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When did the hate end?



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I've been reading your older rants, and I see you had a hatred for the Undertaker. I get how it started, when he came back in 2000 he was awful in every aspect, but in the later parts of 2002 he got better and you still hated him from then until about 2007, when you weren't watching much of the product. When did you stop hating Undertaker and why?

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Probably the Batista match where he had nearly the best match of the show and the promotion didn't have to be booked around protecting him outside of the streak.

Comments

  1. I hated the American Badass so much. How the fuck are you going to trade in the Undertaker gimmick? Imagine if he got injured (touch wood) and was forced to retire having wrestled his last match as 'American Badass'.


    Undertaker is one of those wrestlers who I think is only as good as his opponent, and boy he's had some stinkers in his time but he meshes well with certain peeps

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  2. I've been watching a lot of stuff from the early 2000s and his lack of selling is embarrassing. Why he got protected so much when he was clearly behind Austin and the Rock is beyond me.

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  3. One thing that really bugged me about Scott's then hatred for Taker was in I think April 2001 when Taker and Kane came out to feud with HHH and Austin and he made a "shake their walkers" comment. Both guys were in their mid-30s at the time. Not exactly elderly. Not saying he didn't have a right to be upset, just that they weren't THAT old or anything.

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  4. Totally disagree. I thought the ABA character was a nice, fresh update to what was becoming a stale and silly character (especially since the last time we saw him before the change, where he was worshiping Satan and drinking Dennis Knight's blood). It was a gutsy move that could have backfired, no doubt, but he got over like crazy with it. The return at Backlash 2000 is one of my favorite moments in WWF/E EVER. What really helped it I think was the fact that he was essentially just playing himself.

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  5. I think he came back at JD 2000, not Backlash.
    He obviously liked playing the character. Fans were clamoring for him to return as the Dead Man character back in late 2002 but was still the ABA up to late 2003.

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  6. A bit off topic, but this reminds me: where did the whole goofy "Booger Red" nickname come from?

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  7. Jim Ross. For all the love we give him, ol' JR said some stupid shit sometimes.

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  8. My mistake. JD2000 is correct.

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  9. Yeah that return was CRAZY but it was massively disappointing (for me anyway) to then see him riding out on his Harley to Limp Bizkit Rollin of all things!

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  10. Any idea what the hell that was supposed to mean?

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  11. Taker was TV old though. Years of being on television means that everybody was sick of him.

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  12. I remember the newz that he refused to grow his hair out when he came back in 2003, so he couldn't play the deadman character. The way he was booked for most of that year, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. He didn't do anything important until they were getting ready to write him out.

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  13. The deadman character had really run its course. I guess people had a problem with him being Stone Cold Jr. until he turned heel, but it was still better than that god awful ministry stuff.

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  14. Except the audience. He was much more universally over than the guy they have on top now, even with his god awful denim shirt and disco tights.

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  15. He came out to American Bad Ass. He changed to Rollin' at the end of the year.

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  16. Cena has the same issue. I shudder to think of the possibilty he will still be a major player for the next 15 years.

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  17. Just chiming in to say that his entrance at 'mania with the tortured souls reaching out for him was awesome.

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  18. I think it had to do with Taker being a red head and I guess "Booger Red" is a southern saying? That's all I got.

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  19. You mean Cena? To say he's not universally over is flat out wrong. Now, Taker never had any fan backlash against him like Cena I'll grant you.

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  20. Universally in the way he's SUPPOSED to be over.

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  21. From JR himself...

    "Booger Red was the nickname of another red headed, bad ass from Texas, former UT linebacker and hall of famer Tommy Nobis. If you look up 'Booger' in the dictionary, it is a southern expression meaning a frightening apparition of which Undertaker certainly is. Plus, he is naturally red headed. I thought the name worked but others didn't."

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  22. He evolved into that character though. Most people seem to forget that in 1998 and 1999, when he wasn't in his wrestling gear, he was dressed EXACTLY like the way he was in 2000. He even was talking like the American Badass in late 1999 during his tag team with the Big Show.

