Scott,
I've been reading your work for more than 15 years - frightening. I wanted to ask you something that might be a little touchy feely for your tastes, but I'm hoping you'll give it a thought. Though I'm a fan of your work and I wouldn't ask you to change your style for anything, I can say that you will hide behind your intellect and sarcasm when a question has the chance to hit a nerve. I'm asking you to just be honest.
One of the reasons I gravitated toward your work back in the late 90s was your admiration for my favorite wrestler, Chris Benoit. There were a lot of guys on the internet who championed his ringwork, but you were a better writer, and a lot of the times your rants would seem to crystalize bits of thoughts from my head into something coherent in print about Benoit. You saw him for what he was in his strengths and weaknesses - a guy who, in my opinion, is the greatest ring worker to wrestle in North America (Shawn is an amazing entertainer, but you believed Benoit was kicking the crap out of people and getting the crap kicked out of him) but also rather out of his element in the modern era of angles, mic work, and being an accessible personality to put on t-shirts and the like. No, I'm not a delusional fan ala "Stan" of Eminem's song, but as he went along his career, I oddly felt like I'd experience his journey along with you, from all of the brilliance amidst the shit in WCW through surreal highs (the IC title win at Wrestlemania 2000, for example) through unbelievable matches (Rumble 2003 vs Angle) through periods where he was just kind of there (most of 2003 after the Rumble) through the pinnacle at WM 20 (which I consider a perfect match, even from an objective standpoint) and the reasonable success he had from 2005 on.
So now we're six years removed from the tragedy, and I'll still watch Benoit matches, enjoying them more than most any other match I'll watch and wondering the whole time if I was always watching a monster in plain sight. Whatever the horrible chain of events that led to Benoit becoming a man who murdered his family, I'm still left just haunted by the thing. It goes beyond the "rational" stance that you shouldn't have heroes because they can only let you down. Fuck heroes, I just want to be able to look at a guy whose work I like and know he isn't the devil incarnate. I think about how when I'm hanging out with my 10 year old nephew and we watch some wrestling on YouTube, the one wrestler I'd want to show him to show him how awesome wrestling can be is Benoit - and yet I haven't, for several reasons. I don't need you to solve my dilemma over it, because I am (basically) an adult and can deal. But I want to know, aside from humor skirting bad taste (not a judgment, I'd think you'd agree), you deal with that - the guy you admired as a worker coming to an end like that. How DID you feel when you heard the news? I'd be grateful to hear your take.
Jesse
I don't particularly seek out Benoit matches anymore, but I'm fine watching them now. I think there's a disconnect where I don't really associate the person who did the horrible things with the person in the ring, mostly because everything suggests that he really did become a different person in those last days. That being said, I don't really enjoy watching his matches anymore either, and I couldn't recommend using him as an example of in-ring greatness at this point. Frankly I don't know if anyone ever came to terms 100% with what he did, because it was just so hugely monstrous.
I think the curious thing is how the young generation of wrestling fans, the future smarks if you will, will take him. They're not going to have to deal with the absolute shock that we went through, and surely they're going to be interested in the man because his last days were so notorious that his history is more or less scrubbed.
ReplyDeleteWill they be able to enjoy his matches the same way most of us used to be able to?
I've said this a million times, but I still don't feel comfortable watching his work. Unlike Scott, I can't disconnect myself from what Benoit did. I won't harp on anyone who can still enjoy his matches, mind you.
ReplyDeleteOn a related note, I'd heard recently (possibly here) that Eddie wasn't the cleaned-up saint in his final days as we'd thought. That some of his closest friends did what they could to "clean" the hotel room. Does anyone know if there's much truth to that or is it just hearsay?
Still waiting to see proof of what he did.
ReplyDeleteNot saying he didn't do it, but I reserve the right to crucify the man until I see evidence of his alleged crime.
In the grand scheme of things, I look at both Chris Benoit and his family as the ultimate victims of the sacrifice that one may make in their quest to be something in professional wrestling.
ReplyDeleteWise men have always said that a man must know his limitations. If you're going to try and be a star, you can't ever put in the least amount of effort possible or not take any risks because you won't get anywhere. What happened to the Benoits is the absolute worst case scenario if you take it in the exact opposite direction; in that sense, it's the example or the turning point that from then on has and will try to help prevent senseless brain damage and the need for certain pharmaceuticals.
So, I just see the situation as a horrific statistic that's a separate entity from the wrestling character Chris Benoit. A great deal of his matches are timeless classics and I'm not sick of them. What ended up happening is just a sad reminder that if you put your body through that level of trauma and strain and maintain the *exact same physique* from your 20s until 40 or so, etc. you might completely ruin yours and others' lives all for a dream that isn't worth it.
IT WAS A CONSPIRACY, MCMAHON!! THE BENOIT MURDERS WERE AN INSIDE JOB, THE GOVERNMENT PUT UP A FALSE FLAG AND PAINTED THE HOUSE WITH THERMITE PAINT!! SOMEBODY WENT INTO THAT HOUSE, KILLED EVERYONE AND PLANTED CHRIS BENOIT'S FINGERPRINT MARKS ON THE BODIES, AND THEN FED THE DOGS BEFORE HANGING BENOIT ON A WORKOUT BIKE!! I KNOW, I WAS A NAVY SEAL *AND* A WRESTLER!!
ReplyDelete/Jesse Ventura
Not going there, nor did I imply it.
ReplyDeletePeople can down vote all they want but we have never seen legitimate proof that he did what was alleged. Again, it would appear that way, but I'm not going to say so definitively without concrete evidence.
He was boring. All the german suplexes in the world couldn't change that.
