Recently there was a thread on the blog about Diesel's WWF title run, in which the claim was made that his reign was sabotaged by the fact that he didn't go over decisively in his first PPV title defense at the '95 Rumble. I've heard Nash offer the same opinion in shoot interviews and many BOD commenters were echoing this line of thinking.
But here's the thing I haven't seen anyone mention: that type of booking was hardly exclusive to Diesel. In 1992, Savage's first PPV title defense at Summerslam ended in a countout after lots of interference. In 1993, Yokozuna's first PPV title defense was a countout loss at Summerslam. In 1994, Bret's first PPV title defense was a DQ loss to Diesel himself at King of the Ring. And in 1996, Shawn's first PPV title defense ended in a double pin at Beware of Dog.
You can agree or disagree with that type of booking all you want. Perhaps a strong win over Backlund or Owen at the Rumble would have been a better alternative for Diesel. And maybe you don't like the booking in the other examples above. But to say that the finish at the '95 Rumble tanked Diesel's reign off the bat is misguided in my opinion. If Diesel had gone over strong at the Rumble, he would have been the exception, not the rule. If that booking was really so detrimental to Diesel's reign, then how come the same booking is never criticized when it happened with many other champions?
Thanks for keeping the blog going after all these years.
Nick
I think the whole PPV ordeal is just one of the many, many things that cut Nash's reign off. After he won it, during the house shows he was either up against Backlund or Bundy. How the hell do you expect him to have a decent match with either of those guys? Then you've got things like Shawn screwing up the Jacknife at WM11, which Nash believes was intentional. Being booked against Sid for a multi-month feud. Then who's he head-lining SummerSlam against? King freaking Mabel. That's just ridiculous. Although I did rush home to watch SummerSlam on ScrambleVision because I had to see that as well as Bret vs Yankem.
So while it may have happened to others, this was just the beginning for Nash and his God-awful run.
There was a lack of good contenders overall for a few years around this time- both Bret & Shawn had to fight guys who weren't World Title level on PPV (Owen was great, but I could never see him with the belt, to say nothing about JEFF JARRETT). Nash was further hamstrung by the big Mabel push, and his own lack of working ability (which was NOT HELPED by booking him only against Monster Heels for a while- when your World Champ is specifically a huge guy, you shouldn't try to undercut him with guys who are bigger and/or more muscular)- even Hogan was a better worker than Nash, and could do the Hogan Formula. Nash had no Nash Formula (except for in his magnificent hair).
ReplyDeleteFurther damaging him was the whole Big Happy Babyface turn he did (ruining the cool, nasty Nash fans were kind of appreciating), and the fact that Shawn was actively undercutting him and putting himself more and more over- Bret calls this out in his book specifically, especially at the 'Mania match.
I'm no Nash fan, but pretty much nobody had a chance around that era- Diesel AND two of the best workers of all-time (Bret & Shawn) failed to drum up much business during this period.
As much as I believe Shawn did a lot of underhanded things to get
ReplyDeletehimself over, I think the WMXI finish was more of an issue with how Nash
performed the jackknife during those days vs. WCW/recently.
Back
then he would get the guy up and sort of hold his arms out away from
his body and drop them in one motion. Now he actually gets them up into
the "crotch/face" position, stabilizing them somewhat before the drop.
I've always thought Shawn screwed up that powerbomb. Another screwed up powerbomb followed the very next night when Sid turned on him.
ReplyDeleteI've never heard talk of sabotage with that Wrestlemania 11 Jack-knife, but it definitely looked terrible. Shawn nearly landed on his feet, which is really strange for a powerbomb, but I think Diesel was somewhat responsible. He threw him off his shoulders to the side rather than staying behind the move. Maybe he was trying to get extra elevation, but instead HBK's lower body came down ahead of the upper.
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to get that commentary off my chest for a long time. Thank you for the forum.
What killed Diesel (to me) in that match was the spot where Shawn cleanly hits the superkick, has the pin, but the ref was tied up in the ropes and unable to count. It stirs up great heat when the face has the pin but there's no ref. But the heel? It made Diesel look like a total loser. Same thing with Savage/Steamboat at WM3. Great, great match but Steamboat not going over cleanly hurt him in my eyes..at the time.
