Scott, working a 16 hour ER shift and have so far gotten punched in the stomach by a girl on bath salts (cheap street methamphetamines) and had to examine a person who just shot themselves, ah the joys of being an ER doc. Mentally checked out so decided to hang with my buddy, the BoD.
Just read the recent post about a Cena heel turn and it got me thinking about major wrestling events, if smart fans saw them coming, and what was leaked prior to the event. Could you give some info on what the smarts were saying before the following events...
- Stone Colds WM X-7 turn
- Hogans WM 9 return
- Vince as higher power
- UT beating HBK into retirement
- Waltman returning to join DX
- Rocks Survivor Series 98 turn
- Rocks WM 27 return
Hang on, the bath salts story sounds way more interesting than this crap. I'm hardly ever punched by meth addicts at work.
Anyway, on with the list:
- Austin's turn was pretty well known from Royal Rumble 2001, and as longtime readers can tell you, I was openly predicting it at the time.
- Hogan's return: Wasn't quite online at that time so I couldn't say.
- Everyone knew Vince was going to be the Higher Power, but we just didn't want to admit it.
- HBK's retirement was pretty much known months in advance. Not a secret at all.
- X-Pac's return was a HUGE shock, although it was known that he had been fired from WCW, but people assumed that the previous split was so acrimonious that it was unlikely Vince would work with him again. Guess we were wrong.
- Everyone knew it was going to happen. Rock never had a real babyface turn in the first place, so it was just a matter of time.
- Wasn't watching the product at the time of Rock's return.
you mean being an ER doc is NOTHING George Clooney made it out to be? I'm shocked! SHOCKED! (Now where are my winnings????????)
ReplyDeleteBischoff got on a live Nitro and announced Vince was going to be the Higher Power before it happened on the live Raw (before Raw was even on the air, in fact.)
ReplyDeleteBy 2001, Austin had gotten stale, but so had Undertaker, Kane and Rock.
ReplyDeleteI was surprised by the Rock's turn at Survivor Series 98. It made perfect sense but I was still surprised it happened.
ReplyDeleteBut I thought it was pretty well-known X-PAC was coming back the night after Wresrlemania once it became known he'd been fired.
Thanks for posting Scott. My fandom wavers at times and although was watching during some of these events, I didn't really keep up with the smart news.
ReplyDeleteSean waltman did an interview with Wade Keller days after being fired and told the world he was in negotiations with Titian and was about to agree on a deal--this was before wrestlemania 14. Based on that I actually expected a run in by him at the event but that raw debut was awesome.
ReplyDeleteYea, I was young at the time and not hip to all the workings of how WWF operated but was SHOCKED by the turn.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, it made great sense and the booking within that Survivor Series was absolutely perfect in regards to telling the story.
I *was* hip to the inner-workings and Rock's heel turn still surprised me. However I was also adjusting to a real job, and real-life, so maybe if I'd been online that weekend I would have read something the clued me into the surprise.
ReplyDeleteMeltzer leaked the WM 17 finish the day of WM (or the night before) and people were pissed that Austin was turning heel. IIRC lots of people online were hoping the reports were wrong. Anyone that was predicting it, was "predicting" it the same way people are now saying John Cena will turn heel....someday. So when that someday comes they can all scream "I CALLED IT!"
ReplyDelete-I remember reading raw rants about austin turning heel at mania. The execution was great but the follow up sucked. I think it would have worked out a lot better if hhh turned on face but that quad tear would have ended the feud.
ReplyDelete-I imagine that smart fans repsonded to Hogan the same way some fans repsonded to the Rock this year (part timer shouldn't have the title, he's holding back younger stars, etc)
-I thought to myself "everyone knew it was Vince, but didn't want to admit it" before scrolling down to Scott's answer. Those of us in denial were thinking it was Jake the Snake.
-HBK stuff was well known.
-Wasn't keeping up wth wrestling for a good 5 months before Mania (missed the screwjob and sting/hogan bs at starcade) due to a death in the family. Didn't even know X-pac was fired
-The most I rememeber from that show was the speculation around the mystery guy. Rock's "heel turn" took me by surprise since he was the #2 face at that point, but Austin/Rock was going to be the WM main event so somebody had to go heel.
