so I don't know.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do know is that Brock was never a proven box-office draw in his previous WWE tenure. And I don't know this for fact, but it always seemed extremely unlikely that he would lure MMA fans to pro wrestling. So the market for Brock was...what, exactly? Lapsed WWE fans who'd taken up UFC fandom since they stopped watching wrestling? That's great, but again: he was never a major draw as a pro wrestler to begin with.
Maybe they knew quickly that they'd miscalculated with him, and thus there was no point to having him run roughshod over their top star(s) when a return on their investment was unlikely. And this is assuming the rumors about his huge contract were even true. Do we know for sure he's making a guaranteed $5M per year? It seemed unlikely at the time and given his availability and their usage of him, it still does.
I don't think the Brock experiment works well without doing that, at least IMO. You end up with what we have had, a much lesser version of the Rock's return. He's just randomly matched up against guys with no reasoning behind it. At least Rock wanted to prove he was the best (and then eventually prove he could be the champion again). There needs to be some type of motivation.
ReplyDeleteHogan left WWE a wasteland for HBK and Bret. Austin and Rock left a goldmine for HHH.
ReplyDeletePutting him that high on the list of money drawers isn't as off-base as pretending he never drew a dime like you're trying to do. You don't have to personally enjoy his work to acknowledge that on balance, he's clearly been a financial success over the duration of his career.
ReplyDeleteI've never liked Hogan. Should I come up with some contrived, contrarian argument that he actually wasn't a draw? You seem like you'd be the guy to help with that.
While I'd actually agree with you in terms of Trips being a bigger draw OVERALL than most of the guys you named (except Bret, who was HUGE overseas), it just doesn't hold true the last few years. Since about 2010 or so, Trips just isn't nearly the draw he used to be.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you going to do man, it's the only way to get him period. I'm a massive Brock fan, I'm bummed I only get to see once a few months but I'll take what I can get.
ReplyDeleteFine. That's all I was looking for other than "FACT".
ReplyDeleteAnd i've never read The Observer, ever.
I was psyched as hell for their first match together. Not so much for their rematches.
ReplyDeleteOh, I don't doubt that HHH in 2013 isn't that big of a draw. But in terms of both total money drawn and drawing power in general, he's ahead of Bret, Shawn, Edge, Angle, Orton etc.
ReplyDeleteHe drew in UFC because people wanted to see him lose.
ReplyDeleteDitto.
ReplyDelete2004 does not equal 2013. Yes, HHH did draw for a period, specifically 2002-3 I think. It's unfair to say he's a better draw then HBK and Brett since he had all the advantages of being a part of the biggest boom in the history of the business and then rising that guy as "the top guy in the company." Yes he drew for a period but nobody really wants to see him now.
ReplyDeleteThat was definitely part of it but not the only reason. You don't become one of the biggest PPV draws of all time by people just wanting to see you lose.
ReplyDeleteAgain, not doubting that's he not as big of a draw in 2013 as he used to be. With that being said, I don't see any logical way of saying that for the bulk of his main event he wasn't a bigger draw than Shawn and Bret for their respective main event runs.
ReplyDeleteWithout a doubt, and that further informs my point: he was an MMA draw because that sport's fans hate-watched him. He was never a proven wrestling draw. So why did anyone, WWE brass and smarks alike, think he'd be any sort of draw as a pro wrestler in 2012-13? Where was the evidence?
ReplyDeleteIf the object is to make a profit off the investment, you either go all-out or you don't do it at all. WWE has gone down the middle, basically half-assing it. And I doubt they'll break even on Brock.
ReplyDeleteYea, its a tough argument. Like I said I think he had some advantages but he did draw in his prime and have a good run.
ReplyDelete"why was he the biggest draw in MMA history with a mediocre career record of 5-4?"
ReplyDeleteBecause he up against other big names and plus the WWE background. He may not have been a huge wrestling draw prior to UFC(Putting him exclusively on Smackdown had a lot to do with that) but the WWE brand name was strong and people wanted to see that brand mix it up in the UFC.
Dana White and Brock did the rest.
That's EXACTLY how he should have been used - state right upfront that Brock can ONLY be seen on PPV, and then, after each PPV, have the announcers rave about what an incredible match it was. In the mean time, have Heyman do most of the TV build via promos.
ReplyDeleteSee? Hype something up, and then make people pay to see it. Simple.
(The only exception would be a big, special "Raw", like "Raw 1000" or something. Let Brock beat the crap out of someone on there, just to remind people of what he's capable of. Give the audience a small taste, and let them pay for more.)
