This is a pretty good 10 minute affair between HBK and Mankind that occurred on RAW. The surprise return of Rick Rude, along with the appearances of Triple H and Chyna, would lead to the early formation of D-Generation X.
Went right to the heel turn article. Good choices, but (and this might be cause we saw him on Raw this week), I was surprised at no love for Paul Orndorff? In fact I think that may have been the first major heel turn of the Hulkamania Era in the WWF, unless I'm mistaken? It was, either way, the first turn I saw as a fan.
Daniel Bryan talks with, I think Jericho, about the idea of Shawn or someone opening up a true "finishing school" where fully trained guys go and don't even get in the ring, Shawn just talks with them about psychology and performance and stuff like that. I always thought it was a great idea.
I never thought about it but you're so right, NXT is just the wrestling version of the first few weeks at any major company where you watch videos about how fucking great the company is.
This wasn't a David and Goliath match-up, a technical masterpiece, or just trying to scene steal with another flyer...Foley brought out the brawler in HBK, which had never been done before with anyone else who faced Michaels (and any subsequent"brawls" with Jericho and HHH really don't match up, in my opinion). The new dynamic between those two just felt so authentic. They look like they want to beat the crap out of each other and don't care how they do it (and will use anything in close proximity to gain that advantage).
It's kind of a shame they only have this and IYH: Mind Games. Those two could have broken a lot of new ground together.
Yeah, he's still a tweener here until he intentionally smacks Taker with a chair at the next week's Raw. At this point, he's a brash guy who accidentally screwed Taker BUT still hates heels. Notice how he doesn't know how to react to HHH after the pin.
Raw is War week one with the new look used Beautiful People first and it ruled. It also helped that it was a relatively fresh song in pop culture compared to.5 years later on Smackdown
See, this is the stuff that I wish their "road agents" do more of. You have access to Ricky Steamboat and there are guys on the roster who need working on selling and psychology? You have Arn Anderson, Michael Hayes, and Jerry Lawler but you have guys who can't throw a decent worked punch? I'm sure there are a ton of guys on the indy circuit who can do a wonderful Super Flying Tiger Drop but in a lot of case they are guys that can't throw a decent looking worked punch.
But I love the idea of these fully trained guys talking about their matches and psychology and getting into the nuts and bolts of matches and crowds and the like.
What about this? What about guy who WANTS to go to NXT? If this is my chance at the big time, the thing I've been working for all my life and I finally get the call... do I want to rush right to RAW where the potential for me to mess up and get cut is extremely high or go to NXT and make sure that I am ready for the big time and get the chance to ask questions and tighten my game and make improvements so that when I am finally called to Main Roster I have the tools available to me to make the most of the opportunity?
"...any subsequent"brawls" with Jericho and HHH really don't match up, in my opinion). " I agree. The two matches they had were better to me than the ones Foley had with HHH.
Learning is great, I just don't like when Sami Zayn, who is just as good now as he was 3 years ago, just being left there.
Have Devitt, Steen, & KENTA train in the ring until their deemed Raw ready, yes, but don't have them languish on the nxt TV show. These guys have a little bit of cache, don't waste it by branding them B-team.
Now, to me it's the writers who NEED a finishing school of sorts. Educate them about wrestling's past, make them watch successful angles from beginning to end, etc.
I'll always have a soft spot for the Wrestlemania theme, a.k.a. Linda McMahon's entrance music. If she used it on the campaign trail, I'd have voted for her. That is, if I lived in her state. And if I voted.
Every once in a while I read something online that just baffles me and this is one of them. Debut 20 guys at once to an audience the majority of whom are unfamiliar with them, then not give most of them regular TV time, and somehow expect them to get over. I'm just... speechless, really.
I agree with this 100%. I don't think they should be there forever and I agree that bringing Sami Zahn up is long over due.
I would gut the "writers" and bring in wrestling people to book a wrestling show. Hopefully, with HHH at the helm we will start to see an influx of actual wrestling people. But yes, you are right the writers need to seriously educated on the history of the product.
Make them sign up for the network... it only 9.99!!
I think the interesting thing about NXT now is that not only is it the farm system, it is also becoming a brand in and of itself to WWE. This creates a weird dichotomy where (if I'm WWE) I want all the grade-A signings to come through NXT and make it seem like something special, a sneak peak at what is to come.
So yeah, I definitely think there needs to be a NXT (or something like it) because now that it is fleshed out a bit it's going to give the really green guys a chance to work with these establish indy talents at the level where they can make mistakes and learn from them, and the indy guys will be able to learn the WWE system before going out on Raw. I think that's a win-win for everyone involved, honestly.
I can understand some people being upset that guys like KENTA and Devitt are being "demoted," but I think the sink-or-swim mentality of the territories is gone, and what gets over in Japan does not necessarily translate to the U.S. This style of development protects both the wrestlers (by prepping them somewhat) and the investment of WWE by making sure the performers are what the fed expected them to be
You know, when I first started doing the ROH reviews that was the only thing Scott told me to do, outside of that I was totally left to my own devices.