-Rock was already rumored to be a guest host but his unannounced return shocked everyone. Wasn't Justin Beiber rumored to be showing up instead of Rock that night?
A couple from my memory.
ReplyDeleteSCSA turn was thought to be happening well in advance.
Rock turning at SS was a total shock and done incredibly well. The toss of the club from Bossman to Shamrock with Rock intercepting it was incredibly well "acted"
I'm surprised at Scott's answer for the X Pac return as I knew it was coming according to the sites of the day (Scoops, Micasa, 1wrestling)
Rocks return for WM27 was a huge fucking surprise and left my mind melted after his music hit.
Vince as the HP was what we all were dreading but expecting.
Everybody knew HBK was retiring.
Well put.
ReplyDeleteI call bullshit on people knowing what was up with Survivor Series 98. That is the best swerve ever. Mostly because of Rock's organic babyface turn a few weeks earlier. Not only did you use Montreal against everyone, they also used Austin's rise to fool everyone.
ReplyDeleteI remember hoping the higher power was anyone but Vince and then being pissed off when it was revealed that it was nobody but.
ReplyDeleteMeant to ask about Bischoff making his Raw debut...guessing it was well known but not sure.
ReplyDeleteNo one knew about McMahon being to Higher Power and no one at the time really considered Michaels impending retirement. Meltzer even mentioned how very few people were taking it seriously in the pre-WM26 Observer.
ReplyDelete"With so much going on, it’s almost lost in the shuffle that Shawn Michaels may be retiring in a week.
ReplyDeletePart of it is two things. First, we’ve been conditioned not to believe any wrestling stipulations. Second, unless you are Jack Brisco, nobody ever retires from pro wrestling, and every big star announces and teases it constantly and it’s never real. Michaels himself has made noises about retiring for a couple of years, to the point they’ve actually scripted jokes about it on Raw. After he took time off in 2008, he made noise like he had decided not to come back. Like previous times he’d taken off, one major injury, the phone call came, and he was back. He also in a radio interview that year said he had told the company his retirement date (which at the time was this year’s WrestleMania). At other teams he’s brought up the idea of wrestling well into his 50s, but maybe only a match of two a year." - 3/22/10 Wrestling Observer
Good informative post. This is gonna sound really stupid at this point but I thought they'd have HBK win at 26 then build to a rubber match retirement vs retirement match.
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't say "no one knew about McMahon being the Higher Power." At the time, everyone was suggesting it would be Jake Roberts. McMahon was under the hood the week prior to the reveal episode, but it was explained at the time as he was there so Austin could draw from their history to create the reaction he had. Of course, a week later it ended up being McMahon. But Jake Roberts was really who everyone was thinking it would be.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't. But WWE gave it away themselves.
ReplyDeleteYeah, no one predicted the Rock guest hosting WM27.
ReplyDeleteAre "bath salts" really bath salts? And isn't that what that dude in Florida who was eating faces was on?
ReplyDeleteI'm on your side. I think it's one of those things we should have seen coming, but didnt.
ReplyDeleteThere was a rumor about Bieber but I can't believe anyone actually took it seriously.
ReplyDeleteAfter a nice relaxing soak in the tub, I indulge myself with a serving of homeless person face.
ReplyDeleteThey look just like bath salts, white small crystals. They're cathinogens, which is kinda a fake stimulant. They don't have the typical nitro group associated with stimulants (pretty sure this is the difference) so are usually mixed with caffeine and cheap stuff to give ppl the stimulant type high.
ReplyDeleteYea, it was the face eating dudes drug.
Upvoting out of agreement and for the sweet Arcia avatar.
ReplyDeleteI thought he'd win then retire anyway.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I'm a real mark.
"I think it would have worked out a lot better if hhh turned on face but that quad tear would have ended the feud."
ReplyDeleteI don't know a great deal about quadriceps or sports injuries in general. Was Triple H's a long time coming, or would he have been better off if he didn't take that stumble at that particular moment of the match?
