Well, EVERYONE seems to be doing some sort of QOTD type dealies, so while I am waiting for my new cache of wrestling books to arrive (and for my liver to recover) I figured I would pose this INQUIRY to the Blog that I was chatting with some people about: What do yo consider the greatest Intercontinental Championship match of all time? Notice I said "greatest" and not "best." I have always found it comes down to two matches: Savage-Steamboat at Mania 3 and Bret Hart-DBS at SummerSlam 1992. I have always found myself going with the latter, because of a few key reasons:
1. Many people, more often than not WWE canon, cite Mania 3 as the largest wrestling crowd ever (despite the WCW Korean back to backs in the 90's) yet never mention SummerSlam 1992. I say that, just from the plain old eye test, that SummerSlam 92 had every bit as big a crowd (maybe larger) than Mania 3.
2. While Savage-Steamboat was clearly the better quality match, it was not what drew all those fans to Pontiac. That was Andre-Hogan, the biggest match ever to that point. Sure, Savage-Steamboat had a GREAT backstory to it, but it was not the big draw of the event. Whereas Hart-DBS was THE BIG DRAW, and main event, to boot, of SummerSlam 92.
3. Savage-Steamboat did not have a hometown favorite. DBS-Bret did. DBS was over gangbusters in his native land (Although Bret would say he was just as over...I will let you all laugh at that particular pearl of Bret egotism).
4. Bret-DBS may be the best carry job in wrestling history.
Obviously, there are many other great, great, great IC title matches, but those two tend to lend themselves to a particular historical significance in that most casual and hardcore fans remember. So I INQUIRE of you, BOD (Bag of Dicks?) what is the GREATEST (not best) IC title match of all time? Have at it.
1. Many people, more often than not WWE canon, cite Mania 3 as the largest wrestling crowd ever (despite the WCW Korean back to backs in the 90's) yet never mention SummerSlam 1992. I say that, just from the plain old eye test, that SummerSlam 92 had every bit as big a crowd (maybe larger) than Mania 3.
2. While Savage-Steamboat was clearly the better quality match, it was not what drew all those fans to Pontiac. That was Andre-Hogan, the biggest match ever to that point. Sure, Savage-Steamboat had a GREAT backstory to it, but it was not the big draw of the event. Whereas Hart-DBS was THE BIG DRAW, and main event, to boot, of SummerSlam 92.
3. Savage-Steamboat did not have a hometown favorite. DBS-Bret did. DBS was over gangbusters in his native land (Although Bret would say he was just as over...I will let you all laugh at that particular pearl of Bret egotism).
4. Bret-DBS may be the best carry job in wrestling history.
Obviously, there are many other great, great, great IC title matches, but those two tend to lend themselves to a particular historical significance in that most casual and hardcore fans remember. So I INQUIRE of you, BOD (Bag of Dicks?) what is the GREATEST (not best) IC title match of all time? Have at it.
So you want the greatest. Not the best?
ReplyDeleteSantino Marella vs. Umaga.
ReplyDeleteSavage/Steamboat. Always and forever. Saying something else is just being contrarian.
ReplyDeleteSavage-Steamboat is the greatest for sure. I will add that no one ever needed the IC belt as badly as Michaels did when he beat the Bulldog.
ReplyDeleteSavage/Steamboat
ReplyDeleteYeah... I was waiting for the explanation on what the difference was myself...
ReplyDeleteBut was it the BEST?
ReplyDeleteThat one match between Dolph Ziggler and Kofi Kingston
ReplyDeleteSavage/Steamboat is one of the best matches in wrestling history and the very definition of a show stealer. It holds up watching it today, 26 years later.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm showing my age, but the greatest IC title match ever was Tito Santana vs. Greg Valentine in a cage - GREAT back story with Valentine crippling Santana and taking his title, blood and lots of it, and served a historical purpose (Valentine destroyed the belt in the cage leading to the more modern look that Savage/Steamboat/Warrior/Honky/Cody had)
ReplyDeleteBut was it the greatest? Or was it the best? Because we don't want the best.
ReplyDeleteHe wanted the greatest, not the best GOD.
ReplyDeleteOh, THAT one.
ReplyDeleteBret/Perfect, because they put it on so goddamn many DVDs.
ReplyDeleteNobody's gonna say Razor/Shawn from WMX? Not only is it a ***** match, there were TWO Intercontinental Titles on the line (one was the greatest IC title, the other was the best, so it works either way).
ReplyDeleteThat one time they met up was MAGIC. ;)
ReplyDeleteGREATEST, not BEST.
ReplyDeleteGreatest denotes draw, actual match, storyline, etc etc. BEST means just pure in ring, nothing more nothing less.
