"What if" time mofos. The Kliq was such a vortex of politics, destruction, and talent that they completely changed the fortunes of two wrestling companies in the mid 90s. I have a tough time picking the most plausible scenario for this one, due to the unpredictability and political power of Nash, Hall, and HBK at the time. I'll be interested in what you guys have to say on it...
What if Nash and Hall never jump to WCW in 1996?
Things to consider:
- The power of the Kliq in the WWE, especially during 95-96. The Kliq essentially had free reign on the main event scene, a significant say on the pushs/burials of others, and an overall voice in the direction of business.
- Do Hall, Nash, and HBK lead the WWE into the Attitude Era instead of Austin? Does the Attitude Era ever happen without the NWO/WCW pushing the WWE into it out of necessity? Do guys like Austin, Mankind, and the Rock ever get put into prominent roles with the Kliq around doing Kliq things?
- Does business continue to stay down with The Kliq at the top of the card, or was that just a cyclical downturn in business?
- What happens to Bret Hart? Does he concede the WWE "civil war" to the Kliq, cut his losses and jump to WCW? Is he a main event "top guy" success in WCW without Nash and Hall there?
- The unintended consequence on Hulk Hogan. Hogans career was in the dumpster in WCW during 95-96. If the Outsiders/NWO never happens, what happens to Hogan? Does his career just fade away? Does he eventually turn heel out of necessity, and to what success?
- Does WCW ever reach a competitive level with the WWE without Nash and Hall? Did Uncle Eric have enough money, vision, and innovation to compete at the highest level without the NWO? Would he have found another money angle or was the NWO just a case of "a dead clock being correct twice a day" in regards to Bischoff?
There are numerous other things to consider. Just a jumpoff point. Go nuts.
What if Nash and Hall never jump to WCW in 1996?
Things to consider:
- The power of the Kliq in the WWE, especially during 95-96. The Kliq essentially had free reign on the main event scene, a significant say on the pushs/burials of others, and an overall voice in the direction of business.
- Do Hall, Nash, and HBK lead the WWE into the Attitude Era instead of Austin? Does the Attitude Era ever happen without the NWO/WCW pushing the WWE into it out of necessity? Do guys like Austin, Mankind, and the Rock ever get put into prominent roles with the Kliq around doing Kliq things?
- Does business continue to stay down with The Kliq at the top of the card, or was that just a cyclical downturn in business?
- What happens to Bret Hart? Does he concede the WWE "civil war" to the Kliq, cut his losses and jump to WCW? Is he a main event "top guy" success in WCW without Nash and Hall there?
- The unintended consequence on Hulk Hogan. Hogans career was in the dumpster in WCW during 95-96. If the Outsiders/NWO never happens, what happens to Hogan? Does his career just fade away? Does he eventually turn heel out of necessity, and to what success?
- Does WCW ever reach a competitive level with the WWE without Nash and Hall? Did Uncle Eric have enough money, vision, and innovation to compete at the highest level without the NWO? Would he have found another money angle or was the NWO just a case of "a dead clock being correct twice a day" in regards to Bischoff?
There are numerous other things to consider. Just a jumpoff point. Go nuts.
1. Yes, and No
ReplyDelete2. Stays down, as people get sick of the Kliq
3. The Goblin fades away.
4. Nope, and Goldberg is a retired NFL player.
The only thing I can say for certain: If WWF still trends towards Attitude, there will be a few guys going south. Most of them Harts or related to Harts.
ReplyDeleteThe Kliq might begin the Attitude Era sooner than it actually did, BUT without the "straight" guys to play off of (Harts) it might not take off as well as it did. Also, where does McMahon fall into this narrative? Does Mr. McMahon have a reason to exist?
Business probably levels off at this point, but the rise will likely be much slower.
Hogan can still turn heel, but he'll be facing a much steeper climb without Hall and Nash to make his run "legit". And it'll be easier for the WCW mainstays to resist his power plays... just threaten to walk out en masse.
Bischoff might survive to sign the Harts/relatives, but someone else would need to help Eric book them... Hart Foundation vs Horsemen to start. Eric and "traditional wrestling" never really meshed well. Go from there.
On a side note... the Guest Booker where Hall and Nash go to ECW... not happening. That's no more than a pipe dream, unless McMahon suddenly gets the urge to kill ECW.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't think there would have been an Attitude era if not for the NWO. Bischoff has stated that he had the idea from the similar Japanese angle, so maybe they run the angle with someone else. But if the NWO isn't successful as it was, who knows if the WWF even goes TV-14. For the longest time, the WWF prided itself on being the family/kid friendly version of pro wrestling, as it does again today. The fact is the WWF was in serious danger in 1995-1996 and knew that once the NWO became a hit, it had to do one better.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I guess my point is that if Hall and Nash don't got to WCW, there may not have been an Austin/McMahon or a Montreal. In fact, pro wrestling on a national scale may have dwindled back to syndication deals or WCW on TBS may have won the day.
