Good evening,
I hope that all is well.
I have a question for you RE: Ric Flair and the tag belt he used as a stand-in for the Big Gold Belt in 1991. I was always under the impression that it was really just a tag belt they gave him, but I recently discovered some photos (attached for reference) that make it very clear that it was actually a custom belt made for him by Reggie Parks. It is in the style of the tag, but with a black banner/stones over 'tag team' and the words 'wrestling champion' as opposed to 'wrestling championS'
My question is, if the WWF went to the trouble and expense to make this belt for Flair (which they were blurring anyway), why use a design fans would instantly recognize as the tag title?
Hope you can shed some light on this one,
Have a great weekend and thank you!
Vince can have a strange attention to detail sometimes, I guess.
My mind is blown. Since I was 11 I always thought it was the tag belt.
ReplyDeleteI remember they used one of the tag belts in place of the IC belt when Mr. Perfect went over Tito Santana in a 1990 tournament for the IC title. I always wondered why.
ReplyDeleteAs Hermes would say "That just raises more questions!"
ReplyDeleteI wish Flair would have stuck around a little bit longer during his first WWE run.
ReplyDeleteI sent this question in, so first, thank you to Scott for replying!
ReplyDeleteAs for the IC title tournament, I think it was because they didn't want to use Warrior's yellow leather IC, so they threw a tag belt in as a placeholder.
Vince is always thinking two moves ahead.
ReplyDeleteWow, this is the wrestling equivalent of Lee Harvey Oswald being framed
ReplyDeleteI always knew the "tag" belt was altered, but where did you get the up close shot of the Flair version? I also thought he used an actual tag belt at Survivor Series '91, as I remember it having the "World" in red font (the black font would not show up until Money Inc. got the titles)
ReplyDeleteOver at the message board Belt Talk, there is a thread on this and other title belt swaps: http://belttalk.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14330&sid=4da95f06d3488d0452b148e39761c149
We need confirmation that this belt exists. Which unsecured loan do you think Flair used this belt as collateral for?
ReplyDeleteThe belt Flair is holding in the top pic is NOT the same as the belt shown below...Flair's pic has a red WWF and red lettering in the world portion...it also appears to have some circular patterns not found in the bottom picture right above and to the left/right of the 3 circles under World...
ReplyDeleteCLose, but not the same...
My girlfriend, having suffered through me explaining what the big deal here is, suggests, "Maybe it was just to appease his (Flair's) ego?"
ReplyDeleteYea, very similar but slightly different.
ReplyDeletehow hard can it be to change the color of the leather?
ReplyDeleteThe real mystery that needs discussed is where the real Big Gold Belt is. All of my research points to Scott Steiner being in possession of the belt.
ReplyDeleteI disagree, I think they are the same belt. You can tell by the 3 dots where it should say "tag team".
ReplyDeleteYea, now im on your side of the fence. Ill just digress and say that I have no idea if theyre the same or not
ReplyDeleteI wonder why they didn't just make a mockup of the Big Gold Belt.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Bret's book Flair wasn't popular in the locker-room. I can't remember but Vince may have taken part in the pissing on Flair's bed.
ReplyDeleteIt's incredibly hard.
ReplyDeleteThe original was bent at the top, They gave a bunch of WCW main event guys copies of the Big Gold Belt. Steiner helped himself to the original and showed up on TV with his copy. The Steiner copy was actually the WCW Championship when the Invasion started. At least this is what my research and video checking has led me to believe.
ReplyDeleteFlair gave Triple H the Vegas Big Gold Belt. It was an old copy he had made in the 80's. The original NWA belt was used almost until the end of WCW, See below about the Steiner theory.
ReplyDeleteUhhh, are we still cool with doing "That's what she said," cause....
ReplyDeleteI never realized there was a black "World" version. Did they return to the red version? I always remember that one, even until the end of that title design.
ReplyDeleteOne of their classic tag belts would have worked too (or at least used as a template for a mockup):
ReplyDeletehttp://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100725154861/ace/images/e/eb/WWF_Women's_Tag_Team_Championship.jpg
It is actually the hardest part. I never used to think so, but in actuality all the work that goes into the leather on belts is more time consuming than the plates.
ReplyDeleteThe closeup is from a replica of the belt we saw on TV, both made by Reggie Parks.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't that suggest that it's probably in a vault somewhere in Stamford?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's actually black. If you look you can see a tinge of blue so it could be the photo making it look darker than it really is.
ReplyDeleteNot if he made the swap while it was still WCW.
ReplyDeleteIt's black. They used a black version of the tags as well (known as the 'Money Inc tags' among collectors, though I believe the Natural Disasters also held them), then went back to the red by the Steiners/Quebecers period.
ReplyDeleteNo idea why they switched... my best guess was Reggie just painted it black by accident, and they didn't bother changing it until they needed new belts.
Though this was never 100% confirmed, Steiner is believed to have had it until very recently. It has since been recovered by Dave Millican.
ReplyDeleteCheck out these photos:
https://twitter.com/TheBigGoldBelt/status/336318415520272386/photo/1
https://twitter.com/TheBigGoldBelt/status/332260484101320704/photo/1
And before anyone asks, yes, the belt in the newspaper pic has been confirmed as the real Big Gold. It has a bend at the top, but is not very noticeable in that pic
Right. There was only one Big Gold belt. Towards the very end of WCW, they made copies for a few guys, but the one Flair had in the 80s was the same belt Hogan spraypainted.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's the weird part. They're blurring it anyway, so why focus on little detail people at home will never see (and I doubt people in the crowd would either) instead of focusing on using something that looks exactly like the tag belt
ReplyDeleteI think it's different types of metal. The original looks like real gold, the WWE version looks like plastic with gold spraypaint on it. I think the original belt is slightly bigger, too.
