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Weak finishers?

Upon reading your comments about Dolph Ziggler in the "killing finishers" topic, it got me to thinking that he's really a guy who would benefit from having a better finishing move. The Zig Zag is fine, but it often looks sloppy and just seems like it's a move that lends itself so well visually to missing, that Dolph almost goes into his matches with the intention of not connecting with it. There seems to always be that one spot in a Dolph match where he'll try for the Zig Zag, his opponent will grab the rope to casually block, and Ziggler will crash backwards to the mat like a doofus. I'm no expert, but consistently building to spots where you whiff on your signature move doesn't seem like the best way to get over (although he certainly managed to, in spite of it).

I remember listening to a Big Show interview a while back where he said that there were a number of people backstage who were campaigning for Ziggler to get the superkick as his finisher. I can't help but think that a move like that would have fit him like a glove and done wonders for his credibility. Thoughts?

And another question: can you think of any potential cusp guys who could have had better runs with a solid finisher? Shelton Benjamin immediately comes to mind, but I'm sure that there are a ton out there.

​I still think that the Stone Cold Stunner should be fair game.  Dude's been retired for ELEVEN YEARS.  There are people who didn't even start watching wrestling until after he was gone!  Someone needs to bring that shit back.

​Anyway, around the time when Austin left, they starting bringing in all these guys who would drive me fucking bugshit because they'd all do the same stupid neckbreaker variations like a bunch of indy geeks.  The worst offenders were Shelton Benjamin as a singles guy, and MVP.  It was like watching two people trying to have tantric sex and falling over, instead of a finishing move that would hurt.  Once MVP switched to a Yakuza kick it was much better.  Too late for him by then, sadly.  Mark Henry also needed a better one, as the World's Strongest Slam just didn't look effective.  Unfortunately a lot of the guys now are limited by their "no brain-trauma-inducing" policies (bunch of wimps...) so there's no more Razor's Edge or piledriver or hitting guys in the head with unprotected chairshots repeatedly.  WE MIGHT AS WELL BE DOING BALLET.
 

Comments

  1. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:00 PM

    I'll say it... The "Go-To-Sleep" looks fucking terrible about 75% of the time. Most the time it doesn't even come close and looks like a whole lot of nothing. It's a cool move in theory, but in practice there is a lot to be desired.


    The Hogan leg drop looked really bad sometimes, when he would bend his leg too much and it didn't even hit the guy at all.


    I'm not sure why the "F5" is supposed to be so deadly. He's basically just pancake slamming the guy. Brock is a guy who deserves something that looks truly devastating.


    AJ Lee's submission finisher looks ridiculous. I had not seen it until a recent Raw, but when she did it, I had no idea what I was seeing.

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  2. If we are talking about weak finisher's, this discussion begins and ends with a roll up.

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  3. I've always thought the "AA" was a weak finisher. Especially for the top guy.

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  4. What you saw with AJ was a thing of beauty.

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  5. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:03 PM

    I agree. The Death Valley Driver CAN look devastating, but he just sort of dumps the guy off his shoulders.

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  6. It served it's purpose of being visually appealing for kids.

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  7. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:03 PM

    No complaints about the view, mind you. Just the nonsensical looking move

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  8. Does the Rocks Sharpshooter count?

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  9. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:05 PM

    It damn well should. Not sure how many times it actually "finished", but if we're including shitty moves in general, it belongs high on the list

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  10. Someone should bring back the Rude Awakening. I always thought it was a sick looking finisher.

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  11. All because of the execution, and his size.

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  12. That ridiculous neckbreaker was also Randy Orton's first finisher IIRC.

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  13. Brock also has that on submission hold. The, don't know if I'm spelling this right, Khamora Lock.

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  14. I feel like there are times it works and times it doesn't.

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  15. The 619 is kind of a weak finisher IMO.

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  16. Paige has a submission that looks much better. They can push her to the moon and AJ can be forgotten about quickly.

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  17. And maybe the wrestlers should wear bras and fight balloons!

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  18. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:11 PM

    Right. The Sharpshooter is an awesome submission, just not Rock's version

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  19. That's a Sharpshooter?!

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  20. When Dolph finished Orton with it, I assumed that would be his new finisher.

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  21. Bret did it best.

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  22. Does Rey no longer do the West Coast Pop/Hurricanrana?

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  23. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:12 PM

    I dig that one because it's just a variation on a real submission guys use in UFC.

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  24. I think his legs are to shot for him to that.

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  25. We need to remember that despite a weak sharpshooter, it was still over, the Peoples elbow was a more over move than Bret's Sharpshooter.