ReplyDeleteWell there you go rummy. Greatest means all endeavors involved..crowd, heat, draws, PPV, all that fun stuff. BEST means simply the in ring product.
ReplyDeleteYour giving too much credit to Bret vs Davey for drawing that SS92 card. Four matches were announced before it sold out - Bret vs Davey, LOD vs Money Inc, Taker vs Kamala and Warrior vs Savage for the World title. All of those deserve credit.
ReplyDeleteI would probably go with Savage vs Steamboat.
Based on your DX book review, I assume you didn't watch any of Michaels IC title matches because he is a "terd."
ReplyDeleteDid the Bret-DBS match even have a backstory beyond, Davey marrying his sister?
ReplyDeleteAnd that match doesn't hold up well for me. Bret put in a great effort but DBS was pretty sloppy.
And yeah you are giving it way too much credit for the draw. Vince basically booked every Main Event caliber match he had in the bag to draw that crowd.
time to move on.
ReplyDeleteWas Davey hurt or suspended before the match? I don't recall them having any interaction at all, they just cut separate promos hyping the match.
ReplyDeleteThere's a reason wrestlers lined up outside Bret's hotel room to watch that match with him and tell him, with tears in their eyes, how great he was.
ReplyDeleteBut my favorite IC title match is probably Shawn/Razor from WM10, or Benoit/Jericho from Rumble 2001. I found a lot of the 2000-2002 IC matches to be really good but the title bouncing around and the consistent match quality of most of the guys in the division makes it hard to any one match to really stand out.
I would have to go with the IC title tournament finale in Rio. It was a classic match between Pat Paterson and Johnny Rodz. I can't tell you how many times I have seen that match.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, in the UK we were just super-stoked to get one of the 'big four' PPVs so they could have booked Barry Horowitz vs Greg Valentine in a 3 hour iron man match and they still would've packed the house (ok maybe I exaggerated *just a little* there...)
ReplyDeleteSince Davey Boy was our representative in the WWF, the British fans just lapped up everything he did, so it was kind of a 'six of one, half a dozen of the other' situation. Having matches like Warrior/Savage on the card was just icing on the cake.
Also, on the back story, I remember it got all pissy because Bulldog got the title shot and said that in the ring 'he's never even met Bret' whilst Bret was contesting that they shouldn't fight as it would tear the family apart. Pretty good face/face booking I guess because they both had valid reasons for their thinking and it divided opinion, though not in a good/evil kind of way.
Rock vs HHH - SummerSlam - Ladder matchone of my favorite IC title matches ever. The Rock was the last great IC champ but Orton had a pretty good reign with it tho.
ReplyDeleteI think they kept them apart because it'd be easier for each guy to maintain their face credibility once it was all over with and done. They'd had a falling out, but it wasn't a 'blood feud', so it'd make sense that it was more verbal than physical. It was a really subtle way of dealing with it I think.
ReplyDelete"So I INQUIRE of you, BOD (Bag of Dicks?)"
ReplyDeleteDo I just suck on the outside of the bag, or suck them one by one? Do I have to make them all cum?
Any, I agree with LOBSTER head (I'd really like to hear the story about why he picked that name...) and say the HHH/Rock ladder match.
I think it holds up pretty well, though I wouldn't give it ***** like most people do. Davey was a bit sloppy, allegedly because he was up all night smoking crack.
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with the last paragraph though, and I think it's worth mentioning that Savage faced Warrior for the WWF title on that show, a match that would have drawn huge money and crowds anywhere at that time. Plus, as DC5150 below said, a big part of that crowd was just due to the fact that it was the only major PPV held in England (or anywhere outside of the U.S. and Canada that I can think of, besides Kollision in Korea, which was taped months beforehand). If we swap the placement of the IC and the WWF title matches on the card I doubt we're having this conversation right now.
I used to really enjoy Benoit/Jericho from RR01 and thought it was a really great match. But now, when Benoit does the dive and Jericho smashes his head with the chair I cringe and it totally takes me out of enjoying the match. I know it's silly but I can watch other Benoit matches, even though he does the flying headbutt, and enjoy them on some level. But that spot, while at the time of watching it was a holy shit moment, now I look at it as such a reckless spot and a very visceral visual representation of what he did to his body that lead to the tragedy. It didn't lead to a tragedy but I feel the same way about Rock/Foley from RR99, 15 year old me thought it was an awesome, holy shit ending. Now after being older and watching Beyond the Mat, I just can't watch it. I do still very much enjoy Foley/HHH the next year to this day though.
