http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k4Z5ayHU2aPbgM5qDUo
Amazing, mind blowing match that has a legit shot at MOTY.
Jesus, and this was just this morning, too! People are FAST with this stuff.
So people who are thinking that Sheamus and Cesaro forearm-ing each other for 15 minutes sounds like a fun time should probably check this one out because it's awesome. Ishii is one surly fucker and Naito is always pretty great and they were just unloading on each other here. I loved all the little touches too, like the guys deliberately missing spots because they're so tired and beat up, and Ishii putting the quality badmouth on him in the corner with "WHO'S THE CHAMPION NOW?" Plus they had me with the Last Ride - Double Lariat sequence and I was totally buying it as the finish. I'd go ****1/2 all day.
"Zack Ryder was destined to stay where he was because he is terrible, and wouldn't draw flies to shit. He was over"
ReplyDeleteThat right there. That's where you contradicted yourself. Ryder was getting huge pops and "We Want Ryder" chants. He was moving merch and he had a gimmick that worked (the fist pumping bro in 2011.) Kofi Kingston and Santino Marella (save for that one EC match) never got that kind of heat.
Zack Ryder sucks, but that doesn't mean he couldn't draw. He's already proven that he can, at least as a midcard act. He might have looked less ridiculous next to Kane and Cena if his gimmick wasn't changed from "fist pumper" to "cuckold" overnight.
Friend zone doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteGo into more detail please.
ReplyDeleteWell okay. Stay Tuned.
ReplyDeleteOutlaws only have the titles to put over The Usos at Mania.
ReplyDeleteWonderful contribution to the conversation.
ReplyDeleteWonderful contribution to the conversation. Part Two.
ReplyDeleteThe conversation was wrong from the start, so I corrected it. If you want to debate that specific storyline's awful slut-shaming, I will.
ReplyDeleteI love getting my hands on books / DVDs, podcasts etc that feature guys talking about the different promotions of the 80s. I swear I must have read Flair's book a dozen times.
ReplyDeleteI'm not condoning it at all--some stuff is absolutely insane--but my god do I find it all interesting.
Go ahead and comment on my other comment too. Get the hat trick.
ReplyDeleteDidn't someone already name a match like two days or so ago as match of the year? There's ten months to go no need to jump the gun. Good match tho
ReplyDeleteI'm sure There's a special spot in HELL reserved for Grizzly Smith. Probably next to the one waiting for Jerry Sandusky
ReplyDeleteYeah I dont get that one either......they could have easily made that guy back into a Main Eventer
ReplyDeleteSlut shaming is ok if you can't get laid to save your life doncha know
ReplyDeleteLost in ALL of this is Kofi "comfortable" Kingston, who solidly rests in the mid card and has consistently since '08. No top tier time, but never in any danger of being let go. Gets his Rumble spot, gets the occasional IC/US bone, and if he's extra good, gets a fluke Orton win.
ReplyDeleteNo backstage drama, no pressure of being top guy. Just get to wrestle for WWE, play video games in the off time, and make great money.
If I was in WWE, I'd work my way into his spot.
That being said, I put the over/under at 6 months until we see Brooke Hogan as WWE Divas Champion
ReplyDeleteIn a word? Yes.
ReplyDeleteI remember it being almost a "national holiday" for the Internet WWF fans.
ReplyDeleteOkay, the other 3 I get (Snuka too) but why Bob Sweetan? (in fairness, I would probably say Dynamite Kid too)
ReplyDeleteIn two words: Fuck you.
ReplyDeleteGo home dougie you're drunk
ReplyDeleteSo he couldn't take a cab?
ReplyDeleteNo thanks, I prefer not to get cheeto powder in my hair, and I really hate the smell of shame and despair that follows you around. Thanks for the offer though troll. :)
ReplyDeleteDidn't Dick Slater stab his GF??????
ReplyDeleteWell alright.....
ReplyDeleteAnd this is why you'll never be more than a jobber, losing in Ziggler/Ryder time on Superstars and Main Event.
ReplyDeleteI don't want a Large Farva, I want a goddamn liter of cola.
ReplyDeleteWhen Ryder was getting over with his youtube show and it was starting to cross over to fans at Raw chanting for him Triple H was interviewed at some appearance and asked about Ryder, and he responded with "who's Zack Ryder?" that that snide condescending tone has has. Like he was annoyed that he had to acknowledge this Zack Ryder guy.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if they'd intentionally bury someone they could make money with but I can see them being irritated if the fans started taking to someone they had no use for.
Probably still does.
ReplyDeleteYou can be over and not be a draw. See, Diesel and Hart, Bret.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind his spot either.
ReplyDeleteWhat? Life smarks damn
ReplyDeleteWoo Wooo Wooo
ReplyDeleteLook, I respect Ryder taking initiative with his career and thinking outside the box, but the gimmick was really thin to begin with and got really old really fast. I never saw anything that showed he was capable of going past the schtick either.