ReplyDeleteThey should have turned Razor Ramon heel. He would have been a credible opponent, and had chemistry with Nash.
ReplyDeleteI will say this...
ReplyDeleteI think Vince wanted Diesel to be a the next Hogan, Sammartino.
Bret was the stop-gap
I also think that Vince knew Diesel was green as goose shit, and could fail at any time so he kept an out, cuz Bret could keep business treading water.
What he didnt realize was that HBK was gonna get over as strong as well.
"In 1992, Savage's first PPV title defense at Summerslam ended in a
ReplyDeletecountout after lots of interference. In 1993, Yokozuna's first PPV
title defense was a countout loss at Summerslam. In 1994, Bret's first
PPV title defense was a DQ loss to Diesel himself at King of the Ring.
And in 1996, Shawn's first PPV title defense ended in a double pin at
Beware of Dog."
My memory of all those title reigns is that they took the title off each of those guys because they didn't like how their reigns were going (with the exception of Michaels, who took the title off himself). Savage was asked to drop the belt back to Flair because they didn't see a future in him at that point, Yoko was asked to drop it to Hogan 2.0 whenever he could be created (and was killing the promotion in the meantime), and Bret was asked to drop the title at Wrestlemania 9 so they could put him over proper later and do a better title reign. So perhaps this guy has given backwards proof that it is better to start reigns off strong, ala Hogan 84, Savage 88, and Hart 94.
Yeah, I was like "WTF? Why did Shawn just jump OVER him!?!"
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the many reasons I find Savage/Steamboat to be over rated. That and the George Steele run in... I know both made storyline sense at the time, but out of context they bring the match below ***** IMO.
ReplyDeleteThe terrible opponents didn't help of course. The biggest issue
ReplyDeletethough was that Diesel was getting over with the fans, but they gave the
belt to him at a house show with no build up or chase to the #1
contendership, just TA DA here's your new champ.
It'd be
like if they gave Austin the belt days after WM13 on a house show, then
expected him to as big of a star as he was the following year.
Man, Shawn's allowed to screw up, but at the same time, knowing what we know about Shawn's attitude those days and him being one of the best sellers (and wrestlers) ever...it raises questions.
ReplyDeleteYou wouldn't think he'd do that to Nash...
ReplyDeleteI know, my gut says it was an accident, but since it's Shawn we're talking about, there's always .000001% chance it wasn't.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that Nash is a worse worker than Hogan. He's a worse SELLER, but his offense is way more credible and his matches have a lot more variety (granted, it usually took a Shawn or Bret to bring it out of him, but still). Motivated Nash was one of the all-time great big guys, even if he didn't show up very often,
ReplyDeleteHere are the two powerbombs:
ReplyDeleteMinute 7:04-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjnmZiw0Opc
Minute 1:42-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi5geLcu9hY
I'm not sure what to think. :-)
i just watch the sid powerbomb and as he goes for the 2nd one you can here vince talking to the production truck. oopsie
ReplyDeleteI believe all this has been established as fact, outside of Bret being a "stop gap."
ReplyDeleteWell, they DID play the entire match on all of their programming the week it happened. Over and over again.
ReplyDeleteKevin didn't get over as a top babyface because he couldn't work the crowd at all, let alone on the level of his peers. Pumping his fist up and down was the extent of Nash's ability to do so. Shawn would point and stomp. Bret would appeal and tease the Sharpshooter, the Undertaker would sit up, Ramon would hop and point at himself.... Nash had nothing.
ReplyDeleteHart 94 is actually one of his examples.
ReplyDeleteI get your point though.
I mentioned in my other post, but if you watch more matches of his back then, he almost always did it in that weird sideways/lackadaisical way during his first entire WWF run.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but nobody took it as bad as Shawn did at 11. It was almost assuredly intentional, especially for someone as good as Shawn was. He went out of his way to get himself over at Nash's expense in that match.
