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What was the rationale behind the Bret-to-Backlund-to-Diesel transition? If the end goal was Diesel getting the belt, why not just have him win the Rumble and take it off Bret at Wrestlemania 11? They could have done Razor-Shawn II for the IC title too. With Bigelow-LT drawing the mainstream attention, they could have really showcased their top four guys in showstealing matches. Did Vince owe Backlund or something?
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Yup. He was basically throwing Mr Backlund a bone for his previous years of service. Not much more to it than that.
Huh...well I guess Hogan got a "Thank you" run too.
ReplyDeleteToo bad Hogan wouldn't put over Bret the way Backlund put over Nash.
ReplyDeleteNot in 8 seconds, per se. Just the idea of passing the torch.
They really screwed that one up, Mr. Bob Backlund was great. Should have done it at the Rumble instead of doing it at TV.
ReplyDeleteWho could get a run like that today? With two world titles, it dilutes things, as has been mentioned before; maybe Santino with a one-week World Heavyweight title reign?
ReplyDeleteToo bad the Bret-Backlund WM match didn't amount to much. If they'd had one as good as their Survivor Series match, the show would've been a lot better.
ReplyDeleteHe put over yoko. As asked.
ReplyDeleteThey did it at MSG and I think Nash said the idea was to make the MSG shows a big deal again.
ReplyDeleteI felt like Flair deserved a run like that in '03... or whenever it was that he had that awesome RAW main event with HHH when they were partners and they did the tribute after RAW... could have done a 1 week run without doing any damage. Hogan got a run like that, so did Backlund and HBK... Flair deserved one also... but to be clear I DO NOT ever want to see that now... even from that era Flair as really decomposed.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree, easily could have just had a triple threat hell in a cell at the bad blood ppv, and have triple h regain the belt.
ReplyDeleteAlas, that was in the midst of the Triple H world title reign that seemingly would never end. Armageddon 02 to Unforgiven 03 baby.
You can't really compare Santino to Backlund. Santino's been a good performer doing what he was asked but Backlund got that as a thank you for being a major main event star in an era that wasn't as profitable.
ReplyDeleteAs far as modern thank you runs, you're looking at guys like Big Show, Kane, maybe Mysterio if he gets his health back (although you could argue that Mysterio's 2 hour title reign WAS his thank you run). They've earned a little recognition for putting up with Vince's booking for a combined 50 years. Even then those guys aren't really on Backlund's level.
That was a very old-school transitional technique. If I'm not mistaken, Ivan Koloff, Stan Stasiak, and Iron Sheik all had very short reigns as they transitioned to Pedro Morales, Bruno Sammartino, and Hulk Hogan respectively. They were never really title holders so much as title passers. Backlund was a former champion, was in a hot feud with Hart, and had copious amounts of heat; it was a pretty reasonable booking move to use him to move the title. I know some were mad about making Hart look weak with the 8 second match, but it was logical booking to kick off Diesel's monster face title push. Also, it's not like Backlund took the title off the Hitman cleanly. Bret presumably would have beaten Backlund if all things were fair; it just would have taken him longer because he relied on finesse rather than raw power (like Diesel).
ReplyDeleteI thought the heel turn was well done also. Really thought he was going to shake hands with Bret and make up cause that is what always happened. These days we would be expecting him to turn cause that's what always happens now. Thanks Uncle Vinny-Ru
ReplyDeleteThe booking was strange around that time. Backlund's character was really working and him getting the title made sense - but they weren't really trying to get Backlund's character over they were just looking to give Diesel a heel champion to destroy. So they let Diesel destroy Backlund and put the WWF Machine behind him, only his first pay per view opponent is Bret Hart and they won't put him over clear. It's probably wasted putting him over Bret in the undercard of the Royal Rumble but then why book his first pay per view title defense as a match he can't win?
ReplyDeleteBacklund was such a goody goody character that I didn't for a second believe he'd turn heel - completely caught me off guard.
ReplyDeleteChristian, but he's already gotten his reward title run. Well, for a couple of days at least. Maybe RVD? I think all the guys who have been around long enough to get consideration have already gotten their title reign. Hardcore Holly just missed out.