If Trips turned face after WM17 (which certainly was teased), that great, infamous tag match wouldn't have happened.
Rock's WM27 return was pretty unspoiled; Justin Bieber was expected to the long-rumored "guest host", but it seemed more like a well-placed smoke screen to not give it away that it was Rocky.
ReplyDeleteI'll second that nobody was really buying into the "retirement" stip.
ReplyDeleteI mean, sure, everyone expected Taker to win, but we all figured Shawn would be back by "Summerslam". I really didn't buy it until the match was over, and they went off the air on such a somber note.
I'd say that noone "knew", but it was heavily speculated.
ReplyDeleteProbably a little of both - that one particular bad step took him out, but he definitely seemed to be bursting at the seams (in terms of being overly muscled). It was probably bound to happen eventually.
ReplyDeleteThat whole PPV was a thing of beauty - maybe not in terms of match-qualty, but certainly in terms of storytelling.
ReplyDeleteI remember watching WMX7 hoping the Austin heel turn didn't happen and being pissed off it did, so I must have known it was likely going into it.
ReplyDeleteI was 11 in 1993, no idea about the Hogan thing.
I recall there being speculation of Jake Roberts and others but it was widely assumed Vince would be the Higher Power. I don't know if it was reported or rumored as much as it was assumed because whatever makes the least sense became the predictable result by that point.
I don't know when X-Pac's return would've been a surprise but I seem to recall it being a given he'd return when he was released - it was known he'd signed and that if he didn't appear at WM14 he'd be on Raw the next night.
I don't remember knowing Rock was going to be the Corporate Champion. In retrospect it seems so obvious but they'd actually floated some stories out there about Austin being pissed off because Rock was about to get a huge babyface push.
I just assumed the guest host would be Justin Beiber or some obnoxious celebrity who's dick they could attach their lips to. It didn't cross my mind it could be The Rock. I don't remember it being rumored as much as thrown out as a hypothetical nobody believed would happen.
God, that "Backlash, 2001" main-event basically ended the Attitude Era. After a year and a half of seeing Rock, Trips, Taz, Benoit, Angle, Jericho, Eddie, the Hardys, E&C, etc. all tearing the ring up on a nightly basis, Taker and Kane at their absolute worst was NOT what fans were looking for in the main event.
ReplyDeleteWell he ended up blowing the other one out to so I'm going to say it was bound to happen sooner or later. Actually he should be due for one soon.
ReplyDeleteThey're whores for celebrity, I'd believe they'd do it if they could get him.
ReplyDeleteThey saved him for live tv for the ratings, from what I recall from the time. It was rumored he'd appear at Wrestlemania because it was HHH/Owen with Chyna handcuffed to Slaughter so it seemed set up for someone other than Chyna to help HHH win - but they got around the stipulation by making it a non-factor all together.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall it being speculated at all that Rock was going to turn heel. I remember most of the online reports were talking about the internal debate of Austin vs Rock as the company's long term top face.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. To turn Austin heel he needs a great face to work with right out the shoot - and Bikertaker wasn't it. Bikertaker really wasn't as popular and cool as his hands in his jean pockets while wearing sunglasses pose suggested he thought he was.
ReplyDeleteWWE really needs a wrestler who wrestles on bath salts.
ReplyDeleteGet on that Vince
For sure. It was probably Russo's most successful "the wrestling is secondary to the story" show because it all actually added up when it was over.
ReplyDeleteHogan's turn in 1996 was pretty shocking. It had been rumoured but in kind of a pie-in-the-sky, "hey, wouldn't it be stunning if..." kind of way. Most pundits seemed to presume that the third man would be Bret Hart (if he didn't re-sign with the WWF) or Sting as the in-house option, which would've been more shocking since he was Mr. WCW franchise guy. Seeing the Hulkster actually hit the ring and legdrop the Macho Man was mindblowing both because of the turn and because WCW and Hogan himself actually had the balls to try it.
ReplyDeleteHe's due for a new one every 3000 wins.
ReplyDeleteI would bet my money on this.
ReplyDeleteStill: determinism's a bitch.
It was fucking great, who is anybody kidding with this one?
