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Question:

What is the biggest ratings drop you've given a match from the first time you've seen it to the next time when you've actually had time to really examine the match? For example the first ladder match with Razor and HBK could have gotten 5 stars at the time but after watching it could have gotten a lower rating.
 
Also, was there ever a match that got a ratings INCREASE after you watched it again objectively?

Yeah, I've had a lot that increased, mostly because I would be watching WCW PPVs while I was drunk or pissed off at the company or both, and I really shorted a lot of good matches and then did better reviews later.  My most notable increase would probably be Mankind-UT Hell in a Cell, which was upgraded from one star to four stars.  

I don't generally downgrade stuff that much, although I recall a couple of Wrestlemanias from the Russo era where I gave wacky ratings and corrected them later.  HHH v. Kane from 15 springs to mind, and there was a Chyna tag match from KOTR that year that I gave a ridiculously high rating to originally and then corrected later on.  

I'm sure there's more and I'm sure there's people who keep of this sort of thing for me and could tell you better than me, also.  

Comments

  1. Summerslam 99 main event? I think Scott gave it **** on first viewing and downgraded it pretty harshly since.

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  2. What about Rock/Hogan at WM18? Scott, the jaded smark that he is, only gave it two stars in his initial rant.

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  3. Undertaker - Triple H from Wrestlemania 17 has aged very well.

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  4. Biggest ratings gain I remember is HHH/Taker from WM17 which he initially gave **1/4 and upgraded it too a **** a decade later. Scott probably doesn't remember but I must of sent him three or four emails telling him he got this one wrong, alas a decade later this grievance was sorted out. For me personally felt like an itch that finally got scratched as I'm 100% biased towards WM17 being the greatest show ever.

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  5. That match can be rated all over the place and still be correct. At the time I marked out SUPER hard for that match. They replayed it on Smackdown at the end of the year that year during Christmas break and after I knew what was going to happen, it was a boring match.

    Without the crowd participation and believing that they might actually let Hogan win, the match didn't hold up for me. But I've had people go the complete opposite way; like Scott they crapped on the match at the time but later got into the crowd reaction and the significance.

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  6. If anything, that match goes down in rating. Once you get past the crowd reaction (and once you know how hot the crowd is)...there's not much there.

    The crowd was red-hot...but outside of that it just wasn't that great a match.

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  7. Agreed. Watched the entire show a few weeks ago on a flight. Great match that wwe tried erasing from our memory.

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  8. I know he bashed SuperBrawl 8 pretty bad.


    Then did a Scott Sez and pretty much went up on the whole undercard.

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  9. Im finding the HBK / Taker Wrestlemania saga aging unbelievably well in recent years, which is scary, cause I thought they were damn-near perfect matches to begin with.


    What helps is the amazing storyline continuity, Shawn focused on his "one mistake"--taking too long with a moonsault and getting caught in a tombstone costing him what was otherwise a perfect assault on Undertaker's WM Streak. And he's right, if you watch that match it really seems (kayfabe wise) that Shawn is closer than anyone else at that point to handing Taker his first Wrestlemania loss.


    The storyline continues with Shawn doing anything and everything until he finally gets his rematch (the costing of the title being the final straw), but Taker, realizing Shawn's vulnerable, knows he can get the ultimate trophy, the career of HBK.


    Then, in the rematch, HBK is flat out bested. He throws everything at Taker he can, and Taker's still standing, not beaten. So knowing he's about to retire, and that it's his last moment in a ring, HBK does one more time what he's done so many times throughout his career: entertain and be defiant. He takes Taker's throat gesture and slaps him, goading him into a rare (if never before seen) jumping tombstone.


    The icing on the cake? Shawn has not wrestled a match since.


    Just beautiful stuff all around--the kind of stuff that I'm a fan for. And 3-4 years later I'm still finding little things I didn't notice the first time around.

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  10. I dont know if Scott down graded it but I really dislike the first iron man match now after initially liking it. I think its primarily because the subsequent iron man matches (rock/hhh, brock/angle, hbk/angle, etc) were all better in my opinion. I dont blame Bret or Shawn since wwe has just gotten better at the iron man match formula.

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  11. And I'll go halfway between those opinions. I still enjoy the match years later because I'm still in awe at how hot that crowd was for Hogan. Backrake? Big pop.

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  12. I recall you saying you stiffed Steamboat-Rude the first time around. (And you did.)

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  13. To Scott's credit: No other critic I can think of (in any genre/medium) has done the equivalent of a "Scott Sez." It's good marketing, but it still takes some balls. Kudos.