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  23. Yeah, in the worst promo of all time he was rambling about Paul Bearer getting some bikes from the Hells Angels.

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  24. Respect, brotha.

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  25. Taker was allowed to turn heel once in a while to keep things fresh.

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  26. It blew my mind when Jericho said that wasn't intentionally awful, in order to set up his promo.

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  27. That match with Kurt Angle in 2006 was really the point where I went "holy shit, Undertaker's a good wrestler now."

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  28. Sick of Cena now. Big time.

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  29. Has anyone had a bigger swing from awful to pretty good than Taker? Even in the Mean Mark days I think its safe to say his best skill was being big.



    Rock was pretty bad when he started, but not as bad as Taker and honestly Taker's best matches are better than Rock's.

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  30. And so late in his career, no less!

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  31. He's on his way, he's making it.

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  32. Worst main-event mic worker with english as their first language.

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  33. He got a reaction. But hell, so does Ric Flair, does that mean the crowd wants to watch him wrestle?

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  34. That promo has grown on me. It's so absurd that it's hilarious.

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  35. ... but that's when guys get REALLY good. Take Jericho for example... he's currently better than he's ever been, and much more consistent.

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  36. It seemed like bringing back the Deadman-Taker revitalized his career.

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  37. Calling someone a booger and highlighting their ginger hair.. . hmmm I wonder why that didn't get over!!? It sounds like a nickname a bully would give to one of its victims.

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  38. But Jericho has always been a good-great worker. I can't think of anyone else who reinvented the workrate part of his career to the level of Taker at that late an age.

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  39. Taker was doing alright in 05, minus the Hassan debacle, and then after the Angle match in 06 something lit a fire under his ass

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  40. Yup, and it's been oddly unmentioned / underrated

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  41. You mean unintentionally?

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  42. Also, Scott kinda shit on what was a really good Taker/HHH match at WMX7, and this was when he (and the rest of the world) loved HHH.

    Though as I recall, he recently amended it to ****.

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  43. YankeesHoganTripleHFanJuly 28, 2013 at 7:35 PM

    I think I can speak for all of us when I say that the blog is proud of Scott for getting over his hatred of people in a staged sport, (see also Michaels, Shawn) Good for you Scott!!! Now...if you will excuse me I hate to go on Facebook and fire off my anti A-Rod Blast of the day.

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  44. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryJuly 28, 2013 at 7:36 PM

    That was pretty fucking rad.

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  45. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryJuly 28, 2013 at 7:36 PM

    MARK HENRY

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  46. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryJuly 28, 2013 at 7:39 PM

    He's definitely a much better wrestler now, the strike-heavy style suits him much better. As they say in sports, he's "staying within himself", meaning doing the things he does best and staying away from what he cannot, either technically or physically.

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  47. Ironic how the guys named "Mark" end up figuring things out best.

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  48. They want 35 year old Ric Flair to wrestle.

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  49. Without The American Badass, he would have never evolved past being a no-selling zombie mortician.

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  50. What mania are you talking about?

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  51. *THREADJACK* Is anyone else watching this Total Divas debacle?

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  52. Revolutionary post

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  53. I don't think it's on any of the Canadian channels.


    I hope it isn't.

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  54. Is it as amazing as I'm imagining? So bad it's good? or just boring?

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  55. YEAH - IT GOT ME SO HOT THAT ME AND THE MRS HAD TO GO DROP SOME SQUIRRELS OFF THE CLIFF IN THE BACK YARD, THEN I TOOK THE REMAINS, RUBBED THEM ALL OVER M'LADY AND WENT TO TOWN... I'VE GOT THE REAL SQUIRREL GIRL SITTING ON MY LAP, COVERED IN SQUIRREL INARDS AND SHE JUST TOLD ME SHE'S PRETTY SURE THE SQUIRREL EYE BALL I STUCK INSIDE OF HER ISN'T COMING OUT ANY TIME SOON... SHE'S WILLING TO TAKE PICTURES IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED.

    down the capslockman!