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  26. Technically the F5 is supposed to be an impaler DDT with the benefit of starting from higher and spinning fast. As far as killer finishers go, that's pretty good. When he first came to the main roster and feuded with the Hardys, they made a point of taking it right and it just looked spectacular.



    The problem is that people would die if they emphasized the spike part of the move so it turned to what it is now.


    It could be worse. During Brock's initial run they changed the move into a back bump after Big Show couldn't take it safely and Brock almost legit killed Paul Heyman with one. That version of the F5 just looked awful.

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  27. The super kick should have been his, didn't he win the WHC with that move as well?

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  28. Nah he won with the Zig Zag.

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  29. The kimura is as real as it gets. Combination wrist, elbow and shoulder lock. It makes sense for Brock's character also. Grab onto it and pull and SOMETHING'S going to give depending on how the victim tries to resist.


    Plus I really like the way that HHH and HBK sold the move, they made it look like their arms were really broken.

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  30. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:17 PM

    Yeah I remember the Hardys taking some sick bumps for Brock. I remember Lesnar using the double powerbomb at first too

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  31. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:17 PM

    Yeah, Paige has a decent looking submission.

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  32. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:17 PM

    Yeah, looked more painful than Sting's version for sure

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  33. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:18 PM

    I always dug Scott's name for it...."The Scorpion King Deathlock".

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  34. Stone Cold as a face was really bad. It felt so weird rooting for him again at the time and I guess it was because he wasn't that great looking back at it.

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  35. The visual of Shawn's arm getting snapped helped it a lot.

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  36. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:18 PM

    Rey no longer works matches, period. Because he can't stay healthy, you see

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  37. That actually sounds like a cool name.

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  38. Steph from 01-02 is the hottest woman in wrestling of all time.

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  39. Just a poke of a pinky takes him out of commission.

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  40. And she's hot.

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  41. Stone Cold Stunner???? Should we give someone the big boot and legdrop as well.

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  42. Dolph's superkick didn't look that good, though.

    I don't think the worlds strongest slam looked that bad. Especially since mark delivered it with intensity. Much better than big show or Kane's choke slam.

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  43. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:25 PM

    He started tossing that one around when Rock left to shoot that movie

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  44. There have been dudes who use it but much like the DDT, it's become a transitional move.

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  45. The Immortal Hoke OganApril 25, 2014 at 9:25 PM

    Also this

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  46. The finishing move itself means nothing. Its all about how its sold.

    Hogan dropped a leg and it was still over in 2002. If the Zig Zag won a bunch of matches for Dolph, it'd be a fine finisher.

    The much bigger problem is that finishing moves never finish matches any more. They're just used to make false finishes.

    You can make anything into an awesome finishing move. I mean, Disco Inferno used the Stunner for a while in WCW, its not like that automatically made him a top guy.

    The quality of a finishing move means nothing. Unless its really fucking stupid, like HBK's teardrop suplex when he first went single in1992.

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  47. They could have used it as a promotional tool.

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  48. Best submission move of all time. Yeah, I said it.

    The only one that comes close is the figure four but Flair never really beat anyone with it in his heyday or it was reversed so easily by top baby faces. So when he started winning matches with it in WWE or Miz started submitting guys, it seemed kinda weird.

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  49. I'm surprised that surfboard submission hasn't been used as a finisher.

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  50. No one should take the Stunner.

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  51. I agree with Henry,

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  52. I remember Brock almost killing Albert with the F-5, too. Kinda landed on his head/neck.

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  53. Agreed. I love the WSS. He delivers it so perfectly. Just driving dudes through the mat.

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  54. The best part of that clip is that you can see Tazz in the background freaking out. I don't know how Albert wasn't even minorly hurt there. That was brutal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkAxjDRSgh8

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  55. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:39 PM

    the zig zag looks like it takes more out of dolph than it does his opponent

    and i disagree on the stunner being fair game, reason being that not only is it an iconic move, it's very much a particular move that's not really an extension of a traditional wrestling move. the way it looks, the way it's taken... nothing else even remotely comes close to it that could be excused as a variation. it would be like someone else taking the people's elbow

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  56. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:41 PM

    *the rock's shitty sharpshooter of doom

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  57. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:41 PM

    yeah? well you look like a fruit roll up smacked you in the face!


    /team hell no

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  58. I don't know why nobody's using the jackhammer in major US wrestling. Not just as a finisher but nobody's using it at all. Goldberg's been out of wrestling for 10 years now. Billy Gunn used it as a minor move. Every now and then Daniels would use it, but the move has just been gone for a full fan cycle.