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  14. I dunno, sometimes, the "wrestling" is secondary. Not often...but sometimes. Like the Andre match at WM3. It's about the moment and the spectacle of it all. Scott said in his rant "Hogan’s backrakes and choking are just not going to provide me with entertainment after months of Angle & Austin suplexing the shit out of each other." I don't share that opinion. He, like many smarks at the time, had too much disdain for Hogan after his WCW years to truly "get" this match.

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  15. Amsterdam_Adam_CurryAugust 28, 2013 at 8:30 PM

    "Scott Sez" is the shit, I really wish someone could talk him into doing more.

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  16. I've always loved that match, especially the chokeslam off the balcony, even though the replay showed Triple H landing safely on a plush cushion.

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  17. Let's see.


    Booker T/Rick Martel went from *** to ***1/4
    Booker T/Saturn *1/2 to ***1/2
    La Parka/Disco Inferno * to ***
    Brad Amrstrong/Golberg NR to 1/2*
    Jericho/Juventud Guerrera **1/2 to ***3/4
    Steve McMichael -* to DUD
    DDP/Benoit ** to ****1/4

    Savage/Luger -** to *

    Steiners/Outsiders DUD to 1/2*
    Sting/Hogan -** to 1/4*


    Can't believe I just spent 15 minutes looking that all up, but I was curious.

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  18. See we're polar opposites on this. I rewatch the match and an bored by it at all. In fact, I'd eagerly anticipate shit like the crowd chanting "Rocky sucks" or JR and the King arguing Hogan's merits, or Hogan hitting the Rock Bottom, and of course the Hulk-up spot (which I hated as a kid, but loved this one time). Any match you've seen before is kinda boring cause you know what's gonna happen. But like I said in my post above...sometimes the actual wrestling is secondary. I'll take this match over Savage/Steamboat anyway. But that's just me.

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  19. Amazing match. Only downside was the world's longest ref bump. Was there a reason they didn't just make the match No DQ instead?

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  20. Meh, I still have disdain and hatred for Hogan, especially late Hogan, so I doubt I'll ever 'get' this match.


    But...to each their own. I think TraitiorAlex is right in saying that it's almost impossible to rate this match - the difference is going to be huge depending on your criteria.

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  21. Yeah, when I watch that match I get the uncontrollable urge to fast forward through the first 30 minutes or so when it was basically nothing but armbars and headlocks.

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  22. I agree. The Foley/UT cell match is tough to rate too. Same with ECW matches.

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  23. Steve McMichael managed to wrestle himself into negative stars? That's oddly impressive.

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  24. I just watched this during a flight delay on Sunday for the first time in years. It deserves 4 stars.

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  25. Ugh people are still going on with that? They never said they'd never faced each other before, HHH even specifically mentioned it the night after 27. They just didn't really need to address it. People forget, that match is memorable because it was a good match on a great card. There was no storyline at all going on there, just a busywork match between two guys with nothing else to do. Had the match sucked it'd have been forgotten anyway. What's the point in mentioning it, other than to scratch the mental itch of people who obsess on this shit? Same as all that "they should say Bray Wyatt is Husky Harris" nonsense. It doesn't improve anything to over explain.

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  26. This is why I always preferred the NWA's method of simply saying that title matches had a 60 minute time limit. It wasn't portrayed as an Iron Man match and thus, it was more unpredictible as the pin could come at any time. Of course, Flair would go the full 60 many times, but it still left a certain air of surprise.

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  27. What was the quickest turnaround? Didn't the Rumble that Sheamus won get nudged back from ***** within the week?

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  28. I think he openly admitted being (something that impaired his best judgement) during that entire event a few days later...

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  29. Triple H smashed Undertaker's motorcycle and bloodied him before the PPV.

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  30. It was actually not a bad "storyline" for such a quick build.


    HHH claims the ring as his place... UT tells him "your ring... is in the middle of my yard". The two take whatever shots they can at each other, the most memorable being Steph held high on a balcony by Kane, and UT telling Regal either he gets HHH at WM, or Steph takes a fall.


    Just two top guys wanting to see who's better.

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  31. Yeah, it was one of those things that didn't really need a storyline. Top Guy A says he's great. Top Guy B says, no way, I'm better. They have a match.


    I like that formula better than what they tried to do with Rock/Cena the first time.

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  32. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryAugust 28, 2013 at 9:38 PM

    It was good to see Scott come to his senses about the Taker/Mankind HIAC. That's still one of the most jaw-dropping things I've seen in any media.

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  33. My favorite was his reply: "Your yard... is in the middle of MY WORLD!"

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  34. One that sticks out to me is the Mania 2000 Hardcore Battle Royal.

    I liked the hardcore stuff for a while in 2000, especially all the 24/7 and comedy stuff, and even I thought that sucked. Think Scott went from *** to 1/4* or something similar.