ReplyDeleteAnd Ziggler...he's Jack Swagger all over again. Ton of potential, great in the ring, but his voice and promos aren't there and in WWE at least, promos are everything.
He blamed the heart attack on Ziggler giving him stiff elbows? If you can't take a stiff shot without having a heart attack you probably shouldn't be wrestling.
ReplyDeleteHe excelled at self-promotion at least.
ReplyDeleteYou know it!
ReplyDeleteIs it just me, or is that the shittiest catchphrase in the history of wrestling?
ReplyDelete"Money all over him."
ReplyDeleteThe night after he beat Ziggler at TLC, he got a tiny pop for his promo... which he bombed during and only hot a response when he did woo woo woo twice. He was third tier that night, far below Punk and Daniel.
Or it might be slightly more complicated...from HHH here in this interview:
ReplyDelete"But a lot of people weigh in on stuff. Talent weighs in. The agents have to go through the process. I always laugh when the fans or writers say, “It’s so simple; I don’t know why they don’t just do this with the story.” Well, there are 20 factors why you can’t even come close to doing that, from talent going “I’m not doing that” to “I hate that guy, I don’t want to do that with him.”
http://grantland.com/features/an-interview-wwe-superstar-corporate-officer-triple-h/
Ishii is the reason I watch these matches. Dude is a TANK.
ReplyDeleteWho's Molly Ringwald & Ally Sheedy?
ReplyDeleteYou mean, he's going to fist pump all the way to the ring during a Rumble match?
ReplyDeleteZiggler is a terrible, terrible face. That's his problem.
ReplyDeleteThe Nakamura match was the best match of the year until this one, but didn't have a shot to win MOTY. This one however will be in the discussion. This might not have the name value to pull it off, given there's 10 more months to go, but I'd still pull the trigger on calling it a ***** match. There's certainly a handful of years where this would have won hands down.
ReplyDeleteHow could anyone follow this match? Okada would have had to walk out there with a 20 foot dinosaur and a sword the size of Tully Blanchard. So naturally, he did.
Toots Mondt for the Hall Of Fame!
ReplyDeleteI'll sum it up for you. Triple H knows everything. Austin just shot down ideas without contributing. Foley was an idiot who took chairshots to the head.
ReplyDeleteAll hail the mighty HHH...
ReplyDeletehttp://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/157/775/5cbviw.jpg
ReplyDeleteLol winky-face
ReplyDeleteSo stiff! NJPW has so many great wrestlers: Tanahashi, Nakamura, Ibushi, Suzuki, Okada, Goto, Shibata, Nagata, mannnnnnnnn
ReplyDeleteIt's definitely up there at the very least.
ReplyDeleteMan, if only Keith had mentioned it's on Netflix!
ReplyDeleteZach Ryder is not a good professional wrestler. I'm sorry he just isn't. Sure they could have gotten something more out of him when he was hot for 6 months but he just doesn't have it and US title was his natural ceiling.
ReplyDeleteDolph meanwhile is just another victim of Handshaking 101.
I bought this mostly for Bret/Shawn at Montreal and Punk/Cena on Raw. I don't regret the purchase.
ReplyDeleteSomething about too many cooks springs to mind...
ReplyDeleteYeah, funny, that's how Dolph started his singles caree.
ReplyDeleteI'm not talking about the rest of the interview. I'm only talking about that one piece. Is it that inconceivable, for example, that Matt Hardy didn't get a push when everyone was clamoring for it because most of the talent thought he was an asshole?
ReplyDeleteThat's not a bad catchphrase, that's a good catchphrase!
ReplyDeleteAnd if you don't like me...bite me!
It's my sarcasm symbol, for now.
ReplyDeleteAKA "No serious posting here, move on."
Draw? As in "I have to spend my hard earned money to see the Honky Tonk Man" draw? Uh, no.
ReplyDeleteAnd as soon as his act wore thin, which it would have, he'd have heard crickets because he has zero discernable talent.
ReplyDeleteThe MANY sellouts he was part of the main event as IC Champ would like a word with you.
ReplyDeleteSellouts that did NOT need Hogan (or Savage), mind you.
I don't mean to bury the guy he could have been a solid mid card guy but he's so homogenized WWE "Style" with average at best mic skills i can't imagine him rising any higher than where he did.
ReplyDeletePlus Cena is stuck in the "PG ERA". He would probably get much more love if he was an "ATTITUDE" guy with an "ATTITUDE" resume of work.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a fan personally, but def respect the guy, and business probably would not have been as good the last decade without him.
The conversation was "Bryan and Ryder were each put in equally bad storylines, one got over, the other didn't."
ReplyDeleteI always chuckle when starts calling everybody "Jack" when he gets SUPER SERIOUS.
ReplyDeleteWonderful contribution. Trios.
