This stuff does nothing for me, but it's probably cause I grew up watching a different style. I've tried to go back and watch a good bit of it and nothing. Totally understandably why others love it though.
I still mostly like Sabu as a sideshow attraction. He never produced "great" matches, but his style was never really meant to despite what the ECW crowds would have you believe. He was mostly a spot worker. There's nothing wrong with that, especially when it's attached to an interesting gimmick and a good look.
In the mid 90's, WCW was pissing all over their fanbase by trying to be WWF Lite (sound familiar). They had tons of cartoon gimmicks like PN News and Big Josh which was what their fans hated about the WWF. Then they bring in Hogan and immediately put him over Flair for the belt.
Meanwhile in the WWF, Vince was reeling from the steroid trials. He give Michaels and Bret the ball, but still had his love for big men. But instead of muscles, he was pushing Kevin Nash, Sid and Mabel. Also, WWF had become a very sanitized product with no blood or risque angles (sound familiar?)
Then comes ECW with guys smashing tables, bleeding all over the place, and straight wrestling matches that had moves you didn't think existed. It was like "THIS is what they've been holding back."
His matches with RVD were good because they had similar styles. He really should have spent some time in Japan or Mexico in non hardcore stuff because he certainly had the coordination and ability.
I have to agree with Hulk/Rock. The People's Elbow was just overkill, and Rock missed it, too. No shame in Hogan jobbing to the Rock Bottom, so why the comedy elbow spot?
HHH - HBK Hell in a cell from 2004 and HHH - HBK 3 stages of hell from 2002. Both matches went on for 15 minutes after both guys ran out of juice. HHH didn't care though and this was from the period where he needed everything to revolve around him.
I understand why people liked it. There just wasn't enough psychology for me. The fact that no one would really sell anything made it tough to get emotionally invested in it.
One thing I've always found interesting is how WWF and WCW fans were both united when it came to hatred of WCW. My theory is that a lot of ECW fans were WWF castoffs in the northeast so while they had soured on WWF in the mid-90s, they still wore their "stripes," which is why so many of them hopped back to WWF in the Attitude era (IE Faith No More Guy being at WWF shows and such)
The HIAC match would be 4+ stars if it was compressed to 23-30 minutes, but good God there's just so much laying around that it's a chore to watch more than once.
I can think of a ton of ECW matches that would be a lot better if they cut down on all of the aimless brawling outside and in the crowd. Bam Bam Bigelow/Taz from Living Dangerously '98 is the first to come to mind.
Coming from an outsider I just never understood it. If he's the most popular and biggest star he should be champion or at least trying to get a shot. He seemed like he could care less. What was supposed to be the idea behind it?
I think Heyman and crew pretty much pushed the WCW hate more than the WWF hate, especially once Bischoff started raiding ECW for talent. Once the raids started, they seemed to develop more of a working relationship with the WWF, so Heyman toned down the anti-Vince rhetoric.
What made the HIAC even worse was that it followed up Kane-Benoit. People thought this would be a throwaway match, but it ended up being the best match of Kane's life. It was also a pure technical match (how often can you say that for a Kane match?), while HHH HBK was full of gimmicks that accomplished nothing. That was such a huge contrast. That wasn't the first time HHH bored a crowd after a fantastic Benoit match though (Royal Rumble 2003).
Eh, apples and oranges. I love the match (ignoring that it was butt-ugly at times, but still epicly awesome), and will continue to list it as one of my favorite mark out adult moments, but I just thought "this match is already over, what's the point in a second rock bottom AND people's elbow?" And, again, my biggest gripe was it misses by a mile, and the camera catches it clearly.
There would've been no shame in calling an audible and finishing the match after the broken glass. How either man was moving after that, and managed to go another 5-minutes is nothing short of "these guys are fucking nuts."
For reasons I'll never understand, the random "kick out" of the Rock Bottom during Angle/Rock at No Way Out 2001. Match should have ended there, but then Rock has to pick up Angle, Rock Bottom him again, and then pin him.
It made Angle look like a badass, but it was obvious that he didn't kick out.
Def. Kane's best singles match. I also loved the build leading up to and during the match that Benoit, try as he might, couldn't lock the Crossface on Kane, they played it up very well (not to mention having to compete twice in one night at BB).
