Hello: Three parts
1. Do you think people are being overly pessimistic as to how the Bryan push will go? He pinned Cena clean in the middle of the ring in the main event for Summerslam. Surely that's enough to persuade anyone that he is being pushed to the moon?
2. Do you think this in part shows that their 50/50 booking, Wins/losses approach has it's merits? Bryan had the talent and charisma to get over despite losing loads. Same ( to a lesser extent) as Ziggler. Maybe that approach has merits, in that only the cream will rise to the top?
3. Is the underdog Bryan having great matches on top of the card not enough to persuade you to watch/review Raw more often?
1. I don't know who these people are, but I think we've established now that Bryan is a top guy for good.
2. No.
3. No. I'll be doing the 90 minute show on Hulu tonight, though.
#2 has probably ruined zigglers career. Bryan did tons of jobs with the briefcase but he got an actual run with the WHC and was pushed hard post 18 seconds with a great match against sheamus, the punk program and the Kane angle. Ziggler hasn't done shit but lose and get a divas angle.
ReplyDeleteTBF, ziggler is just putrid as a face. Why am I supposed to cheer this guy?
ReplyDelete"Do you think this in part shows that their 50/50 booking, Wins/losses approach has it's merits? Bryan had the talent and charisma to get over despite losing loads. Same ( to a lesser extent) as Ziggler. Maybe that approach has merits, in that only the cream will rise to the top?"
ReplyDelete"No."
Not that I'm looking to debate this point but what's your rationale behind the answer? I am genuinely curious.
"Please keep doing RAWs, even though you were really clear that you're not going to"
ReplyDeleteIt makes everyone look like a loser and creates a roster with no hierarchy
ReplyDeleteCorrection.
ReplyDeleteIt puts Cena (who rarely loses against the rest of the roster and only against special attractions) above everyone.
I still think Bryan isn't a top guy until he cuts that goofy fucking beard.
Yeah I thought we were long past worrying about Daniel Bryan's push, especially after Summerslam
ReplyDeleteFunny how now that Cena's gone 50/50 booking was immediately abolished - Rhodes beat Sandow twice in a row
ReplyDeleteSmall sample size.
ReplyDeleteSagging ratings have probably contributed to the brass finally seeing the light as to freshening things up. They were all like "check out the reactions of this Daniel Bryan guy". They didn't have to build him up much further, because the mechanics were already in place...excellent worker, solid crowd support. Now, of course, with Cena out for a time, if ratings continue to sag, they will attribute it as not so much as Daniel Bryan at the top, but more as lack of Cena on TV, further justifying slotting Cena right back in central focus mode. DB is a good start, but more needs to be done. A possible strong heel stable is but one part.
ReplyDeleteI'm coming in on the side of cutting off the beard as well.
ReplyDeleteFor #2, I'd argue that these guys got over in spite of the 50/50 booking.
ReplyDeleteI think Ziggler is being miscast, for lack of a better term. He just has natural heel instincts, and is not trying to do much to get himself over as a babyface. On the basis of actual ring work, there are much better match ups for him on the heel side, especially with Bryan and Punk on the face side. I would not be surprised to see Ziggler go back to heel in a few months, re-establish his solid work against a capable face, and shoot back up the card.
ReplyDeleteZiggler said in an interview last week he doesn't plan on changing anything about his act to be more of a face. It is kind of refreshing in some ways.
ReplyDeleteI'd think injuries were more of a contributing factor.
ReplyDeleteCena is the perfect wrestler in the sense that he can do very high profile jobs and maintain his wacky tobacky heat.
ReplyDeletePunk beat him
Bryan beat him
Now whereas Punk had the leverage of re-signing and demanding more of a presence in the card, Bryan does not. I will go on the stance that Vince isn't behind him 100% and is only using him because of the Bellas and the diva show at this point.
Yes he has been pushed hard since the Sheamus loss, but his title win only serves to give the new Orton/HHH regime some GREAT matches and solidfy the Orton turn.
I dont see Bryan getting the title back anytime soon and I see Cena coming back like a knight in shining armor after Bryan has been dismissed during the fall.
I'm surprised the WWE hasn't marketed this gem:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vat19.com/dvds/beardo-original-beard-hat.cfm?adid=gbase&gclid=CNaZ7d26jLkCFZFFMgodDBIAVw
I like his offense as a face, but yeah, the character's falling flat for me.
ReplyDeleteAnd while that may work for Punk, Austin and others, it absolutely doesn't work for him. His act screams douchebag heel, especially since he doesn't have a strong body of work in terms of story development to back himself up.
