HBK's comeback match in 2002. At the time, there were certain circles that questioned the purpose of the match, and who it helped. My stance was and is the match kicked ass many times over and who cares. When a ***** match is on display, shut up and enjoy it.
SummerSlam 2002 - Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels... by Maxi_AguayoCopeland
SummerSlam 2002 - Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels... by Maxi_AguayoCopeland
This is not a ***** match at all. It was fun watching when he came back since no one knew what to expect or thought the match would suck but watching it now? HBK ignoring the back work is annoying and Hebner is distracting.
ReplyDeleteAlso, by certain circles, do you mean Scott?
ReplyDeleteDisqus notifying me for everything is going to get annoying
One of my top five favorite matches for both guys.
ReplyDeleteScott's up front on how he was down on HBK a bit in the early part of the comeback but by '05 came around with the Angle series and it was clear Shawn wasn't in it for a title run or such but really giving his all. That plus how Shawn was more open on his asshole behavior of the past to win more respect.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, we talk about guys whose careers were marred by injury (Austin was a lot more skilled before his broken neck turned him into a brawler) but still stunning to see how HBK was a better worker with a steel pole in his back than in his youth.
ReplyDeleteA lot of the SummerSlam 2002 card could be part of August classics.
ReplyDeleteThe pre-injury bump that sticks out to me is the Suplex onto the foor in the second ladder match with Razor. I watched the match for the first time in over 15 years recently and literally yelled "oh my god" when he took it
ReplyDeleteAgree, that was insane. Hall pretty much let him go too if I remember correctly? One of those insane spots that never really gets mentioned, but should
ReplyDeleteNot sure about that..Hardly anyone visits the classics part of the blog...doesn't really give them much of an avenue to bitch about the current product.
ReplyDeleteI take ** whole stars off for Shawns attire alone. Really took away from the match.
ReplyDeleteI watched it a few months ago for the first time in forever; I remember thinking back in the day that it was good, not great, but in hindsight that it was an obvious 5 stars.
ReplyDelete15 of the 18 wrestlers who competed at Summerslam 2002 have held a world title at some point in their careers. That's 83% of the wrestlers on the card. That has to be the best percentage of world champions on a pay-per-view, right?
ReplyDeleteNow I'm curious to find out what non-Rumble show has the most former world champions competing.
He did have a rather infamous rant trying to convince us (and himself) that the match basically sucked because it was too good... or something like that. It was talked about in another thread a few weeks ago, someone should post the paragraph again. Was very amusing.
ReplyDeletePoor Dean Ambrose has no hope of ever pleasing you.
ReplyDeleteI feel like we just had a lengthy discussion about this match within the last couple of weeks.
ReplyDeleteOne of the few instances in which we agree.
ReplyDelete5 stars, you're nitpicking a bit too much there.
ReplyDeleteyep, but it was sadly hidden in a huge thread, so i'm glad it's brought up again.
ReplyDeleteWe saw a lot of great technical work from Austin in 2001. I always wondered how much his neck injury really affected his work quality- which, while technically excellent, wasn't high-risk or anything- as opposed to the brawling, shit-kicking style more befitting the Stone Cold character.
ReplyDeleteI hate when people bury this match and then go on to bury Shawn winning the belt at Survivor Series. Two of the coolest moments in wrestling history.
ReplyDeleteYeah, even by 5-star match standards I think people harp on selling injuries too much. Even with serious injuries, pain isn't a constant thing. It shoots through you, it goes away, it comes and it goes. I've had back problems since I was 12 and can't tell you how many times it would get tweaked and be unbearable during a game, and feel fine a few plays later. Going over the top in selling an injury takes me way more out of a match than the opposite.
ReplyDeleteYep, these skeptics need to remember the ADRENALINE that a WWE crowd can give a babyface. F*CK THE PAIN! I CAN'T LET'EM DOWN!!
ReplyDeleteCena trains with Velasquez LOL
ReplyDeleteSeriously, prediction - Cena wins and Rollins cashes in.