I got to agree with Scott's idea in his rant for this match as well, HHH/Steiner 1 should've called an audible as soon as the crowd turned on them and cut it short, GTFO. Either then or when Steiner COLLAPSED against the ropes after the third of his eighty-six belly to belly suplexes.
The last half of that match is amazing, even knowing that there's no falls. The first half? Bret no-selling Shawn working the arm for a good 5-minutes, and a whole lot of nothing else.
When are they going to hire an English-speaking commentary team and start offering this stuff online in the US/Canada? I can't get into it with the Japanese announcers.
The second Steiner fell down doing a suplex, and hanging onto the ropes like he just got punched in the back of the head... yeah, should've called it. Then it went another 10 MINUTES. Who fucking made that call? When JR is obviously apologizing for the quality of the match, something's wrong. Then there's the random and pointless blade job.
He wasn't their biggest star for like the first year of that title reign. In fact, his win was completely random as I believe the story at the time was building towards Sabu taking the belt but Rob pulled off an upset. It was that long-ass reign that finally put him over the top.
I will always be a fan of Sabu, despite his blown spots (lol @ the first comment on Youtube "@2:33 can someone tell my why the hell Sabu does a halfass botched moonsault on a empty table???"). IMO his matches were and still are just fun to watch... something that I just can't seem to find in today's wrestling.
I love the guy and wish he hadn't gone out the way he did, but Misawa was SO bad for this. You could argue a lot of AJPW/NOAH matches went too long, but his stuff just got rediculous.
Whole thing was marred from the start as the whole damn POINT of an Iron Man match is to score falls but neither guy wanted to be the first to give up to the other. If it was a regular match that happened to go 60 minutes, it'd be great but both guys refusing to job to the other during it marred it for the "sudden death" bit.
I recently rewatched this match and Shane landing on his head on exposed concrete is still one of the nastiest, scariests thing I've ever seen in wrestling. I mean you can literally hear his head bouncing off bare concrete over the crowd! I wouldn't be surprised if he still has problems relating to that to this day.
The example from the OP is great. Dunno what they were smoking when they didn't book that as the finish. It tells a fucking story and it takes it home before that match devolved into both of them having 26 full smackdown meters
Just for reference, here's the only Japanese wrestling match with English commentary I've ever been able to find (outside of the TNA/NJPW show from 2008, but that doesn't really count). It's a ***** match even without commentary but you can judge for yourself whether it helps you enjoy it more
This was the first Tanahashi match I've watched and it was really good, but I wouldn't say my mind was blown. Any suggestions from you guys who are regular fans?
Is New Japan running ppv's once a month? How much are they and are they easily available on YouTube/Daily Motion afterwards? Thinking about getting into this.
He was their marketing tool. I remember showing a former fan ECW in 96 and sabu made their jaw drop.He was so fucking different at the time. Take him out of that time period and u will never understand him.
Hell, they could have stopped that after the second time Shane bounced off the glass before it finally broke. Knowing Shane though, he probably made the decision to keep going. Guy is a fucking lunatic.
This was definitely mentioned on WWE Excess or Confidential. Kurt said that after the spot failed Shane looked at him and said "throw me through that motherfucker".
I'm with you. Sabu is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. For someone my age who was 12 in 1997, Sabu stood out as a wildman and a daredevil like nobody else in wrestling at the time. Sure, he was sloppy and he didn't put on five star matches, but he had an aura unlike anyone else.
I don't doubt it, he's fucking insane. One thing I give him and Vince credit for, you'll never hear anyone say (especially these days) "If you won't take that bump then why should I?"
This stuff does nothing for me, but it's probably cause I grew up watching a different style. I've tried to go back and watch a good bit of it and nothing. Totally understandably why others love it though.
ReplyDeleteRichards vs Edwards at Final Battle,the moment when davey kicked out of PILEDRIVER and a brainbuster back to back the match lost the excitment.
ReplyDeleteYou can say that about every Tanahashi match.
ReplyDeleteGood promo, but the backdrop is hilarious.
ReplyDeleteI still mostly like Sabu as a sideshow attraction. He never produced "great" matches, but his style was never really meant to despite what the ECW crowds would have you believe. He was mostly a spot worker. There's nothing wrong with that, especially when it's attached to an interesting gimmick and a good look.