ReplyDeleteThey really need to move him back as a heel, maybe this time keep him away from a "so-and-so is my girlfriend" angle and just let him be a show off.
Bryan got over while losing a lot, yes. Bryan REALLY got over, as in biggest pops in the entire company, when WWE cut the bullshit and started having him beat everyone.
ReplyDeletehi hhh/vince/stephanie!
ReplyDeleteI think I hate him more (in kayfabe) as a face than I did as a heel. There is absolutely nothing likable about this guy's character.
ReplyDeleteYou see Scott there's your problem right there. You say that you are going to step back a little bit and give some new guys a shot and here you are posting questions on the same day, the SAME DAY that the new guys posted their Raw reviews. Didn't you notice that MIKE MEARS WAS GETTING OVER!!! Why did you have to go and steal the spotlight from him and squash any chance he has at a push. I realize that he doesn't post Raw reviews in the so called "Scott Keith style" but that's reason to bury the guy. I mean his review is literally underneath your Daniel Bryan question now.
ReplyDeletethread jack--
ReplyDeleteImagining poor Dougie continuously refreshing the blog praying that my ROH review would be up was simply to heartbreaking, so I felt the need to tell you all what's up. Since this weeks ROH was a collection of matches that would have been reviewed by Curry and Ryan before me I've decided to just tack my thoughts onto the beginning of next weeks rather then do a full recap. Instead this week I'm going to work on the review of "OLE-OLE the best of El Generico that was promised to the winner of the "what the fuck is Truth Martini's tattoo" contest winner. DVD review should go up this weekend
Mears is just going to have to learn Scott Keith style. It's the only way he's going to make it on this blog.
ReplyDeleteYeah, this is what I mean by question 1:)
ReplyDeleteI think Bryan will get a good 6 months plus chance as the top guy. Is that enough time to see if he is a success? If he isn't, shouldn't he be kept in the upper mid carf and soneone else give a go?
Maybe his upcoming matches with the shield will help?
ReplyDeleteBryan will probably be the Mankind to Cena's Austin.
ReplyDeleteThat's true, and an excellent point.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the Litmus test is:
ReplyDeleteHave Orton and Bryan Square off in a match, at The Mobile Civic Center, in Mobile, Alabama, filled exclusively with 10,000 local fans. If the crowd is 85% behind Bryan, and Orton gets booed, I'm convinced that everything has worked out perfectly.
Right now, I can't quite shake the feeling that Bryan is over like MAD in the Blue states, and only somewhat over in the Red States.
...and we know how HHH treated Mankind.
ReplyDeleteCan I just finally come clean and say that even though he's a fantastic bumper/seller and underrated on the mic, Ziggler just doesn't have it? His offense is sloppy and often inconsistent, his character doesn't really change or ever show strong motivation, and even though he's been out there on TV every week for four or five years, it feels like you don't really know him or what makes him tick. Honestly I just think he's better suited to being a good hand than a top guy.
ReplyDeleteDo we really need another in depth discussion of why 50/50 booking doesn't work again?
ReplyDeleteNever underestimate the power of a good finisher.
ReplyDeleteDolph's matches have no psychology other than bumping for someone else. In HBK's book I believe it was one of the bookers that warned him about that in matches. Anyway, When you have a good finisher you have something to build to. The Zig-Zag just doesn't do that.
You depress me
ReplyDeleteDoes the BoD have a developmental territory to send him to?
ReplyDeletethere's meds for that.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed like they were gonna give Ziggler the superkick (that's what he used to beat Cena at TLC '12), but then that went away. That move alone could have been a huge difference maker in getting him over.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the med-free option... BAN THE FUJ
ReplyDeleteYes, it's called 411mania.
ReplyDeleteSaskatoon, I believe
ReplyDeleteI'll indulge you. For what?
ReplyDeleteI think it's way too early to write the book on the guy yet (he's only just recently escaped the Kofi Kingston lower card hell), but yeah, he might not be "Punk/Bryan" megastar material. Doesn't mean he can't still be a second tier guy for a long time.
ReplyDeleteIf we're recasting modern WWE as the Attitude Era (which is what they obviously did last night), I think Ziggler comps out as 1998 Triple H. He's the smarmy midcard face who talks a lot of smack, ALMOST seems like a top star but not quite, and gets his nose in the big storylines in a way that the fans enjoy.
Unfortunately for Dolph, he's gonna have to wait awhile before he can marry the bosses' daughter and get pushed to the moon.
