Scott,
1. In 1990, WCW/NWA finally got the chance to put the world title on Sting, putting him over Ric Flair at Great American Bash of that year. Sting fought through the Horsemen, then lost a WarGames match to them in early 1991. Then they transitioned to the Flair-Fujinami program for the world title, with Sting & Luger challenging the Steiners for the tag titles. Clearly the Flair-Fujinami stuff was in place to draw for the SuperShow in Japan and for the first SuperBrawl. Flair's premature departure (without dropping the belt to Lex Luger at GAB'91) or not, it was going to be Lex Luger getting the belt back, not Sting. Did WCW have less faith in Sting as their top guy? Or did they just have a long-term plan of doing heel Luger vs. face Sting at SuperBrawl II? It seemed odd that they wouldn't get the belt back to Sting after the Fujinami vs. Flair stuff played out.
Sting was a HUGE flop as champion, and yes, they lost all faith in him as a result of the Black Scorpion stuff. And yes, I know it wasn't his fault and it had more to do with Ole Anderson, but really even from the start of that reign it was apparent that fans were more interested in the chase than the payoff. They pretty much had to have "Scorpion" lose at Starrcade to pay off the whole mess, but they were taking that belt off Sting as soon as humanly possible after that (about two weeks after, in fact).
2. Before Hogan's arrival in 1994, WCW appeared to be going a bit retro-NWA, with Flair taking the title back from Vader at Starrcade '93 and rekindling the Steamboat feud in '94. With Steve Austin's star on the rise, Sting and Vader still in the mix, and a less-cartoonish product seemingly coming back, where do you think WCW goes if Hogan never arrives? Without Hogan and his buddies Brutus, Duggan, Orndorff, HTM, etc coming in, WCW obviously doesn't become as mainstream, but what do you think happens with the product long-term without the influx of WWF guys?
I think they go belly-up or shrink drastically into a TNA-level syndicated non-powerhouse, taking WWE castoffs to survive. The Bischoff hail mary pass of Monday Nitro saved the company and the Hogan heel turn sent it into the stratosphere, but WWE was just not going to be denied in the long run.
I don't think WCW ever had faith in Sting ever again as champion, the only times he got the strap was a short-term place holder for the next big heel run. Some guys are suited to be champions others are better served to chase, I'd put Sting and The Rock in those positions.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if WWE sees Undertaker in that same light. Considering he's been a top star in the company for more than 20 years, 7 world title wins and not one memorably long reign (at least not that I can recall) is kind of low.
ReplyDeleteHis reign in 1997 was pretty good and was his longest length-wise. Mania to Summerslam with good matches against Mankind, Austin, Vader, and Bret.
ReplyDeleteI get what you mean though. Aside from that one, he's never had lengthy reigns.
Sting should have been the Black Scorpion; it's so obvious in hindsight. The Black Scorpion could have come out for their cage match at Starrcade, in a mask, and said that he'd already taken care of Sting and we wouldn't be seeing him again. Just as he was awarded the title by forfeit Luger comes out to find out what happened to his friend and get revenge. The Black Scorpion offers Luger a match in Sting's place and they fight. Just as Luger gets the Scorpion in the rack, the Scorpions minions hit the ring and attack Luger until he's vulnerable enough for the Scorpion to apply the Black Scorpion Deathlock. Luger is forced to submit due to the beating he's just taken. Then the Scorpion props him in the corner and unmasks, revealing that he's Sting in black face paint. And Kevin Sullivan or Gary Hart or some other evil mentor comes down to stand by his side. There's the Anakin to Vader turn, setting up a heel run which eventually leads to the Faceturn of the Jedi down the line, which would have gotten Sting mega over.
ReplyDeleteKind of stupid, admittedly, but still probably more interesting than 'it was Flair all along'.
He got a lengthy run with the World Title a few years back where he had some great matches against the likes of Rey.