ReplyDeleteI look at the entire situation as a tragedy. If you know anything about neurodegenerative diseases, its tough to hold Benoit accountable, AT THAT SPECIFIC MOMENT, since his brain had basically eroded to where he couldnt differentiate reality from delusion. I hold him accountable for the steroids he took that contributed to his downfall as well as not seeking help when he was experiencing earlier symptoms. I view him almost as if I would a distant relative with dementia of alzhrimers...choosing to remember his work with fondness but realizing that they essentially become a different person at the last stages of their life.
ReplyDeleteBenoit was the man. He lost his mind due to brain damage/steroids/pain killers and did something insane. I can easily separate him from what he did and watch his matches. I think wwe should leave his matches in anything they put out that it would be on (as far as airing full shows from that era).
ReplyDeleteThe reason I get annoyed by the wwe white washing him is because what happened was their fault in many ways and by white washing him out they are only trying to duck that blame, not serve any higher moral purpose.
No idea if his friends/family may have removed anything from his hotel room, but a few wrestlers (Konnan, for example) claim that he was still drinking and popping pills at the time.
ReplyDeleteWhether that's true or not, it's almost definitely the steroids that did him in. The guy was just busting out at the seams, that amount of muscle just doesn't belong on such a small frame, and I would find it almost impossible to believe that he wasn't still on them when he died.
Of course, it also wouldn't surprise me if most wrestlers consider steroids "not a drug", at least not in the same way as alcohol, cocaine, and prescriptions. Even if the only thing he was still doing was steroids (but not drinking or doing pills), that'd probably be considered "clean" by most wrestlers, ESPECIALLY Rey and Benoit.
Kevin Sullivan probably did it
ReplyDelete50/50 booking!
ReplyDeleteDude, German Suplexes rule.
ReplyDeleteO.J. Simpson is always shown on NFL broadcasts and was included in numerous video games, such as NCAA Football (HB32) and most recently All Pro Football 2k8 (good game). Not that I am saying Benoit should be included or celebrated but it does make an interesting comparison. I personally only enjoy a few matches here and there. The whole child murder thing is a bit much for me to get over. I do agree the WWE lifestyle contributed to this. I like RVD and Jericho's style which includes taking some time off.
ReplyDeleteI agree. If you know anything about neurodegenerative diseases, there will be symptoms years and years in advance. The idea that his family, coworkers, or wwe management didnt know anything was up is llaughable. DId they know the extent, highly doubtful, but id bet anything they knew something was wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe wwe created the sandbox that the wrestlers played in...highly competitive, being on the road 270 days a years, steroid usage, that expeditated his demise. The environment wwe created created people to turn their head or to think "its not a big deal."
I bet you think walking on the moon was a hoax also.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, RVD and Jericho are at the points in their careers where they can do that. They're big stars that realize that they won't be pushed to the very top.
ReplyDeleteBenoit, on the other hand, wasn't quite at that level. He still wanted to prove that he could be THE man. Hell, he took the move to ECW as a huge insult. He wouldn't have accepted the "older, special attraction" role.
I still enjoy his matches up to a point, but let's face it: part of what made Benoit so great was his willingness to sacrifice his body. You watch him hit ten german suplexes on somebody now, or drop the flying headbutt, or get clocked with a chair while diving out of the ring, and brain damage is all you can think about.
ReplyDeleteAnd actually, that's a good thing.
Disagree. He had zero charisma, but he's the best example of how an exceptional worker can overcome that.
ReplyDeleteExactly. If you want a push you had be jacked. If you wanted to keep your spot you had to be on the all the time. And then your working 100's of matches without health insurance or much guaranteed money. Combine that with disregarding data about head injuries and its easy to see how the wwe killed lots of guys and scrambled CB's brain. I have no doubt some of this is on Vince and this Benoit white wash shit isn't because they don't want to make money off him, its because they rightly fear people looking at/thinking about what happened.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the Benoit tragedy seems closer to what happened to the Von Erichs than the Harts.
ReplyDeleteIf you were about to walk into your house and a guy came out, zipping up his pants, and your wife was lying naked on the couch smoking a cigarette, by your standards you technically couldn't prove she cheated and "you wouldn't crucify her" until you've seen concrete evidence.
ReplyDeleteIt has helped increase some safety aspects so I agree some good came of it.
ReplyDeleteGreat point.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how we, as "super fans", would have felt if it were Foley who flipped and killed his family. Nobody was more glorified - almost deified - for their willingness to take chairs to the head.
I wonder if we'd feel guilty for encouraging him.
Just ask the guy to let you smell his dick!
ReplyDeleteI completely agree on the last sentence. I don't think Vince should necessarily feel like he has blood on his hands, but I think you're inhuman if the thought doesn't go through your head.
ReplyDeleteIts funny to think where we draw the line. Mick has had all kinds of pribl problems due to that stuff but people only claim they cant watch benoit matches
ReplyDeleteRoyal Rumble '99's I Quit might be the most disturbing match ever.
ReplyDeleteI really think its: death. Even when someone gets paralyzed iits kinda in fans mindsets to think "oh, thats just part of the risk. "
ReplyDeleteI was never a big Benoit fan, thought he was a good wrestler, but never gave a shit if he got pushed or not. I don't really seek his shit out, but if I come across it, I have no problem watching it.
ReplyDeleteIn his autobiography, Bob Holly talks about how Eddie was just in constant excruciating pain all the time. He said that when Eddie was the champ, he'd literally be on the training table for hours in terrible pain, then get up and put a smile on his face for the fans and put on a great match, come back after and collapse on the training table for another hour or so.
ReplyDeleteHe was wrestling clean, not clean clean
ReplyDeleteI think everyone is downvoting you because you're fucking stupid.