ReplyDeleteHHH-Undertaker WM 27
ReplyDeleteIn the mid 90's, WCW was pissing all over their fanbase by trying to be WWF Lite (sound familiar). They had tons of cartoon gimmicks like PN News and Big Josh which was what their fans hated about the WWF. Then they bring in Hogan and immediately put him over Flair for the belt.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile in the WWF, Vince was reeling from the steroid trials. He give Michaels and Bret the ball, but still had his love for big men. But instead of muscles, he was pushing Kevin Nash, Sid and Mabel. Also, WWF had become a very sanitized product with no blood or risque angles (sound familiar?)
Then comes ECW with guys smashing tables, bleeding all over the place, and straight wrestling matches that had moves you didn't think existed. It was like "THIS is what they've been holding back."
His matches with RVD were good because they had similar styles. He really should have spent some time in Japan or Mexico in non hardcore stuff because he certainly had the coordination and ability.
ReplyDeleteWarrior-Hogan II should have ended three seconds after the opening bell.
ReplyDeleteI think Davey Richard's matches constantly miss its apex and then filtrates to the finish.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Hulk/Rock. The People's Elbow was just overkill, and Rock missed it, too. No shame in Hogan jobbing to the Rock Bottom, so why the comedy elbow spot?
ReplyDeleteHHH - HBK Hell in a cell from 2004 and HHH - HBK 3 stages of hell from 2002. Both matches went on for 15 minutes after both guys ran out of juice. HHH didn't care though and this was from the period where he needed everything to revolve around him.
ReplyDeleteI understand why people liked it. There just wasn't enough psychology for me. The fact that no one would really sell anything made it tough to get emotionally invested in it.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've always found interesting is how WWF and WCW fans were both united when it came to hatred of WCW. My theory is that a lot of ECW fans were WWF castoffs in the northeast so while they had soured on WWF in the mid-90s, they still wore their "stripes," which is why so many of them hopped back to WWF in the Attitude era (IE Faith No More Guy being at WWF shows and such)
ReplyDeleteA promo putting over a SECONDARY title? Incredible.
ReplyDeleteThe HIAC match would be 4+ stars if it was compressed to 23-30 minutes, but good God there's just so much laying around that it's a chore to watch more than once.
ReplyDeleteWell this was the company that left a secondary title on their biggest star for two years.
ReplyDeleteI can think of a ton of ECW matches that would be a lot better if they cut down on all of the aimless brawling outside and in the crowd. Bam Bam Bigelow/Taz from Living Dangerously '98 is the first to come to mind.
ReplyDeleteAnd they did good things with it.
ReplyDeleteHundreds of RoH matches. I find they'll do these tremendous, crowd-popping moves that could easily - EASILY be the finish...and then do like ten more.
ReplyDeleteComing from an outsider I just never understood it. If he's the most popular and biggest star he should be champion or at least trying to get a shot. He seemed like he could care less. What was supposed to be the idea behind it?
ReplyDeleteMost post 2000-2001 Triple H matches.
ReplyDeleteLike I posted below,Richards vs Edwards at Final battle is the perfect evidence.
ReplyDeleteI'm late to the Nakamura party, but that guy leaps off the screen.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to book a feud like that,you know,just two guy trying to be the best.because sometimes simplicity is the better option.
ReplyDeleteI think Heyman and crew pretty much pushed the WCW hate more than the WWF hate, especially once Bischoff started raiding ECW for talent. Once the raids started, they seemed to develop more of a working relationship with the WWF, so Heyman toned down the anti-Vince rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteThey had so many people they could put in that slot though,
ReplyDeleteWhat made the HIAC even worse was that it followed up Kane-Benoit. People thought this would be a throwaway match, but it ended up being the best match of Kane's life. It was also a pure technical match (how often can you say that for a Kane match?), while HHH HBK was full of gimmicks that accomplished nothing. That was such a huge contrast. That wasn't the first time HHH bored a crowd after a fantastic Benoit match though (Royal Rumble 2003).
ReplyDeleteBenoit v. Angle was after HHH v. Steiner
ReplyDeleteRock beating him with the People's Elbow was awesome. It was like Rock was rubbing it in his face that was the better man.
ReplyDeleteAngle/Shane at King of the Ring 2001 where they have Shane kicking out after being thrown TWICE through a plate-glass window and onto his damn head.