"Wanna be Loved" by Papa Roach has to be among the worst. It's not a bad song (hell, I really like Papa Roach), but an emo-ish song about getting rejected by chicks makes NO fucking sense at all as the opening song for a wrestling show. Did anyone ever sit down and listen to they lyrics before that decision was made?
Also, JR is awesome on commentary. Hell even Vince and King are a million miles better than today. (should go without saying King has fallen far as a commentator)
It's not helping the company that Dunn and Vince are sabotaging everything coming out of NXT. Putting Emma with Santino? Not giving Rose a large entourage and having Cole and Lawler say it is cool? Cutting off Bo Dallas because Vince doesn't "get it"? Not giving Paige much of a personality and just having her win the title on her first night? It's just been one disaster after another if you aren't named Bray Wyatt and he's not anywhere near hot at the moment.
I said it once and I'll say it again, if the problem is they don't think he's drawing heel heat then turn him face. The fans find him likeable and he's basically cutting face promos anyway.
"Sick of HBK"
ReplyDeleteNow that's some lean storytelling right there. Love it.
ReplyDeleteWent right to the heel turn article. Good choices, but (and this might be cause we saw him on Raw this week), I was surprised at no love for Paul Orndorff? In fact I think that may have been the first major heel turn of the Hulkamania Era in the WWF, unless I'm mistaken? It was, either way, the first turn I saw as a fan.
ReplyDeleteWas there a reason for this or was it just a match that they decided to make awesome?
ReplyDeleteI always cringe at the spot where HBK runs the back of Mandkind's head into the ringpost.
ReplyDeleteYeah great call... I was surprised to see him left off as well. It was the first real big one.
ReplyDeleteAny others we missed?
Was that RZA on the Attitude era intros? It sounded like him
ReplyDeleteI just don't understand his refusal to use one.
ReplyDeleteit'll people off his back, has nothing to do with the quality or style of his writing, and it takes 2 seconds to do.
if he doesn't know how he should just ask
Agreed. If any of the belts were allowed to mean anything, it could easily have a "supercard" feel
ReplyDeleteIt looks like the WWE is raiding the best talent from both and putting them on NXT.
ReplyDeleteSo was Shawn a tweener here? Odd that he is wrestling heel but slaps hands with the fans on his way to the ring.
ReplyDeleteGreat post.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Bryan talks with, I think Jericho, about the idea of Shawn or someone opening up a true "finishing school" where fully trained guys go and don't even get in the ring, Shawn just talks with them about psychology and performance and stuff like that. I always thought it was a great idea.
I never thought about it but you're so right, NXT is just the wrestling version of the first few weeks at any major company where you watch videos about how fucking great the company is.
This is not a bad idea at all, wtf there are soooooo many guys doing absolutely nothing in the back that could plug right into this angle.
ReplyDeleteThis wasn't a David and Goliath match-up, a technical masterpiece, or just trying to scene steal with another flyer...Foley brought out the brawler in HBK, which had never been done before with anyone else who faced Michaels (and any subsequent"brawls" with Jericho and HHH really don't match up, in my opinion). The new dynamic between those two just felt so authentic. They look like they want to beat the crap out of each other and don't care how they do it (and will use anything in close proximity to gain that advantage).
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of a shame they only have this and IYH: Mind Games. Those two could have broken a lot of new ground together.
Snme 87-91. Prime Time Wrestling 86-90. Raw is War 97-01. Can't touch these classics.
ReplyDeleteYeah, he's still a tweener here until he intentionally smacks Taker with a chair at the next week's Raw. At this point, he's a brash guy who accidentally screwed Taker BUT still hates heels. Notice how he doesn't know how to react to HHH after the pin.
ReplyDeleteRaw is War week one with the new look used Beautiful People first and it ruled. It also helped that it was a relatively fresh song in pop culture compared to.5 years later on Smackdown
ReplyDeleteBut he hired Rude as his insurance policy for this match, seems pretty heelish.
ReplyDeleteThis format sucks. Without a page break makes it even worse.
ReplyDeleteTo me, he turned heel the night after SummerSlam.
ReplyDeleteSee, this is the stuff that I wish their "road agents" do more of. You have access to Ricky Steamboat and there are guys on the roster who need working on selling and psychology? You have Arn Anderson, Michael Hayes, and Jerry Lawler but you have guys who can't throw a decent worked punch? I'm sure there are a ton of guys on the indy circuit who can do a wonderful Super Flying Tiger Drop but in a lot of case they are guys that can't throw a decent looking worked punch.
ReplyDeleteBut I love the idea of these fully trained guys talking about their matches and psychology and getting into the nuts and bolts of matches and crowds and the like.
What about this? What about guy who WANTS to go to NXT? If this is my chance at the big time, the thing I've been working for all my life and I finally get the call... do I want to rush right to RAW where the potential for me to mess up and get cut is extremely high or go to NXT and make sure that I am ready for the big time and get the chance to ask questions and tighten my game and make improvements so that when I am finally called to Main Roster I have the tools available to me to make the most of the opportunity?
"...any subsequent"brawls" with Jericho and HHH really don't match up, in my opinion). "
ReplyDeleteI agree. The two matches they had were better to me than the ones Foley had with HHH.