ReplyDeleteHave you seen Diesel on the 95 timeline? What he was saying actually made sense. They make this big deal to get him the belt and then immediately go meh on him.
ReplyDeleteYeah I saw it, that's why I brought it up. I never really put much thought into his title run/failure but when you look back on it he makes some solid points - in his first title defense he doesn't win, they won't put him over the previous champion, and come Wrestlemania he's in the undercard behind Lawrence Taylor. Pushing him, but not really pushing him. He came off well in that interview - he pointed out stupid things they did to him but he didn't seem bitter about it.
ReplyDeleteIf Vince has such a fetish for big men, like he's assumed to have, then why wouldn't he push the guy? I know people get into a fuss about Survivor Series 97, but if someone wants to get on Bret about not doing a job then Royal Rumble 95 is it.
ReplyDeleteNash's 1995 run was doomed to fail anyway because he was such a terrible face. Well maybe terrible is a bit strong but I can almost guarantee it would have gone better if he was a heel.
ReplyDeleteJericho is one i'd like to see get a short gold watch run to transition to someone. He's earned it, and it'd give a nice little pop from the crowds since he gets over so well.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could give this more up votes. Flair made a hell of a comeback after years of Bischoff burying him in WCW. I enjoyed every second of Flair's 00's WWE run.
ReplyDeleteAnd then he was amazingly good at playing that character. It's kind of a shame it happened that late in his career. I wonder what would have happened if he'd been able to do that in, say, 1986.
ReplyDeletePhrederic will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he meant his run as "undisputed" champ in early 00's.
ReplyDeleteI always thought Owen should've gotten the Rumble shot. It would've paid off his needing to get the belt off Bret a Survivor Series, and given Diesel someone to beat. Backlund could've run interference for Owen (to pay him back for Survivor Series and get revenge on Diesel), Bret returns to stop Backlund, Diesel beats Owen.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of crazy to think that at 43 we thought of Backlund as the old guy. But, HHH is 43 and he was just under the main event with Brock (36) not long ago. And Rock is 41 and was just recently champ.
ReplyDeleteI think improvements in work out regiments, combined with better science nutrition and maybe a lil' dose of HGH has changed the aging curve for anyone smart enough to take advantage of it.
ReplyDeleteGood call, I was trying to think of a heel Diesel could beat there and Owen's the best choice. It's a tough one to book though because Diesel needs to definitively beat Owen and the Bret/Backlund interference muddies that a bit, but they have to further the Owen/Backlund/Bret issue to. It almost would have be better for Diesel if his first title defense was settling his business with Shawn and Wrestlemania is where he goes over an established guy like Bret to cement himself as the top guy.
ReplyDeleteWas Diesel the first example of taking a popular heel and changing everything that made him popular when he's turned face? He was great in the tweener and eventual heel role that he played right before he left - I remember reading that he was leaving and I really didn't care at the time, but after those last couple of months I thought they were going to miss him - and they did.
ReplyDeleteTweener Diesel is probably one of my favorite characters in wrestling ever. He was kinda Attitude Era-lite before the Attitude Era.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why I'm such a Nash fanboy. I liked him as a kid and just could never let him go. No matter what he lacked in the ring, I just always found him to be really, really cool. If his in-ring skills could match his charisma, he'd be one of the best ever. I dunno, I'm rambling.
I don't know if Flair was buried, or, if he was, if it was really unfair. It was 1996, the nWo was on fire, he'd brought in talent from all over the world and the established ex-WWF talent he brought in had them as the #1 promotion for the first time in existence - it's not Ric Flair and the 4 Horsemen's day anymore. I didn't think of him as being buried - he was still on the show, he still had his interview segment every week, he still got to play a role against the nWo, I think him and Piper won a couple of matches against them. The lawsuit thing in 1998 aside Flair wasn't treated that badly.
ReplyDeleteHe's by far my favorite shoot interview, I could listen to him talk for hours. There's probably a little bit of bullshit thrown in there but he comes off well, he's funny, he doesn't take himself too seriously and he has a lot of insight into things. He's definitely one of the smarter minds in the business.