ReplyDeleteNash himself has said he thinks it was intentional but it never hurt their friendship.
ReplyDeleteThey should have never turned him face to begin with.
ReplyDeleteI still think that the RR finish was the right move at the time, jobbing either guy didn't make sense. One thing I've always wondered though, is how the hell is that a draw? Every other match I've seen in my life that ended like that was either a double DQ or a no contest. I know were just talking semantics, but I always found that odd.
ReplyDeleteI doubt two guys screwed up their finishes in back-to-back nights. I also doubt Shawn made mistakes on the same move in back-to-back nights.
ReplyDeleteCan't say I agree there. Razor got over extremely well as a face in summer of '93 after putting over Waltman, and his ensuing IC title run only added to his popularity. By '95 though, after the Jarrett feud concluded, yeah, they could've easily turned him heel.
ReplyDeleteHulk Hogan's first WWF title defense on PPV was a DQ win. Randy Savage's first WWF title defense on PPV (1st title run) was a pinfall loss. Hogan's first WWF title defense on PPV (2nd title run) was a pinfall loss. On the other hand, the Ultimate Warrior's first WWF title defense on PPV was a cage match win. So there's that.
ReplyDeleteNash seems like the type of guy that I would have a beer and shoot the breeze with, but he really was fabulously bad. Nash had nothing.
ReplyDeleteOh, I'm not saying he didn't get over, it's just that Hall never worked as a straight face to me. I liked him as the "cool heel that gets cheered" when he was in the nWo, but not as a face in the WWF. Of course, I naturally always pulled for the heels anyway.
ReplyDeleteShawn's first PPV outing as champ was an all-out war with Diesel, not Bulldog.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, Shawn's first reign as champ was hardly the stuff legends are made of.
...why in the world would you rate a match out of context?
ReplyDeleteI will never understand people who take match rating to THAT extreme.
His other three were a lot worse!
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call it an extreme. There's been exceptions, but generally when I rate a match I just rate the match itself on workrate alone, regardless or the storyline or angle or whatever.
ReplyDeleteI think that Shawn's first reign is actually kinda underrated. The PPV title defenses against Diesel, Vader, and Mankind are all great matches.
ReplyDeleteWhat purpose does that serve though? That's not the whole performance?
ReplyDeleteI probably sound condescending but I'm genuinely curious as to why you would want to separate the angle from the match when discussing how good it was when the goal is to make a match that blows off an angle.
I agree with you, context is very important most of the time. Without context, Punk-Cena at MITB'11 doesn't hit 5* in my book.
ReplyDeleteOn the flipside, the NJPW stuff recently is strictly workrate for most of us that catch one-off matches on youtube, and those kick ass.
I agree. And I think hall and Nash became uber popular thanks to thier real personalities in the nwo. Vince handcuffed them with their characters and typical babyface crap. Look how awful Nash was in his 2011 run--it wasnt his personality or his wit.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Wcw actually booked hall and Nash.better in the.nwo run.
ReplyDeleteBecause I'm a workrate freak, I watch wrestling for the in-ring action, all the angles and what not are kind of secondary to me. Put it this way, my second favorite match ever is HBK/Jarrett from IYH2, just because I'm a huge Shawn fan and I marked the fuck out harder than I ever marked out watching it live. But it's a *** match on it's own merits, there's just WAY too much stalling and fucking around. And there's plenty of absolutely terrible matches I've enjoyed (HHH/Steiner, that match in WCW with the electric chair, I'm looking at you here...), but that doesn't change the fact that they're terrible.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that kinda sad that he would do that to his buddy? Douglas always tells the story how Shawn would talk shit about Nash backstage while he was in the ring. Court Bauer mentioned recently that then old Shawn still lives, but he just doesn't appear as often as the 90s version.
ReplyDeleteNash hated that spot too. He claims he tried to.get Vince to change it but he wouldn't listen.maybe Shawn had Vince's ear for this too. .......