ReplyDeleteI know people like to say that Ryder had limited potential as a featured performer (I'm not so sure I agree but let's just say that's true for arguments sake)...my point with Zack is always, if they had featured him on TV every week when he was at his hottest, given him a few big wins and seeing how he got on...what was there to lose? They have, what? 6, 7 hours of TV every week? Would featuring Zack Ryder a bit more heavily have taken away time from all the other guys they feature that were megastars? Cause I'm not convinced they have 7 hours worth of those guys all more worthwhile than Ryder
ReplyDeleteSo after 6 months we'd have found out the crowd only cheered for him ironically, he wasn't actually that good, he couldn't draw etc. Well, okay. But what a good few months we'd have got out of it until the audience did get bored.
Still remember this show today. You could feel something special happening as it unfolded.. I believe Nitro countered with Kevin nash vs sting for the second straight week, killing another ppv main event for them. Once raw won the ratings the next week, people realized this wasnt a fluke.
ReplyDeleteThat's fair, but it's also fair to look at that roster and say there's no way Zach's a top 10 or even 15 guy, so why bother?
ReplyDeleteWhat the audience thinks is almost irrelevant if it goes against what the Triumvirate has already decided.
Carthago delenda est...
ReplyDeleteOver to you Mean Gene...
Got an idea, now stick with me. How bout next month we develop a shitbag tournament cause it will be March and all? Do 4 regions with the guys seeded 1-16? I smell money.
ReplyDeleteisn't this the one with the weird (but interesting) new version of Hogan vs. André (no cuts, just one steady cam for the whole match)? I read about it, but how's the opinion of those who have actually seen it?
ReplyDeleteTriple H acts like he never once took a chair shot with his hands down.
ReplyDeleteOr an insane bump.
There's a reason one of those H's always stands for hypocrite.
I agree 100% on the dropping the hands thing. It looks stupid AND can scramble your brains.
ReplyDeleteI'm also not a fan of the pseudo-stunt work. I'll always be in the Bret Hart "the art is in making it look real even though it isn't" camp.
still he was booked a lot worse than the Godfather or other midcard guys.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but look at how each lost the title. Ryder lost his due to wrestling injured, and Bryan lost his in 18 seconds after barely scraping by with it for four months.
ReplyDeleteBobby Davis isn't going to be alive forever, WWE.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how Batista felt when Bryan beat Cena clean as a sheet.
ReplyDeleteSo.... wrestling predestination is the new trolling?
ReplyDeleteYou can't produce any evidence on what would have happened... but still trot out the spectre of crickets and tumble-weeds.
Because the trolls are so wonderfully clever as to know what people *meant* to cheer for.
Actually, this isn't directed at you personally - as much as this weird argument about how every possible universe leads back to the one we're in currently ... where the over people are over and the jobbers are jobbers because it was predestined.
who in his right mind ever thought his was gonna be a "main event player"? just look at this thread. most are just suggesting he may have turned out to be a solid midcard guy if they hadn't (deliberately or not) thrown every obstacle ever in his way.
ReplyDeleteand that's feel so stupid. I can even imagine the WWE thinking something along "he must prove he is worthy of a push"... but in reality, that's just stupid. if he makes money for you right NOW (throught merch sales) you don't go out and bury him. that's counterproductive.
Seriously Paul you have jumped the shark so fucking bad you have me upvoting Dougie
ReplyDeleteI was loving it until the PG era as well. Then the Cena love fest basically lasts the rest of the documentary.
ReplyDelete"Only complaint is it should have been longer"
ReplyDeleteThat's what she said!
Even if he was the worst performer in history, if the audience is chanting for him and buying his merchandise, then push the hell out of him.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, if a guy is made to look THAT bad and still manages to move what seems to have been a fairly substantial amount of merchandise, imagine how much money they could have made by NOT treating him like garbage.
Push him, and then if the well runs dry six months later, so be it. But in the mean time, strike while the iron's hot, and grab as much money as possible. Sure, it may have been ironic, or just out of defiance, or even just out of pity, but it wasn't that long ago that the fans were chanting "We Want Ryder" with the same intensity that they chant "Daniel Bryan" now.
Not saying that Ryder's as good as Bryan (obviously not), or that his popularity would have lasted as long (highly doubtful), but damn it, the fans were literally saying "this is what we want and we'll give you money for it"... how do you ignore that? He doesn't have to main-event "WM" or anything, but at least put him on TV!
Yeah, like for example Pat Patterson is talking about Vince's takeover of the territories, and he launches into this story about how Vince would go strongarm these badass old greaseball promoters and threaten to take over, and there would be death threats coming to Pat's house...and then it's just "Yay Hulk Hogan!" right away. And I'm sitting there going "GO BACK TO THE FIRST THING!" There's a whole documentary piece just waiting to be done and it's kind of frustrating.
ReplyDeleteThis comes from a man who carried a sledgehammer but would ram the handle into guys rather than swing it.