ReplyDeleteIs this "Jesse" Jesse Baker? If so, the anti-psych meds seem to be working. Coherent email that doesnt involve a Cena heel turn.
ReplyDeleteMan, this just reminds me of how badly Id want a ppv of Vince on truth serum. Id pay ALOT of money for this.
ReplyDeleteRight. Nancy fell, and then his Kid fell. Also, by some crazy coincidence, Benoit fell and got tangled in his weight machine.
ReplyDeleteAsk her to open her mouth.
ReplyDeleteI can watch his matches fine, although I don't seek them out. I don't get personally invested in this sort of thing.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with removing him from footage. I think that should be released as historically accurately as possible.
But I certainly understand why they don't talk about him, or why they won't put him in the hall of fame.
Nancy has family, and their feelings in this case matter infinitely more than anyone else's. The day that her Father says "you know what, screw it, he was a really, really good fake fighter and deserves to be recognized for that!" is the day that can change.
I don't think I had a problem watching his matches, even days after the act. Shit happens, it's sad, you move on.
ReplyDeleteThat's price you pay to look good in jeans though.
ReplyDeleteOh, cool. I'm totally not tired of discussing this topic. Hope we get an email about Montreal next.
ReplyDeleteWhat about a Cena heel turn?
ReplyDeleteI don't mind it, I mean for a lot of people it was really traumatic in a weird way. I mean for me he was one of those guys that never seemed to get the push he deserved, classic underdog kind of thing, got the title, was really cool, then went nuts.
ReplyDeleteIt's a real bummer and still sits with people kinda sideways.
Agreed.
ReplyDeleteI know when I became a father 2 years ago, my mindset changed. Like Scott, I didn't seek them out, but when I was watching an old PPV I wouldn't skip his matches either. Now, I just shy away from them all together. I know everyone is different in their opinion, but to me Benoit is "the guy who killed his kid with his bare hands."
ReplyDeleteTwo points:
ReplyDelete1. Scott's book makes a good analogy of this - Can you separate Hitler the painter from Hitler the jew killer? Once you've committed a grade A atrocity I don't think the body of work from your previous life matters.
2. Billy Jack Haynes thinks everything you wrote is Vince KILLER McMahon's fault.
He did it.
ReplyDeleteI'm really weird when it comes to this subject. I can watch any match before Wrestlemania 20 (all downhill from there), but won't actively seek any out. And I would never be in the "He's the last guy you would think would do a thing like this" camp. Dude was quiet, awkward, and a little twisted (like, with JBL-like stories you hear at times with disciplining other wrestlers) even if he did have plenty of nicer moments with the friends he did have.
ReplyDeleteWhat makes it hard to assess and process is that there's not one thing you can blame. His personality, drugs, brain damage, and a personal life that was falling apart after Eddie passed all contributed to it all.
Honest truth, I was never a fan of Benoit. I found him boring unless in the ring with guys who I enjoyed like Angle, Jericho, Austin, Hart. I always felt the internet fans during his time overrated all of his work because they were fan boys and it was "cool" to like him.
ReplyDeleteHim winning the 04 Rumble was one of the most annoying instances of fan boyism I've ever seen. Comment after comment stating how they had no idea who was going to win and that they were shocked he won. But it was obvious that he was winning the match from the moment he was "forced" to enter the rumble first.
And that "perfect" match at WMXX was good, but again very predictable, and all of his fan boys convinced themselves that they didn't see his victory coming from a mile away.
I used to watch a ton of those murder/forensic shows, my ex fiancée was a big fan (which btw made this past weeks episode of SP hilarious for me). The cops and forensics experts do a ton of work and really leave no stone unturned. I'm sure when Chris left fingerprints, dead skin and bruises on them. All those things can be matched to Chris. And if there was as much as a hair from another person around they would have found it and tested it. You sir are a moron.
ReplyDeleteNot really a "you" problem. More just like one of those annoying "being human" problems.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't even announce it as a murder-suicide right away. Otherwise WWE might not have had a fucking tribute to Benoit that night. I'm confident the forensic crew knew what they were doing.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem separating Benoit the man from Benoit the wrestler. That being said I only like certain matches (like his series of matches with Kurt Angle).
ReplyDeleteI remember when WWE.com posted Benoit and his family were dead, thinking it was a storyline. They posted it hours before legitimate news sites did, probably because they were sketchy of the source. I know that seems bizarre to think it was an just a wrestling angle, but I thought it may be a part of the stupid Vince McMahon being murdered angle. Yes that would seem like a huge low to have a wrestling angle where a family including a child being murdered, but after Katie Vick and hearing about the incest angle with Stephanie that Vince wanted, I thought that any fucked up angle could be possible in the WWE. It wasn't until Raw started in an empty arena with Vince returning from the dead to explain this is real that I truly realized Benoit and his family were dead. Maybe it was just that I liked Benoit so much that I didn't want it to be true. It wasn't even until the next day we learned Benoit was the one who murdered his family. Now I wish it was just a fucked up angle all along.
ReplyDeleteAnyone remember when Jericho got suspended for disrespecting a Brazilian flag or something and posted the Benoit / Jericho vs. Austin / Triple H match?
ReplyDeleteOJ? Most likely, yeah, but according to the law he was found not-guilty.
ReplyDeleteYou brought up Hitler. Argument over.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't mean he didn't do it. It means they could not prove he did it beyond a reasonable doubt. He was found not guilty, not innocent.
ReplyDeleteSuggested reading" If I Did It (Confessions of the Killer) by O.J. Simpson. NFL has no problem pulling profit from O.J. They also have no problem exploiting cancer to pull profit.
ReplyDeleteI'd say what Hitler did has absolutely nothing in common with what Benoit did. You can't even make that comparison.