ReplyDeleteTo tie your two thoughts together, maybe Lobster head likes to suck lobster dicks? I don't blame the guy, put a little butter on it and I'll suck lobster cocks all day long. I really enjoy lobster.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzbURUrgQao
ReplyDeleteBTW, lobster overrated and really overpriced. I mean, it's good, but shrimp, crayfish, and crabs make lobster their bitch, taste-wise.
Maybe it's because I'm slightly biased being from the UK, but I always kind of resent the thinking that says "Bret-DBS may be the best carry job in wrestling history".
ReplyDeleteBret has enough of an ego to blow his own trumpet, and just cause he says its so in his biography doesn't make it the true account. I just do not believe you can drag anybody to a five star match, and DBS for all his faults was more than a adequate wrestler.
Besides I'm pretty sure in terms of carry jobs, anyone who has worked with Khali deserves a freaking medal for carrying something less mobile than a piece of wood to any kind of match...
'its a shameful thing, lobster head...
ReplyDeletetoo many limes, too many limes'
I do enjoy lobster but yes it is very over priced and since I watch what I eat the last few years it's not something I eat a lot. I do like shrimp more than lobster though. Crayfish and crabs are good too. You know what is really tasty, shark. Whenever me or my friends catch a shark I can't wait to eat that bad boy.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a movie buff really, so you'll have to explain this to me. Link to a scene, if you can.
ReplyDeleteWhy, is lobster bad for you? I had 3 bowls of lobster bisque today.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you live that you can catch sharks? Fuck eating it, just as a hardcore fisherman I want to catch a shark just so I can say I caught a muthafuckin shark. I had shark once, but it was some store bought crap, not anywhere near fresh caught.
listen to the 1st verse of sheamus's theme
ReplyDeleteI can't say it was the greatest in terms of drawing money or star rating or anything, but in terms of getting just one huge pop from the crowd.....Ultimate Warrior destroying the Honky Tonk Man. That was a great moment.
ReplyDeleteOh, right... I've gotten to the point where I just tune out when I see Sheamus. The time off will probably help him a lot, he was beyond stale.
ReplyDeleteI'd go with Savage/Steamboat because it's one of a few "Wrestling 101" matches that's been referenced for 26 years.
ReplyDeleteAlso, both of the competitors RULE, whereas the Bulldog/Hart match maybe has one that rules.
That's a great match that has been forgotten by WWE for some reason. The best part? The end, when Valentine loses, and destroys the belt like the heel he was, then Santana picks up the broken pieces and holds them in the air anyway. That's pure, honest enthusiasm--no cynicism. WWE doesn't do that well today.
ReplyDeleteSince that's just what those terms mean to you, it's probably best to outline that in your post.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't the greatest carry job in history because the match is enormously overrated.
ReplyDeleteRummy? Is that an insult? A cultural reference I don't get? I'M SO CONFUSED!!!
ReplyDeleteYou have a link to that?
ReplyDeleteI'd like to ask where in the blue hell you buy your dictionaries from
ReplyDeleteAll of this interest of the IC title when it meant something is cool.
ReplyDeleteI go with the WM 3 match, but I do have to give an honorable mention to the HBK/Jarrett match.
Love the end spot where Tito kicks the cage door in his face.
ReplyDeleteJust remember, Mariano saves.
ReplyDeleteToenail clippings.
Two of Scott's favourite ever Raw matches feature Bulldog. None of them feature Bret.
ReplyDeleteI've always loved Bret's wrestling ability but every year I feel more sure that he was a politicising shitbag.
Every top wrestler politics his way up. Every one.
ReplyDeleteNo, the other one.
ReplyDeleteNot that one.
Is the full version even available? When I had 24/7, they only showed the end a few times (either on its own or on a Coliseum video).
ReplyDeleteThere was also the fact they wanted to build to Shawn/Bret with SummerSlam in DC, but they booked Wembley and that's how Davey Boy got the top slot. The Shawn/Bret thing had been brewing since before WrestleMania (he got involved with the Piper feud).
ReplyDeleteI think they knew that with it being in the UK, they didnt need a huge feud to get Davey Boy over. And the PPV draw in the US was Macho/Warrior.
I think "carry" in terms of Bret/DBS isn't that Davey Boy sucked in the ring...it's that he was blown up. You'll see in a few of the restholds (if youre a super smark like me) that Davey is sucking wind bad but to a causal fan, you probably wouldn't notice it.
ReplyDeleteThe more current term of "carry" is what you mentioned, like CM Punk trying to drag a shitty wrestler like Ryback to a good match.
I do find him easier to watch In the last 2 years. His matches are good when against another stiff
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure at this point, the IC title has meant nothing for longer than it meant something. Wrap your head around that.
ReplyDeleteMeant something for about 15 years....has meant nothing for about 15 years.