ReplyDeleteNo love for the legendary Jamey Carroll?
ReplyDeleterock never turned face in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI think we're confusing knowing and "knowing" here. I was talking about how Shawn's retirement was the logical end to the storyline and how it was clearly being built up months in advance. Obviously no one thought that they'd book his ACTUAL retirement in a relatively unpromoted manner like that, or that he'd seriously retires for realz.
ReplyDeleteAnd RSPW was all over McMahon as Higher Power. Meltzer didn't always have his thumb on the pulse of those things.
Neither did Austin.
ReplyDeleteAustin fought a heel Canadian Hart Foundation faction.
ReplyDeleteAustin fought a heel Nation faction
Austin fought a heel DX
Austin fought a corporate stooge Mick Foley.
Austin fought a heel Kane
Finally at Summerslam 98 he fought a face Undertaker.
From the summer of 97 to the fall of 98, all he did was fight heels. By that point it was accepted.
Rock was never programmed with anyone after losing the IC belt to HHH to establish his face status. The fans were cheering for him. (including me) but he never was fighting heels except Mizark and D'Lo. all he fought were jobber faces. IIRC he did have a tag match against Taker on RAW.
He did the three way cage match at Breakdown IIRC but he was still a heel getting face reactions. He cheated his way to victory. and then the deadly game happened.
Im not saying that I called it. I was fooled. I thought Foley was gonna waltz through it being the stooge, but once it unfolds, Rock never acknowledged the fans and never turned face. they (me included) were just cheering the coolest guy in the room.
Rock was feuding with Taker, Kane, Vince, and Shamrock leading up to Survivor Series. They were all heels.
ReplyDeleteHe was over as hell, but once they got stuck into Power Trip vs. Canadian Violence, it was fucking Cream.
ReplyDeleteAnd then both Benoit and Triple H got sidelined with massive injuries and the Invasion ensued. Oof!
Wasn't Hart still a face for the first part of the feud with Austin? It wasn't until the "double switch" that they started booking Bret as a more over heel and even then, Austin still had the whole DTA thing going. Austin of course got booked against heels, but he never changed. People just started cheering him.
ReplyDelete...no they weren't.
ReplyDeletefeud in my book means having a ppv match in the midst of interacting on free tv
having one-off matches on RAW isnt a feud
rock and taker never feuded til 99. taker didnt go heel until the ministry stuff in late 98.
Shamrock didn't even turn heel until after the corporation was formed. and the rock/shamrock feud was blown off at WM14
I don't even recall a Rock/Kane feud or singles match.
Yes he was, thats i specifically said the summer part with the faction, and not the actual double switch.
ReplyDeleteBut even still after you are programmed for a year straight against heels... come on... what is there to discuss, Austin is a face.
This isnt a 2 month tweener thing like Rocky. He on ppv for a year straight fought nothing but heels.
Aint no way there is gonna be a heel-heel run programmed that long.
Yes they were. I just watched the entire buildup to SS 98 a few months back on Classics. They were interacting every week on Raw and in the main events, especially after Austin got "fired". And if you want PPV matches, Shamrock-Mankind-Rock had a triple threat match, and Rock fought those two plus Taker at Survivor Series.
ReplyDeleteThat is what was amazing about it. It paid off all those weeks of tv, only not the you thought or wanted.
...in a tournament...
ReplyDeleteThat's a feud?
How long was that match? 3 minutes? 5?
Taker was a heel? I don't think so. He (and Kane) begrudgingly was working with Vince to get rid of Austin at Breakdown and then had the match with Kane at Judgement Day.
But didnt Kane and Taker break Vinces ankle? Vince who was the number one heel at the time? How is Taker a heel and Vince a heel then?
And in the 3 way cage, who was working heel? Wasn't it Rocky but getting cheered? Wasn't Shamrock working face, but getting booed out the building cuz he sucks?
Shamrock was definitely a heel by that point, he was always getting DQ'd and would brain Foley every week with a chair.
ReplyDeleteRock was getting cheered because he dumped the Nation after SummerSlam, that was his fakeout face turn.
Taker turned heel way back when he aligned with Kane.