The thought that just ran through my head is that Th
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with all this. Just amazes me that two guys changed the entire direction of the industry for a time period.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of a nuclear war scenario...Nobody wins and eventually everyone loses in a zero sum game. Nash and Hogan are large nuclear weapons with the intent to just destroy everything. There might be some truth to this..
ReplyDeleteAges ago, there was a site called "the 1-2-3 kid fan site" back in the mid-90s that posted a bunch of "rumors" involving a drawn out situation that involved 1-2-3, Razor, HHH, Shawn Michaels, and Diesel feuding with each other for the better part of 6 months. I thought this site was ludicrous for two reasons:
ReplyDelete1) Who is *that* big of a superfan of the 1-2-3 kid?
2) W.T.F. was with this HHH being involved with these other four guys? What do they even have to do with each other? (This is *well* before the Kliq's existence was widely known)
Originally I thought it was just someone else's bizarre fanfic but in the years since I've figured whoever it was that wrote that site had heard things from one of the 5, hence why the posting.
It's funny - I never heard the terms "babyface" or "heel" until about 1998. Thanks to PWI and the other Apter mags, it was always "fan favorite" and "rulebreaker".
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree - Hart was always such a goof creep heel manager that seeing the same act as a face was pretty silly.
If you're not a fan of the Kliq, or if you're Bret Hart, it's probably not good news, but all of them have great minds for "the business" and they were the guys who saw the more realistic/adult product coming before it did. A lot of the ideas that made the nWo unique came from Hall and Nash, HBK/HHH were behind DX, even Nash's anti-authority Diesel character came before Steve Austin.
ReplyDeleteBut, without Hall and Nash's ideas helping to take WCW to #1, Vince likely keeps ignoring the requests to go in a more adult direction and we just get 1995 for as long as he can get away with it. Less Stone Cold, more Savio Vega.
WCW remains Hulk Hogan's play toy until his contract is up and they can't agree on a number. Then it becomes Bret Hart's play toy as him and Ric Flair carry each other to classic matches and blame the other for them not drawing.
I remember Bret ragging on Shawn for saying he was going to work with 1-2-3 Kid and Triple H when he was WWF Champion, and thinking Bret's just exaggerating because even Shawn would have known he couldn't work with those two as WWF Champion...but on the new Triple H DVD he confirms he was not only supposed to win the King of the Ring, but be Shawn's summer feud. I mean, I don't know if feuding with Triple H is any worse than feuding with the British Bulldog but the main event of Summerslam seems like a stretch. That would have tanked.
ReplyDeleteIf there X Division was solid or they were looking to put over fresh, unknown talent, he could be a job guy but that is all I can really see out of him in TNA.
ReplyDeleteYep, the 1-2-3 kid in the World title picture was the thing that totally stuck out to me back then too. In what universe would that ever be considered credible?! Of course hindsight...
ReplyDeleteits even got a little pudge :-( seems a bit ridiculous seeing how everyone else looks to be rendered in the best shape of their careers.
ReplyDeleteThe whole new talent initiative might not be the worst thing for the company. Just off the top of my head, they could pick up Jigsaw/Rorschach, ACH, Scorpio Sky, and Adam Cole for the X Division, while picking up Tomasso Ciampa, Brian Cage, and Harry Smith for the heavyweight division. Also maybe Willie Mack for the bizarre negative charisma he displays that actually ends up making him entertaining. The fact that they've never brought Shelton Benjamin even on a short-term deal boggles my mind. The guy is basically a non-hillbilly replica of AJ Styles.
ReplyDeleteThey can't find anything better for CM Punk & Daniel Bryan than a tag match with the Wyatts....but they will bring John Cena and Rey Mysterio back while still injured.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be fun to be Jimmy Hart.
ReplyDeleteI'm not surprised. They think they're product is better and more integral to society than anything else, only makes sense they think people will pay more to have it.
ReplyDeleteIf they throw in WM with the network it'll be the biggest mistake they ever made. They'll get a ton of subscriptions that month, and then everyone will cancel the second WM is over.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe they'll get 2 million buys for WM, but the majority of them will be for $10. Then the payouts will come back at 30% of what they normally will be, and the talent will riot.