ReplyDeleteI'm not a major in English, but if I remember correct, wouldn't that be a metaphor instead of a hyperbole?
ReplyDeleteThey did. The "Vegas" Big Gold, which would be seen on camera in 1994 at WCW Fall Brawl. You can see it briefly on the Flair vs. Hart match on the Dungeon Collection too. But I guess that was nixed as it was too similar.
ReplyDeleteWe gotta think of more placeholder titles...the link from Belt Talk that I posted above is a good start...
ReplyDeleteI've read Bret's book recently... yep, Vince literally pissed on his bed (according to Bret, anyway).
ReplyDeleteThey're both metal. The original was made by Crumrine in Nevada. He isn't a wrestling belt maker, and the Big Gold was the only belt he ever made.
ReplyDeleteThe WWE Big Golds were made by JMAR until a few years ago, and now I believe they have went back to Dave Millican. The current Big Golds are made of very high quality material, though I agree that none look as good as Crumrine's original.
There was only one Big Gold belt. Towards the very end of WCW, they made
ReplyDeletecopies for a few guys, but the one Flair had in the 80s was the same
belt Hogan spraypainted and is the same one Dave Millican recently recovered.
The only differences over the years is that it started on a chocolate brown strap, but they releathered it black around 1995 (the color of the leather had been ruined by years of getting covered in sweat, baby oil, etc..)
But White Thunder suggests that WWE was using the original during part of the InVasion. If that's true, then it seems unlikely Steiner would have it, right?
ReplyDeleteI think hyperbole works b/c it would be natural to assume it's a ridiculous exaggeration of how he was being treated.
ReplyDeleteThe original was not used during the Invasion. That was one o the copies WCW had made around 2000. The original disappeared during Steiner's reign, and most people believe he swapped his WCW issued copy for the real one - which was finally recovered by Dave Millican earlier this year.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, I was misreading.
ReplyDeleteI figured as much, but I thought it would be good to post that again as there seems to be a lot of false information and misconception about that particular belt.
ReplyDeleteThe main difference is the Crockett belt had no federation markings at all. The WWE version has the logo on it.
ReplyDeleteI'd have called Hennig and gotten an AWA belt. That was a really cool belt
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of differences. The logo is the biggest, but the current Big Gold and the original Big Gold use different artwork.
ReplyDeleteThe artwork for the original Crumrine Big Gold doesn't have a copywrite (like, say, the other WWE belts which the WWE owns the artwork for), so almost every beltmaker (including Dave Millican, JMAR) have their own versions based on their own artwork mimicking the original.
Because the original was made by hand (as opposed to a mold, like most belts), no version is exactly like it. Crumrine even attempted to recreate it for a collector about three years ago (the only other version of the belt they have ever made), but since there was no mold, even they just did their best to recreate it (and while it was amazing, it doesn't look exactly like the NWA/WCW version either).
The "Big Silver" Belt" would have worked.
ReplyDeletehttp://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/Big_Papi_/awa_t3.jpg
The original is also two-tone (silver with gold lettering) with brown leather which was changed to black later.
ReplyDeletehttp://i.imgur.com/UZy7m.jpg
I believe they are the same. Neither belt has the WWF logo in red (that existed on the Savage/Steamboat-era IC belt), and I'm not sure I see the pattern differences you're referring to.
ReplyDeleteRight, exactly. And the WWE version is all gold on black leather (different leather, too, as the original had white stitching, the new one has tooling).
ReplyDeleteNo, if you increase the size of the picture with Flair holding the belt, you can clearly see it has a red WWF...the picture of the belt below it does not...
ReplyDeleteIt's not red. It's gold. It's just the way the light is catching it. There was never a red logoed version of either the tag or the belt Flair is holding here. The only belt to use the red logo was the Savage/Steamboat-era IC.
ReplyDeleteYeah, IIRC the Observer had a blurb about them being unable to use the Big Gold replica as well as part of the agreement
ReplyDeleteAgreed. Simplistic is the way to go for belts IMO
ReplyDeleteSince at time they did not own the design of the belts, my guess is it's just a generic belt template from whom ever designed it. They probably picked that because of the large main plate like the Big Gold's.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't own the design of their own belts in the '80s/early 90s??? What?
ReplyDeleteNo, they didn't. In fact, that was an instrumental factor in them leaving Reggie Parks in the late 90s, and switching to JMAR's belts - JMAR didn't mind producing WWF owned artwork.
ReplyDeleteI never noticed the brown. It's a shame they got rid of that, because it looks really good. I still love that nobody bother to tell Crumrine Flair spells his name 'Ric'.
ReplyDeleteI liked the later belt better; too bad AWA was a dead man walking by that time.
ReplyDeleteI never noticed how much the AWA and classic WWF tag title belts resembled one another.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111123162038/prowrestling/images/5/5d/AWA_Superstars_World_Tag_Team_Championship.jpg
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/WrestlingCentral/Belt_WWF_Classic_Tag.JPG
The primary difference is that the current WHC main plate is significantly smaller - both in terms of length and breadth, but primarily in terms of breadth. This makes the ridges at the side look 'squashed', and the bottom more 'sloped', if ya get what I mean,
ReplyDelete