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, definitely, there are PLENTY of matches that don't need (or have) much context and are still incredible.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that the angle makes the match, I'm just saying that if there IS an angle, how well the match MAKES USE of the angle is a big of how good the match is.
Exactly, his second reign ended just as fast as it began, and I don't think he defended the title even once. His third gets the most props because it started with the Screwjob, and you have JR on commentary calling him the greatest WWE Champion of all time in the buildup to his match with Austin.
ReplyDeleteHis fourth... holy shit. What a waste.
You're right.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was thinking. It confuses the hell out of me that now I'm hearing it would do that to his best friend and that Nash himself apparently confirmed it "but it never hurt their friendship." Seriously, if my friend did that to me I would knock his ass out.
ReplyDeleteI've met him, and he is. And I don't think he was that bad during his WWF run, he had great matches in 94 and early 95. It's when he got back to WCW and totally stopped giving a fuck that the got really shitty.
ReplyDeleteI always thought the sabotage was Shawn making sure he got a visual pinfall over Nash.
ReplyDeletePsychology > Workrate, all day every day for me, and often times the angle mixes together with the psychology of the match. I suppose that produces our two differing viewpoints.
ReplyDeleteThe great thing for me was that the Diesel reign happened when I was 12 years old, so I ate that shit up with a spoon. I still remember going to my first WWF event the following year in 1995 and being beyond crazy excited to see Big Daddy vs. Jeff Jarrett as the main event, champ vs. champ. You couldn't tell me nothing about how "horrible" a time it was in the business then.
ReplyDeleteI was *so* fortunate to be a kid during that era.
I would argue that Hogan's first big match as champ was the main event of Wrestlemania, and Savage's first big match as champ was the main event of Summerslam 88. While the titles aren't on the line, they were the showcases that jumpstarted their reigns.
ReplyDeleteI was 15 at the time and nearly gave up on the product after the In Your House 3 BS despite not knowing what the Internet or a Dirt Sheet was. I hated Nash and Hogan's co-reigns-of-doom across all televised wrestling. Maybe I was old enough to be a cynic and things would have been better if I was 12.
ReplyDeleteBret getting the shot at Survivor Series brought me back.
Wouldn't Hogan's first big match as Champ be the War to Settle the Score?
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree that 15-16 would have been the cut-off point for most fans who would have tolerated the kiddie stuff they were pumping out. Once I hit that age I was front and center for Austin, nWo and the Attitude Era, so the business was practically catering to me since birth up until mid-college.
ReplyDeleteI was 7 at the time and I kinda stopped watching because of Diesel's boring reign. Owen Hart and his enzuiguri of death to HBK brought me back.
ReplyDeleteYou could argue that, but I think of it as more of a setup match for the big one. Sort of like a Raw match without an ending that's just trying to sell a Pay Per View.
ReplyDeleteYeah, true that. The 6 man tag where he jobbed to Vader is a fucking great match, too.
ReplyDeleteActually, thinking about it, the match where he dropped the belt to Sid is real good too, actually.
Overall, then, it was alright, on balance. It's just those two Bulldog defences that drag it down. And he fought Goldust in a...dark match at Buried Alive!
Indeed, although the third go around sucking wasn't strictly his fault though (back injury).
ReplyDeleteSavage was actually meant to job the title in his first defence, to Woryah.
ReplyDeleteAnd, actually, Yoko's first PPV title defence was a job to Hogan.
When you don't see it at the time it happens and are seeing it out of context years later the story up until that point is a mystery to you so other than the workrate nothing makes much sense and can take away from it, where had you seen it live it could potentially add to it.
ReplyDeleteI was 14-15 in 96, it was perfect timing.
ReplyDeleteThe matches were good but it was hard for Shawn to not have entertaining matches during that time period. The problem was that business was still sluggish and that's why it's not remembered fondly.
