Hey Scott,
According to Bret Hart's latest DVD, the Dungeon Collection, he mentions how before the Montreal Screwjob he had already worked well over his contractually-obligated dates, much like the current CM Punk situation.
If true, like Punk, doesn't this absolve Bret of any "blame" for the Montreal Screwjob, since he didn't actually have to show up for the match against Michaels at all?
There, now the Punk and Hart issues have become one. Can we work Daniel Bryan in here somehow?
Cheers!
*slow clap*
But yeah, Bret had fulfilled all his yearly dates in 1997, and in fact was under no obligation to even show up and drop the title, which makes it all the weirder that Vince put it on him in the first place. Not to mention that Vince was already willfully in breach of contract, so it gave Bret double reason to not show up. However, I think we've already unanimously agreed that Bret was 100% in the right with the whole thing, so there should be no need for this thread to go 1000 messages. Especially now that Stennick is gone.
Sorry but I can't absolve Bret. After dealing with Vince McMahon for as long as he did and for Bret to still trust him? To get in the ring assuming anything but Bret not leaving with the championship? Nuts. Bananas.
ReplyDeleteI can start a discussion!
ReplyDeleteSo, what you're saying saying is that Punk is smarter than Bret?
Yeah, a lot of stuff should have helped WCW not be colossally stupid, but we all know what happened there.
ReplyDelete#WCWruinsEVERYTHING
ReplyDeleteBret was not only selfish, he was actively sabotaging the WWF. Because he already had his guaranteed contract with WCW, he had zero reason to enforce Creative Control to the point of dictating the outcome of his matches. If he felt so strongly about not getting pinned by Shawn, then he should have just stayed home.
ReplyDelete"However, I think we've already unanimously agreed that Bret was 100% in the right"
ReplyDeletescott keith, master troll
Keep the faith, Stennick
ReplyDeleteMaybe it really was a work!
ReplyDeletewho/what is stennick?
ReplyDeleteThat's an unprecedented thought!
ReplyDeleteNo, I mean really! It was a shoot that everyone was convinced was a worked shoot that was really a shoot that was really a work! A worked worked shoot shoot work!
ReplyDeleteBut Scooby Doo can doodoo!
ReplyDeleteDing, dong, Stennick is dead!
ReplyDeleteWhich Stennick?
The Troll, Stennick!
Yawn. Punk's an IWC darling and Bret's an IWC whipping boy. That's the only substantial difference here.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if your serious or making a Punk joke, but upvote either way.
ReplyDelete"so there should be no need for this thread to go 1000 messages. Especially now that Stennick is gone."
ReplyDeleteScott, shouldn't you want your threads to have 1,000 comments?
One of those "I hate the IWC but don't seem to realize that by posting here I'm part of the IWC" fucking wankers. To me, those are the absolute worst kind of wrestling fan.
ReplyDeleteReverse psychology.
ReplyDeleteAh, gotcha...
ReplyDelete*banana*
ReplyDelete/Pat Patterson
Bret is whipped for his post-wrestling career mostly, right?
ReplyDeleteToo much credit. Just another awful anti-smark troll gimmick. They're basically to wrestling forums what beer drinking rednecks were to the WWE in 2000.
ReplyDeleteOne is enough. Dougie has paid his dues long enough to be the anti-smark douchebag of the site, let him have his spot.
ReplyDeleteHow so?
ReplyDelete"Then Scott Keith, with tears in his eyes, shook my hand as he told me that I was in the right all along and that I had more 5-star matches than Shawn and Flair combined."
ReplyDeleteMostly it's because the IWC fell blindly back in love with St Shawn.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anything could have helped WCW.
ReplyDeleteSo if the anti-smarks hate Punk and Bryan, who do they like? The people that have proved incapable of moving the company out of its "x steps forward, x+1 steps back" rut its been in for over a decade? Reigns? Cesaro? Or are both of them overrated too cause some cheetos eating, grape soda sucking nerd likes them?
ReplyDeleteBryan and the internet geek squad et al aren't gods. We all know this deep down, just as we know Cena doesn't suck and the chant is more a jab at Vince than at John. But if a company is doing 4.0ish ratings in 2002 and can't scratch that number now unless they call in every big star they have for a "special", you think it might be time for a change?