Shawn and Bret are questionable, but I don't have any facts to back that up.
ReplyDeleteBut a bigger draw than The Undertaker? No. No, absolutely not. The Undertaker has been a household name in wrestling pretty much since his debut in 1990.. He has been consistently a draw for close to two decades. He's moved more merchandise than Triple H could ever dream. Has his popularity waned at periods? Absolutely, but even as the Biker-Taker, he was still a huge draw because HE'S THE FRIGGING UNDERTAKER.
It's almost as if feuding with Triple H for a year and leaving for months at a time turned some people off.
ReplyDeleteRock seems like a nice enough guy, but, yeah, I was never a huge fan of his. And his "return run" was friggin' awful.
ReplyDeleteEXACTLY!! If he was champ and said he doesn't fight for free, that would generate him legit heat with the fans. Use Heyman as the mouthpiece and shoot some pre-recorded footage of him in 1 or 2 day sessions and use them on the show. (Brock working out, Brock at WWE HQ, Brock catching someone on the street/backstage and kicking their ass - all pre-taped and set to run each week).
ReplyDeleteNot saying that could work for a year, but at least you could get a good 3 months out of it. They could have milked it from Royal Rumble to Wrestlemania if it wasn't for the Cena/Rock matchup.
Fair enough. Heel+ plus sideshow attraction of a wrassler in the holy and sanctified octagon?
ReplyDeleteHeath Herring was a big name? Maybe in Japan but not in the US. Mir pulled his weight by angering the beast.
ReplyDeleteShawn and Bret aren't questionable. I won't dispute that circumstances were more favourable for HHH than they were for Shawn and Bret, but he's still a bigger draw than both.
ReplyDelete'Taker's a big draw, but prior to the past few WrestleManias, he drew less than HHH over the years. Then again, Trips was on RAW (and quite often the world champion or at the very least a contender for the world championship), so that may have had something to do with it.
You simply can't make a direct comparison between these three runs. HHH rode the wave of the Attitude Era, led by Austin, Mr. McMahon, and Rock. I'm not going to say HHH was never a draw or even that he wasn't a great draw, but it's not a very fair comparison. HHH wasn't responsible for the boom and Hart and Michaels weren't responsible for the bust. So to give anyone credit or blame for the overall numbers is disingenuous and incorrect.
ReplyDeleteYou (not specifically you but you know what I'm saying) should at least measure how shows headlined by HHH/Hart/Michaels compared to those headlined by others during the same period before you're going to make such claims.
Hmm...he wasn't as big of a draw because he ended up on smackdown... I wonder if another wrestler benefited by having hhhim off raw in 2003/2004?
ReplyDeleteOh,i'll agree there. Why they brought him in to do anything other than a Cena program,i'll never know. And then resign him? Odd move.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that they raised expectations as much as at this stage of his career, HHH was just not the guy to mesh with Brock. He has the old-school wrestling mentality to provide the contrast to Brock's violent, MMA/hardcore style, but not the athleticism or stamina to take it on for 25-30 minutes.
ReplyDeleteI actually thought the last 10 or so minutes of their WM match was really good, but it meandered before that.
Then again, maybe you'll prove to be right and Cena/Brock just captured lightning in a bottle.
Really gonna nitpick that one?
ReplyDeleteIt takes two to tango, kiddo. Except in the most extreme examples (see: Smith/Hart at SS92) both guys share the blame or praise.
ReplyDelete+wrestling fans+Dana White+Brock Lesnar acting like a crazy homeless homicidal viking.
ReplyDeleteHHH was obviously the number 2 or number 3 guy (depending on whether or not Austin was present) for most of the second half of the AE, but he drew better as the second or third biggest star than Shawn and Bret did as the top guys. It's like saying that HBK and Bret were the best of a bad bunch, whereas HHH was the second or third best of a great bunch.
ReplyDeleteI definitely think HHH/Brock was a major styles clash and I think Brock doesn't have the cardio for 20+ matches anymore. Need to keep them 10-15 full on crazy action.
ReplyDeleteI personally thought that was about a 3.5 star match, and as I recall, so did Scott. Also: who cares? You keep adjusting whatever your point is supposed to be on the fly to fit your all-encompassing negative opinion of HHH.
ReplyDeleteWhile Brock wasn't much of a draw during his first run in WWE, it's not really fair to compare "the old" Brock to "the new" Brock.
ReplyDeleteFirst Run: Around for only two years, not very charismatic, got a MASSIVE push right out of the gate (that, at the time, many fans were not happy about), only started putting on consistently good matches after the first year, relegated to "Smackdown" for most of his run, had a few injuries during a short time.