ReplyDeleteScott will say something like that but he was downright giddy when he re-reviewed his first Benoit match since the murders. I believe it was Wrestlemania 17.
ReplyDeleteYeah, but when did he have his neck surgery (which he blames on the flying headbutt)? I think it was a lot of years ago.
ReplyDeleteOh yea, he did it. I was just explaining that what the legal status of OJ was
ReplyDeleteThat is incredibly sad, now I feel bad for enjoying his matches and wanting to see him continue to put on good matches. I know wrestlers are tough and trained to work through the pain but Eddie should have quit if he was in that much pain.
ReplyDeleteIt's not comparing Hitler to Benoit - the point being made is I don't think you can separate one aspect of someone's life from another once something THAT extreme happens.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you took the time to read it, you'd see it's a comparison that the author of this site made - I'm quoting him.
ReplyDeleteIronically, Hitler had a terrible German suplex.
ReplyDeleteThis wins.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that could be true. But, it's been my experience that a lot of people don't have that problem.
ReplyDeleteHm.
They're shapeshifting lizards, aren't they? Fuck me. I knew David Icke was right!
Its a terrible comparison that makes no sense. Allow me to rephrase my last sentence. "No one can reasonably make that comparison." Ftty
ReplyDeleteYou insulted HBK!!! Now you have to do squats!!! And I am going to do them too.
ReplyDeleteAsk Scott if it makes sense - he wrote it. This is pretty simple to understand.
ReplyDeleteMy children are wrestling fans. My oldest, especially, has started watching old matches and angles on YouTube. Eventually, he's going to find Benoit stuff.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what I am dreading more: the questions about Santa Claus, the birds & bees, or Chris Benoit...
Someone on this blog posted a story about how Verne Gagne recently injured someone in a retirement home, leading to his death. No charges were filled because Verne's mental state is so bad he can't be held accountable for his actions. Benoit's autopsy showed that his brain was a lot closer to that state than someone his age should have been.
ReplyDeleteBut even knowing that, I have no desire to watch his matches again.
Almost no organization on earth is as hypocritical as the NFL. "We care about player safety. Which is why we make you play a Thursday game on only 3 days rest, force you to go to London in the middle of the season to play a game, and keep trying to expand the season to 18 games."
ReplyDeleteit would if there was an IWC around the time Snuka's gf killed herself.
ReplyDeleteI remember thinking that Pillman's death was a story-line - just seemed like something his character would do. I was so upset when reality kicked in a few minutes later.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't have to sign with them.
ReplyDeleteHe could have quit.
He could have been Chris Benoit: Fry guy at McDowell's
The WWE never made him do anything., It was his choice to have the style of wrestling. It was his choice to use drugs and steroids.
It was his choice to kill his family.
That being said, I never cared. I can watch his matches. I never knew him personally. He was my favorite wrestler, but he wasn't some dude i knew. WHen he killed his family, I was like damn... pass the pork chops.
Looked it up on google and found the BoD for the first time.
Disagree on the fanboy thing - as one of his fanboys, I figured he'd be eliminated at the very end of the Rumble. His win there and at WM truly shocked me, much the same way that Bryan's clean win over Cena shocked me.
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, but it is a bit of a stretch. Gagne was in an advanced stage of dementia - I recall reading that he was lucid for barely a couple of minutes per day. Bear in mind that he wasn't just in a "regular" retirement home - he had already been institutionalized in the memory loss / dementia ward. Moments after he attacked the other man, Gagne had no recollection of what had happened. Gagne was no longer there, mentally, when he attacked that man.
ReplyDeleteAt the time of his death, Benoit was still operating as a functional adult, most notably evidenced by the e-mails he sent out to other WWE workers (Chavo, I think?) during his final weekend. The timelines of that weekend, as well as little details (the bible, for example) suggest a methodical series of events, something that would be atypical of an individual suffering from an advanced state of dementia.
This is not to suggest that neurodegenerative disease wasn't a (or the) key factor in some of Benoit's actions that weekend. I understand that there is a high correlation between brain injury and severe depression (which is likely related to the abnormally high suicide rates of ex-wrestlers, football players, boxers and NHL fighters) and other types of mental illness. The physical state of Benoit's brain had to have contributed to the toxic stew inside of him
that led him to murder his family. We don't know how much, though, and likely never will.
Anyway, my point is that you can't just compare him to a senior in an advanced state of dementia. Verne Gagne's mental state before, during, and after the attack absolve him of any moral culpability in the poor old man's death. There isn't nearly enough evidence about Benoit's mental state to give him such a pass when it comes to his wife and child.
it wasn't that we were fooled, it was that that we thought they wouldn't actually let Benoit go over on such a big stage... twice.
ReplyDeleteWe were already ready to just accept that Benoit would have a strong showing at the Rumble and HOLY FUCKING SHIT HE WON! HE FUCKING WON!!!!
Okay, he won the Rumble and now is going to WM, but this is 3way with HBK and reign of terror HHH ain't no way that OMFG!! HE MADE HHH TAPEOUT! HE WON A-FUCKING-GAIN!!!! HOLY FUCKING TITTY SPRINKLES!!!
Could not agree more.
ReplyDeleteI remember being bummed they were all dead, then shocked it was Benoit that killed them. It was like a double whammy of sadness.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite is: "You said the 'n word' at a concert? That's a fine and sensitivity classes! GO REDSKINS!"
ReplyDeleteAnd Mike was what? Fourth-most famous? (Behind David, Kerry, and Kevin)
ReplyDeleteIf his style was slower and less impact heavy I don't think watching his matches now would be difficult, but since he threw his skull at things so regularly it's impossible now to watch those him without thinking "Was that the shot that finally broke him? Or that one? Or that one? Or that one?"