Precisely, the advice from every DVD retrospective ever has been "follow your dreams but get your degree."
ReplyDeleteNXT is, or at least should be in a perfect world, the equivalent of walking into Raw with an Ivy League Masters in professional wrestling.
"But Prime..."
ReplyDelete"Quiet Shit-piece"
Learning is great, I just don't like when Sami Zayn, who is just as good now as he was 3 years ago, just being left there.
ReplyDeleteHave Devitt, Steen, & KENTA train in the ring until their deemed Raw ready, yes, but don't have them languish on the nxt TV show. These guys have a little bit of cache, don't waste it by branding them B-team.
Now, to me it's the writers who NEED a finishing school of sorts. Educate them about wrestling's past, make them watch successful angles from beginning to end, etc.
I'll always have a soft spot for the Wrestlemania theme, a.k.a. Linda McMahon's entrance music. If she used it on the campaign trail, I'd have voted for her. That is, if I lived in her state. And if I voted.
ReplyDeleteIt can still work out, especially if he's EEVVILLL..... INDEEEEEDD...
ReplyDeleteThis.
ReplyDeleteHe was the rat guy right?
Schiavone would call it a sidewalk slam.
ReplyDeleteEvery once in a while I read something online that just baffles me and this is one of them. Debut 20 guys at once to an audience the majority of whom are unfamiliar with them, then not give most of them regular TV time, and somehow expect them to get over. I'm just... speechless, really.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this 100%. I don't think they should be there forever and I agree that bringing Sami Zahn up is long over due.
ReplyDeleteI would gut the "writers" and bring in wrestling people to book a wrestling show. Hopefully, with HHH at the helm we will start to see an influx of actual wrestling people. But yes, you are right the writers need to seriously educated on the history of the product.
Make them sign up for the network... it only 9.99!!
I think the interesting thing about NXT now is that not only is it the farm system, it is also becoming a brand in and of itself to WWE. This creates a weird dichotomy where (if I'm WWE) I want all the grade-A signings to come through NXT and make it seem like something special, a sneak peak at what is to come.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, I definitely think there needs to be a NXT (or something like it) because now that it is fleshed out a bit it's going to give the really green guys a chance to work with these establish indy talents at the level where they can make mistakes and learn from them, and the indy guys will be able to learn the WWE system before going out on Raw. I think that's a win-win for everyone involved, honestly.
I can understand some people being upset that guys like KENTA and Devitt are being "demoted," but I think the sink-or-swim mentality of the territories is gone, and what gets over in Japan does not necessarily translate to the U.S. This style of development protects both the wrestlers (by prepping them somewhat) and the investment of WWE by making sure the performers are what the fed expected them to be
Perfectly Put.
ReplyDeleteYou know, when I first started doing the ROH reviews that was the only thing Scott told me to do, outside of that I was totally left to my own devices.
ReplyDelete"Wanna be Loved" by Papa Roach has to be among the worst. It's not a bad song (hell, I really like Papa Roach), but an emo-ish song about getting rejected by chicks makes NO fucking sense at all as the opening song for a wrestling show. Did anyone ever sit down and listen to they lyrics before that decision was made?
ReplyDeleteFoley knows how to craft a match. Him and Bret (yeah yeah yeah, make the jokes) might be the two best at coming up with unique matches when it counts.
ReplyDeleteAlso, JR is awesome on commentary. Hell even Vince and King are a million miles better than today. (should go without saying King has fallen far as a commentator)
ReplyDeleteI would love to see the Vaudvillains come out to attack Mark Henry and The Big Show. I might even pay a lot of money to see that.
ReplyDeleteIt's not helping the company that Dunn and Vince are sabotaging everything coming out of NXT. Putting Emma with Santino? Not giving Rose a large entourage and having Cole and Lawler say it is cool? Cutting off Bo Dallas because Vince doesn't "get it"? Not giving Paige much of a personality and just having her win the title on her first night? It's just been one disaster after another if you aren't named Bray Wyatt and he's not anywhere near hot at the moment.
ReplyDeleteHe was in WCW which was a major promotion. TNA and RoH aren't on that level.
ReplyDeleteAnd now they're feuding, so that's something to avoid!
ReplyDeleteno, i'm talking about his true prime, before wcw
ReplyDeleteThis is the argument I have for not rushing the debut of Sami Zayn, theres the possibility that he'd just lost in the shuffle and over looked.
ReplyDeleteBetter to keep them together than have them stinking up other people's matches.
ReplyDeleteI said it once and I'll say it again, if the problem is they don't think he's drawing heel heat then turn him face. The fans find him likeable and he's basically cutting face promos anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf Ron Swanson doesn't win best character then i'll be like a Philadelphia crowd member if RVD doesn't win
ReplyDeleteI'm not 100% sure about the semantics, but doesn't "sabotage" require an intent?
ReplyDeletebecause for example I really think they assumed Cole and Lawler putting Rose over would be beneficial for him.
Didn't Cole and Lawler shit all over it? Methinks there was a typo in there.
ReplyDeleteI think that would be more of a Radicalz thing, although I suppose you could also say that's what The Shield were.
ReplyDelete