ReplyDeleteWell Happy Days got four more seasons after it Jumped the Shark, so prepare for a wild ride sir. A wild, torturous, quasi-philosophical, blood boiling, head shaving, ride.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your analysis of Ryder, but why not let him hit his ceiling for those six months and sell some merchandise instead of intentionally cutting off your nose to spite your face?
ReplyDeleteThat said, he was showing some real improvement during his ECW run, and had that one big, very good match against Ziggler. It's not like he was Giant Gonzalez or anything. Fuck, even Gonzalez (and Khali) got more of a push!
I wasn't sure if there was some weird Canada / USA streaming stuff and with Scott being in Canada and shit.
ReplyDeleteThe Rock doesn't look the oldest at all. If he weren't bald he'd still look relatively the same. Undertaker looks like he could be somebody's grandfather.
ReplyDeleteLOL, I think your bias is showing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there are very many instances of HHH taking a hands down chair shot at all. I'm happy to recant this if you can point me to more than one instance though, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.
The majority of chair shots to the head in general are "protected" by the hands when wrestlers do them. That's not much protection at all though which is why there are now fines.
HHH has taken insane bumps (on rare occasion) but in how many cases did that insane bump fit the match and story they were telling? You can't tell me that a ridiculous stunt for Big show and the Mcmahons vs DX fit that kind of match.
The most miserable period for me as a fan was late 2006-2009, largely because of Cena. That whole period is a blur to me because I've repressed most of it.
ReplyDeleteThat Slam Bang Western Style Rasslin really changed things.
ReplyDelete...he was consistently one of the top merch sellers in the company during that brief period. People WERE paying to see him.
ReplyDeleteI might have to watch this, Ishii is a bad, bad man.
ReplyDeleteGo back to 411Mania
ReplyDeleteYou need to pick up the non-WWE released version of that one... Heros of World Class or something to that effect. Absolutely amazing. I could listen to Gary Hart all day.
ReplyDeleteI've never ever even posted on 411Mania but the fact that you apparently do tells me everything I need to know about you.
ReplyDelete"Even if he was the worst performer in history, if the audience is chanting for him and buying his merchandise, then push the hell out of him."
ReplyDeleteExactly. It's not like Goldberg was polished or being pushed because he was the most talented guy on the roster. He was over like none other and got pushed accordingly.
Ryder absolutely could not deliver in the ring. That's always been my justification on what happened to him. He still can't deliver in the ring. That being said, I loved his quest for the United States Championship. He set a real goal, and won the payoff after being screwed over a couple times. Then I think they jobbed him three weeks later to Swagger and that was that.
ReplyDeleteZiggler on the other hand, I have no clue. Just when they were about to run with him, he got that concussion which completely derailed him back to the midcard, and then down further to jobber status.
Neither was Goldberg. Would you say that he should not have been pushed when he was at his hottest?
ReplyDeletePeople were chanting for Zach Ryder during a Rock promo loud enough that the fucking Rock had to acknowledge it. This is the biggest star this company has ever seen. I'm not saying Zach Ryder should have been the next Hulk Hogan, but he sure as hell should have been the next George "The Animal" Steele -- a goofy midcard attraction you trot out to please the rubes; have him lose big matches (to Savage), but keep him strong by letting him get wins over other guys on or below his level.
ReplyDeleteSo stick him in a tag-team and let him move merchandise. Let Ryder and the newly-repackaged Brodus Clay be a kid-friendly tag team and "Cena's little buddies" for a bit of a rub. Taking Ryder off TV was nonsense. We get non-stop Cena because he "moves merch", but they get another guy who can sell shit for them and he disappears months after his hottest point
ReplyDeleteThe hilarious thing about Swagger beating Ryder for the US Title was that it was Swagger's only singles win in ALL of 2012.
ReplyDeleteCould anyone in the WWF's midcard deliver during the '80s? Could the Godfather, New Age Outlaws, or most of WWE's midcard in the late '90s deliver? The guy is there to open the show by popping the crowd in a sub-10 minute match, that's it. It's not fucking rocket science.
ReplyDeleteAmazing match. That double headbutt was brutal!
ReplyDelete***** Have all the snowflakes!!!
Not to be a dick, but when was Swagger "great in the ring" with a "ton of potential"?
ReplyDeleteI'm not even sure if it is a self-fulfilling prophecy because there are times where they ignore the results of what is truly best for business.
ReplyDeleteAn entire arena getting behind Bryan and cheering more loudly for him than anyone else? Psh. He doesn't draw--no one buys his ugly shirts. Forget about the fact that the most enjoyable moments in the show for the ticket BUYING audience is Bryan's matches. Ride the wave, strike while the iron's hot, etc. Right?
On the flip side of that, what about someone who moves merchandise? Ryder gets his million twitter followers and 100-200k weekly viewers of his YouTube show. Demand for his merchandise increases his line from one ugly t-shirt to someone who was selling about four different tees, headbands, wrist bands, buddy bands (kidding), foam Woo Woo things, fake spikey hair thingies, and one of their single DVDs they were selling at places like Walmart. So, a lower card or mid card act is drawing money--why not try to make more?