If WWE continues to skewer itself on the "short term gain, long term pain" sword, then its gonna be because it did the opposite of what its core fanbase wanted, not because they followed the advice of the paying crowd. There doesn't need to be Bryan/Cesaro in PPV mains in ridiculously stiff, hard-hitting submissionfests, the company simply need to go back to its core means of success "Good in-ring stuff set up by good out-of-ring stuff". The only time they avoided following this and succeeded was 98-99, but that was more due to the chronic miscues of WCW and following a tidal wave of bandwagon jumpers who either soured on the product as a whole when it was no longer "cool"(which will describe close to like 30% of WWE's fanbase now), or smartened themselves to the business and became loyal fans. No era like that is gonna happen again, so WWE needs to get down to brass tacks and push the people that make sense rather than what they, the company, would like to see if they were the paying crowd instead of people they can't reliably control.
I don't advocate a main event push for Tyson Kidd. I would, however, if the crowd chanted "We want Tyson" during a heavily hyped match. But hey, since I advocated an opinion that leads to some geek getting pushed, I guess I'm just a stupid fat neckbeard that knows nothing.
Did Stennick get the ban?
ReplyDeleteI mean. Outside of Dougie, the site is pretty supportive of him. People call him a bitter old man, but he's pretty firmly established as a great worker and a lot of dudes favorite wrestler.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the IWC? Where is it? Who do they like? Are they hardcore attitude era fans or indy nerds? Do they only watch TNA or do they hate TNA or are they all watching Japanese shit?
ReplyDelete"Where is it?"
ReplyDeleteRight here.
Dude, it's a figure of speech for uber smart fans. Pretty obvious
ReplyDeleteAlso, for all the talk of "Oh, you're boycotting Raw? See you next Monday." I'm willing to bet at least 50% of the people who have followed wrestling for, say, 5 or more years have had a dark period where they maybe occasionally checked a dirtsheet and watched Raw for a minute if they happened to channel surf. I've followed wrestling for close to 17 years, but I could not name the PPV main events from death of Benoit to about WM27 if you held a gun to my head.
ReplyDeleteOh, so you were serious. It's 4 am here so I'm a little off. Anyway, even in my markish days I hated him, thought he was a whiny little bitch, though the whole sort of shoot interview he did with Shawn and JR mellowed me out on him. Bret's OK...
ReplyDeleteWWE has had some very bad years stock-wise since 02. They were down below like 7 bucks a share at one point (hilariously enough this was in October 2002. Wonder if Brock got the blame for that one instead of Trips.), and were below 10 bucks for like a year. Its up now because WWE Network, yeah, but if it becomes a fiasco and few people re-up, theres a very real chance WWE hits 1996 levels.
ReplyDeleteAlso, WWE isn't profitable because more draws, they are profitable simply because they've figured out more ways to make money from merchandising and the house show schedules and the multiple TV shows and the ad deals and internet etc etc etc. if WWE had all those resources in 99-00 they'd be doing sick business compared to now.
You can't tape more than 2 at a time really. And the third has to be filmed after the 2nd has been shown otherwise the live crowd won't know wtf is going on storyline wise unless you have the same crowd as the first taping.
ReplyDeleteThey've diversified their revenue streams extremely well. It's not just house shows, ratings, etc. any more. The actual in ring product doesn't affect things that much, let alone things like Cesaro or Reigns being pushed
ReplyDeleteFreshmen...........
ReplyDeleteThe last thing I expected was someone actually disputing the Naito/Ishii. NEVER dispute the Naito/Ishii. NEVER.
So when they start the match with a lock up, and a rope advantage reversal, followed by a Fuck You Naito... That's not art?
And then they go to the forearms. Bro, the forearms are
the reason that we signed up for this. We've been watching these
forearms for a month. It's all led to this. BRING the mthrfkn'
Forearms!.. That's Art.
And That Crowd! They didn't show up to Raw with no idea what they were
gonna see; happily surprised by a great match (it was, I'm NOT knocking
it).. NO, they PAID to see THIS match. They paid for an ART.
And we're not even 2 minutes in, and we get an
Armdrag/Elbow/Forearm/LeapFrog/DropKick sequence cleaner than ANYTHING
in that Raw match. If you disagree, leave a comment below. No really, show me something. That sequence, That's Art.