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  56. The Love-Matic Grampa!July 28, 2013 at 8:32 PM

    I thought Taker was pretty good during that mid 90's run against the likes of HBK and Bret, especially since they were severely downplaying the supposed "supernatural" aspects of the character (probably a reaction to the "Undertaker vs. Underfaker" goofiness). Then he kept getting hurt and relied more and more on gimmicks, costume changes and assorted bells and whistles to cover his deficiencies, along with taking more and more of every match for himself so that he could still look dominant against younger, healthier talent.


    The Batista match was good, but my turnaround point was the Edge match, because he made a guy who (at the time) was still somewhat marginal as a main eventer and made him look like a world-beater even in defeat.

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  57. Once he really fell in love with MMA and started trying MMA-style wrestling it led to him actually...trying.



    It always made me wonder if he could have done it all along and was just lazy or if he really started taking pride in his work later on in his career.

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  58. Rocky was just raw, which is a different deal.

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  59. I find it quite amusing. Nikki Bella and this new Eva Marie come off as awful people (Nikki especially).

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  60. Trudeaumania?

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  61. And they want 45 year old Taker...

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  62. No Way Out 2006 against Angle, generally where people saw him as a solid worker again

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  63. Taker wasn't really ever awful. He spent the first four or so years of his WWF career saddled with guys like Yokozuna and Mabel. His biggest feuds were with his doppleganger and Harvey fucking Wipplemen. From '95 through '98 he was a legitimately good worker when put into the ring with guys who could go. Even his match with Diesel was excellent, and Diesel was another guy like Taker in that he could only work up to the level of his opponent. I think it was mostly injuries and lack of motivation that led to his stagnation beginning around 2000.


    I also think people neglect that his characters were never the type that would be booked into situations where they'd have great matches. He used the Hogan formula of fending off monsters early on, then settled into a nice groove until the Ministry bullshit necessitated endless run-ins, and finally his Biker phase was mostly built around junk brawling to cover up the years of damage the guy had done to his knees.

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  64. I always thought it was his ~****1/2 match with Angle at No Way Out '06.



    But yeah, he was really good in his heel run too.

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  65. As Bret explained in his book, Taker was always a good wrestler, but he played his character at all times. It wouldn't have made much sense for his zombie character to sell leg attacks, for instance. But when he freed himself from that in 96, his work got a lot better until the injuries.

    Not sure what went wrong with the American Badass phase pre-heel turn, but it certainly didn't look like he was terribly invested in his work in that era.

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  66. Agreed completely.

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  67. I've lived in the deep south all my life and have never heard the term "booger" used for anything except the things that come out of your nose.

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  68. JR said no one has faced as many terrible opponents as Taker. That's probably true, but Hogan also had quite a few and he developed the "Hogan formula" where he could tell a good story in a match with someone who can't do much. Taker never did that, and it hurt his performances.

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  69. I took it to be zombies, but agreed, it was cool.

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  70. During that "who would you trade" thread I mentioned that I would've sent Taker to WCW in 99 to let him do the Biker gimmick in a different setting and give them some more star power, and then when he came back to WWE whenever as the Deadman, the nostalgia pop would've been through the roof. But hindsight 20 20 and all.

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  71. Undertaker came back at the WRONG time in 2000...there were so many great workers having fresh feuds then you just stick him in the middle of it.

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  72. I think his style was just sticking out like a sore thumb because you had a combination of: Rock-HHH at the top of their game, the ascent of Angle/Jericho/Benoit, the Radicalz, great tag team wrestling, etc.

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  73. It showed just how much Taker's appeal lay in the deadman character. In 2000, you bring him out in denim on a motorcycle and he's just a guy booked strongly over MUCH more talented workers. It just didn't work. Taker's longevity lies in the unprecedented strength of booking WWE has always given his character.

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  74. To each his own, but I reacted with nothing more than a groan. Here Rock and HHH are having this modern day classic and it's interrupted by bikerTaker.

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  75. Absolutely. In a year when Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Edge/Christian, Hardyz, et al were destroying it in the ring, we were supposed to buy Undertaker's no-selling act.