    Someone should get it back. It always looked good when Goldberg would hold a guy up and mug for the crowd, plus it's a move that can be done safely.

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  59. Some tag team maybe the usos should use power and glory's finisher. Not sure if they are allowed to do the superplex anymore tho.

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  60. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:46 PM

    "I don't know why nobody's using the jackhammer in major US wrestling. Not just as a finisher but nobody's using it at all"

    b/c goldberg would never let us hear the end of it. if it wasnt hit or miss in how safe he was, i'm surprised they never gave it to ryback just b/c

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  61. Orton does it sometimes.

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  62. Someone needs to bring back the piledriver as the final resort type of move.

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  63. The double power bomb he hit on Spike Dudley in his debut segment (where he jumped into a match and killed a bunch of jobbers) legit looked terrifying. He smoked the Hardys with them a couple times, too. Pure concussion machine.

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  64. Langston would be a good candidate - he's strong and safe enough where he likely won't hurt anyone, and his current finisher is awful.

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  65. Always HATE the GTS. Looks sloppy. You never know if it's being sold as having connected because it looks the same as when it "connects". Couldn't a guy just put his hands under his chin? It wasn't even ever majorly over either.

    Punk was capable of so much better

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  66. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:54 PM

    will never happen. they're too concerned with head and neck injuries. taker and kane were grandfathered in for the tombstone. i met lawler shortly after wm 27 and asked him if there was ever in consideration of the piledriver being used in his match with cole and he said no since they're so safety-conscious

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  67. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:55 PM

    the set up for the big ending looks like he's boobing his opponents into a state of vulnerability

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  68. "Chartbuster" was such an awesome name. Shame that it was changed to "Last Dance".

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  69. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:56 PM

    your head would assplode if punk had gts'd some people along the way when he literally walked out

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  70. Like Scott said,wimps.

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  71. Me too. Bryan (and others, ie Liger) have brought the surfboard into a dragon sleeper and it looks badass and painful as fuck.

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  72. After breaking the Streak

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  73. Best finisher ever was the 3D

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  74. Not if it's preceded by ENTRANCE MUSIC!

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  75. Only saw someone taping out of the surfboard once when RVD used.


    I'm hate that the Boston Crab is now a rest hold,that's the coolest submission move ever made.

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  76. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 9:59 PM

    i remember one time they hit it and bubba had a leather jacket on, and for some reason the way the jacket was on him when he did his part made him look cool as shit

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  77. The Love-Matic Grampa!April 25, 2014 at 9:59 PM

    After the disastrous attempt to pass the Figure Four off on to Miz, I have no problem with the Sweet Chin Music and the Stunner being "retired and protected" moves.

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  78. Old school Piledriver,simple yet effective.

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  79. I wonder if there would be backlash from a portion if fans if they let someone use the Stunner

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  80. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:01 PM

    last dance and/or the whippersnapper!

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  81. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:01 PM

    i was gonna work in the 3rd thing you really hate but i cant remember what it is at the moment

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  82. I heard on a shoot that Hakus Tongan Death Grip was actually something he'd use on bartenders and bouncers when he wasn't ready to leave a bar

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  83. I always thought it would have been nice if Cena had used the stunner to beat Rocky.

    The section of the audience that love Cena would cheer it, the section that hate him would hate him more because of it and it would fit the story that in order to beat Rock Cena had to steal a page from his greatest rival.

    Plus we'd have seen Rocky sell a stunner one more time

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  84. The biggest star in the history of the business used a leg drop as his finisher. If you have the look and the company's backing, you can get a noogie over as a deadly finisher.

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  85. Tag team finishers are a lost art

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  86. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:06 PM

    random: so much fun could be had with the name of taker's triangle choke - googley-eyes-plata, go-go-gadget-plata

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  87. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:09 PM

    ok, benoit time:

    how exactly was the crossface supposedly used to kill his son? break his neck? it's not a sleeper/choke hold

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  88. Trish and Stacy are miles ahead of her.

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  89. Rock bottom kinda sucked also

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  90. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:13 PM

    i always hated how announcers in the late 90's and into the 2000's would talk about how many titles flair won with the figure 4. only one i can remember is from jarrett in 2000

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  91. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:14 PM

    and its variants the bookend and the franchiser

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  92. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:15 PM

    i'm always surprised that the ref doesnt count the shoulders of the guy going it

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  93. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANApril 25, 2014 at 10:16 PM

    It's okay, but it looks like a big guy move and a big guy would do something more destructive out of the fireman's carry anyway. It's a better finish than Cena's, let's put it that way.