BAM.
i'm still waiting for someone to explain why them having a great match was the ultimate sin for which they should be ashamed of themselves
ReplyDeleteMaybe they should have gone the "Bill Watts about Japanese wrestlers on a WCW PPV" route, and purposely dogging it and having a snooze fest to not overshadow the rest of the roster.
ReplyDeleteThe "Holy shit" bump with Double J was the one that sticks out to me the most.
ReplyDeleteIt was no holds barred. Should you be more upset at HHH for NOT wearing jeans?
ReplyDeleteSome wrestling fans just don't like nice things.
ReplyDeletethat time hbk took a crap in church was a "holy shit" dump for me
ReplyDeleteIt's one of the few points where the suspension of disbelief necessary from fans and the interjecting of realism actually merge: real athletes aren't necessarily hobbled by injuries every play for the rest of the game when they get hurt, though they get to come out of the game, have a trainer look at them, get a cortisone shot, etc. Obviously pro wrestlers don't have those luxuries, but it's also not, y'know, real. And the selling point of an injury affecting a match needn't be hammered home with every step they take. Certainly that's the case sometimes, but not an automatic necessity to sell an injury. Revisiting that injury throughout the match without making the match physically/aesthetically less pleasing is not only possible, but this match is a perfect example of it.
ReplyDeleteShawn and his Survivor Series 2002 Shit Pants
ReplyDeleteSuch an awesome match, and JR's commentary helped further make it such. Selfishly, I really wish HBK hadn't retired a handful of years ago.
ReplyDeleteThat seems to be the smark idea of what is best for business. That and overstating Booker T and RVD's importance to the company at that time.
ReplyDeleteMy personal belief with Austin is he saw the type of opponents he had in 2001 (Angle, Benoit, etc.), and said, "Fuck it. I can hang with these guys."
ReplyDeleteI was at Survivor Series and I HATED Shawn winning the belt. It happened on my birthday too.
ReplyDeleteIt just kills the match for me.
ReplyDeleteThis match is one of the lynchpins of the "HBK is the GOAT" argument. How many guys could come back after 4 years off, wrestle a match in a completely different style than they'd ever really worked before (Shawn missed the brawling/hardcore revolution), with a fairly limited worker (2002 Trips is one of the crappier models of Trips), and go 45 minutes without getting blown up, AND turn in a *****ish effort in the process? Just ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteNow then. Yes, it was a great match, but there's mitigating circumstances. First, the greatness of the match was based on two primary things: Shawn Michaels knowing the EXACT moments to make his babyface comebacks, and Shawn Michaels bumping like a man on enough painkillers to tranquilize Anna Nicole Smith with the knowledge that he is never going to wrestle again. The match stood out in stark contrast to the mat-based wrestling surrounding it, and thus seemed different and edgy, even though it wasn't really. The booking was extremely protective of both guys, and the question you have to ask yourself is this: Who does it help? Does it help Shawn Michaels, retired for four years and back into retirement again now? Does it help HHH, already a big star and no longer needing the rub given by Michaels? Does it help any of the guys below them who had to watch HHH sleepwalk through matches with people he should have been elevating and then lecture them about needing to work harder? Notice how HHH gets motivated - wrestling a Clique buddy who he is only all too willing to show ass and sell his ass off for. Does it help the people above them who have been trying for 4 years to get out from Shawn's shadow, only to have him try to steal the show again? What it comes down to is that sometimes a great match shouldn't necessarily BE a great match, when a good one would have done just as well to show that Shawn could still have ANY match, period. I'm not saying that everyone should start deliberately dogging it so as not to show up the main-eventers, but did we really need Shawn splashing HHH through a table and diving off a ladder? The story of the match - Shawn gets his back beaten to a pulp but comes back because he has heart and guts - was enough of a story without all the ga-ga on top of it. Sometimes less is more. And think about this - what if Shawn had done his comeback match against Brock Lesnar and sacrificed his bad back to the bearhug in the name of getting Brock over as a career-killer? That would be a worthwhile goal. This, as it is, was good, but at best served only as an egofuck for HHH & Shawn in terms of usefulness to the promotion. If HHH was really serious about doing what's right for business, he'd go out on RAW tonight and make someone a star, no excuses, no self-serving bullshit non-finishes, no inspirational speeches before and after. But who needs action when you've got words?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU
So you're not a fan of Devon Dudley's seizure sell jobs?