And then Naito plays up the heel heat he's really wanted to play up for
months now. Telling the crowd to bring it. That heat has a thicker
disgust to it than the Cena quazi-heel heat. To trump even that, heel
Naito is immediately all cocky and dope.
Almost 5 minutes in and we're getting the headbutt brutality that you're
likely referencing. How much did you care when Cena fell off the
top rope to the floor? That bump was Pain>Art, right? You'd have
enjoyed one from Cesaro in return as a poetic payoff, right? They don't
do this on house shows. This is the Big Stage. Just let them do their
Art.
And when Ishii is tapping him in the back of the head with his foot,
five minutes in. Is that legit beating the crap out of each other?
Because that's the kind of nuances the Cesaro match lacked.
There is another 15-20 minutes of this match. I can sit here and use
facts to support my argument all night. However, anyone who thumbed down
my original comment.. I don't believe for a second that you actually knew
who Ishii and Naito were when, or even IF, you watched that match. Why even argue a point that you're not educated on?
For
those who actually watched it LIVE and knew what they were watching and
what it meant, it was more excellent than what Cesaro and Cena meant to
you. I promise you that..
Thumbs down? Ha, sure. I feel like I'm talking to people who haven't actually watched the matches that they say they have.
Except they can, because as I said: If WWE had all these options in 2000 they'd be doing far bigger numbers than they are now.
ReplyDeleteImagine, if you will, Austin getting over in an environment where people can conveniently access the internet through a touchscreen phone and order 2 of his shirts with minimal fuss and no 10 week wait to get them or whatever the shipping and handling standards were back then. The WWE would be rolling in dough.
Yes, some things have changed, and wrestling has been hammered by a bunch of stuff out of their control, but if WWE can create stars that can exceed current merchandise numbers, move the ratings, up the house show attendance all-around, and create Network subscribers, then they can affect things that much.
It's going to be fantastic. I just wonder if it'd be better as a regular six-man (as it seems to be) or a street fight like Ahmed/LOD vs The Nation at WM13.
ReplyDeleteWe gave it ****1/2 stars because we have actually watched the product, and know what an anomaly this night was.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sold on the rest of the family but Bray is fantastic.
ReplyDeletePfft. We could carry a broomstick to 1000 messages.
ReplyDeleteFlair did pretty well for himself.
ReplyDeleteI'm downvoting you for being unbearably pretentious.
ReplyDeleteNope. Don't like blondes and she's a bit of a butterface.
ReplyDeleteThis dude sounds like he grows hipsters in his beard.
ReplyDeleteTrey Parker said so in Orgazmo so it must be true.
ReplyDeleteOOGA CHAKA OOGA CHAKA....damn if that wasn't the perfect fit for what seems certain to be an over the top, "we're not taking any of this seriously" movie. Also, Pratt as Starlord, doing the "wind up middle finger" bit was GREAT.
ReplyDeleteIn his matches, Flair got his opponent AND the referee over.
ReplyDeleteI fully admit I haven't watched RAW in who knows how long, and I haven't watched a Cena match ever outside of WM matches.
ReplyDeleteQuick question: are the finishes to his matches always so abrupt? It was kind of weird... heel beats down face - small face comeback - heel gets upper hand - small face comeback - heel makes one last stand - face cmbk. I abbreviate it like that because it seemed super fast (at least compared to what I'm used to).
I didn't notice this in the WM matches of his I've watched, but here it seemed almost "out of the blue".
My favorite was a high school band playing Kurt Angle's Medal theme at a football game. Sadly, the crowd did not know the "You Suck!" chant.
ReplyDeleteSo professionalism is not being an asshole? I can be a professional if I come in and do a half-assed job with a pleasant smile?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, you've resorted to hyperbole, so I'm done here. Please have the last (wrong) word, Mr. Farva.
I'm curious- is Sheamus actually any good? He showed me NOTHING here (it was basically all Orton minus a couple of the Five Moves of Doom in Sheamus' comebacks), but I know people (who have terrible opinions on wrestling, I should point out) who INSIST that he is a great, fantastic worker. Like, Bret Hart-level good.
ReplyDeleteYour cheap pop tactic needs work.
ReplyDeleteRight here! On the blog of doom!