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  35. The Love-Matic Grampa!August 28, 2013 at 10:20 PM

    I don't really rate matches, but I will say that HHH/HBK from Summerslam '02 doesn't hold up for me. Watching it live, thinking it really was Shawn's "last hurrah" and knowing (or rather, thinking that I knew) how f'ed up his back was, I literally cringed at every bump he took and popped big for his comeback. I remember thinking it was the gutsy performance I'd ever seen, and the perfect way to end a career (before the HHH beatdown, but in a strange way even that played into the story, with heel bastard Hunter getting the last laugh on the one man he could never really best).


    Then HBK came back in a few weeks and wrestled for close to a decade. Yeah.

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  36. I love Scott Sez as well.

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  37. Couldnt agree more. The whole format of those nwa matches are better then the iron mans. Better psychology, format, etc. Guess its not as "gimmicky" which I think is what vince was looking for in the "iron mans"

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  38. I couldn't fathom how Scott gave Taker/HHH from WM28 five stars. I guess with 'epic' you either get into it or you don't. To me, it was the ultimate HHH self-indulgence.

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  39. I still keen more towards ". it wasn't a match, it was a stunt show.

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  40. Yeah if I remember, he saw it in a theater and was caught up by a hot crowd that colored his judgment.

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  41. There's no wristlocks, but it told a story.

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  42. Never said it didn't. it's just not a story I found appealing. But it's been a while, maybe I would feel differently now.

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  43. That had to be one of the most boring matches of the 90s. I remember sitting in the bar watching it and being bored beyond belief. Non stop armbars, and yet no one goes for an arm submission. One of the worst Iron Man Matches ever, as opposed to the best one, Rude/Steamboat from WCW Beach Blast 92.

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  44. The first time seeing the HIAC match it was amazeballs, but we've seen the replay so many times it's lost it's impact. Foley's first fall of the cell the entire place I was in everyone just stopped dead, thinking Foley had been killed. The second one was just as amazing. I rewatched it on the HIAC DVD the other day and it wasn't as impressive now. Maybe we've been jaded by all the other crazy shit that happened after it.

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  45. .....I'm lost. Wrong post?

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  46. I agree. As a match I did like it, but the HIAC environment was absolutely unnecessary.



    The PG era makes Hell in a Cell matches so unnecessary as they are nothing more than a lumberjack match at this point(minus the wrestler beatdowns), meaning that the competitors just cant leave ringside.


    IMO, the last great hell in a cell match was Taker/Edge @ Summerslam 2008. I cant believe we have sat thru 10 HIAC matches since then.


    Blood isnt a make or break for me, but these matches just are not brutal anymore.

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  47. yeah posted in the wrong place. Posting from my phone doesn't work well...

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  48. It goes beyond needing to be a technically sound match. It had story telling, incredible bumps, and really kicked off an era.

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  49. I'm assuming it's because they were going to announce the title match was No DQ right before that match started, so that's why they didn't want to have 2 big No DQ matches.

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  50. I couldn't disagree with you more. My HHH hatred at the time kind of blinded me to how awesome that match was. I respected Michaels' performance, but I kind of hated HHH the character so much that it took me out of it. Watching it again recently, holy god, I forgot what a great brawl that match was.

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  51. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryAugust 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM

    The impact hasn't been lost on me since I first saw it live. As Patrick Burke and statfreak mention below, it's one of the best stories I've seen told in a ring. The bumps isn't what makes it great (but probably what makes it memorable) but that Foley's insistence on continuing the match instantaneously carves his legend of the insane and indestructible Mick Foley, who has his insides turned to mush and still came back from more against The Undertaker. The genuine passion and concern from Jim Ross, the iconically scary images (the one that sticks with me isn't the second bump itself, but the ringside officials and Terry Funk who immediately swarm Foley), and the fact that Foley still stands and refuses to stay down...it's one of those perfect-storm stories like Punk/Cena MITB 11 or Austin/HBK WMXIV where the narrative told in the ring is timelessly effective.

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  52. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryAugust 29, 2013 at 11:10 AM

    I think that was the last match that I hadn't hit my currently level of disdain for him, since IIRC, he was handed the Big Gold Belt on RAW in the next week or so when Brock went to SD full-time, and thus began the Reign of Terror. But yeah, he and HBK had a terrific brawl that felt like a fight.

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  53. I never said it didn't have a story. The 'art' of wrestling involves two guys making it look like they're about to kill each other while in reality they minimize the danger. I know it's not ballet, but seeing Mick Foley almost kill himself for our pleasure is not something I personally enjoy. You can have good brawls and great bumps without risking paralysis.

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  54. I never said it didn't have a story. "Mick Foley Barely Avoids Being In a Wheelchair For The Rest Of His Life" is not a story I am interested in.

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