ReplyDeleteIt's too bad he really started to come into his own with the Diesel character right before he left - I mean, it worked out well for him, the nWo was hot and it made him rich, but at a certain point he just didn't seem to give a shit in WCW (like most guys) - I wonder what would have happened if he'd stayed in the WWF with the edgier Diesel character.
That's kinda the sad thing about 1995 and why I don't hold Nash completely responsible for the lack of drawing. Your biggest heel in 1995 is Owen Hart. No disrespect to Owen intended, but he always came off as being a midcard guy. The top of the midcard, but midcard nonetheless.
ReplyDeleteI don't really remember what Bret said about the match in his book, but I recall getting the vibe reading it that he wasn't thrilled that Vince was taking the title off him and having the nerve to try someone else, but he doesn't mention not wanting to job to him - but if he's as smart, selfless and all about the business as he claims he is he probably knows Diesel has to win there. It's just speculation, but either way if Vince wasn't ready to put Diesel over Bret he shouldn't have booked the match.
ReplyDeleteHe'd definitely fit right in in the Attitude Era and would have probably had a really good feud with Austin in 1998. I could see him easing right into Kane's role in the whole thing minus all the being Undertaker's brother stuff.
ReplyDeleteAfter Wrestlemania he faces Sid. Sid's a name but the matches are terrible, and Sid has the stench of the Million Dollar Corporation all over him. The next month he's teaming with Bam Bam, who's not over, against Sid and Tatanka, followed by another match with Sid. He follows that up with a title program against Mable. After that he's teaming with Shawn against Yokozuna and Owen Hart, followed by the British Bulldog before losing the title to Bret.
ReplyDeleteSid is a main eventer and Yokozuna had been one two years earlier. That's it.
Meanwhile, Diesel, Undertaker, Bret, Shawn and Razor are all your top guys and are all faces, thus don't wrestle each other.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that there were guys there who couldn't draw, it was just everybody you had that could were all on the same side of the fence.
And yeah, there was Sid, but he was Sid. The guy the crowd would cheer for, until he got in the ring and then everyone would stop giving a shit about.
ReplyDeleteOh wow, the guy who wrote that email must be my secret twin or something because that's how I always felt they should have booked WM.
ReplyDeleteIt was too soon for Diesel and Shawn to get pushed as main eventers, so Diesel getting the main event rub against Bret and Shawn getting his win back from Razor as you slowly build HBK up as a main eventer and then you can do the Diesel/Shawn main event match at Summerslam.
Plus there's certain symmetry to that too, because HBK and Diesel's problems first started at Summerslam the year prior.
Pretty much; they made the mistake with him and Michaels, turning them babyface then killing the edge that made them such cool heels in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI think the scmhozz there was Vince's idea, as he was hedging his bets and probably still wanted to keep Bret strong.
ReplyDeleteAfter he refused to put over Bret.
ReplyDeleteJust a lil HGH. Lol. Bravo
ReplyDeleteCompletely forgot about that one. Before my birth.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I was talking about the early oughts one.
Have you seen Bob fucking Backlund? He's going to outlive all of the guys with improved work out regiments and scientifically-advanced diets.
ReplyDeleteBut it sort of cut Nash's knees off because there was no build to it. At least do it on Raw to get a "moment" out of it. I think ultimately it was a bad decision. Didn't they shorten the RR that year down to 45 minutes? Put it back to 55-60 and give Diesel a shortish 4-5 minute squash + entrances.
ReplyDeleteI'd have made it real clear that Bret's just there to stop Backlund's interference, not to interfere on Diesel's behalf against Owen. Then have Bret shake and raise Diesel's hand after the match.
ReplyDeleteDiesel goes on to defend against Shawn at WM, and make Bret-Backlund into an elimination triple threat with Owen.
Backlund would have been great with a long IC title run. Great character, versatile wrestler.
ReplyDeleteMuch as I hate agreeing with Nash, he's right when he says in his shoot that the RR match basically doomed his title reign almost as soon as it started.