ReplyDeleteThere's no evidence that Punk is particularly over in Japan. He would be mid-class at best in wrestling ability, and it's not like the fans would understand his promos...
ReplyDeleteIt means what the most vocal, frothing minority will it to mean.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, ask Jesse Baker.
Exactly my point. Chickenshit heels work fine.
ReplyDeleteIt's your patriotic duty to upvote the cheap pop!
ReplyDeleteYou shut your mouth, fat boy!
ReplyDeleteThat was my first PPV. The thing I was looking forward to more than anything was seeing how they were going to pull off God.
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of his but that's too far.
ReplyDeleteHe's very good at what he is: the power brawler who can make his finisher look devastating and throw around big guys. He's a solid second tier guy and someone you can throw in a multi-man world title match if you need to fill in a slot. Sheamus will never be the top guy in the company but he plays his role very well.
Semi-threadjack:
ReplyDeleteHere's something to ponder since WWE seems determined not to give fans what they want.
If WWE were to fail (no, I'm not saying it will, so those who want to bitch and moan, unbunch your panties -- but it HAS almost happened twice before), what would happen to wrestling as a whole?
Let's assume that TNA isn't an option. Because, well, TNA.
What would happen to wrestling? Would it continue to live on in the indies? If that's the case, for how long?
Many/most current wrestlers (even back to the Attitude Era wrestlers) grew up watching WWF/NWA, and that's where the wrestling dreams began. Nowadays, I believe most wrestlers start the career thinking "I want to make it to WWE!" (I can't imagine anybody NOT thinking that).
But what happens if WWE is no longer an option? Would people still strive to be wrestlers? I guess some would, but probably not nearly as many. It would be like wanting to be a football player with no NFL.
Would some other Fed step up and take the mantle? ROH (probably not -- they're good, but take wrestling "too seriously" to be a long-term prospect). Chikara (No. I love them, but they have the exact opposite problem of ROH). PWG... Theoretically, but we have no idea how they actually book, since they only book 8-10 shows a year, and half of those are built around tournaments. Jarrett's thing?
If the unthinkable happens and WWE jacks around its fans to the point that they all abandon ship and they can't figure out a hail Mary play like they did with Rock and Wrestling and the Attitude Era, would that be the end of wrestling completely?
cultstatus is going nuts with the downvoting!
ReplyDeleteBret was 100% right? Bret screwed Bret. WWF got about 1000% better after he left.
ReplyDeleteRIP Big Vis.He was clearly one of the worst guys they ever attempted to trot out as a main eventer, but he had a pretty fun run from 99' on.
ReplyDelete...Remember when his finisher was ass raping people?
ReplyDeleteIt means Scott is too poor to watch raw on tv, so he demands that Hulu does as he feels is righ and cut all segments he does not enjoy. He's paying his 8 dollars a month damnit, and he demands satisfaction for that steep price. It's Scott's way or the highway and it looks like hulu is going to have to take the highway.
ReplyDeleteexactly. there are dozens of people on this blog who don't really watch it anymore (or even more likely: just skip through it). in a way Scott is the best example: he doesn't watch the "regular" Raw anymore because the three hour version is just too damn long.
ReplyDeleteLesnar, Punk, Bryan, Sandow, Cesaro...the number of guys Cena has carried to four star matches is off the chart. Can they PLEASE push the guy, already?
ReplyDeleteI think Bret was right, but WWF got better when he left. Actually the roster and the matches got worse, but the ratings and stories got better. ;-) But why? In 97 they had so many good matches like Bret vs Austin, Bret vs HBK, HBK vs Bulldog, Owen vs Bulldog, Hart Foundation vs Austin & Co and the roster in 98 was so thin like never with Bret, Bulldog & Neidhart in WCW and HBK hurt. Who would have thought after the Montreal incident, that WWF would reach Nitro in the ratings only some months later???
ReplyDeleteBack in the good old days before this PG stuff RUINED EVERYTHING!
ReplyDeleteWhatever you say, Meltzer.
ReplyDeleteThey stopped calling it the "FU" literally 4 years ago. I wonder how much longer until Scott cracks and finally calls it the A-A.
ReplyDeleteVince McMahon to buy Newcastle United of the English Premiere League?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/wwe-owner-vince-mcmahon-reported-to-be-sniffing-around-newcastle-united-with-a-view-to-incredible-takeover-bid-9135535.html
Can even Vince screw up a guaranteed money making outside operation like this?