ReplyDeleteBut here's the difference - Diesel was an attempt at creating the next Hulk Hogan. Randy Savage in 1992 was Randy Savage - we know who he is and what he's capable of and his first pay per view title defense was 4 months after he won it. If rumors are to believed the finish was what it was because Warrior balked at a heel turn and the result was the dq finish, which really doesn't hurt Randy Savage because he's still Randy Savage. Yokozuna's a heel - it doesn't matter if he looks weak in his first pay per view title defense because people are paying to see him lose anyway. Bret was already WWF Champion (and well deserving off it) before that second run that ended in the DQ loss to Diesel - which was a DQ meant to set up more Hart Family feuding.
ReplyDeleteThis is Diesel's first title defense after a face turn and title win that the majority of fans didn't see because it was at a house show. He's also going up against Bret Hart, who many fans (and wrestlers) feel is the true champion - if Diesel can't beat Bret it just reaffirms the believe that Diesel's holding onto Bret's title. In the examples listed it's either an established guy (Savage, Hart), or a heel (Yokozuna). Even Shawn (who's first defense was actually against Diesel) had beating Bret clear at Wrestlemania. The Rumble for Diesel wasn't just his first title defense it was his first pay per view outing as the company's top face. In retrospect they should have saved the 8 second Backlund match for pay per view.
Bret was always the stop-gap. He was a reliable guy who was over and believable enough to hold the title but he was never Vince's star. Vince tried to give Hulkamania another go, when that didn't work he tried to recreate Hulkamania with Lex Luger. When that failed he went back to Bret until he was ready to try Diesel, when Diesel failed it was back to Bret until it was time to go with Shawn. Bret Hart was never truly the guy in Vince's mind he was just the guy to hold the title until he found the guy.
ReplyDeleteThe Sid one looks entirely on Sid - he doesn't do it in one motion like a regular power-bomb he kind of throws him up and tries to catch him before dropping him and Shawn falls.
ReplyDeleteAgainst Diesel it looks like Shawn goes up for a routine power-bomb only Nash does his over the shoulder version and where Shawn would normally be sitting on Nash's shoulders with his crotch in Nash's face, Nash throws him over his shoulder to the ground and Shawn's legs go down first. Watch it in slow-motion imaging how Shawn's body would look if he were taking a regular last ride style power-bomb.
In both cases it looks like both guys tries to get cute with how they executed the move. But yeah, it's Shawn.
I've never seen Sid do the power-bomb the way he did to Shawn - I remember that standing out to be when I saw it as a kid. Instead of one motion he throws him up and tries to catch him before dropping him. It's actually probably safer to take because his opponent's whole body is falling flat rather than shoulders/back with the legs to follow.
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard Nash talk about it but in Shawn's book he says that he and Nash fought Vince over that spot because Vince wanted Nash to kick out and 1 and they both felt it would come off as Vince pushing him too hard and the fans wouldn't buy it. Shawn doesn't mention why they would include a spot where the heel would appear to have the match won in the first place though....if Shawn's turning face, it makes sense to make him look good, but according to Shawn the face turn was a last minute decision because of the face reaction he got to that spot.
ReplyDeleteSee, I've always thought that, even though Diesel didn't beat Bret in that match, Bret still put him over. Bret tried really hard throughout that match to make Diesel the Superman Babyface, even working in some heelish tactics and selling some big spots like the moment where Bret dives outside the ring and Diesel catches him mid-air. Diesel even got the Jackknife, which they'd gotten over as a deadly finisher, as the first false finish, which left me with the impression that he could beat Bret. The finish to that match worked for me because it kept Bret strong while leaving no doubt that Diesel was on his level and that Diesel had the ball for the next year. And Diesel wouldn't have dropped that ball if he'd had better heels to work with and if Shawn hadn't turned himself face at Diesel's expense at WMXI.
ReplyDelete"After he won it, during the house shows he was either up against Backlund or Bundy. How the hell do you expect him to have a decent match with either of those guys?"
ReplyDeleteJesus Fucking Christ, please watch some wrestling before 1990.
The concept of "workrate" died with That Board That Should Never Be Named around the time they had their little "sleaze thread" debacle. If it made money and popped a crowd, it doesn't matter how flippy-floppy or "technical" the match was.