ReplyDeleteBut Taker is different to Sting, during the majority of his career he was promoted as a unique attraction so he was rarely in the title fold other than the odd PPV here and there. Kinda like Andre back in the 70's and 80's, he was a special draw based on who he was and thus seemingly it seemed silly to put the belt on him when it could be put to better use else where.
Oh yeah that's right. That was a pretty awesome title reign too. Love the match against Rey.
ReplyDeleteThe Black Scorpion thing was akin to what Bischoff said about the Higher Power angle.
ReplyDeleteIt had to be Flair because Sting vs. Flair is all they've got.
Since this is a thread about random NWA questions I'll throw one out. Let's say one desires to watch the TV shows from 1985 for example. What was NWA's main TV show at the time? I mainly see World Championship Wrestling and World Wide. Are they the same level or was one a rehash type show?
ReplyDeleteSecond question shows why TNA has so much problems to compete with WWE. I mean, WCW had Sting, Flair, Vader, Austin, Pillman, Rhodes, Steamboat, Steiners etc.. but even Hogan and his buddies didn't bring it. Only when Hogan turned heel and they got two of WWFs biggest current generation stars, the ratings went to the sky.
ReplyDeleteAnd that shows how much TNA actually has to spend to get at least on par with WWE. They need the biggest Star of the past Generation (Austin or Rock or HHH) and they need two of their current gen stars (Like Orton, Punk, even Batista, Sheamus, Del Rio, Cena). And even then it isn't guaranteed, that it works...
The World Championship Wrestling show was the Saturday night TBS show. Which was a small studio show. The Worldwide show was a syndicated show which was from an arena. Both had angles and top matches at times. I personally liked the Worldwide show better. It had a better atmosphere than a small studio. I will say the interviews were better on the TBS show though.
ReplyDeleteThe more interesting question is what happens if Sting never blows out his knee at the Clash in January. He wins the title at Wrestlewar obviously but more interesting is that Luger never turns face. Prior to the rushed face turn Lex was molten as a heel. Do we then get a hot Sting vs Luger program over the next few months, and if that happens does that mean we never see the Black Scorpion angle?
ReplyDeleteI liked it when he explained why he was targeting the title at that point. He wanted it so that people would have to come after him so he could take their souls.
ReplyDeleteAnd if that happens does that mean we never get Wrestlecrap?
ReplyDeleteI think with WCW/NWA back then, probably all the way up until Hogan came in and they started trying to cajole more WWE fans by changing their programming style, the crowds were just not confitioned to know what to do with face champions. All throughout the 80's to mid-90's, their style was always to have a dominant heel champ on top and an endless series of underdog face challengers with a chase to get invested in. The exception to this rule was the occasional face title reign with Flair, but that's what proved the rule...Flair was always the only accepted reigning face. WCW/NWA activeily conditioned their product to always be about a chase, as opposed to Vince's style which was to have Hogan on top with a challenge to face. You got invested in The Challenge instead of The Chase with them.
ReplyDeleteIf Sting never blew he knee out, it's possible the workable shift that could have occurred was the players shifting with Sting & Luger becoming the Flair & Dusty of the 90's, if you weeeeeell. Luger was hitting his heel stride indeed in 1990 and could have taken the reigns from Flair and given Sting The Chase to invest in according to their style.
We still had The Gooker my man...we still had The Gooker.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea but it's a little contradictory because Sting wrestled the Black Scorpion.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a coincidence that the most success WCW saw was when it had a consistent guy at the top with a singular vision (Bischoff). WWE has always had the advantage of having Vince run it.
ReplyDeleteTNA's problem is the constant revampings and schizophrenic booking. Their problem has always been thinking they can compete with the WWE immediately (and by immediately I mean within six months). If TNA had a five year plan to use the older stars from other promotions to get over a younger generation of stars and create compelling, consistent tv (obviously, you can't plan for everything because of injuries and unexpected hot streaks, but you can have long-term plans) they could compete in the next five years.
I honestly think Wrestlecrap looks horribly outdated now with the low res animated .gifs and the table etc... maybe that's just me...