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  76. Shit, I was a huge fan of his and I'm beyond sick of him. Have been for a good 5 years now.

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  77. That match is pretty remarkable. Great work in what could have easily been a forgettable title match.

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  78. Best Undertaker WM entrances....

    9. WM8, just because it was Undertaker's first major entrance as a face and he got a HUGE pop from the big stadium crowd
    8. WM14, the first (?) druid entrance, complete with that awesome "O Fortuna" song rather than their usual dreary druid chanting
    7. WM23, the 'Twilight Zone' entrance, minus a couple of cool points since
    the camera wasn't in the right position at first and it took a few
    seconds to get the proper framing of Taker in the doorway
    6. WM20, return of Paul Bearer and the 'dead man' gimmick
    5. WM9, with the funeral chariot and the vulture
    4. WM27, The long, slow walk with the Johnny Cash entrance music
    3. WM24, great combination of that amazing entrance set and the dark night sky
    2. WM21, Undertaker 'floats' to the ring
    1. WM29, the souls reaching up from hell

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  79. The thing is, the Hogan formula required Hogan to sell a bunch and make a superhuman comeback. Undertaker could take punishment but not really 'sell' since his whole schtick was that he was virtually impervious to pain. It's hard to create a ton of babyface sympathy given those parameters.

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  80. See, here's the thing, I don't see why Undertaker COULDN'T have sold like that back in his zombie days and just worked it into his gimmick. It's like in a horror movie when a zombie gets his leg blown off or something but he's still coming at you, slower but no less determined. If someone like Bret Hart was just drilling UT's leg for 10 minutes, he could've sold it like he simply had a dead limb and the rest of him was still vicious.

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  81. When WM 27 came to Atlanta, I hadn't followed WWE in almost 10 years. I bought a ticket off StubHub at the last second. 75% of the reason I went was to experience Taker's entrance at a Wrestlemania. The other 25% was a combo of the Rock and just the fact that 16 year old me would have kicked my ass for not going to a WM that was 20 minutes away.

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  82. I'm hoping once Cena's allowed to turn heel, he'll lead a cult of jorts enthusiasts for a couple months.

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  83. Some of the comments here pretty much sum it up- he was awful when he was a slow, plodding worker who never sold for anyone, and was constantly protected against every other wrestler. When he cut down the schedule and just did one or two big feuds a year, he was a lot better off. His sense of timing was always great, even in the dark days of his run, but these fewer, longer matches allowed for him to best-utilize his offense. It helped that he was no longer going over some of the best workers in the world on a frequent basis.

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  84. Taker DID kind of sell in the old days- it was just that he'd eventually just sit up and ignore it all. It fit the character and was cool when I was a kid, though it got less interesting as time went on, since he was basically unstoppable.

    When he dropped the zombie stuff and was STILL basically just not selling anything, it was actively hurting everyone booked against him. Remember how bad it got during the InVasion?

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  85. Bingo. The Hogan formula is so bulletproof too, see HHH and Cena getting something watchable out of Khali.

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  86. Post of the year.

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  87. He shat all over that match.

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  88. I'm all about the faces that are getting booed being put into a super heel stable - Cena, Orton, Sheamus, Miz, w/ Triple H (also getting very lukewarm reactions) as it's leader.

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  89. He wasn't out there by himself interfering. There were a few hundred McMahon/Helmsley/DX Run ins in that match that he joined.

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  90. AverageJoeEverymanJuly 29, 2013 at 12:13 PM

    Also on a somewhat related note Kane had a couple great ones:
    at WMXX the video backround of NY turned into a raging inferno and WMXXI (I think) when he was in the MITB match and the ladders near the entrance caught fire

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  91. Jericho wasn't a good worker until he came to the WWF. As well-loved as his WCW stint was, he was a pretty mediocre worker back then.

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  92. Um, since when is HHH being booed? He got the "you tapped out" chant at SummerSlam last year, but apart from that I can't think of anything. Oh, and he was on the "boo" side of the "Yay! Boo!" thing against 'Taker in the cell last year, but the crowd wasn't really booing him in that match either.

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