ReplyDeleteoh my mistake, point still stands, that match was fucking terrible.
ReplyDeleteEh, apples and oranges. I love the match (ignoring that it was butt-ugly at times, but still epicly awesome), and will continue to list it as one of my favorite mark out adult moments, but I just thought "this match is already over, what's the point in a second rock bottom AND people's elbow?" And, again, my biggest gripe was it misses by a mile, and the camera catches it clearly.
ReplyDeleteThere would've been no shame in calling an audible and finishing the match after the broken glass. How either man was moving after that, and managed to go another 5-minutes is nothing short of "these guys are fucking nuts."
ReplyDeleteHHH/Steiner from Rumble 2003 was awful and should have ended about five minutes after it started... or after Steiner's six overhead suplex.
ReplyDeleteFor reasons I'll never understand, the random "kick out" of the Rock Bottom during Angle/Rock at No Way Out 2001. Match should have ended there, but then Rock has to pick up Angle, Rock Bottom him again, and then pin him.
ReplyDeleteIt made Angle look like a badass, but it was obvious that he didn't kick out.
Earl Hebner fucked up
ReplyDeleteDef. Kane's best singles match. I also loved the build leading up to and during the match that Benoit, try as he might, couldn't lock the Crossface on Kane, they played it up very well (not to mention having to compete twice in one night at BB).
ReplyDeleteMan, I fell asleep during both matches. How could they make a 3 Stages of Hell so goddamn boring?
ReplyDeleteI got to agree with Scott's idea in his rant for this match as well, HHH/Steiner 1 should've called an audible as soon as the crowd turned on them and cut it short, GTFO. Either then or when Steiner COLLAPSED against the ropes after the third of his eighty-six belly to belly suplexes.
ReplyDeleteAn inverse of this is the Shawn/Bret iron man match, which would've been much better if you just lop off the first 30 minutes.
ReplyDeleteYup. He thought Angle was kickin' and only counted two. Rock gets visibly pissed about it.
ReplyDeleteThe last half of that match is amazing, even knowing that there's no falls. The first half? Bret no-selling Shawn working the arm for a good 5-minutes, and a whole lot of nothing else.
ReplyDeleteWhen are they going to hire an English-speaking commentary team and start offering this stuff online in the US/Canada? I can't get into it with the Japanese announcers.
ReplyDeleteThe second Steiner fell down doing a suplex, and hanging onto the ropes like he just got punched in the back of the head... yeah, should've called it. Then it went another 10 MINUTES. Who fucking made that call? When JR is obviously apologizing for the quality of the match, something's wrong. Then there's the random and pointless blade job.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't their biggest star for like the first year of that title reign. In fact, his win was completely random as I believe the story at the time was building towards Sabu taking the belt but Rob pulled off an upset. It was that long-ass reign that finally put him over the top.
ReplyDeleteI will always be a fan of Sabu, despite his blown spots (lol @ the first comment on Youtube "@2:33 can someone tell my why the hell Sabu does a halfass botched moonsault on a empty table???"). IMO his matches were and still are just fun to watch... something that I just can't seem to find in today's wrestling.
ReplyDeleteHogan done kicked out of one rock bottom. Why not make sure he'd stay down
ReplyDeleteI'd be happy if most Randy Orton matches were over before his ring entrance.
ReplyDelete"Don't you miss the money that goes along with it?"
ReplyDeleteThat line took me out of the moment, sorry.
I remember getting profoundly annoyed at the Hart/Backlund Survivor Series match.
ReplyDeletePride did it. Why can't New Japan?
ReplyDeleteThen they'll be snobby guys who only watch subtitles, just like with anime.
ReplyDeleteThen they thought doing it again was a great idea. Thank god those matches are at least hilarious.
ReplyDeleteI love the guy and wish he hadn't gone out the way he did, but Misawa was SO bad for this. You could argue a lot of AJPW/NOAH matches went too long, but his stuff just got rediculous.
ReplyDeleteAgain, loved the guy, but it does get irksome.
Give it time. They just started allowing people outside of Japan to order their ppvs, so if the market is there, alternate lang
ReplyDeleteWhole thing was marred from the start as the whole damn POINT of an Iron Man match is to score falls but neither guy wanted to be the first to give up to the other. If it was a regular match that happened to go 60 minutes, it'd be great but both guys refusing to job to the other during it marred it for the "sudden death" bit.