ReplyDeleteAll throughout the 80's to mid-90's, their style was always to have a
ReplyDeletedominant heel champ on top and an endless series of underdog face
challengers with a chase to get invested in.
Did that change with the nwo? Until Russo came back in April of 2000 (it gets mucked up but his initial run wasn't a disaster) that was still the formula.
Didn't know that wrestlecrap was still around?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm big on not fixing what ain't broke. And honestly, if he cut out all the excess shit that no one cares about anyway he could put his archives back up. I can't imagine he's still selling loads of archive disks anyway.
ReplyDeleteWell that was after they tried having Hogan on top as a face for 2 years, in a blatant "copy everything WWE did with him" move. And while it proved an initial ratings spike, eventually it flopped...only when they reverted back to their original heel champion formula with the nWo did they see success again.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't think his heart is in it anymore and hasn't been since the initial time he took it down (maybe even since his friend killed himself who knows) and is just doing it to make some dollars... nothing wrong with that I guess (Capitalism FTW) but I think it has affected the quality quite a bit.
ReplyDeleteHis friend killed himself all the way back in like 2001 right? That's a long time to keep something around you don't care about but I guess it helps pay the bills.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I really like this idea.
ReplyDeleteYeah I used to read WrestleCrap a bunch in 2002/2003 and really loved the mailbag but once he switched from the mailbag to "RD's Ramblings" or something like that, I stopped reading. Didn't he stop watching WWE at some point anyway? I used to love the hell out of that place when I was getting into the height of my smarkdom.
ReplyDeleteYeah...but it brings back some nice memories from when I was 15 and transitioning out of markdom. Probably the first smart site I read on a regular basis, oddly enough.
ReplyDeleteSting fell victim to the fact that the NWA/WCW fans were just not use to the faces going over and didn't know how to get behind a babyface champion. This is why the Luger decision of 1988 is still so head scratching. I don't give a shit if Luger was a big jackass backstage or not, the fans wanted to see him win at the GAB and he didn't and then he didn't win at Starrcade and that killed it for any similar style superhero champion that was to follow.
ReplyDeleteAdd to that the company has changed what it wants to be about every two years. The Jarrett years were basically a traditional southern promotion with some WCW thrown in. They briefly tried to be the "Wrestling" company when Joe came in and had his streak. Then Dixie took over and it became about being WWE Jr. with different ways of approaching that depending on who had the book.
ReplyDeletePeople having different and/or personal reasons for wanting to be champion is something that's a little lacking.
ReplyDeleteDuring Orton's title run in late 2007, the storyline seemed to be building to Orton only wanting the title as bait to cause people misery. He was always willing to get in these intense, violent rivalries with people and then just cheap out in the big title match.
And then he had that toddler tantrum thing instead, which would have also been interesting if they had played it as a legitimate instead of "Ha ha, I'm a bad guy!"
But to the point, I don't really know why anyone in WWE wants to be champion.
CM Punk didn't seem to WANT to be champion, he just seemed to like that it was something he could rub in people's faces. That's fine and dandy, but why the hell does John Cena want to be champion? Or ADR?
Or anyone in the Shield for that matter.
I like it. Basically Crow Sting before Crow Sting.
ReplyDeleteADR = DESTINY
ReplyDeleteHis destiny to be a more talented, less over version of JBL.
ReplyDeleteI remember him going on incessantly about his destiny to memetic levels, but that isn't really a reason though...wait.
That really is the only thing they've ever used as his reason, isn't it?
I heavily disagree with #2. WCW, unlike TNA, did have a positive image pre-NWO, even if they were a slightly unprofitable company.
ReplyDeleteIf Turner can keep WCW OUT of the Turner-Time Warner-AOL sales, I'd give it better than a 50/50 chance at modern survival. It'd still be #2, but a much more stable/solid #2. (Also, not having WCW go down the tank with Hogan and Friends might have even made a Time Warner/AOL sale survivable, depending on who takes over.)
But keeping Hogan out of WCW changes SO MUCH MORE... hell, maybe WCW and WWE still have their little war, but it never gets near the level of fame it now has.