ReplyDeleteTranslation: "Everyone look at me, not him!"
ReplyDeleteThat's another good point: working with Mick Foley, Taker, Kane, Vince McMahon and a still fairly green Rock like he did in '98-99 isn't exactly conducive to technical masterpieces.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
ReplyDeleteTrue story: Once went shopping with wife #1... she tried on about ELEVENTY BILLION pair of jeans and determined each time that they made her ass look fat... at this point I was more than a little disgusted so I told her that "If every pair of jeans makes your ass look fat... maybe the fault doesn't lie with the jeans."
ReplyDeleteI didn't have coitus that night.
I like the concept. The paragraph is a tad long so you might want to break it into a couple paragraphs etc... but I think it is a perfectly acceptable daily, or at least occasional topic.
ReplyDeleteTo be 5 Stars involves nitpicking and finding nothing you'd fix.. If you'd fix something, anything, then it can't be "perfect"..
ReplyDeleteI think there's some sound logic behind Scott's rant on it from the time, he just underrated the match by his own admission because of his dislike of the guys in it and didn't realize that Shawn would be around pretty much full time at a high level for most of the next eight years.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I'm of the belief that everyone should try to put on the best match they can. If it kills the heat for the main event, the main eventers should have done better. Or maybe next time, they shouldn't be in the main event.
You must have been the only one in the crowd that didn't like it.
ReplyDeleteThank you. :)
ReplyDelete(That was Keith's quote from his SummerSlam 2002 recap way back when, if anyone wonders)
No one would argue that Austin's formula 98 and 99 wasn't successful, but I was so happy to see him pull out some of the shit he did in 2001. For as good as he was, I still don't think he gets enough credit for his in-ring work.
ReplyDeleteSo, was Shawn legitimately planning on not wrestling after this one match? And did anyone actually believe him?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I find "Shawn knowing the EXACT moment to make his babyface comebacks" a pretty bizarre knock on a match. It's a great match, in part because Shawn was fucking awesome. Why is that a problem?
ReplyDeleteDid Shawn wrestle another match between this and Survivor Series? Refresh my memory. 2002 WWE is a haze to me
ReplyDeleteAnd bob cut
ReplyDeleteHe did not.
ReplyDeleteThx
ReplyDeleteThe brain is an amazing thing... I couldn't tell you what I had for dinner last night, but I knew what this was in the first few words.
ReplyDeleteI think Scott eventually recanted on this, didn't he? Once he realized Shawn was both back for good and set on doing what was best for business (putting over the Cenas/Edges/Angles/Benoits/Ortons etc.)?
ReplyDeleteI was there too. The crowd still wanted rvd to have his title moment
ReplyDeleteHow often is one person saying both of those things?
ReplyDeleteShawn Michaels is the GOAT. If he came back today, he'd still be one of the best in the world.
ReplyDelete'Hey, we have this photo of wreslters at a pool party. What would make it even bettter?'
ReplyDelete'Let's add a photo from the little-known 2006 DVD release "Hot Backyard Sausage" and make the two stars of said film the focal point!'
best summerslam ever?
ReplyDeletegood, i figured it would be unanimous
So, The Rock will train him to beat Brock & Cena will regain the title & retire. Then, Rusev will kill Rock in an exhibition match after Cena doesn't throw in the towel & Cena will come out of retirement & beat Rusev in Russia & singlehandedly end Putin's reign.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Even if he's more limited in his physical abilities, being able to tell a story has got to be like riding a bicycle to any decent pro-wrestler. And Shawn isn't "any decent" pro-wrestler.