ReplyDeleteI think Prime Hogan is a tad better than some people give him credit for, even though he was bad for just sticking to his favourite template. He was certainly less lazy than Nash was generally, though Motivated Nash is much better than Hogan's best.
ReplyDeleteFuck that, it matters to me. And I don't fucking care how much money a match makes, I'm not WWE shareholder. And "workrate" is a lot more than "how flippy-floppy or "technical" the match was".
ReplyDeleteAll those reigns mentioned were not strong or money makers at the gate. So the original thinking is correct IMO.
ReplyDeletePlease elaborate.
ReplyDeleteYokozuna wasn't a draw either, so I'm not sure what the point is there. And Savage' second reign was basically a place-holder, it was his first one that was such a hot run. Nash won the belt at a house show with no build-up or TV/PPV publicity. His first PPV defense was a DQ. He didn't have a strong heel challenger (Shawn wasn't going to win the belt at WM11) and the Hogan-style run of fat monster heels was not believable anymore. I'm hardly a Nash booster, but his title run really didn't have a lot of help going for it at all. I think it was also hard to get behind him as a babyface because he was already the biggest dude around and got over as a badass enforcer-type. The Hogan act wasn't gonna happen and when placed against his only two good opponents (Bret & Shawn), the dynamic favored cheering the smaller guy, just by virtue of fan conditioning.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree on the Nash dynamic. I really believe that if Bret had been champ going into Wrestlemania and Diesel had the dominant win in the Rumble, the combination of momentum and passing the torch would have given Nash a better start. Putting him against Sid was fine because, as shitty as the matches were guaranteed to be, Sid was a convincing heel of similar stature to Diesel. You can have Shawn win the KOTR and challenge at SummerSlam '95 easily enough. Either way, Nash just wasn't going to have a strong heel challenger to make his run work (outside of turning Bret or something). Sometimes timing is everything and time just was not on Diesel's side at that point
ReplyDeleteYeah, some people forget that Diesel really was quite over at the time, even if that didn't really translate to drawing during the down cycle
ReplyDelete"Workrate" is a term invented by and popularized by the "IWC" (Internet Whiners' Club, IMO), who have never been more than 10% of the audience. The other 90% or so are there to be entertained by the show and the stories being told.
ReplyDeleteNash mentions this in his '95 timeline. He basically laughed it off but said that Shawn did do it on purpose because he was simply hell bent on being in the top spot.
ReplyDeleteIt felt like a spur of the moment decision to put the title on Diesel and then they either had second thoughts afterwards or were making things up as they went along, or both.
ReplyDeleteThey could have done the Backlund squash at the Rumble so more eyes see it live. Or they could have had Shawn be his first challenger. Shawn isn't a contender at that point but they have the history and fans want to see Diesel kill him - Diesel kicks off his title reign by crushing Backlund and finally shutting Shawn Michaels up. It felt like they didn't do a lot to build up either Shawn or Diesel before shifting the focus of the company onto them.
Yeah, I think you're right. At least promote Diesel's title shot so you get some eyes on his big win. I'm still of the mind that you have Bret regain the belt from Backlund at Royal Rumble and blow off the brother vs. brother stuff, while Diesel gets a dominant Rumble win and Bret can pass the torch to Nash at Wrestlemania in a face vs. face match. Then you can have Bret vs. Diesel, LT vs. Bigelow, and maybe a Shawn-Razor Ladder re-match (instead of at SummerSlam 95). Owen could start a face turn and face Backlund. Bret puts Diesel over and the Hart Bros can re-unite to go on a tag title run while Nash tries to carry the main event with Shawn and Sid for a while. If it fails, you default back to Bret (like they did anyway) and Bret, Owen, Bulldog can celebrate the big family reunion and title win. Build to Bret-Shawn at WM12.
ReplyDeleteYeah, and every review I've done was written for that 10% of the audience, because they're the ones coming to this site. It's not on Grantland, like where there's anyone else but internet smarks reading it. I don't really see your point here, unless it's that I should feel bad because I watch wrestling because I like to see wrestling matches,.
ReplyDeleteThere is still no such thing as a "smark".
ReplyDelete