Call it one of Sting's friends helping him with the deception.
ReplyDeleteMega-Heel Sting might not have gotten knifed or started riots... but I could see the level of hatred being sky-high.
"I think with WCW/NWA back then, probably all the way up until Hogan came
ReplyDeletein and they started trying to cajole more WWE fans by changing their
programming style"
They tried cajoling to WWE fans several times before Hogan came in - they just weren't very good at it.
WCW did have a revolving door of executive directors and bookers - which is part of why it's so hard to answer a question like this. If Hogan doesn't come in, does Bischoff get turfed sooner - and if so who replaces him? And then who replaces his replacement?
I'm hoping him turning on Ricardo will help cement him being consistently over as a heel. To be honest he's been getting pretty great heat over the last few months anyway. He's much too talented a wrestler (IMO) to give up on.
ReplyDeleteHe drew some some good heat for the beatdown on Ricardo. I hope he can keep it up. Being a genuine (not ironic) heel would be a breath of fresh air.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't know how much trouble TNA is in but I think the worst thing they can do is go into survival mode.
ReplyDeleteIf they don't cut ties with Hogan I'd hardball him in negotiations. I actually liked the story they were doing with Austin Aries last summer even though I'm not a fan of the guy in the ring. I think you try to position yourself as the alternative to the WWE and see where you can go from there. The goal shouldn't be competing with the WWE in a year, it should be in five years.
Truthfully I think Justin Henry is more the main guy over there now. I dunno I stopped going there.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand Scott saying if it wasn't for Bischoff miraculous nWo angle, WCW would always be the distant second promotion. WWF was not the same beast as it is today, back then the promotion was cold, business was down and fans were clamoring for a change, which at the time WWF weren't ready to give them.
ReplyDeleteWCW wasn't anything special either, which was why both promotions were sort of at the same level. Sure WWF was probably a little more over before the Monday Night Wars, but it wasn't by much, and WCW probably did better business in some territories over WWF.
The only thing that is for certain is that if it wasn't Bischoff waging war on Vince, then Vince wouldn't have been movitated to taking risks and changing the direction of his company.
I suppose when you're fanning the flames of hell, reaping wayward souls, fighting off long-lost homicidal relatives, and protecting a sacred urn, a title belt isn't high on your list of priorities.
ReplyDeleteI initially referred to him as JB El since he was coming ringside in a car.
ReplyDeleteWrestlecrap served a great purpose in 2000-2001. Nowadays it's hard to envision an Internet without Youtube or DailyMotion, but that was the case back then. Further, there was almost no '80s wrestling on DVD yet, official or otherwise. For a lot of us who missed it the first go-round, Wrestlecrap was our first time actually, visually, seeing things like the Ding Dongs or Phantasio or Arachniman. A lot of those things existed only in message board or RSPW talk, or in old show reviews.
ReplyDeleteNow Phantasio's one match is likely online somewhere and if you know where to look you can find entire seasons of wrestling shows for download or for sale. There was still some good stuff afterward as RD scrounged up some truly obscure shit (like "Needles" the midget tailor who worked on wrestlers' gear, some oddball Coliseum Video bit) but that well seems to have dried up also.
The "rank' of NWA programming wasn't always as neat as the WWF (which generally went Superstars->Prime Time-.>Challenge). The Saturday night show and Worldwide were kind of even but big things also happened on NWA Pro, like the Cornette/Garvin fireball and the Baby Doll heel turn.
ReplyDeleteThere was always a possibility of someone other than Bischoff challenging Vince. Eric was the right guy at the right time though, that I will agree on.
ReplyDeleteI can imagine Taker wandering around the locker room asking anyone if they wouldn't mind having their souls taken and then forlornly sitting in the corner when no one agrees.
ReplyDeleteFair point. I think every champion rises/falls in some measure due to their competition. They need viable opponents to validate their reigns. I think that's why guys like Sting and Diesel had little chance of being big financial successes on top
ReplyDeleteYeah, exactly. I don't know who they could have realistically gotten to fill that role.