I think they will now. The fanbase you're speaking of reacts pretty well to what happens on TV, and I don't see how your average non-internet fan could cheer for Orton over Bryan after last night.
ReplyDeleteQuestion #1: Scott, you should go through the Raw live thread, you'll find plenty of folks complaining that the heel actually got the upper hand last night and thinks it means Bryan is headed right back down the card after he jobs in 6 straight PPVs to Orton and HHH.
ReplyDeleteI think Dolph is a several time WHC, but at most a brief 1-time WWE champion when it's all said and done... I agree with Ry's points on him.
ReplyDeleteJust call this Q&A The Pedigree... no one kicks out of it, including older blog posts!
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, isn't it odd that the move was never re-named? Once HHH dropped the blue-blood gimmick for DX, you think they would've renamed the finisher.
Well, get ready for the annual 0.3 ratings drop in a few weeks once football starts... hopefully there's not panic once that occurs.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm looking at.
ReplyDeleteOrton (a Vince project)
HHH (the son in law)
together?
Bryan is gonna make Orton look GREAT in matches in the same vein Christian made Orton look great during their little fied a couple years back.
In a lot of ways, the concussion/title-loss-face-turn really fucked things up for Ziggler. If Zigs had gotten a proper heel title reign, before say dropping the title to RVD in the fall, he totally would have been made. The douchebag act with AJ and Big E had shitloads of potential— never even got to tap how much heat the boyfriend/girlfriend double champions could have drawn.
ReplyDeleteTHAT SAID, I think last night is a great sign for him. A storyline like the Corporation is built to get babyfaces over if done correctly. Just by virtue of going out there and talking trash to HHH/Vince/Steph and having killer matches with the Shield, Ziggler can get over huge. It's HHH's DX role in 98, and Jericho's role in 2000.
Not saying it's a sure thing, but I think there's way more potential for something to break here than there would be in Ziggler chasing Del Rio.
The beard is gonna go as part of this storyline, guaranteed.
ReplyDeleteI still think the Rude Awakening would work. Something that comes out of nowhere can pretty much be used on anyone and can easily be sold by an opponent.
ReplyDeleteI knew that was coming. I was just happy to be the setup man.
ReplyDeleteFor depressing me with your pessimistic view of Bryan's future
ReplyDeleteSo basically he ends up with Chris Jericho's career? Not everyone has to hit Austin/Rock levels to end up as a success.
ReplyDeleteWorld needs midcarders too ya knowwww...
ReplyDeleteI dunno man, it could be wishful thinking but I don't think Cena figures into the end-game of the Corporation stuff.
ReplyDeleteMy guess, and yeah it's a guess, is that Cena really does take a shitload of time off, comes back and enters himself in the Rumble. (There's your huge selling point for the Rumble— Cena's return.) He doesn't win the Rumble (I really think this is Punk's year), and therefore does what every megastar with nothing else to do/prove has to do: He challenges The Undertaker.
Cena's coming back for The Streak, not the Corporation.
lol... I don't even know where to begin.
ReplyDeleteHow many can't miss project has the WWE "missed"
They average about one a year.
I believe Daniel Bryan is a pawn. He gets the good crowd reactions, so Orton has some heat going into subsequent matches with him.
He provides the workrate, Orton gets the duke(s). Bryan maintains his heat.
Cena comes back, Bryan goes back to being upper midcard.
Cena/Orton(HHH) in the winter.
Sounds good, but I feel WM 30 is title vs streak.
ReplyDeleteOrton/HHH has to implode sooner or later.
(kayfabe) Orton is gonna be tired of being under HHH after a while.
Does WWE even run Mobile, Alabama? Huh.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, Anaheim CA is far from a smark town. Hell, other than the Brooklyn show the night after MITB, have they even been running Raw from any smark or Northeast towns the last few months? I don't think so, and Bryan's been over like rover at every one of them.
I think they're past the point of Bryan being a regional fad.
And I thank you for giving me the opportunity.
ReplyDeleteit's still impossible for me to take anyone named 'Dolph Ziggler´ seriously no matter how good he may be.
ReplyDeleteWe'll just have to haze him, and possibly rape him, until he learns how we like things done around here.
ReplyDeleteWell that's a lot different because the WHC at the time was on a specific brand, where now it's basically like the IC title of the 80s & 90s. Plus, Jericho was WON wrestler of the year for two straight years, something I don't see Dolph pulling off.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised he didn't come up with some penis inspired name during the DX days.