The fact that they keep pushing Mr. Anderson contradicts your claim.
ReplyDeleteIt was almost jarring, because Hogan would take a knee and Jimmy Hart would be in his ear giving him advice. As a kid I was like, "Why is he listening to Jimmy Hart? He's HULK HOGAN! Why does he need wrestling advice?"
ReplyDelete$10-15 a month? No no no no no. I don't see that working. $7.99 is a price most people who might be interested are used to paying.
ReplyDeleteThe X-division is dead too
ReplyDeleteAgree with Anderson, that's why I didn't include him in my list. But the other 5+ are still more entertaining then the ones WWE pushes!
ReplyDeleteIndeed it is, the company needs a major overhaul.
ReplyDeleteI had forgotten Sabin was champion or even on the roster for the last two weeks. The guy was world champion three months ago. That's not good.
ReplyDeleteThat's for regular old television, this is for WWE Entertainment! A slice of Americana!
ReplyDeleteI'd imagine it would only be free in exchange for some sort of minimum commitment where you could not cancel for a certain time period, or they would charge you in advance for 6 months or a year of the network, something along those lines.
ReplyDeleteWCW had a few good ones. And at least you could tell who was coming out when the music hit.
ReplyDeleteThe "jump through hoops" model, that's not much better. Who's handling the refund for WM in that case, because your cable company isn't going to deal with that.
ReplyDeleteJimmy Hart's megaphone was the best manager gimmick ever. From a kayfabe perspective, he could affect a match more than any other heel manager just by being an annoying prick to the ref and the babyface, without ever breaking a rule (and then, when all else failed, he'd hit someone in the head with it). Bobby Heenan was more entertaining away from the ring, but Jimmy was always my favorite to watch during a match.
ReplyDeleteDustin for me, Hardy wouldn't be a bad choice either.
ReplyDeleteSeconded on thinking in terms of "fan favorite" and "rulebreaker" because of the Apter mag influence. Although. if you were talking to your friends about a turn, it was always that so-and-so "turned good" or someone "turned bad." To say that someone (Orndorff, for example) "turned rulebreaker" was too hokey, even for an 11-year old kid.
ReplyDeleteNetflix is £5.99 UK price, I think that's more than fair for WWE network.
ReplyDeleteWhy would you get a refund? If they clearly state that there's a minimum subscription, you're not entitled to a refund.
ReplyDeleteYeah, they did at least try and have signature tunes for their main eventers.
ReplyDeleteYeah but that's just television shows and movies - this is WWE Entertainment, which in itself is a movie, that tells a story, combined with their patented brand of comedy. It's the longest running weekly live action episodic sports entertainment show that airs on Monday's for Chris sake! Give them your money!
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't have any wrestlemania matches either, right? so you can't just use prime, in shape Mysterio?
ReplyDeleteDoes TNA give a contract that makes Harry Smith jump ship?
ReplyDeleteDo you think it'd be better to have Bully disappear for a couple weeks (the proverbial "licking his wounds" absence) before coming back slightly re-packaged? Or for him to come right back next week still trying to make Aces & 8's happen? (Or come back to crash Anderson's "funeral" for Aces & 8's?)
ReplyDeleteTheoretically they could go without Bully for a little bit while the focus is on the world title tournament, but from an entertainment standpoint, he kinda needs to be on the show all the time.
I know you can "never go home again" or however that saying goes, but Ray was a great heel before the Aces ever happened. He was the perfect hybrid between badass bully and weaselly coward who always knew the right time to show weakness. If he can channel what he was in 2011-early 2012, he could go right back to being the company's top heel and people would be ok with forgetting the Aces ever happened.
ReplyDeleteI thought they were trying to set it up where we find out Shaw is a psycho and he's going to eventually torment Christy. (Which means someone will have to step up and defend her, which creates a wrestling feud. I think.) I missed this part, but my friend noticed during that segment that there were some creepy/bloody drawings in Shaw's sketchbook that he made a point not to show Christy.
ReplyDeleteAgreed on them spending too much time on Dixie that could go elsewhere. The Bro Mans are the tag team champions and were becoming mildly entertaining recently; have they even been on Impact the last two weeks?
ReplyDeleteDefinitely. I just wonder how they're going to get Bully back to that place. Immediate character shift, or does he need a break first?
ReplyDeleteThe best course of action would be to take him off TV for a few weeks to let the memory of the Aces die out, but the problem with that is, you leave Anderson with nothing to do. I think what they'll do right away is just have Ray go after Anderson immediately as a revenge feud, even if that isn't the wisest idea.