ReplyDeleteGoing over Bret in a hard fought match would have been their best shot at giving him credibility in the eyes of the fans, and Bret was sufficiently over that the loss wouldn't have done him any permanent damage. Certainly the screwy non-finish didn't help anyone....
From what I gather, HGH is perfect for wrestlers. Larry King claims it works wonders for him, even at the age of 137.
ReplyDeleteNo he was buried from the moment Hogan stepped into WCW.
ReplyDeleteForced to turn heel after "unifying" the belts from Sting even though he had done the huge babyface run from Starrcade 93-Bash 94.
Jobbed at Bash (that had purpose)
Won by DQ at Clash 27 I believe against Hogan.
Jobbed in a retirement match at Havoc 94.
Jobbed against Hogan along with Vader.
Jobbed at Uncensored 96 against Hogan/Savage.
Utterly dismantled at damn near every Nitro after July- Sept 96
Jobbed against the NWO Fall Brawl 96
Won against the Wolfpac in summer of 97 but they got their heat back with beatdowns on Nitro.
Horsemen parody
Jobbed against the NWO in Fall Brawl 97.
Jobbed against Perfect at WW3 97
Left off Starrcade 97 IIRC
Feuded and lost to Bischoff in Starrcade 98, but got his win back on Nitro...
I can go on.
...WHY DIDN'T HE STAY IN WWF!??!?! They actually respected him!
ReplyDeleteMotherfucker.
yea. he makes space to workout in every hotel room he stays in.
ReplyDeletethats dedication.
Vince wanted Shawn vs Diesel at 11 without having Bret job to Diesel, so he used Backlund as a transitional champ to get there. Nothing more to it than that.
ReplyDeleteThat match was never scheduled.
ReplyDeleteVince wanted Backlund to dye his hair black and challenge Hogan as a heel in 1984. Backlund said no and then he was done in the WWF
ReplyDeleteHim and Bruno. Bruno looked better at his HoF acceptance than he did when he was the main event... when he said he still works out 6 days a week as a 70+ year old I absolutely believe it.
ReplyDeleteBacklund has some dirt on McMahon the same way Jerry Lawler and Vickie Guerrero do
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think Backlund isn't doing the same things?
ReplyDeleteI can't see RVD getting one due to his TNA run, no?
ReplyDeleteIf Scott Hall could go again, maybe Jake Roberts?
ReplyDeleteThey should have set up the 4 Horsemen as the face stable that was the bulwark against the NWO. Maybe have Arn retire and Mongo their spots go to Sting and Luger. It also gets over the importance of the NWO as a threat, Sting & Luger putting aside their hatred of Flair (and Anderson) to fight the invading force.
ReplyDeleteI'm the same way about Sid. But Nash had the same problem as HHH: completely unwilling to look weak.
ReplyDeleteA little bullshit? C'mon, the revisionist history on Nash is laughable. He's a good interview, charming but Nash always had to look like the coolest, toughest guy and he seems to see himself that way outside of the ring. And the first time Nash says, "mea culpa, that was a bad idea and it was on me" will be the first.
ReplyDeleteWe joke about Vince's big man obsession but good lord does Nash have it.
Triple H is more HGH than man at this point.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget improved travel and lifestyle habits. You don't have guys sleeping in cars and drinking kegs of beer as much.
ReplyDeleteWell, Vickie's husband did die while working for the WWE and then got over as a good heel so I don't know what dirt she had. And I'd expect the WWE to have the dirt on Lawler based on his predilections.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how HBK got in the main event with Nash. I'm sure it had nothing to do with politics.
ReplyDeleteWell the Vickie argument is never-ending on BoD but I am of the opinion that part of the reason they kept her around and feature her quite prominently is because she would (try to) bring the WWE down if she were released. Lawler is like 15 years past his sell by date and I am baffled as to why he's still there, so I'm making a wild assumption that he has photo evidence of Vince getting freaky with Dink or something.
ReplyDeleteI think Vince is actually pretty loyal. I think that they initially brought Vickie in to support her and discourage her from suing but I think they kept her because she's good at her job. Lawler is still there because he's a company guy.