ReplyDelete(near) Zero mic skills, but a little charisma, even if not in the "traditional" sense.
ReplyDeleteNothing suggests that you have to participate in the discussion of this topic or to even read the email so you can probably stop bitching about it now.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your service.
ReplyDeletehe had match chrisma
ReplyDeletei appreciate benoit's inclusion as part of the entire package (e.g., an ep of nitro, a whole ppv), and feel like the flow of the show as a whole is disrupted when his matches, promos, or references to him are removed (whenever there is a spot of silence in any match, regardless of company or time period, i always jokingly think 'they must be talking abut benoit'). when i watch those matches, etc. theres definitely an asterisk of sorts on my experience, but i can watch them.
ReplyDeletebut like a lot of people have said, i dont seek out benoit matches in particular. then again, i dont do that in general with anyone. so if there was a benoit match i hadnt seen on 24/7 in the shorties section as a stand-alone, i'd still watch it
I thought Benoit had many amazing matches. However, he was worse on the Mic than even Colin Delany. I guess whether or not you like Benoit or not depends on if you prefer the technical aspect of wrestling or the spectacle.
ReplyDelete'He could have been Chris Benoit: Fry guy at McDowell's'
ReplyDeletei love eating at mcdowell's! i always order extra ultra violence. they have pretty good clockwork orange juice with the droogie breakfast sandwich
do people hold verne gagne accountable for killing his roommate? or do they look at it as a tragedy related to his alzheimers?
ReplyDeleteverne was 80 years-old when it happened. he is an alzheimers patient.
the doc said that benoit had the brain of an 80 year-old alzheimers paitent.
food* for thought
*which is relevant if youre the ecw zombie. braaaaaaaaaaaaaainsssssssss. see its all about rasslin'
yeah... "killed herself"
ReplyDeleteI love the technical aspect of wrestling, my favorite ever is Bret, I just never cared for Benoit
ReplyDelete'the questions about Santa Claus'
ReplyDeletejust tell him austin really didnt hurt santa, that santa really isnt michael hayes, and that alberto del rio didnt mean to hit santa with his car
you can, however, tell him the truth about xanta
It isn't nearly as simple as that. I replied to the earlier Gagne comparison below. Benoit's actions that weekend do not suggest an advanced state of dementia as Gagne was suffering from.
ReplyDeleteexactly.
ReplyDeleteIm going to need you to change your name...its hard me to write "I agree with Satan..." with a straight face.
ReplyDeleteI still think Benoit goes over in a zombie battle royal tho. Hes got the ultimate heel in his corner...the devil.
ReplyDeleteWell, he was really Austrian.
ReplyDeleteThe saying goes "a man can build a thousand bridges, but suck one cock...and he's no longer a bridge builder, he's a cocksucker."
ReplyDeleteThat theory applies here, to me anyhow. Anything I enjoyed that he was part of is now something I don't enjoy watching. I don't look at him as "The Rabid Wolverine" anymore. I see an asshole that killed his wife and son. He isn't a wrestler to me, he's a killer.
You are absolutely insane
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infowars.com go read some stuff there and you will find they are abundant
ReplyDeleteDon't be sorry. I think you summed up how a lot of us feel.
ReplyDeleteWe grew up thinking that, since wrestling is semi-fake, the wrestlers didn't really get hurt. Then we start hearing about broken bones, but those are "only" broken bones, so no biggie.
And now we know about concussions and brain damage and Benoit and Mick, and we really don't ever want to see a chair shot again.
But in the Attitude/extreme era, chair shots were AMAZING. I'm not ashamed to say that I appreciated how cool a good chair shot was in the right spot, though I didn't think about the consequences at the time.
Sorry, I disagree.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with that any of this is on Vince or the company's head.
You just wrote "If you wanted a push, you had to be jacked"
YOU.
You are making that choice to change your body for greener pastures. Not Vince. You are choosing to to go the fast route and take shortcuts.
And it isn't even guaranteed that steroids = push. For the Hogans, Lugers, and Warriors that got the shove, there are the Dino Bravos, Warlords, and Hercules's that were on the juice and didn't get pushed.
There's a reason why he keeps getting off when going to trial. Couple of reasons. The general public doesn't care enough about wrestling and Vince throws down the "indy contractor" card. Since he doesn't have them on insurance plans, what they do, is what they do. So the onus is completely on them.
They are choosing to take that risk to inject shit into their bodies. Why should the consequence be at Vince's feet when someone drops?
Hey, thanks. I appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteFollowing the topic of chair shots, I have a Best of SNME DVD that includes a match where Savage took a single chair shot to the head and he was just DONE for the remainder of the contest. I'm pretty sure it was a tag match of some kind; I'd have to go back and find it for the details. As I watched, I remember thinking how the perception of chair shots has evolved. We went from where that was the accepted mindset to the mentioned Royal Rumble I Quit match with Rock and Foley, and now they're just not allowed. It's an interesting topic to consider.
I have never liked the OJ analogy... OJ, according to our legal system at least didn't kill Nicole so NFL would have to say "A jury found him innocent, we find him guilty" to do the same thing WWE has done to Benoit.
ReplyDeleteI'm a horrible human being, because now I want to see this Savage match.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't get the reference. :(
ReplyDeleteWell you gotta be the first fan of technical wrestling I've ever met who didn't care for Benoit (family murder issues excluded). I guess that makes you pretty unique.