What about AJ Lee? According to her at that New Orleans convention, she is in the Top 5 of merchandise movers (her rank moves between 4 and 5 depending on the month). Which means on certain months, she is outdrawing someone like Orton or Bryan with merchandise. Has she had any new development since the addition of Shiesel, Tamina?
So, why is Vince and Company so hesitant with these people and with making money? (Aside: I realize they are more gung ho about Bryan recently and have increased hesitance on AJ lately, so there's some orange-apple comparisons here). Chalk it up to personal bias. There are no logical answers. Pushing pet projects that you have faith in--say, Orton, Sheamus--makes sense to me. De-pushing people who are making you money and generating interest in the product makes NO sense.
I don't post on 411Mania, but you sound exactly like one of the types of annoying anti-Smark know-it-alls that have inhabited that site from when I used to post there in my teenage years to now when I only check out an article once in a blue moon.
ReplyDeleteIt does if your focus is on the strength of the brand versus the strength of the individual. A grassroots reaction indicates that the fans accepted you without the machine getting behind you. But if the machine got behind you, you have the leverage to say "you wouldn't be here if it weren't for the brand behind you".
ReplyDeleteIf their true motivation is that no one feel that they are bigger than the brand so that they don't have any more Lesnars, Lashleys, or even Rocky's then what they are doing makes sense. It sucks and isn't what I'd do at all, but at least I'd understand it. Particularly when it comes to someone like Ryder, who went *completely* out of their parameters to try and get over, using media that they didn't even totally understand to do so.
Disclaimer: not even sure that is their motivation, just putting it out there.
Buh?
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm just realizing most of my points that I thought had enough nuance to them were said by Mears if you scroll down a couple of pages. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteI will agree that he could do all of what you mentioned... but there's plenty of people who think he has main event potential that are just downright foolish.
ReplyDeleteI thought he'd get his revenge on Kane at WM, and then form a tag team with John Cena. But I think that's about as far as you can go with the guy.
... and yes, there's a good chunk of the 80s midcard that could go in the ring better than Ryder.
Wow, never realized that. That makes it much shittier. Even at the time, I was like... why job Ryder to Swagger with zero build up after that really epic win?
ReplyDeleteBut then you added "...after being friend zoned." Which doesn't exist. So I was correcting you on your mistake of what the storyline with Ryder was.
ReplyDeleteComparing Ryder and Ziggler to Punk and Danielson? Why?
ReplyDeleteI imagine they were in a little bit of a conundrum with Ryder. If they pushed him in correlation with his popularity, they'd have a big star (for a brief time) who just didn't have the stuff to back it up. The guy just wasn't as good as his popularity would suggest. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say killing his heat was necessary, but I imagine they thought doing something to level everything out would be beneficial, rather than cater 1:1 with the fans' reactions. I think they did a piss poor job of it, but I don't know if it was outright malice or incompetence as much as people seemed to think at the time.
ReplyDeleteIt's a theory that some people might be leaning towards, especially with HHH's decree that it's his hope that 100% of WWE wrestlers in the future will get their start at the performance center.
ReplyDeleteThe "brand over individual" really places a ceiling on profits yet lowers risks on losses. I still don't think you turn down money. To me, going with the hot hand makes sense more than anything else.
The 80s WWF midcard absolutely delivered; they had to to keep the adults happy. Bob Orton, Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, the Rougeaus and on down the line. WWE now could have an even better midcard. Considering they have 3 times the amount of TV to do they really need a midcard more than ever.
ReplyDeleteIf they have to break up the Real Americans Swagger would MURDER as Stephanie's hired muscle.
ReplyDelete" I still don't think you turn down money"
ReplyDeleteSee, you and I may disagree on some things, but on this - this we will almost always be aligned!! =)
$ell-outs unite
And Foley's fit in with the story he was telling. Mind you, two times they got out of control in the case of the Cell fall in his match with Taker and the chair shots with Rock.
ReplyDelete"Could anyone in the WWF's midcard deliver during the '80s?"
ReplyDeleteCommmmmmmmmmmpletely.
It gets pretty godamn annoying for the last 30 min.
ReplyDelete"In popular culture, friend zone refers to a platonic relationship wherein one person wishes to enter into a romantic or sexual relationship, while the other does not. It is generally considered to be an undesirable or dreaded situation by the lovelorn person."
ReplyDeleteZack Ryder had feelings for Eve. She kissed John Cena instead in front of Ryder, then told Ryder she only wanted to be friends.
I think that's what you would call "friend zoning".
I just imagine Vince being backstage, and he says that not to feed Cole the line, but just as his honest reaction. Like immediately after Cole repeated it he was like "No, dammit, I didn't mean SAY... ah, fuck it."
ReplyDeleteYep. Hart, Mercer, Lowrance, and KVE all are awesome in that one. And NO punches are pulled, at anyone or anything.