ReplyDeleteFair point. As big as Taker's "streak" matches have been in recent years, the guy was never The Guy or a top draw in any sense in his prime
ReplyDeleteThey were very close, during the first Impact with Hogan, Bischoff, Hall, Nash etc.. and before that with the Main Event Mafia. After that, they went away each week a little more.
ReplyDeleteI think without Hogan and Co going to WCW, we would have gotten Hogan vs Savage at Wrestlemania 13 or 14 instead of Austin vs Hart or Austin vs Michaels, with Jim Duggan and Brutus Beefcake in the Co Main Event...;) ... and a big Dungeon of Doom Stable with Isaac Yankem, Adam Bomb, Crush, Razor Ramon and Diesel or so. ;)
ReplyDeleteI don't know how much Taker would've drawn as the top guy, but I could see that if Vince wanted wrestling to be accepted as more legitimate in the eyes of mainstream media and the public, having such a "fake" character as The Undertaker as your top guy doesn't work. Austin, Rock, HHH, Bret and Michaels all made more sense as "real" people.
ReplyDeleteClose to what?
ReplyDeleteTo the Smackdown ratings. ;) And to WWE quality. Maybe they have bigger arenas now, but for me the first show with Hogan, was the pinnacle of TNA.
ReplyDeleteTo each their own. It was like popping in a 1997 tape of Nitro
ReplyDeleteAnd they are IMO still better, than most of the RAW shows of the last decade. :)
ReplyDeleteIf there would be a company today making 97 like Nitro shows, with the same star power, WWE would go down as fast as they nearly did back then.
1997 was probably the wrong year, it was more like 1999. And it had none of the things that made WCW great. The problem with TNA is that it tried to be a pale imitation of the wwe.
ReplyDeleteThey can be more, because they have not that PG family friendly direction. They just need more current stars, because they can be as good as they want, it nobody knows them...
ReplyDeleteThey need to make stars. The biggest current stars are washed up. I didn't want to watch Hogan in 2005, I really don't want to watch him in 2013.
ReplyDeleteThey can't make stars, because nobody is watching their show! You first have to be popular and THEN you can think about making new stars. You don't get new fans with pushing nobodys to the top.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE wasn't popular when they started pushing new guys. You get new fans by making entertaining, original programming. TNA isn't doing that and if they follow your idea they won't.
ReplyDeleteWWF is popular since the 80s and even in 1997, when they pushed Austin, the ratings weren't that high, but everybody KNEW the WWF. They just watched Nitro, because it was more interesting. In 98, Nitro got stale and they switched to RAW. TNA is not the WWF in 97 - they are more like WCW in 1995. They have some old WWF guys and some new guys, but they are lacking the Cenas and Ortons.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Flair puts Austin over in a '94 feud? Austin-Sting after that? Austin-Savage in '95? Luger returned later in '95 too. I think Austin could have been huge in WCW, but by no means Stone Cold huge.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I stopped watching from about '93 to early '98. I remember watching WCW and saying, "Wow, it's all the old WWF guys...wearing black?"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. Taker was always a decent complementary character but he was very cartoonish. His feuds pretty much existed in a vaccuum, with the goofball monsters, fat guys, and one-off villains coming and going.
ReplyDeleteAt least the nWo was a a little bit more interesting than BULLSHIT like: King Mabel, Savio Vega, Skip, The Goon, TL Hopper, The Roadie, Rockabilly, The Godwinns, Sparky Plugg, The Sultan, Mantaur, Isaac Yankem, Duke The Dumpster and so on...
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about 1998, but you're surely right about that '95-'96 period.
ReplyDeleteOk, 98 was different, because the WWF WAS cooler and so the ratings turned around.
ReplyDeleteThere was another one-hour syndicated show in addition to World Wide that wasn't the TBS Saturday night show, but I don't remember the name. Both were on back-to-back here in Chicago. Of the two, I think World Wide got the lion's share of the cool stuff, like the episode given entirely to a Flair/Windham match.
ReplyDelete