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  94. ARRRRGH THE BARBARIANApril 25, 2014 at 10:17 PM

    Half the company does a superplex, hell, Cesaro does a deadlift one

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  95. Yup. It looked so ineffective, especially against a bigger guy.

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  96. I don't know why that rumor got started. I'm assuming it's a Nancy Grace type thing where someone says something so crazy and wild that everyone just assumed they researched it because nobody would be dumb enough to just throw it out there and then everyone else ran with it.


    Forensics says (to my knowledge) that he was just zombie choked, like strangulation in the movies, grab neck with hands and squeeze.

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  97. How can you tell if you got downvoted?

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  98. Which is a underrated move in my opinion.

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  99. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:19 PM

    a 0 popped up in the "likes" column. i asked about that once on here and that's what someone said the 0 was. it's not there now, though

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  100. Yeah, I don't see a zero.

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  101. Ah. On a cell it seems that a 0 in the likes is the default. Never really noticed on my laptop or tablet.

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  102. Not a particular deadly move but Dr.Death's Backdrop driver was awesome,another guy doing it wouldn't work.

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  103. They pop up on an iPad.

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  104. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:28 PM

    since it's friday night, i feel like there needs to be some show on one of the 3 big US networks showing the latest music videos of the day and reporting on all the latest happenings in the music world, with in-studio and remote interviews

    then we'd see the pledge of allegiance played over scenes of americana, followed by the creepy test pattern and ultimately snow

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  105. Reasons why Zigglers not over:

    1) he's not smart enough to not publicly criticize the company he works for

    2) his name sucks

    3) he's not smart enough to not publicly criticize the company he works for

    4) he's not smart enough to not publicly criticize the company he works for

    .
    21) his finisher

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  106. His finisher should the Diving DDT.

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  107. The Love-Matic Grampa!April 25, 2014 at 10:37 PM

    That explains why he's not being pushed, not why he's not over.

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  108. You typically need some kind of push to get over.

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  109. The Love-Matic Grampa!April 25, 2014 at 10:38 PM

    True.

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  110. You are now officially crazy.

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  111. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 25, 2014 at 10:46 PM

    "You typically need some kind of push to get over."


    that's what the prosecutor said

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  112. The spear/jackhammer is probably my favorite move sequence in wrestling history. Was so awesome

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  113. I always wanted HHH to rename his finisher something like "the burial" or "political stroke".

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  114. The figure four was never really a protected and retired move, anyone other than Flair or Jarrett never won with it and even then it took a while to get submissions with it, especially Flair.


    There was also once a point where every WCW midcarder seemed to use a superkick, and some of the WWF guys, it was during the early 2000s.

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  115. CM Punk should have used his roundhouse kick as his finishers. Del Rio and Bryan should sometimes get pinfalls off their roundhouses, too.

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  116. It's every WWE wrestler's fucking 15 minute match setup for a double knockdown/long 2 count spot. It's a move that should get the odd 3 to build it back up as a legitimate match-ender.

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  117. The police investigating the case said the bruising was consistent with Chris using the Crossface to kill Daniel.



    From a great article from Maxim about the murders:


    "Police were later confused by the bruising pattern on Daniel’s face,
    until one investigator saw footage of Benoit in the ring and realized
    that it matched the application of the Crippler Crossface. Benoit, it
    appears, took his son’s life as if he were an opponent in just another
    simulated fight."

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  118. Why does AJ have to be forgotten? She's arguably one of the best Divas ever on the mic, and is excellent in the ring as well.

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  119. I'd like to see a guy use the roll up when his opponent is distracted by another wrestler's theme music as a finisher since it seems to always work.

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  120. I don't about hottest but Steph was pretty darn sexy from the time she married HHH. I still think she looks good, although it's hard to separate what I know backstage from her looks. For my money I like Stacy Keibler

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  121. Sgt. Slaughter isn't sure about that one...

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  122. The Big Show's horrible looking punch. All of my hatred.

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  123. Austin mentioned on his podcast that he would be cool with somebody taking on the stunner. The only thing is every opponent (looking at you Rock/Scott Hall in particular) who would give Austin the stunner did it SO TERRIBLY. Is it that hard to use two arms when you do it??

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  124. I get why they have them, but most finishers don't really look like much. What makes the Attitude Adjustment (or really, the Rock Bottom) more devastating than a regular suplex?

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  125. Somebody needs to bring back the Rings Of Saturn. Easy to apply and looked awesome.