ReplyDeleteSeeing the old Sportatorium after it was damaged, but before it was demolished, just mirrors the fate of WCCW so well.
One of the first political slogans or sound-bites - 'Carthage must be destroyed!'
ReplyDeleteWhile speaking before the Roman Senate, Cato would drop that phrase into his speech no matter *what* the issue was (possibly just to catch his breath) since it was also possibly the first recorded 'cheap pop'...
Cato: "Don't worry Decius, I *will* face you on the Ides of March inside that 16 foot steel cage - but I won't be alone! No, I'm going to bring Claudius down from the hills; and together we will whip you and your pack of Egyptians from pillar to post!"
Gene Pertinax: "A bold challenge, bravely stated Cato, but..."
Cato: "Carthago delenda est!"
Roman Populi: "Yea, fuck Carthage!"
"Dolph Ziggler will never be champion/a top guy because his fucking name is Dolph Ziggler." -Both Lance Storm & Kevin Kelly. In the same week I think, no less.
ReplyDeleteRoll your eyes if you want, but I think that's really all it takes. If EVERYONE (fans, talent, management) can't take you seriously b/c of your name or has enough faith in you to NOT give you such a stupid ass name (it was clearly just thrown to him b/c he looks like a smarmy porn star) that sets you up for failure. Which name worked out better, Husky Harris or Bray Wyatt? McGuillicutty or Axel? Flex or Rock? I rest my case.
Remember Foley's line about Chilly McFreeze? Doesn't matter how good he is, a dumb name/gimmick kills them dead. Even if, like Dolph, they have the talent to RISE ABOVE DUMB NAMES, soon as he got a concussion the very same management that doesn't take him seriously enough to give him a good name or gimmick took the opportunity to brand him a hazard and tore him down to the dirt. And he will stay there, one way or another, until he shakes that godforsaken name.
I'm a sucker for old Roman stuff.
ReplyDeleteLOL, you know what, I amend my original statement as I like your version better.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with you on both of your points, actually. But here's the catch - how many different stories could Foley tell that *didn't* involve that? This is coming from someone who used to *love* Foley, but after a while I honestly felt as a wrestling performer (not as a performer in general...my personal highlight was his GM stint) he was a bit one-trick. Not as versatile as say, the multi-faceted and multi-talented HHH*.
ReplyDelete* just razzing ya ;)
Harris or Wyatt: Wyatt got a WAY better character, although in all honesty, Husky Harris IS a mediocre name.
ReplyDeleteMcGillicutty or Axel: Um... trick question? He's shit under ANY name. Boring shit, but still shit. Like a vanilla Randy Orton.
Flex or Rock: Memphis baby, Memphis. (Sidetrack) Although, I could see Rocky Maivia in the Cena role today... "You can't smile enough, Rocky. Kiss those babies, Rocky. Here's your Make-a-Wish schedule, Rocky." The ROCK is stillborn, and the fans eventually tire of chanting "DIE ROCKY DIE!" Instead, his matches get the Cena/Orton or Sheamus/Orton treatment, where the fans entertain themselves while ignoring the in-ring product.
Austin: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the winner of the match... and NEW WWF Heavyweight Champion, Ice Dagger!" (TPIR loser horn)
But you're dead-on about Dolph.
Because they are all guys the fans wanted to be pushed that the WWE didnt. We're not talking about work rate. We're talking about guys that were super over from their own doing not because the wwe said so.
ReplyDeleteBryan and Punk the WWE jumped on their bandwagon. Ryder and Ziggler they did not. And look where those two guys are now.
Yeah Axel is a trick question haha, but really, Axel is at least MARGINALLY better. And let's not forget Baron Von Ruthless.
ReplyDeleteHe likely stood a better chance just being Joe Hennig.
ReplyDeleteI saw that both this and the Triple H docs were added to Netflix, hoping to check them out this weekend.
ReplyDeleteNetflix, you say? What a concept!
New Japan in 2014 is somehow going to top New Japan in 2013. Unreal.
ReplyDelete"Zack Ryder...had money written all over him."
ReplyDeleteno
Those headbutt spots are insane. The goto/shibata one from Dominion last year nearly made me throw up, in the best way possible.
ReplyDeleteThe Chairman of the WWF doesn't take cabs!
ReplyDeleteReading this brings back so many memories. You didn't know what to expect and I mean that in the best way possible. As silly as the Undertaker-Kane stuff sounds, I still love it for all it's campyness. Also, Owen finally won a match. I don't think he's won a singles match since October.
ReplyDeleteThose were all heels except Tito. The role of the heel was generally to lead the match, so it necessitated a decent hand. Conversely, George Steel, Junkyard Dog, the Bushwhackers, Brutus Beefcake (I'll admit, he got okay), Billy Jack Haynes, Uncle Elmer and his merry band of hillbillies, The Young Stallions, Dino Bravo, Ken Patera, etc. The good workers were almost always outnumbered by dead weight that at least could carry a personality.