Second Run: Former UFC Champion, one of the biggest PPV draws of all time, was legitimately "missed" by fans that wanted to see him feud with top-level opponents.
I mean, it's almost like saying that "The Ringmaster" to "Stone Cold".
With Heyman selling it? No way. They would have booed, but it would have been the exact right type of heat.
ReplyDelete"My client does not - and will not - wrestle on television. If you want to see him destroy his next opponent, buy the PPV."
This would have absolutely worked, and it still can. Put the strap on Brock at SummerSlam, have him appear the next night on Raw declaring Heyman would set up any new challengers, and he'll see them the next month on pay per view, and the combination could get ridiculously nuclear heat.
It was the same strategy they used when he won the WWE title and bolted to Smackdown exclusively. Granted, that was handled poorly and was just an excuse to give HHH a world title, but if you book it differently, it works really well. Like all things WWE, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteNot as a fighter in any case. He does get some pretty good face pops these days, however.
ReplyDeleteIt'd work for a month tops before fans get sick of it. Brock is the draw, not Heyman. Because people might be willing to suspend their disbelief for that type of angle short term, but they know the real reason he isn't there and they'll eventually revolt.
ReplyDeleteYeah I was pumped to see Lesnar/Triple H the first time too. It was the second and third matches that bothered me.
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about the terms as far as travel or total dates. Obviously that part was accurate. I'm talking specifically about the guaranteed money.
ReplyDeleteBut in the same way that Bret and Shawn went through a dark period after the first boom, Triple H(though not as severe) was their guy in the inevitable down cycle that follows the boom. Their situations are similar.
ReplyDeleteRight, except there wasn't any guarantee- or even any logic- to the idea that his MMA drawing power would translate to him as a pro wrestling draw.
ReplyDeleteReally gonna keep beating that dead horse?
ReplyDeleteDefinitely was. Even before Brock came back, it's a fact that MMA's explosion in popularity was largely due to Brock and wrestling fans. So WWE thought "Hey, let's bring him back and those wrestling fans that went with him too."
ReplyDeleteNo doubt. Wasn't Cena/Brock only like 17 minutes?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Cult on this one - sure, MMA fans that look down on wrestling wouldn't all of a sudden start liking WWE, but lapsed wrestling fans (people that used to be fans, but grew bored with WWE's increasingly-homogenized product) that "moved on" to UFC/MMA probably gave his return at least a quick look.
ReplyDeleteIf the plan was always for a trilogy of matches with HHH where Brock would go over in the end, they should've just audibled after the disappointing match and lukewarm reaction at SummerSlam. At that time they were still in the same place they eventually ended up: Brock going over. This would've spared us two more tepid matches, and helped Brock retain what luster he still had.
ReplyDeleteThey could've changed the Wrestlemania card to Brock-Taker, and added Punk to the title match for the triple threat that was starring them in the face. HHH could've even played a part in the streak build, recruiting Undertaker to avenge him against Brock. I'm not saying that card would've topped 1.3 million buys, but I have no doubt it would've drawn better than the one we got, and Brock would be in a better spot now.
What do you do with HHH then? And adding Punk to Rock/Cena would have made that match and build even worse.
ReplyDeletecan we find a prosecutor to take up this case against Vincent K McMahon?
ReplyDeleteHopefully, people will come out for Punk/Brock, because that IS a match I want to see.
ReplyDeleteI legitimately can't remember. And I have a pretty good memory. So have to assume it wasn't memorable enough.
ReplyDeleteTaker is only a draw at Mania. Which is more than HHH, so touché.
ReplyDeleteI do nothing with HHH. He plays the HBK role in Brock-Taker. Maybe make him special ref.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't see how adding Punk to anything, much less Rock-Cena would make the build worse. All three guys had established issues with each other. The title didn't add as much as they hoped to Rock-Cena as the conclusion was foregone, and it felt too familiar. Punk could've been the new element the match needed to actually feel fresh.
I'd have had Punk win the title back from Rock at Elimination Chamber. Rock has his automatic rematch clause, and Cena has his Rumble title shot. Triple threat. They've used far less logical ways to set up a match.
Cena pins Rock for the title to get his win back. Punk bitches that he was never beaten for the belt, and Cena can't beat him. They have their Raw match at Extreme Rules, where Cena finally gets his big win over Punk to blow off their feud. Then Punk gets his vacation.