ReplyDeleteThese two had great chemistry but that RAW match where Michaels pins himself while pinning HHH was, to me, their best (stupid finish, though).
ReplyDeleteMakes you wonder what the fuck happened to make their cell match so damn terrible. That was probably Michaels' worst match after 2002.
Brock/Shawn could have been the world's first 6* match.
ReplyDeleteExactly - if the main-eventers can't engage the audience like the mid-carders, then they shouldn't be main-eventers. Austin and Rock still brought it, even after all of the crazy "TLC" matches lower on the card.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I never bought that Rock/Hogan "burnt out" the audience before Trips/Jericho, or Shawn/Taker "exhausted" the audience before Trips/Orton (not to pick on Trips, just two examples that come to mind). The two main-events just weren't good.
Watch the match, the crowd flipped the fuck out.
ReplyDeleteParty time, all the time.
ReplyDeleteIt's been so long since I've seen a D-Von match that I don't even know, honestly.
ReplyDeleteBrock destroying HBK at Summerslam would have been awesome.
ReplyDeleteJust shows how much he was reaching to find reasons to hate it.
ReplyDeleteYep, I paid to see that show at the theatre, and Shawn's comeback match was the main selling point for me. So I sure won't complain about seeing a great match.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't the jeans. It was those boots. Those boots were absolutely atrocious. Ruined the whole match for me.
ReplyDeleteI love Dean's Main Event denim.
ReplyDeleteMy section was filled with HHH fans. All the guys were chanting Triple H and the girls were chanting HBK. I was rooting for Booker T or RVD, I almost left when they were eliminated
ReplyDeleteI was there I know the reaction. the crowd wanted RVD but after he was eliminated the alternative was Michaels so they cheered. the only time the place flipped out was 4 Steiner's debut earlier
ReplyDeleteLance Storm,Test & Goldust for those wondering.
ReplyDeleteI think he had no current plans, just wanting to test out his back and see if he could really still go. The sledgehammer attack gave them cover to either re-retire him or plan a comeback.
ReplyDeleteThe Jericho match at 19 was what made him want to come back more full time.
To each their own, I guess. Someone overselling an injury every single step of the match is what takes me out of it. Like I said earlier, it's a place where art and life intersect: real athletes don't do that with their injuries unless it's too serious for them to continue, and a good in-ring artist should be able to convey that theme of the match without sacrificing its aesthetics by moving at half-speed the rest of the way.
ReplyDeleteObviously it's all subjective, and if someone can sell an injury that severe without sacrificing the actual match quality, then hey, that's great too.
I'm amazed how many "wrestler wardrobe" criticism there is on this blog. With this and Batista's skinny jeans, to Cena's Jorts, and several other things I can't pinpoint right now... What are you guys, high school girls?
ReplyDeleteYep seriously. It's only thing for a face to sell a knee or his back... but selling it without any adrenaline comebacks basically stops him for performing 99% of their moves. Would make the match incredibly boring if they can't 'block the pain" one bit.
ReplyDeleteSomething can kick ass without it being a ***** match.
ReplyDeleteIt's still a MOTYC contender, but a ***** match? I don't think so Tim.
Were people criticizing the clothing choices of people in fake fights. I don't think it's anymore off base than criticizing anything else in a match.
ReplyDelete"At the time, there were certain circles that questioned the purpose of the match, and who it helped"
ReplyDeleteYou might as well just call out Scott by name here. That's like WWE pretending Tensai wasn't Albert.
Too much laying around; they were playing "Desperation fatigue" for over a half hour.
ReplyDeleteThat was the most....flamboyant he's ever looked.
ReplyDeleteI personally didn't mind it. Definitely far from their best match, but I was ok with it.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a 20-25 minute match, it would've been just fine. 45+ minutes was HHH and HBK at their blow-jobbing worst. Well, that and the equally boring Three Stages of Hell match at Armageddon 2002.
ReplyDeleteI was just about to mention that. Are you speaking of the IC title bout at IYH2?