ReplyDeletewhat if we had had nick flair, rick foley, and stone cold stan austin?
ReplyDeleteor andy orton or don cena
I always thought that was the purpose of enhancement talent. I was watching the Skyscrapers wrestle some jobbers this morning. Spivey and Sid do the worst double clothesline in history and the jobbers does a 720 sell off of it. And those powerbombs were some of the scariest as they just looked like they were straight out of wrestling school. Guess what though. People kept cheering so the NWA kept pushing. Then Vince got Sid and pushed him some more. Then WCW got him and pushed him some more and you get the picture.
ReplyDeleteA guy like Kofi would have been great in the 80s or 90's defending or chasing the IC title against guys like Savage/Rude in the 80s or Hennig/Michaels in the 90's.
ReplyDeleteThat... pretty much happened, almost exactly like that.
ReplyDeletei remember hearing (on the BOD, no less) that kofi hasnt gotten pushed b/c vince doesnt like the long tights
ReplyDeleteWasn't bad in the ring? No.
ReplyDeleteIsn't bad in the ring? It's not looking good at the moment.
They had a really good match on NXT. Now that AJ has gotten a lot better and Naomi has...uh learned how to shake her ass, I'm sure the Mania match would've been really awesome.
ReplyDeleteThis, completely. I used to dig Cena big time...almost 10 years ago. I got dead tired of him a good 6 years ago now.
ReplyDeleteI LOVED this match. Ishii is such a badass. Naito's facial expressions were great, as well. This is what WWE doesn't get anymore: No one in the audience CARES who the face of the company is. Two guys beating the hell out of each other to prove they're better than the other. That's such an easy concept to get behind, even the kiddies can do it!
ReplyDeleteSimplicity sometimes is the better way.
ReplyDeleteYou are a bad person
ReplyDeleteLegit LOL. Well done.
ReplyDeleteYou drunken heathen
Maybe it's the Tony Schivaone thing again where every Nitro is deemed the "Greatest Nitro Ever"?
ReplyDeleteI love a good Skyscrapers squash match. Ugly, nasty and brutal
ReplyDelete"Territorial: The Life and Death of Outlaw Wrestling"
ReplyDeleteAaaand now i'm sad that it'll never happen.
I love that "Kofi does an amazing spot in the Rumble" has become an annual tradition to look forward to.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree. Get to make great money, travel, do something you love, and have no pressure? Sign me up.
Dolph Ziggler IS a horrible fucking name, kudos to him on getting past that with his ring work and character
ReplyDeleteGiven the names and the launch of the network, with all the old school videos available, might not be the worst idea.
ReplyDeleteMaybe take an hour out of the Raw to just throw up old matches you can watch "if you subscribe to the network RIGHT NOW!"
I'd say the ECW doc is still my favorite. I've seen that sucker a lot over the years.
ReplyDeleteI personally think that "Bray Wyatt" is as generic a name as any other mocked WWE developmental name. But the guy has talent and is so into the character that it's scary, so he would have made it work with any name.
ReplyDeleteTHIS. It was after Russo left that backstage got too much lighting and the skits became 3 min long with no believability with the camera.
ReplyDeleteWasn't he on the pre show? They were trying to hype it as important, so they threw RVD on there to give it some oomph.
ReplyDeleteMarketing 101.
I actually dig it
ReplyDeletehe and davey boy could hold the tag titles of some kind, since davey boy allegedly drugged up diana and sodomized her
ReplyDeleteGoldberg is a better worker than Zack
ReplyDeleteIt's people getting excited for good wrestling.
ReplyDeleteA couple things...
ReplyDeleteDat Lariat at 21ish minutes!
This is the best I've ever seen Naito look and if the point was to give him a bit of edge, mission accomplished.
If you show someone the match, don't tell them the ending. As a huge Ishii fan I was into every near fall in the last ten minutes.
WHY WASN'T ISHII ON THE JAN 4 SHOW?!
I've been warring with myself over if I like Goto or Ishii more, and this pushed him ahead. The psychology on the shoulder vs. the knee, and the cohesive story throughout just drew me right in. I was bouncing off my chair at the end.
Nope. The term "friend zone" is a way for men to feel like they weren't in the wrong when they misinterpreted a woman's feelings for them and vice versa for women misinterpreted a man's feelings (but in most cases, men).
ReplyDeleteI know you guys can't understand that concept, but sometimes putting "cute" terms to sexist things is not cute, it's just stupid.
There's nothing really wrong with it, but I don't see it as any worse or better than say, Evan Bourne, Braden Walker or Sami Zayn for example. It's ok, but just... there. Awesome character though.
ReplyDeleteTJ: let's make D-Bry some money. His WWE Shop selection is hot developing world garbage. How about just an outline of him with his hands in the air and YES! on it? Is that hard?