ReplyDeleteNot everyone who juiced got pushed. But everyone who got pushed was juicing. So you had to try. How many top guys have they had that didn't get there by juicing. (Hbk might not have during round 2 but no way he wasn't in 1995). So Vince created an atmosphere where you juiced. And everything I've ever read said in the 80's, 90's the 00's and even today pills are a huge part of wwe locker room culture. I agree it was everyone's choice and they were all grown men who could decide for themselves. But Vince set the game up that way and buried guys who wouldn't juice or didn't work through injuries. If a real pro sport operated that way america would go nuts. If what Vince did got too much main stream pub and was really discussed by the public (do we want this/is it worth the risk) all bets are off on the wwes future.
ReplyDeleteSame here. I stopped watching for nearly 4 years because of what happened. The Punk thing got me interested again... but it is still not the same.
ReplyDeleteLol. But the Washington professional football team is going to change their name sometime over the next few years. I am certain of that.
ReplyDeleteOr they'll keep a name and change their mascot to a potato.
Yeah, I didn't meant to give Benoit a complete pass or say he had no moral culpability. Obviously he wasn't in the same state of dementia that Gagne is. I just meant that Benoit's brain was closer to that state than anyone his age should have been. I know one report of his autopsy said his brain resembled an 85-year old Alzheimer patient.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't a huge Benoit fan. Didn't watch in 2004 and never cared for him in WCW. He's a great wrestler but the lack of charisma had him way down on the totem pole for me. The reason it took him forever to get the belt is he just wasn't in the league of Austin and the Rock or even Jericho and Angle.
ReplyDeleteI think it's a bit of a cop-out to just say "look at his brain, that wasn't really him." Obviously brain damage played a role - but other wrestlers of that generation have taken similar shots and wrestled similar (if not riskier) styles - and none of them snapped like Benoit did.
ReplyDeleteA couple people (myself included) made a comparison to Verne Gagne (who recently attacked someone in a retirement home leading to his death) - but the comparison only goes so far. Verne is completely gone - he doesn't remember evens that happened 5 minutes before. Benoit obviously had serious mental issues, but he wasn't at that state of dementia.
"and I couldn't recommend using him as an example of in-ring greatness at this point."
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think it's worth looking at Benoit's idol - Dynamite Kid had a series of back issues and now has a paralyzed leg and is in a wheelchair. Benoit's brain turned to scrambled eggs. It's a legacy of wrestling that shouldn't be followed no matter how good they were in the ring.
This isn't the first time the Redskins name was made an issue of. This will blow over.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the doctors that examined Benoit he had the mental dementia exactly of an elderly Alzheimer patient. So he was definitely that gone.
ReplyDeleteThe doctors who examined his brain disagree.
ReplyDeleteAssuming his brain was like that, why hold him morally culpable?
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Evidence, please.
ReplyDeleteShow me.
ReplyDeleteShow me the proof. It's easy to be a prick and just call someone stupid. Show me definitive proof before you do, though.
ReplyDeleteNah, you are insane, no point in validating you further.
ReplyDeleteSure.
ReplyDeleteLet's see:
There was zero signs of forced entry or anyone else coming into the house, no texts or calls by the Benoit family pointed to an intruder.
Benoit had mental health issues, and he had a history of marital trouble with Nancy, so bad, she filed a restraining order.
The texts sent out by Chris Benoit.
Benoit's family has accepted he did it and part of their campaign against the Benoit family is what the WWE lifestyle is like that led to Benoit doing. If there was even a chance Benoit was innocent, wouldn't they be saying something?
Now, let's use Occam's razor:
If Benoit didn't do it, who did? Why did Benoit hang himself on the weight bench? Why were Daniel's injuries consistent with a Crippler Crossface? Why the bibles next to them? Again, zero sign of forced entry or anybody in the house and aside from leaving the house to go to his doctor's Benoit was in the house all weekend.
Benoit called Chavo Guerrero on Saturday afternoon saying he overslept and missed his fight. Was Benoit just chilling in the house after someone killed his wife?
On Sunday, June 24, five text messages were sent to co-workers between 3:51 a.m. and 3:58 a.m. using both Chris Benoit's and Nancy Benoit's cell phones. Four of them were the Benoits' address and the fifth said that the family's dogs were in the enclosed pool area also noting a garage side door was left open.
Did someone else strangle Daniel while Benoit was still in the house, again, just chilling?
Why haven't WWE, the Benoits, the Tuffolonis called for another investigation? There have been numerous books written about the Benoit case, none of which call anything related to the facts of the case into question, or see any conspiracy.
Is that concrete for you?
No, his brain resembled that of someone with Alzheimer's. He was clearly a highly functioning adult, able to travel and work, be with friends and family, etc.
ReplyDeleteWas he?
ReplyDeleteYes, given that he worked steadily, made the shows on time, interacted with people, etc. He was crazy.
ReplyDeleteHe knew what he was doing.
I just showed you the proof, Dustin. Thoughts? Benoit did it. Let's talk about what you don't believe, so we can move forward.
ReplyDeleteEvidence is below.
ReplyDeleteI'm not necessarily defending OJ or suggesting he didn't do it - I think it's as likely he did it as the next guy does - but what's the point of a trial if the only outcomes are guilty, or technically not guilty but we're going to treat you like you were guilty anyway. He was arrested, charged and tried in court and was found not guilty. I don't know how, mind you, but he was - why should the NFL pretend he didn't exist because he was accused of something and found not guilty of doing it?
ReplyDeleteWho knows what was happening the last few days. Not you or me. I can only go off the opinions of the experts that reviewed his brain.
ReplyDeleteBecause he was found guilty in the court of public opinion. It's not fair, but that's how it works.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see an Austrian suplex. For some reason, I think it would be complicated.
ReplyDeleteI'm fine with them not advertising or promoting him but I don't want Nitro's or Raw's edited to remove him. It's more of a grey area, but on personal DVD's I don't want Benoit matches to be off-limits either. If one of, say, Jericho's favorite/best matches is against Benoit I want it included. But that's me, I really have no problem watching his matches and he's one of those guys I occasionally youtube.