ReplyDeleteI prefer to sneakily allude rather than bluntly call out.
ReplyDeleteHe was right about hhh sleepwalking through other matches though.
ReplyDeleteOnce Shawn makes his comebacks he never sells the backwork again for the rest of the match, so your point here doesn't apply.
ReplyDeleteGee, I must of dreamed up Daniel Bryan making those comebacks in his Wrestlemania 30 matches while STILL SELLING his injuries in BOTH matches.
ReplyDeleteShots fired...
ReplyDeleteWell there's a huge diff between selling a shoulder, and selling a knee or back. The former, at least you can still run and jump.
ReplyDeleteIf only. I'd kill a man for Shawn/Bryan, Shawn/Lesnar, or Shawn/Rock.
ReplyDeleteHHH?
ReplyDeleteYa know, at least I offered some constructive criticism that wasn't riddled with cynical asides and vitriol like calling it a QOTD knockoff or saying it was TS;DR. I was trying to help, and if you don't think the article looks better broken up into paragraphs and don't think my suggestions are helpful, that's upto you.
ReplyDeleteI made it before he died.
ReplyDeleteI gave him the same advice you did but I didn't rewrite it for him like you did because I don't need to desperately seek attention... like was it necessary to mention your degree? Of course not but you had too for some reason.
ReplyDeleteI thought the BLARGH was excessive after the fourth one.
ReplyDeleteI mentioned it, in a self deprecating way for that matter, because 1) I wanted too, and 2) it seemed like something worth mentioning before giving writing advice.
ReplyDeleteWho are you going to listen too regarding advice on your car, some guy who says he knows about cars, or a mechanic. Even the worst mechanic will probably have more experience and know-how than a 'layman'.
Shut your goddamn piehole.
ReplyDeleteGood job Wayne, I like it. It's short and it can bring up a PPV which can bring on discussion and add to slow days when it's not bumping with big news.
ReplyDeleteA lot of us love to bullshit about old PPVs having an individual PPV each day to do so would be awesome.
Keep it as such, just don't start writing 3000 word articles because that's the last thing we need.
For the WWE, I wouldn't disagree. WCW had plenty of shit. A lot of their 2000 posters come to mind like Superbrawl, Slamboree, Great American Bash.
ReplyDeleteWell he HAS been away for 4 years....timing wise he's about due for his comeback match.
ReplyDeleteSeems fair. I'll let myself out.
ReplyDeleteActually, Hogan was seen in WWE when he made a comeback at Raw's 15th year celebration.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah? Daniel Bryan vs. Shawn Michaels would be 7 stars!
ReplyDeleteYou know who should have been added to make that a three-way match? Kwang.
ReplyDeleteHad he made you aware it was a major theme of the match?
ReplyDelete(Yes. The answer is yes.)
Was that the one in which he used a submission hold that heavily relied on using his arms to make Batista tap out?
ReplyDeleteSo in one post, you complain that Shawn stopped selling his back injury while making a babyface comeback. And in this post, you ignore that Daniel Bryan stopped selling his arm injury in his babyface comeback to pull a man twice his size back as hard as he can and making him tap out.
So that's neat.
It's a form of entertainment that is entirely built around illusion and aesthetics, so it's not any sillier than talking about the rest of it.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I love Ambrose, it just feels like his attire is putting a ceiling on him. But it didn't for Cena, didn't for Foley, so if it fits the character then huzzah, I guess.
Also wasn't Scott basically just doing the "don't give big spots to part time acts" argument 10 years ahead of everyone else here? I didn't agree with Scott at the time and obviously since Shawn came back for a 7 year run as the best guy on the roster it looks even more wrong but IMO in the context of the time he has plenty of fair points in there.
ReplyDeleteHe gave it four stars! That's why his I loved it BUT just seemed so petty.
ReplyDeleteI was there too. The Grailspail is right. As I said, having been there, a ton of people wanted Triple H.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Brock Lesnar was a God. People were PISSED he lost.