ReplyDeleteGreat point; while both Thank You's, the Backlund one was a completely different animal. I remember Santino finishing 2nd in the Rumble, and to Daniel Bryan in the Elimination Chamber, and thinking, "They at least recognize his service." That could be enough.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking the ultimate "Thank You" to Kane would be a Royal Rumble win; it's something like 12 straight appearances without a win.
It may have been because he had the talent to go on to become one of, if the the, greatest off all time and he had to start in the main event sometime.
ReplyDeleteOh, I don't disagree Shawn is a GOAT candidate or that he didn't deserve main event status. Just that I'm sure Shawn politicked for that spot at 11. But I also think HBK-Diesel should have been the main event.
ReplyDeleteForced to dress like a woman at Uncensored 95
ReplyDeleteLost a strap match he wasn't even in at Uncensored 95
Even if they keep the Crow Sting storyline, bring in Macho to take his place.
ReplyDeleteBut wasn't being the sneaky heel who got his ass kicked straight up Flair's thing, pretty much always? Why is it such a crime to have him do it for Hogan's sake?
ReplyDeleteOnce the nWo rolls around it's 1996/1997 and the company is soaring to heights Ric Flair never took it. The nWo's drawing, there's other top faces in WCW, so it wasn't good for Ric Flair. So what? It's not all about Ric Flair.
And by 1999 he's back on top for a while, running WCW, holding the WCW Championship for a couple of months, right in the middle of the New Blood angle in 2000, running things again in 2001. So he didn't have long title reigns and get to wrestle for an hour every night anymore. Life goes on, Flair had his run but by 1994 WCW was ready to try something bigger than Flair.
And he only beats Shawn at Mania because Sid screws up.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what it does to Shawn's eventual rise, but I almost think it'd be better for Diesel if he beat Shawn at the Royal Rumble - Shawn's not a main eventer yet but their history sells the match. Then Diesel beats Bret at Wrestlemania to cement himself as the top guy. Shawn wasn't really believable as a threat until after his performance in the WM match.
ReplyDeleteOr not put the Giant in the NWO and have him join up. But the Horsemen were synonymous with WCW. If you want someone fighting the invaders...
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, I was not watching at that point. I tuned out for about a year (Diesel's reign). When I came back Shawn was getting the rocket push.
ReplyDeleteI assume Lawler also does exactly what Vince wants him to do commentary-wise. So many other guys quit announcing fairly quickly with the main complaint Vince screaming in their ear what to say, how to say it, etc.
ReplyDelete-1st match is Bash at the Beach 94 -- Hogan wins the title.
ReplyDelete-2nd match is Clash 27 -- Flair orchestrates a severe knee injury, Hogan still overcomes
-3rd match is Halloween Havoc 94 -- cage match with Sherri interfering, Hogan still overcomes and Flair jobs
-4th "match" is Uncensored 95 -- Flair isn't even in the strap match, but somehow Hogan still overcomes and Flair jobs
-5th match is Slamboree 95 -- Hogan/Savage vs. Vader/Flair, Hogan overcomes and Flair jobs
-6th match is Uncensored 96 -- 8-on-2 in a triple-decker cage, but somehow Hogan (and Savage) still overcome and Flair jobs
Cowardly heel or not, he never got over on Hogan even for a minute. I can't remember a single time Hogan ever looked weak against Flair to build any kind of heat. It was like a Saturday morning cartoon: Flair was a threat because WCW said so, yet Hogan always won at the end of the episode.
'HHH' is literally one letter away from being pure 'HGH'
ReplyDeleteI think you can still do the Bret vs. Backlund stuff through Royal Rumble, then have Diesel win the Rumble (with Shawn still nearly going the distance). Diesel can beat Bret for the title at Wrestlemania. Not saying Nash was going to draw like Hogan in any sense, but I feel like he might have done slightly better with a better chase and better opponents as champ. There was no real "chase" to get behind, just a sudden title change on a house show. Shawn was not a real threat at Wrestlemania, even if the match was strong. Then he had no strong heel foil during his reign before dropping the belt to Bret Hart in the end.
ReplyDelete