ReplyDeleteSomeone explained it below. The killings were very methodical, look at the Bibles next to their bed, given Daniel Xanas, etc.
ReplyDeleteI recall most fans assuming that it was a three-way so HHH could get out of jobbing- most everyone figured Benoit was going to win, but they thought Shawn would be laying down/tapping, so that part at least was a surprise.
ReplyDeleteHe was not that gone. Verne Gagne cannot function. He could not function when he killed the guy. He literally had no idea what happens 5 minutes after an event occurs. Benoit was not in that state at all - otherwise he couldn't have held a job - any job.
ReplyDeleteThe autoposy said his brain showed damage similar to an Alzheimer's patient. It didn't say he had dementia.
Ok you win.
ReplyDeleteEvery single crime that has ever been omitted is an 'alleged' offense until Dustin Harris has had a chance to review the evidence and weigh in.
You got a lot of stuff to catch up on. I'd start with the Kennedy assassinations and 9/11.
I want to weigh in on this Gagne vs Benoit thing. Neurodegenerative diseases (Als, Alzheimers, Huntingtons, mls, dementia, etc) is literally when your brain cells start eroding. Some people lose motor function, others cant talk, some forget who they are, lose memory, suffer from delusions, etc. It just depends on what area of your brain starts to die.
ReplyDeleteDid Benoit and Gagne exhibit the same symptoms, no. Benoit was a physically healthy male (excluding the roids) who seemed to have monents of clarity during his meltdown. Gagne was an old man who seemed to be in constant memory loss. Its not a great comparison, but just because Benoit seemed to be meticulous
It's been an issue for decades. But the number of people arguing against it keeps increasing and it's becoming less and less defensible every year.
ReplyDeleteActually, they don't.
ReplyDeleteThe doctors compared the physical condition of his brain to that of an 80-year old Alzheimer's patient. You can't find a single medical professional who has stated that Benoit's mental faculties were equivalent to that of someone suffering from an advanced state of dementia. There is little evidence to support such a theory, and much that would contradict it.
Gagne was institutionalized in the memory loss / dementia wing of a senior's facility. He was reportedly lucid for mere moments per day. Even immediately after the attack, he had no recollection of it. Sadly, his condition is all too familiar for people with parents or grandparents suffering from dementia.
Benoit was a functioning adult with a high-profile job who methodically killed his wife, child, and himself over a period of several days. During that time, he communicated with co-workers/friends to keep them away/unconcerned. He took specific actions (the pills for his son, the bible, the dogs) that, while horrifying, were extremely rational. These are not the actions of someone suffering from severe dementia.
I have no doubt that the physical condition of Benoit's brain contributed to his crimes. Quite possibly, it was the key factor. As I wrote below, Verne Gagne bears no moral culpability for the death of that poor man in Minnesota. His mind, sadly, was gone long before that day. The same cannot be said for Chris Benoit in the murder of his family.
Here's a link to an ABC News article about the autopsy on Benoit's brain.
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3560015&page=1
Many people have been making reference to this, I don't know if all of them actually know what it says (I'm including myself).
"They found that Benoit's brain showed an advanced form of dementia that
appears on the brain scan as brown clumps or tangles. These brown spots
are actually dead brain cells, killed off as a result of head trauma,
said Bailes.
In Benoit's case, the damage was found in every section of the brain — all four lobes and deep into the brain stem."
"Bailes said that while he can't be certain that the brain damage caused Benoit's actions, he believes it is the leading cause."
I 100% came to terms with it almost immediately after it happened. Benoit was an artist of the highest order, and his ART (the matches) are shining beacons of how awesome pro wrestling can be when in the hands of individuals who possess precision, storytelling ability, realism, and psychology. And lets be real, all that any of us know about any of these guys to any thorough degree is their art. We didn't know ( or deserve to know) Benoit the man. I'm satisfied with the amazing, first class matches that he provided us with. If I found out that Paul McCartney and John Lennon were murderers, rest assured that I'd still put the White Album on my turntable from time to time, and NotASingleFuk would be given.
ReplyDeleteIm not a neurologist but this article doesnt really tell me anything. Without knowing exactly how much of each brain structure had been killed, or what effect steroids had, you cant really make anything from this. Its the standard medical disclosure
ReplyDeleteI'm one of the youngest guys here, and I will tell you straight up.
ReplyDeleteI did not grow up watching wrestling. I didn't have cable growing up and my family were not wrestling fans. I didn't even really know what wrestling was for most of my childhood.
So considering that Benoit died before I started watching, I think I can answer this question.
I don't have that emotional connection to him (good or bad) that a lot of guys have because he was before my time. I can watch his matches and be impressed with what he does and how he does it, but I don't feel a bond with him. So...I can't really hate him either, he's just a guy that did horrible shit. I mean, I don't hate Ted Bundy or the Unibomber either. Awful yes, but I wasn't aware of what they were doing while I was alive, and freaking out about something that happened in the past seems a mite ridiculous.
Yeah, I was going to add something similar. The brain is an incredibly complicated organism. And 'dementia' can refer to a whole series of neurological problems. Just because his brain 'resembled' someone with Alzheimer's it doesn't automatically mean he had the same sort of memory loss and dementia as someone with Alzheimer's.
ReplyDeleteThat is bullshit.
ReplyDeleteCompanies have a responsibility to foster an environment that doesn't lead people to try to kill themselves.
This is very well-written and argued. I would only add (and this is as much for the discussions below as anything) that an autopsy cannot provide any insight into actual mental competency or, perhaps most importantly in this discussion, mens rea. I don't share your certainty that Benoit was criminally insane, but it is certainly within a very reasonable realm of possibility.