ReplyDeleteI recently rewatched this match and Shane landing on his head on exposed concrete is still one of the nastiest, scariests thing I've ever seen in wrestling. I mean you can literally hear his head bouncing off bare concrete over the crowd! I wouldn't be surprised if he still has problems relating to that to this day.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB4qOI7xxn0
ReplyDeleteThe example from the OP is great. Dunno what they were smoking when they didn't book that as the finish. It tells a fucking story and it takes it home before that match devolved into both of them having 26 full smackdown meters
ReplyDeleteJust for reference, here's the only Japanese wrestling match with English commentary I've ever been able to find (outside of the TNA/NJPW show from 2008, but that doesn't really count). It's a ***** match even without commentary but you can judge for yourself whether it helps you enjoy it more
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzOXMjmq-68
This was the first Tanahashi match I've watched and it was really good, but I wouldn't say my mind was blown. Any suggestions from you guys who are regular fans?
ReplyDeleteIs New Japan running ppv's once a month? How much are they and are they easily available on YouTube/Daily Motion afterwards? Thinking about getting into this.
Is subs vs. dubs still a thing?
ReplyDeleteEVERY HHH match the last 10 years.
ReplyDeleteHe was like Andre. A special attraction that put butts in the seats
ReplyDeleteb/c japanese, amiright?
ReplyDeleteHe was their marketing tool. I remember showing a former fan ECW in 96 and sabu made their jaw drop.He was so fucking different at the time. Take him out of that time period and u will never understand him.
ReplyDeleteSheamus/Bryan at WM 28 went a bit long....
ReplyDeleteSo did Chavo/Kane at WM 24.
ReplyDeleteOww
ReplyDeleteI was there for that one and it did seem to go over the time allotted...
ReplyDeletebret/backlund at survivor series '94
ReplyDeletethere is absolutely no excuse for the chicken wing segment to go on as long as it did, esp. considering owen and helen's horrible acting
all while davey boy has clinically died on the mat outside the ring b/c no one pays any attention to him after he took the bump
don't forget benoit/orlando at summerslam '05, or buff/luger vs. ohaire/ jindrak at whatever that wcw ppv was
ReplyDeletesome would say diesel/backlund at msg. as in, not have diesel in the title match
Tanahashi is good, but I like four or five guys a lot more. His stuff with Okada is worth watching, they were made for each other.
ReplyDeleteVery much so.
ReplyDeleteThat match was way too long. Main reason I'm not a fan, if they chopped out 10 minutes or so I'd like it a lot more.
ReplyDeleteHBK/Bret, WMXII. Seeing as how the Ironman stip never really came into play that match should have been a normal 25/30 minute match.
ReplyDeleteWish I would have scrolled down and seen this before I wasted time making the exact same points you and Abbot did.
ReplyDeleteYeah, HHH/Steiner probably my favorite "so bad it's great" matches.
ReplyDeleteAnd stupid bladejob. And it's not just that match, no one should ever blade off a belt shot, it looks fake as hell.
ReplyDeleteHell, they could have stopped that after the second time Shane bounced off the glass before it finally broke. Knowing Shane though, he probably made the decision to keep going. Guy is a fucking lunatic.
ReplyDeleteThis was definitely mentioned on WWE Excess or Confidential. Kurt said that after the spot failed Shane looked at him and said "throw me through that motherfucker".
ReplyDeleteI'm with you. Sabu is one of my favorite wrestlers of all time. For someone my age who was 12 in 1997, Sabu stood out as a wildman and a daredevil like nobody else in wrestling at the time. Sure, he was sloppy and he didn't put on five star matches, but he had an aura unlike anyone else.
ReplyDeleteOrton and HHH had one of the most pedestrian, unsuspenseful 3 stages of hell matches that I've ever seen.
ReplyDeleteIn film subs are vastly superior to dubs. True for anime as well, or no?
ReplyDeleteGiven the current state of NA wrestling it seems like there'd be a niche. Although, maybe WWE just swallowed that niche with the network.
ReplyDeleteI don't doubt it, he's fucking insane. One thing I give him and Vince credit for, you'll never hear anyone say (especially these days) "If you won't take that bump then why should I?"
ReplyDeleteMan, ECW was fun. I miss those days.
ReplyDelete