ReplyDeleteHe was never charged with a crime so he technically never cleared his name.
ReplyDeleteHis sting was a news station doing its own Catch a Predator. They didn't set up anyone to be arrested like the NBC show does.
ReplyDeleteTwo weeks, you mean
ReplyDeleteOr days. Or minutes.
No other channel on earth will bring you Divas Musical Chairs!
ReplyDeleteLike many things related to the WWF, Jimmy became sillier and more cartoon-like as time went on.
ReplyDeleteBut I remember watching the Hart Foundation-Bulldogs match on Bret's DVD, and man - Jimmy was an annoying little prick in that match (and I mean that in a good way. He was supposed to be that). His lecturing the referee through the megaphone was quality heel stuff.
Bill Alfonzo's whistle wasn't bad. Man I hated that fucking thing.
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing hte answer is because Hulk Hogan gets whatever he wants and Hulk wanted to have a lackey on the road with him on the WWF's dime.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading a magazine called Videogames and Computer Entertainment back then, and whenever they'd review a wrestling game they'd use 'baby face' and 'heel'... and I thought that made no sense as a kid.
ReplyDeleteMy wife & I have known each other since kids, and she was a wrestling fan too, and always referred to turns as 'joining the good/bad team'.
Yeah, I never bought it either. Jimmy was one of the biggest pure douchebaggy heels out there, and arguably the most annoying manager in the company. He never "fit" the Babyface roll at ALL, never mind that most good guys didn't need managers in the first place.
ReplyDeleteEnough people whining/crying/threatening will change that tune FAST... especially if it also threatens the cable companies themselves.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Jimmy Hart, the tag match he managed at WM IX is one of those "matches you like for things other than workrate"
ReplyDelete-solid old school angle to build up the match
-the uniqueness factor in seeing Hogan going after the tag straps
-Hogan being the perfect fit for the hot tag something his brief run with Edge in '02 also demonstrated
-the awesome atmosphere of Wrestlemania IX
WHOA!
ReplyDeleteHow the fuck does Hayes keep his job after something like that?
Yeah, that's how I'd guess it'd be.
ReplyDeleteI'd honestly go with 8 bucks a month, but you get a discount on PPVs. Make it work out so if you have the network and buy all the PPVs, you save a little bit of money.
Shit, Cheerleader Melissa, da fuq TNA. These women won't break the bank and they're really talented.
ReplyDeleteI HATE YOU DIXIE!
Oh, so it's American Psycho. Except Christian Bale has talent.
ReplyDeleteAh thanks, this makes a bit more sense now.
ReplyDeleteChuck Taylor...is incredibly funny, but he's not exactly an incredible wrestler. Make him a manager.
ReplyDeleteCable companies do this all the time. Every single cable/satellite provider stuffs their packages for subscribers with a variety of 'get X free, Y month minimum required'. This isn't a new idea.
ReplyDeletePlease show me the fantastic Chuck Taylor matches that give proof to his talent as a worker.
ReplyDeleteI love the guy as a character, I think he's hilarious, but he is not a good worker, and if you disagree, please show me something to prove me wrong.
It was kind of dumb, if only because they just stood around and did absolutely nothing, even letting Knux get involved in the match.
ReplyDeleteYou missed my point, if they do a "six month subscription" model to refund your WM, you won't get your WM refunded until you're paid up, and would probably have to do it through THEM, instead of the cable company
ReplyDeleteYeah, when you buy THEIR products, not someone else's. You get Sunday Ticket for free because you switch to Direct TV. You don't get Sunday Ticket for free because you buy a 10 year subscription to the NFL network
ReplyDeleteRoderick Strong could be the greatest wrestler in the world right now but every time I hear the name I can't help but think 'Oh that indy guy that's been around FOREVER!' Unless he changes his name or evolves his character or something he'll always just be a solid indy guy and nothing more. Maybe he's fine with that.
ReplyDeleteMan, I can't imagine liking any wrestler enough to down vote someone's opinion.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, he had a pretty great series with Ricochet, and his tag with FIST resulted in some super fun Chikara-style stuff.
Having said that, I totally get what you mean by it maybe not coming across as well to a big audience.
BTW, if Lance Storm ever saw the invisible gernade spot, Chuckie T would immediately become his least favorite wrestler.
I think that word, Chikara-style, is key.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think the Chikara style would at all work for an audience of people...that had taste.
P.S. I'm sorry, I just hate Chikara and everything about it.
To each their own. I've always felt it's not for everyone.
ReplyDelete