ReplyDeleteAm I crazy or are adults that call them selves hhh fans as bad as the people in the 70's that proudly voted for Nixon?
ReplyDeleteHe was not a crook!!!!
ReplyDeleteThe Johnson Drop perhaps?
ReplyDeleteI'm happy to have you point me to post or what I should google to look it up rather than repeating it. Honestly, although I've seen references here or there I don't think I've ever seen much of a full-blown discussion other than a comment thread here or there. I'm looking for why *you* said no, not the rest of the BoD.
ReplyDeleteDude, no way. No efinn way do they have Cena lose clean at Summerslam (one of his what, 5 clean losses in the last 10 years?) just to job Bryan out to Orton.
ReplyDeleteMaybe HHH poses some concern over how much ass he'll show to get Bryan over, but I really think Orton is a non-issue. He's a two-strike guy who everyone realizes has reached his ceiling as a draw. He's in this spot because he's the PERFECT guy for it (main event cred, blank slate as a character) and he's there to put the babyface over. I doubt management really gives two shits about Orton in this situation.
And we all need to stop acting like Daniel Bryan has been set up to fail by WWE and they aren't behind him 100%. Christ, the guy has been pushed from Day 1 in a way that the other midcard folk heroes (Ziggler, Kofi, Swagger, etc etc) never were. He won the WHC a year and a half in, held it for 4 months, and then spent another 4 months in WWE title matches. And then spent the better part of a year getting shitloads of TV time and defending the tag titles.
THEN he beats every top guy cleanly, including Cena only THREE years into the company.
Bryan's trajectory isn't Eddie Guerrero or Chris Benoit or the other "vanilla midgets" that WWE reluctantly pushed half-heartedly. His trajectory is more like John Cena's.
You know, for all his faults, Nixon did some good things. He started the EPA, he started the clean air and water acts, he continued the NASA missions which put a man on the moon (Albeit for odd reasons), and though a lot of people blame Vietnam on him, there's plenty of blame to go around and a lot of it falls onto Johnson's shoulders. He also opened up trade and dialogue with China.
ReplyDeleteHe should have changed it to The Glass Ceiling years ago.
ReplyDeleteAs long as Daniel Bryan beats Orton (and HHH) down the line and gets his retribution along with the WWE title, then this storyline is a WIN.
ReplyDeleteDB is the focus of the show right now and I don't see that changing any time soon, title or not this is a huge sign he is already a top guy.
He also wanted universal healthcare and started the DEA he would likely be a Democrat today... and if he was a Republican the Teabaggers would have nothing to do with him (which is about as big of a political compliment as I can give) and try to primary him.
ReplyDeleteThat's the exact problem with Miz, too.
ReplyDeleteFor arguments sake, how many can't miss projects in the last, let's say five years, would you say:
ReplyDelete1) WWE failed on. Like, completely fucked up. (So for instance, I don't think "Brock Lesnar" qualifies because honestly, the 3-matches per year deal kinda handicaps what they could really get from him besides what they've already gotten)
2) The projects were at the level that Daniel Bryan currently is at.
#2 is the tricky one. That means you can't say "Nexus" because gimme a break, something like Nexus couldn't sniff the ass of what Bryan has gotten in terms of reactions, match quality, and potential to make money. Same goes for "Kofi at the Garden" or similar midcarders who got the rug pulled from them too soon.
I'm not saying WWE doesn't fuck things up— far from it. But Vince is usually pretty good about going all the way when he has a chance to make a fan-friendly superface, and that's what Bryan is right now. I think Vince goes all the way with him.
This guy.... uhm, comments on it in a manner I agree with.
ReplyDeleteAnd just to extend the analogy, for all his faults HHH has had some damn good matches.
ReplyDeleteYep. Hindsight villifies him, but the stuff he is remembered for is commonplace in the last several presidents
ReplyDeleteBryan is a top guy now for sure, but I fear he will become more "Mick Foley" than "Steve Austin" in all of this. Bryan as the underdog getting the belt, while we build more toward Cena's big return. But I see no reason not to enjoy it for now.
ReplyDeleteWWE has an interesting luxury right now, in that even with Cena out, they still have two red-hot babyface acts going. It's almost as if they could push two guys to World titles and have it culminate in one big match in early April. (If only that other title meant anything)
ReplyDeleteHell, if Reagan were alive and active today the Teabaggers would have nothing to do with him. Reagan actually compromised with the Democrats on issues.
ReplyDeleteSorry, that was meant to be response to an earlier comment...I had trouble posting from my phone.