Punk gets a rub from Rock that Cena didn't really need. Punk adds a fresh element to the rematch. Cena still gets his win back from Rock. Rock is used to direct eyes at the product's other 9 months a year, as the focus of the program ends up on their top two full-timers. And Cena gets his big win over Punk in a great match.
I don't know about you, but I'd say that's a hell of a lot better than what we got. And I'd be willing to bet that it would've made more money too.
All that seems like too many cooks in the kitchen plus it robs us of Punk/Taker which I thought was the best match/best build up. And there was no way HHH was staying off that card so you gotta give him a high profile match somewhere.
ReplyDeleteI thought 29 should have been Cena/Punk and Brock/Rock. But I have no idea what you do with Taker and HHH. God knows I didn't want to see a third match. I know! How about leaving them off all together and push new people!
Throw HHH in Big Show's spot in the Shield 6-man.
ReplyDeleteSorry, meant to reply to Jobber. My bad.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I even agree with that, for the most part. He and Brock wrestled to crickets at Summerslam, Mania and Extreme Rules. The crowd was so silent for Hunter's entrance at ER that it was almost uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to find out years from now how detailed of a plan they had for Brock from the beginning. Was he always supposed to put Cena over? Was that changed to fuck with him/see how he'd react/maybe even get him to do something to void a contract that they immediately regretted signing? (The fact that they extended him would probably contradict this.) Was he always slated to do the trilogy with HHH? Were there any thoughts on pulling the plug to it and doing something else with him, or dumping him altogether? Are there only a certain number of guys they even trust to have in the ring with him?
ReplyDeletePunk/Cena/Rock had come together pretty perfectly, in my view. It was right there. Those three stood alone above everyone else over the previous two years of storylines. They were all intertwined, all having feuded individually against the two others. Cena/Rock was "One in a Lifetime," and Punk's epic title reign ended in somewhat murky fashion. All you needed was a fuck finish to the Punk/Cena match in February and you were there. I'm not a big proponent of triple threats main eventing any show, much less WM, but there are exceptions to every rule.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to really drive the point of Cena's redemption story home, at the risk of pissing all of the smarks off, do it triangle match, elimination style, and have Cena eliminate both Punk and Rock to conquer both of his biggest antagonists (sorry, Edge) in one night.
Punk
ReplyDeleteMark Henry
Undertaker
D-Bry
Big Show
Dolph Ziggler
John Cena
These wrestlers and these wrestlers ONLY should interact with Brock Lesnar beyond cannon fodder
LOL, refute an argument based entirely on hypothetical, alternative universe situations? You're right, I can't refute that argument. I could also argue that if Jeff Jarrett got Stone Cold's push he'd be ten times as big, and neither you nor anyone else could refute that.
ReplyDeleteNo someone tells triple h to stop trying to ego stroke. Thus he's off the card.
ReplyDeleteThere are no draws anymore. It's all about the wwe brand name.
ReplyDeleteYou think triple h is a bigger "draw" than undertaker? Or edge?
ReplyDeleteIt's been said a hundred times before, and as much as that was MOTY for me, jobbing Lesnar out on his FIRST match with Cena was the instant death knell on any future interest. Once he's been beaten by your perceived top guy, any win over him just seems minor in comparison....any loss just looks worse.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion it goes down as one of the most inane booking choices the company has ever had.
He's absolutely a bigger draw than Edge. 'Taker's more debatable since, even though HHH has drawn more money overall in a shorter career, he usually headlined RAW, often as the world champion and almost always in the world title picture.
ReplyDeleteThe time triple h was the main focus of raw 2003 was both bad ratings and bad matches. Is triple h the worst? Of course not he's firmly in the middle of the pack where he belongs. Triple h is good can be great, he just doesnt have it anymore. I'd also put million dollar man ahead of triple h as far as being a heel goes.
ReplyDeleteMan I feel old we have triple h apologists now.
Who's talking about talent here? I'm talking about drawing power. And more specifically, I'm comparing HHH's drawing power to that of guys like Bret, Shawn, Angle, 'Taker, Edge, Orton, not guys like The Rock or Stone Cold or Hogan or Cena or Batista.
ReplyDeleteEspecially with the story they tried to ret-con about Cena having the worst 2012 ever.
ReplyDeleteHow about Ryback/Taker and HHH/Henry?
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say he was "relegated" to Smackdown. For the early years of the brand extension, Smackdown quite consistently closed each PPV. It wasn't always the "B" brand. Or at least, not quite explicitly so.
ReplyDeleteThere was a draw at Night of Champions, the double pin with Punk and Cena.
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