ReplyDeleteI think that we can all agree that there was no mens rea in the Gagne case. The Benoit case is far murkier.
He may have killed his family in cold blood...but he could fake a wrestling match. Amazing
ReplyDeleteBenoit also showed how awful and destructive pro wrestling can be
ReplyDeleteThere's a slight difference. Even if McCartney and Lennon had gone on a killing spree, nobody could argue that "Revolver" caused them to be murderers. Benoit's 'art' actually caused his degenerative state.
ReplyDeleteSo what's difficult for when watching his matches is seeing how all those diving headbutts and chair shots and bumps led up to his brain turning into swiss cheese. If he had...I don't know...killed someone in more 'understandable' circumstances (likes stabbing someone in a bar fight), maybe I'd feel different.
Benoit the man beat his wife
ReplyDeleteI hate that law since Hitler is the strongest point of reference anyone can make. But a better comparison is Charles Manson visavis his music and the killings.
ReplyDeleteBut it isn't simply a case of the artist happening to be a murderer. It seems clear that "creating the art" played a significant role in "creating the murderer".
ReplyDeletenot according to some of the sociopaths in this comment section!
ReplyDeleteHitler wasn't very good as an artist.
ReplyDeleteAnd fumes from the paint Hitler used didn't melt his goddamn brain.
Exactly Even with full medical disclosure, itd be tough to really "diagnose" Benoit
ReplyDeleteHow dare people deal with things differently than you.
ReplyDeleteThat's right. It's all subjective. people die everyday. If it's appalling to you that i'm not appalled by what he did, i'm sorry. i'm just not. Just expressing my opinion, and, as always, your mileage may vary.....
ReplyDeleteYes, he did. There's not a person alive who hasn't done one thing or another that is extremely shameful before. I didn't know him personally, but I enjoyed his work. I know I should be wringing my hands in despair every time I hear his name, but that's just not gonna happen...... Life goes on, and his matches remain classics. That's all I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteYea. The link with the brain "autopsy" doesnt tell me much
ReplyDeleteYour opinion is stupid. Who cares that he could choreograph a fake fight? That led to him murdering his family.
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying, he wasn't a great guy who had a bad weekend. He was a bully.
ReplyDeleteLOL Nice.
ReplyDeleteTell you what; after the PPV I'll break out the DVD, figure out what match it was, and then see if it's on youtube.
They have a responsibility to make money.
ReplyDeleteWAKE THE FUCK UP.
Well now my feelings are just plain hurt.
ReplyDeleteIt affected me too, but the people commenting have probably typed the same exact response a dozen times by now. When is enough enough?
ReplyDeleteSounds fine to me.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. What the companies did during the turn of the century was completely acceptable. What they're doing now in Southeast Asia is completely acceptable.
ReplyDeleteFuck OSHA. Fuck child labor laws. Fuck unions. Fuck 40 hour work weeks. Fuck weekends. Fuck medical and dental and retirement. Fuck everybody who died to negligence and greed and short-sighted, selfish polices. It's all about the money.
Give me a break.
Im not saying its right but thats the nature of the beast.
ReplyDeleteThey should have a responsibility but the bottom line is what matters.
Jesus, why don't you marry the guy?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rspwfaq.net/2013/09/qotd-16-id-go-little-later-id-go-little.html
:-P
What about the drugs they took to make revolver?
ReplyDeleteAgreed - "charisma" doesn't just mean mic-skills. Jeff Hardy, RVD, Goldberg, Taker (for several years in the beginning)... all very charismatic wrestlers, none of whom could cut a promo.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why this made me laugh so hysterically, but it did. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteId argue that having moments of being lucidity doesnt exempt someone from being mentally ill or having psychotic episodes. Neurodegenerative diseases present in many different ways.
ReplyDeleteImagine it to Benny Hill music.
ReplyDeletehahaha please......... Who are you to make a judgment about the worth of an opinion I make on some dumbass blog? Who cares that he could choreograph a fake fight? ME. It gave me pleasure to watch his matches, and still does. The real question is, why does it offend you so much that I don't really care about what he did to his family? If more people could learn to just accept that not everyone agrees with their views on matters that they themselves deem as "important" or "issues of right and wrong", the world and (more pertinently) the internet would be a much more civil place. Now please, don't bother me again.
ReplyDeleteYou posted your thoughts in a public forum and thus I have every right to call you out if I find your opinions ill-informed or stupid.
ReplyDeleteI'm not offended at all, I just think you're dumb and need to be called out for having such misguided thoughts. You mentioned earlier how we didn't know or deserve to know Benoit the man, and again, Benoit the man kinda sucked. He was a wife beating alcoholic who bullied those beneath him.
Oh, and he murdered his own kid which is so awful, that it really cancels out any of his skills as someone who did well faking wrestling matches.
>Don't bother me again
Please, get over yourself. Posting your opinions on a "dumbass" blog is probably not for you, especially when you can't handle dissenting opinions.
We all do shameful things. But he killed his wife and son.
ReplyDeleteWell, I finally got the chance to go hunting for it..and it's not on the SNME best of set. Now I'm not sure where I saw it. Best guess is on the Macho Madness or whatever DVD set that I watched online via Netflix. Sorry about that, sir.
ReplyDeleteThat's how things are, that isn't how things should be.
ReplyDeleteall the lulz.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting, Dustin.
ReplyDeleteDustin Harris, I showed you the evidence that you asked.
ReplyDeleteShow me the proof.
Show me definitive proof before you do, though.
but I'm not going to say so definitively without concrete evidence.
Evidence, please.
Show me.
So, do you now believe Benoit did it? Would you like further proof?