OBVIOUSLY the answer is Wade Barrett vs The Miz from 2013.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember Macho/Warrior being pushed as the ME for SummerSlam '92 in the build-up. I remember going into the event hoping they would put the IC title match on last but didn't think they'd do it.
ReplyDeleteI never knew that, but then that makes perfect sense considering Shawn got the title from Bulldog not long after and then went on to face Bret at the Survivor Series.
ReplyDeleteCrazy to think how well WWE treated Davey Boy whenever they came to the UK. Though now that I think about it, his loss to Shawn at One Night Only was probably the precursor to the current theme of guys getting whacked whenever visiting their hometown.
Here's an overlooked one: Warrior vs Hogan Wrestlemania 6.
ReplyDeleteI guess that qualifies, right? Plus, it's probably the only big PPV outside of SummerSlam 92 that had the IC title contested in the main event (I think ?)
That could be the case for secondary titles in general
ReplyDeleteThat Jericho/Ray feud had great matches. Also, Edge vs Eddie Guerro
ReplyDeleteGreat question. For me its a no brainer. Bret vs perfect at summerslam 1991. To me that feud/match personifies what the ic title was supposed to be. Great athletic rising stars, having an awesome match. I love the crazy bumps Hennig takes and he made Bret look like a million bucks, and the best wrestler in the world. Also with brets parents being in the building, and the celebration after, it felt like Hart just won the Superbowl
ReplyDeleteDbs was a borderline great worker for sure
ReplyDeleteThey showed it on classics on demand a few times. Amazing match.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question: What was the defining moment that made the IC title worthless? Was it HHH's refusal to wear it as the primary belt of Smackdown? Was it when he consolidated all of the secondary belts into the big gold belt? (which he was holding at the time.)
ReplyDeleteBret's story is that they were going to do HBK/Bret and he suggested a Ladder Match. Vince had never seen it before so they did a dry run at a TV taping (which made it to Coliseum video and a few DVD releases) to show it would be awesome.
ReplyDeleteBut then it went to Wembley and was all for naught. Except to be the first salvo in the HBK/Bret war as Bret got all pissy when the Ladder Match was revived as an HBK showcase in 1994.
All this. I also think Chyna holding it diminished its prestige a little. Nothing against Chyna and her clitoris, and she was a good hot act that was pretty well protected, but giving her runs with it was not a great move.
ReplyDeleteSavage Steamboat.
ReplyDeleteNope. No sir. Never saw the IYH 2 match with Jarrett. Or the two ladder matches with Razor. Nope. Never. Ever. Ever. Listen, HBK is a TURD, but a magnificent, polished, tightly formed coil in the ring.
ReplyDeleteI purchase my thesaureses from the thrift store next to your drug dealer.
ReplyDeleteTerm of endearment?
ReplyDeleteI'd hear your argument on crab, or crayfish, but there is no way that shrimp is superior to lobster. Shrimp is overrated.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. In fact, all of 1999 was pretty rough for the IC title. You had Chyna, The Godfather, Billy Gunn, Goldust, Road Dogg, etc.
ReplyDeleteSteamboat vs. Savage (WM3)
ReplyDeleteRock vs. HHH (SummerSlam 98)
Hart vs. Smith (SummerSlam 92)
Razor vs. HBK (SummerSlam 95)
Razor vs. HBK (Wrestlemania X)
It is also considered one of the best carry jobs because DBS was higher than a fucking kite.
ReplyDeleteRandy Orton fucking sucks.
ReplyDelete...what?
ReplyDeleteA Dozen stoners on this bored and you pick the kid with zero drug stories to use that lame comback on.
If you're going to engage in shitty smacktalk at least make sure you have the right target
That one came to my mind to. The fact that they made it title vs title, instead of IC champ going after the World champ, definitely made the secondary strap seem like a big deal. And the vacation of the title which followed created an ideal situation to elevate Mr. Perfect, so no prestige was lost in the transition.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I feel like it wouldn't have worked out so well if they'd booked Hogan to win and then surrender the IC title, since that would have simply translated to the secondary champ being undermined and no elevation would have taken place.
Yea, the only one I was ok with was Gunn since I thought he would turn into a star (nieve, I know.) And he had awesome theme music
ReplyDeleteHere's the finish: http://www.wwe.com/videos/tito-santana-vs-greg-valentine-intercontinental-championship-steel-cage-match-ju-26117140
ReplyDeleteI saw it years ago on the WW(F)'s old Cage Match VHS tape.
ReplyDeleteHe at least could've made like an Indy/RoH diss.
ReplyDeleteYeah, something like that--work in the word "stream" in some capacity too.
ReplyDeleteBoard. Not bored.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I cannot blame you if you are BORED by my posts.
ReplyDelete