And fuck Russo for making this so difficult to explain.
Right. And watching that HHH Rock match is so weird from SS based on who was the heel and face
ReplyDeleteReally? By that point WCW didn't matter
ReplyDeleteNo. Later on it was found that that dude wasn't actually on bath salts, that's just what he told the cops. He was fucked up on perfectly legal, doctor-prescribed painkillers and had a long history of mental illness (and was minorly famous for being the first person to get Tased by a Florida cop). But the media ran with the bath salt thing and never corrected themselves, and of course the drug companies get to walk away scot free.
ReplyDeleteMan you're lucky. Scott never asks me to share my "getting spit on by mentally retarded people" work stories.
ReplyDeleteI remember the WWE trolling the fans with who was going to be the greater power. Once they started mentioning rumored names on tv I knew it was going to be Vince.
ReplyDeleteIf you go back and read Herb Kunzes tidbits from the time there was a lot of scuttlebutt that hogan was leaving wm9 with the belt and that he was going to somehow wrestle or challenge for the belt even though he had a mid card match booked.
ReplyDeleteIt was May 99, so Nitro was still doing respectable ratings. It wasn't until Russo came in that WCW really passed the point of no return.
ReplyDeleteThe first Observers that would have been talking about the "third man" are being released on the F4W website, and Metlzer speculates Luger would have been the 3rd man (makes sense since he'd just come back from WWF) and that Hogan would come back in August to face Scott Hall. It will be interesteing to keep reading these to see how the speculation changes.
ReplyDeleteHmmm. To be fair, there was a promo duel between Rock and McMahon before SS where Vince said that Rocky wasn't the People's Champion, he was the People's Ass, and begged him to join the Corporation. Rocky responded that he'd rather be the People's Ass than kiss McMahon's.
ReplyDeleteThey were at an all-time low before he joined, if memory serves.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the Monday Night Raws article on Wikipedia then. Nitro was still doing good ratings (in the 3s) in May of 99. That would be just fine if Raw on the other channel wasn't doing 6.0s. And in the 3s isn't an all time low... the first few months of the War both shows were in the 2.0 range.
ReplyDeleteHe's a good guy at sports too.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm wrong... but wasn't he advertised as the special guest host all along? I could have sworn he was on RAW before this, and I don't remember their being anyone surprised at the time...
ReplyDeleteI was a prepubescent fan at the time. Remember really wanting it to be HBK but knew itd be Vince. When you're not fooling 12 year olds, you know it's a bad swerve.
ReplyDeleteI swear I remember it being Rock all along and being promoted as such... I guess these things just blend together for me after all these years.
ReplyDeleteHennan knew it was him the minute he came through the curtain!
ReplyDeleteWhen The Rock returned on that raw I basically started marking out like a 5 year old. I figured the guest host was gonna be someone big, and The Rock return had previous foreshadowing when Dwayne stopped trying to distance himself from wrestling and started embracing it again, and was openly talking about how much he missed the wrestling business with fans on Facebook and such, but I still didn't see it coming.
ReplyDeleteTaker really didn't become a heel until he turned on Kane and re-aligned with Paul Bearer. At Summerslam he told Kane to stay out of the match and showed Austin respect after he lost, too.
ReplyDeleteI have a similar recollection. My buddy was going to raw that night in Anaheim and I remember sending him a text message before the show saying that he was probably going to see The Rock that night. It must have been at least rumored.
ReplyDeleteI thought it might be Jake until they said his name. Then I hoped they would have gone with Foley or Ultimate Warrior. I thought the best choice was Ted Turner though it had no chance in hell of happening
ReplyDeleteTurner woulda been AWESOME. I think the Internet and smart fans heads would have simultaneously exploded.
ReplyDeleteNo, I wasn't contesting that. I'm aware Nitro was still drawing well throughout the first three quarters of 1999.
ReplyDeleteWhat I meant was that by October, ratings had fallen drastically, to the mid 2.0s.
I think in regards to the announcement of him being the host. They made a big deal about how there would be a WM-guest host and most people groaned with the RAW Guest Hosts still fresh in their minds.
ReplyDelete