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  126. I like the idea of anyone else not knowing the "proper" way to use a finisher... stuff like "one hand vs two hand Stunner".

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  127. Tori Wilson also .

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  128. You never pay attention anymore!

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  129. He won a World title with that move.

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  130. Hasn't Bryan used it? Someone has. Not as a finisher though.

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  131. Never thought of it that way, but it can justify it: Austin has mastered it because it's HIS move

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  132. Exactly! Plus when Austin did the Rock Bottom it didn't look as good.

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  133. Iv said for years that the Zig Zag is the worst finisher in the business. Looks like shit, and I still can't figure out how exactly the opponent is getting hurt. It's a simple back bump.
    Big E's can join it as well

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  134. See I wouldn't include the rock bottom. It actually looks devastating as its a pickup and then a driving force into the mat. Austin's selling of it at WM19 is the prime example as it literally seemed it was killing him each time

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  135. I used to think the same thing about Angle's Olympic Slam and to some degree, Brock's F5.

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  136. Worst finisher ever. The #1 thing that wrestling fans need to suspend disbelief over is punches. It's the fakest thing about wrestling. Getting bodyslammed hurts more than getting punched in the face 10 times in a row in the world of wrestling. Yet Big Show (who had an awesome chokeslam) chooses to use a punch as a finisher. Just horrible in every way.

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  137. Remember when Disco Inferno had the nerve to use the Stunner (calling it the "chartbuster") during the height of Austin's run? That's like if some NWA mid-carder in the 80's started doing a big boot and legdrop.

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  138. The problem with the Stunner is that especially with the kick beforehand it's just too synonymous with Austin. It would be a bit like someone adding the People's Elbow to their moveset - weird.

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  139. My problem is the similarity between the Stunner and the RKO/Diamond Cutter... yeah, they're different. But they're not THAT different.


    Also, Austin's stated that he sometimes wishes he could have stuck to the sleeper... handing out Stunners wasn't exactly the most comfortable situation.

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  140. Nope. The truly good get over regardless of push.

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  141. 'Looks sloppy.' Fits with Punk then in general.


    The guy is capable of brilliance, but never stops to remove the sloppy as shit stuff from his moveset. The elbow, the GTS, the springboard clothesline he botched so often that people just went for quick pins.

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  142. To a point... but that point is not very high. If the bookers/company won't give you anything to work with, you'll hit the "glass ceiling" real quickly.

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  143. The super kick can definitely come back. Didn't Dolph pin Cena with that at an old TLC??

    I would love to see the right guy use the code breaker if Jericho decides he's done.

    One of the power guys can use a few of Scott Steiner's transitional moves from the early 90s. The tilt-a-whirl slam, middle rope belly-to-belly throw.

    And I like the world strongest slam. Henry looked like a killer when he did it.

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  144. Yea, because Austin and Rock weren't repackaged and pushed numerous times before they took off. You need a push and company backing ti get over

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  145. The Superkick's one of those moves that could be used by more than one person, and still be as over as anything else.


    I'd love to see Barrett either stop using the Bossman Slam, or make it as his finisher. Preferably the first for now, since he is getting that Bullhammer over. If not him, Big E NEEDS a better finisher, and that one would work fine.


    With the last of the Attitude guys phasing out, the DDT needs to be rehabbed a bit. NOBODY gets to use it, for any reason, for the next couple years. Then it'll be ready to return as a killer.

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  146. Upvote.

    Well saod

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  147. Your_Favourite_LoserApril 26, 2014 at 9:30 AM

    not unlike hogan in '96, i'm 3rd, aren't i?


    :(

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  148. The reverse STO is the stupidest move ever. It's basically giving yourself a Rock Bottom.

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  149. When Cena first started using the FU it was a straight-up Death Valley Driver, but because he was still a little green they told him to do the weak ass slam as it was safer and it just kinda stuck from there.

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  150. I dunno, I've always thought the F5 was fucking awesome. The first time he used it, it looked like the most devastating move ever to me.

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  151. This makes me think of how shitty the sharpshooter looked when someone besides Bret would do it.

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  152. My favorite was the double level of ripoffs, being the Disciple hitting his finisher, the "apocalypse".

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  153. It also kills any psychology in his matches. Why doesn't he try for the punch ALL THE TIME? maybe hit ONE move to stun his opponent, then PUNCH HIM. Zero reason to do another move.

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  154. I see a lot of people hating on the Big Ending and I've never understood why. It's basically an Ace Crusher to the midsection. Good enough for me!

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