ReplyDelete"you guys"
ReplyDeleteYou post on this forum too, no matter how much you think posting over at NPP makes feel less like a virgin.
Mmmm, the personal insults are just so arousing to me.
ReplyDeleteI always found the Zach Ryder character to be idiotic and impossible to take seriously... And this comes from a former Jersey Shore fan!!
ReplyDeleteI don't know, he made his own character, and he CHOSE for it to be a delusional loser who's thinks he's cool, but is out of touch with reality. It's just hard to give a character like that a serious push. I mean look at Fandango. He's a pompous ballroom dancer, but AT LEAST he has a clear mean streak. He'll snap at you if you prounounce his name wrong. So at least there's a small belief that he can be dangerous. Zach has... nothing. And his finisher looks lame, and his "Broski Boot" looks like a concussion waiting to happen.
Wonderful contribution. Keep on trolling baby.
ReplyDeleteYou'd have to handicap the international division somehow.
ReplyDeleteOnita would win the Coolest Wrestler Ever award. Makes a name in Memphis, brings garbage wrestling with its explosions to Japan, elected to the Diet, leaves office after orgies with government employees and porn stars in his government office, leaves to tour with his rock band. Checkmate.
I'm not sure you actually understand what trolling is. Me pointing out a flaw in your original statement and then having a discussion about said flaw usually is labeled an argument, but you know, trolling since you're the one calling me virgin. Classy.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sap94kw2QnM
ReplyDeleteThis was way more fun than it should be.
You brought a minor line in an entire argument that had nothing to do with my overall point, which had nothing to do with what this entire thread is about.
ReplyDeleteI didn't realize you guys over at NPP were such feminist lesbians.
You, in your post, compared Bryan's storyline to Ryder's. I helped you understand your description of Ryder's storyline was misleading. Sorry I was staying on topic of discussing a Ryder storyline in a post that has Ryder discussion throughout. Didn't know everyone here argued like Caliber.
ReplyDeleteAnd we're actually people who make fun of rapey mental challenged kids. Stay afloat on your jabs.
Gotta agree with Scott, it becomes unwatchable when it hits the PG shit. The endless self-gratification, look at us and our charity work, look how family friendly we are shit makes you turn it off
ReplyDeleteIf Ryder barely scraped by with the US title for four months we might have a comparison.
ReplyDelete"that Matt Hardy didn't get a push when everyone was clamoring for it because most of the talent thought he was an asshole?"
ReplyDeleteThen what's the point of following the motto "best for business" if you're not gonna listen to guy who don't give two shits about how the business does.
My description of Ryder's storyline wash;'t misleading.
ReplyDeleteHe was friend zoned.
Honestly... I'll take storyline-heavy television with short matches that punctuate the major developments, all building toward super-hot PPV matches over tv filled with long matches that basically mean nothing and do nothing to get me excited for the PPV card.
ReplyDeleteThe first half of Hunters is very good. Goes downhill immediately when they spend 30 fucking minutes talking about him and Steph and blowing right by his actual in-ring stuff
ReplyDeletewash;'t
ReplyDeleteAgain, friend zones do not exist. It's something whiny males made up to justify being denied.
He should go with a name like Nick Nemeth.
ReplyDeleteIt's a figure of speech, like break a leg, how can you say a figure of speech does or does not exist?
ReplyDeleteSo who friend zoned you?
ReplyDeleteAnyone know why Vince was wearing a neck collar during the steroid trials?
ReplyDeleteIt's crazy to know that all this stuff is readily available too. I'll be getting the WWE Network, but I'll certainly be keeping an eye out for NJPW shows in 2014. They are the preeminent brand of Professional Wrestling.
ReplyDeleteTo actually answer the question:
ReplyDeleteZack Ryder, as the myth goes, got popular without the WWE's involvement and they buried him as punishment. I really believe it was creative incompetence. They thought they were making him sympathetic when they were really making him pathetic.
Ziggler is much easier to understand. He's got no brain-mouth filter, shittalked Vince's pride and joy mainstream TV show to the media and then capped it off by saying he could beat the shit out of Randy Orton in a dark alley, which is a huge red flag that I'm shocked didn't get him fired outright.
Ryder wasn't a heel though like Bryan was.
ReplyDeleteGot a kick out of this one:
ReplyDelete" If the crowd reacts to you, positively, negatively, if you’re getting a reaction, they’re going to push you. That’s what nobody gets. We don’t tell the fans who’s going to be over. We put somebody on the table, fans react, and then we decide where to go with them. What people forget is we have a focus group every single night, 10,000 people somewhere."
If we considered it a figure of speech, it's only used in a sexist
ReplyDeletemanner whereas break a leg is used for good luck by a vast majority.
A man that's been put in a "friend zone" either needs to be a friend to that girl or move on instead of the slut-shaming that happened to Eve. Friend zone comes with a connotation of sexism and shouldn't be used if you have any respect for the other sex.