And then they promptly "Edge" out Rollins, by having him face Cena in his next five title defenses, with Rollins losing by countout, losing by DQ, winning via interference by Kane, winning by a cheap fluke roll up, and finally losing decisively in the center of the ring in a squash for Cena, to give John the belts back. Rollins is then unceremoniously punted out of The Authority by Hunter via the "thumbs down" beatdown, and is relegated to losing a feud with Kane, and dropping to the mid card to feud with the other "misfit toys" that Hunter is tired of playing with, and Stephie is tired of writing for.
ReplyDeleteUGH.
Better start that process then.
ReplyDeleteOf course you don't...your head isn't FAR up your ass like the McMahon's are. Seems to be a familial birth defect, as far as I can tell. Honestly, the majority of the posters here, and on other wrestling boards are far, far more creative (even when they dive off the deep end) than the WWE's hired writers are on their best day.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like the company just needs to crash and burn HARD with Saint Cena at the helm as champion before the McMahons pull their heads out of their asses and realize that the guy is stale, and actually isn't "what's best for business".
Heyman has to throw it, though.
ReplyDeleteI LIKE LA----
ReplyDeleteFuck it. That joke's too old, brother.
You seem very certain of this....and yet. This is John Cena we're talking about here. Knowing the level of "Superman" bullshit he's pulled in the past, I can see them having him come back, shrug off the beating with that same shit-eating smirk, and pin Brock to get "his" belt back. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that the WWE will surprise me with another Brock beatdown on Cena, to send John away for a good six months so he can rest, and so those of us who DON'T care for his stale-ass character can get a break from him. I just don't trust them to do that. Is that a fair enough point?
ReplyDeleteThose two 'different' possibilities (Cena going over and Brock losing) are the SAME THING.
ReplyDeleteI always liked "maybe it's the fat that makes you look fat?"
ReplyDeleteWow really?
ReplyDeleteWell, your comment then doesn’t make sense : “I can’t see [event A] happening, but I also can’t see [event A] happening”
ReplyDeleteIf Nikki doesn't, I'd rather they wheel out Mr. Fuji to do it. That would rule.
ReplyDeleteI like your style!
ReplyDeleteSounds about right.
ReplyDeleteThis is ok because it's short. If you keep this up, keep it short.
ReplyDeleteGet a bit of discussion without wading through a wall of text.
You're a total ass Meekin.
ReplyDeleteCuriously, I think Big Dave beating the hell out of Cena would get him some love from the crowd, as opposed to his last run, where he was positioned opposite the guy that the crowd just LOVED to bits. Draxtista interrupting a Cena promo by walking to the ring and delivering a thunderous Demon-bomb would get a pretty good face-pop, I would think.
ReplyDeleteIf they're absolutely dead set on giving Cena the win, having Lesnar just chuck him through the door or through the cage would be a way to go. Didn't Big Show do that against Austin? Then you'd likely have Rollins cash in, with Ambrose "injured" and unable to stop it.
ReplyDeleteThanks! I learned it from watching you, dad!
ReplyDeletewasn't kurt angle gone by that point?
ReplyDeletei think paul is turning heel
ReplyDeleteso you got a degree in writing without ever learning how to write in real sentences? I call bullshit on that one
ReplyDelete>>Who are you going to listen too regarding advice on your car, some guy who says he knows about cars, or a mechanic. >>
ReplyDeleteProbably the one who would know that the sentence should have ended with a question mark instead of a period.
Or did you skip that day when you were working on your "writing degree"?
the problem: Cena seems to be a freak of nature that comes back from every injury within two months and just manages to film his movies while working almost his usual schedule.
ReplyDeleteto me Lesnar vs. Triple H is by far the ONLY match that's worse than Lesnar vs. Cena again.
ReplyDeleterun Brock over with a car.
ReplyDeletealthough I am sure they couldn't do this because of the rights to the character but I can easily imagine Batista coming back as the Drax character and being cheered.
ReplyDelete