"I could not name the PPV main events from death of Benoit to about WM27 if you held a gun to my head."
ReplyDeleteIt was John Cena vs. Randy Orton.
I want more Cena v Cesar's matches in the future. Wow did those two put on a show. Early moty
ReplyDeleteIt took me a good 4 years before I stopped referring to wwe as wwf.
ReplyDeleteWait till u hear that crusty Aussie accent lol.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's actually what it reminds me of.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, it's just a nitpick, I know that "Attitude Adjustment" is the least "Roll off the tongue" name for a move in history, but A-A seems fine. Anyway!
I've only seen her twice, and I think she fits into all 3. Such a sweetie!
ReplyDelete" Shame they’re breaking up because they’re all coming into their own as workers and talkers."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that a pretty accurate description of about every tag team they've had over the past few years?
Sure. Take a look at how Air Boom was elevated.
ReplyDeleteI'm still annoyed with Bourne over that. I loved that team, they were the perfect opening match act. But then he had to get high or something. Kofi/R-Truth wasn't quite as good.
ReplyDeleteI think he was great as the brawling bully heel who called everyone "fella". As a face he's a decent worker but not all that interesting.
ReplyDeleteI love chicken shit heels.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThe Quebecers and I would like to send our deepest condolences to Oscar and Mo.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember their last quarterly report correctly, the only reason they turned a profit was because of increased TV fees and nothing else. Everything else was flat, or down. There is a reason they're hoping NBC forks over the big bucks to keep Raw on USA. (Said with the knowledge that the WWE Network might change revenue streams for them)
ReplyDeleteConan the Librarian. "You don't know the Dewey Decimal System?"
ReplyDeleteCorrelation does not imply causation.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking the same thing... ditto for yesterday when I got my hand slapped for posting a lot
ReplyDeleteRandom observation: They’re wrestling in a six-man tag at a PPV called
ReplyDeleteElimination Chamber…has no one on creative put 3 and 3 together on this
one?
As awesome as the concept of Wyatts vs Shield in the EC sounds, the actual execution would be kind of awkward and/or contrived due to the rules of the match. Even though logic has never had much (or even any) say in booking, the moment one guy got eliminated there should be no way the other team doesn't just dominate the entire match, especially if it happens early enough. Even allowing for alternating releases from the pods, the old War Games sub-gimmick of one team being guaranteed a temporary numbers advantage is potentially much more crushing where mid-match eliminations are allowed. And if you're NOT going to eliminate anyone until all six guys are in the match, then you might as well just forego the cage and start that way.
Plus this way allows the inevitable Reigns/Ambrose miscommunication to cost them the match and further that program. And maybe get Rollins to pick a side too.
Yeah, their TV fees and PPV drives the majority of their revenue.
ReplyDeleteNaito/Ishii is definitely a five star match. One star for every person that's seen it.
ReplyDeletePretty sure he meant it should be elimination rules.
ReplyDeleteRun.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he was Dougie without the charm and wit. Stennick was a far worse anti-smark because his seriousness with it was over-the-top. You undermine your point that we're all stupid when you write a novella.
ReplyDeleteLast I checked Kelly was married to an NHLer. But then I guess that's never stopped Big Dave before.
ReplyDeleteUh anti smarks don't hate punk or Bryan. They hate smarks.
ReplyDeleteDamn... He was only 24 when he headlined SummerSlam!
ReplyDeleteMy fav memory of him is when he busted out a spinning wheel kick during the tag team gauntlet match at summerslam 99. Haven't watched the show in years (only have a vhs tape of it). If only there was a way for me to legally watch this match along with other past shows and ppvs. Maybe I'll find a way by Monday...
ReplyDeleteI was a big MOM fan when I was a kid, but I can't say I continued that fandom when his singles run hit.
ReplyDeleteI shall watch the events of New Years Revolution 06 in dedication.
ReplyDeleteI nominate Todd Lorenz for new World's Largest Love Machine!
ReplyDeleteAwww that's depressing, Vis was always one of my favorite bad wrestlers to watch, and even though he was obese, he did seem quite healthy unlike most obese people that look like they're on their death bed.
ReplyDelete