ReplyDeletePlus the name "Dolph Ziggler" just screams "midcard 4 Ever!"
ReplyDeleteI'm glad Orton is finally a heel again. That face nonsense was stale. He's just a natural heel.
ReplyDeleteHis offense? Uh...dropkicks? And uh...neckbreakers?
ReplyDeleteHe wrestles well as face, with the counters and transitions, but he's got a weak moveset.
And he's also an unlikable dickbag as a face.
EXACTLY!
ReplyDeleteAs a heel, he had a girlfriend that he cared for and a friend in Big E, even if they were heels, at least the display of affection is a humanizing trait. As a face, he shows no compassion and no vulnerability. Sure he's "brave", but he's also a cocky frat boy that probably has sex in front of a mirror.
Refreshingly dumb.
ReplyDeleteThat Mike Mears, he doesn't upvote every Scott Keith comment. He doesn't deserve his spot.
ReplyDelete411 SLAM
ReplyDeleteWould it be possible to repackage him now? Do you think he's too well known?
ReplyDeleteI think his main problem is that he doesn't have the Punk/Bryan "do everything possible to get the crowd to react" attitude. He's been raised by WWE, and he seems unwilling or incapable of finding a real character that people can sink their teeth into.
ReplyDeleteHe's a gifted wrestler but he's strongly lacking the crowd interaction. I think the safety net lacking indies gives guys a lot of practice improvising, and Dolph just doesn't have that desperate hunger and need for cheers and boos.
Beyond domestic policy, Nixon was a pretty good president. He'd make a great secretary of state in my dream cabinet.
ReplyDelete^^^^ HHH closet fan
ReplyDeleteIt probably is too late, which is why they should never have given him such an awful name in the first place.
ReplyDeleteCM Punk is megastar status, he's at quite possibly the highest he can get, the crowd are eating out of his hand everywhere he goes, he's got the highest level of trust in the back, he's getting some top feuds, theres very little he has left to do. All that said, Daniel Bryan got a much better deal than Punk did in 2011 and considering that the summer of punk was somewhat of a failure...it wasn't that much of one considering Punk's level right now.
ReplyDeletePoint being, what they are doing with Dbry is so clearly aimed at making him the top guy in the business...not just a main eventer, it's not half assed, it's not a shot in the dark. It's planned out, they stacked the odds against him, they've created a perfect foil to him in the HHH/McMahon stable and Orton (which is the most important part) they have everything from his big crowd finishers to his merch all flowing right. The guy is primed not only to be the next big main eventer but to be the next "man" in the company.
So it would be pretty damn hard for them to screw this up.
He introduced himself to everyone for at least 2 years.
ReplyDeleteTRIM the beard. But he can't lose it entirely.
ReplyDeleteNot closeted about liking Triple H. He has some of the best psychology I've ever seen and never disappoints on the mic. He's involved himself unnecessarily in angles but that doesn't mean he isn't talented.
ReplyDeleteI think if he were renamed "Nick Ziggler", with "Dolph" being handwaved as a nickname, it could work.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to #2, don't let Bryan's success retrovalidate all the missteps they've made. Just cause things work out doesn't mean you made the right decision; it means everybody worked their collective ass off to compensate, and to keep things from falling apart.
ReplyDeleteI definitely see some pessimism and paranoia from the pro-Bryan crowd. Just look at Bryan's run since WrestleMania: He's been main-eventing RAW and Smackdown for months, he's being given 15-20 minute TV matches to shine, he's gone over Orton and The Shield and Cena cleanly in the ring, he's gotten the upper hand on Vince and Stephanie on the mic, he won the WWE championship clean off Cena at one of WWE's biggest PPVs, and now he's being positioned as the top babyface in the company with Cena gone. And you can't say it's been ALL Bryan like he's succeeding despite what WWE wants. They're the ones booking the main events and the long promo segments. Clearly they love Bryan and are pushing him as such, but you still have fans who act like they're not giving Bryan a fair shake.
ReplyDeleteNixon basically declared war on the baby boomers on behalf of their parents by painting them as dangerous radicals.
ReplyDeleteNixon did a lot of good things in a pragmatic sense, but I feel his enduring legacy will be that he helped create an America that only cared about a certain segment of the population, and treated the other segments as leeches.
Yeah, few things irritate like fans acting like their favourites are succeeding in spite of the higher-ups. Give credit where it's due, I say.
ReplyDeleteThe same reason you're supposed to cheer for Cena and Sheamus, because.
ReplyDelete