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Why doesn't WWE Network = No Brock?

Hey Scott,

Since WWE has killed their PPV market, what's the point of having Brock on the roster? I was always under the impression that they kept him under K to spike the Big 4 but since that's moot, why keep him? He doesn't sell T-Shirts. Does the needle move that much for his appearances? Do people re-up just to see him?

Another fine question, although we're kind of in the Wild West with the Network so it's hard to tell what's actually affecting buyrates at this point.  Indications are that Summerslam did...good?  Maybe?  It's a weird world we live in now where we can't just pull up numbers and argue over them.  That being said, we'll know for sure on October 30, because if that number is below 1,000,000, then they are absolutely flushing millions of dollars down the toilet with Brock's contract and it's a waste of time to keep him around for that price.  But like everyone else, Brock's kind of been flattened out by shitty writing and just becoming another guy lately (especially the DQ finish at Night of Champions) and hopefully this latest six month vacation can make him interesting again when he returns to face...John Cena again.  Well, fuck.   

Comments

  1. The difference isn't in character its in match speed. The turns make him less monotonous moveset wise, and he's always critically acclaimed after a turn.

    That and a "Randy just randomly switches sides constantly" character would be really fun.

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  2. In fairness that was Zana's joke first.

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  3. That's the age we live in with a WWE monopoly. That's why the Undertaker's decade of destruction was actually impressive back when but now a 5th of the roster has hit or is closing in on a decade of employment.


    The WWE has employed Hornswoggle longer than they did the Ultimate Warrior or Sid/Vader/Rick Rude.

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  4. Maybe really fun to you, brother.

    I think Randy needs a few months off. Absence would allow him to freshen up and have fans actually miss him.

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  5. No.. they should show Jeff Jarrett in the shower and have him explain how the last 4 years was all a dream.

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  6. Maybe Randy Orton is not drawing well as a top heel because the company spent the past 7 months doing precisely nothing with him.


    I'm not even an Orton fan, but I don't think even the most charismatic heel workers in history could overcome the absolute nothing he's been saddled with. The top heel who doesn't even put up much of a fuss when his guaranteed title rematch is repeatedly and definitively denied to him. Yeah, that's a guy who strikes fear in the hearts of babyfaces the world over.

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  7. That would be ideal, but unless he gets seriously injured WWE will never let that happen. Just trying to polish the turd we have been handed.

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  8. In fairness to what? No one is taking credit for his joke. It didn't start with him either. Caliber was banging that drum forever inbetween fantasy booking man rape segments.

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  9. RKO! RKO! RKO! THE APEX PREDATOR OF THE WWE!

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  10. Joint effort with Jesse Baker? now THAT is a booking dream team!!

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  11. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:41 AM

    True. Watch Wrestlemania 22, he wasn't exactly being treated as the conquering hero in that title match.

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  12. If his face turn is a result of him being sick of all of that, and he regains his edge, I could definitely see that working.

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  13. In all fairness I may have Caliber confused with Jesse Baler. In all fairness they're both awful. In all fairness.

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  14. and he did an awesome job as champion up to Wrestlemania, including the match itself where he was arguably the glue that held it together.

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  15. Kurt was a f*cking machine in that match. Poor guy, it was the 3rd time he lost a title at WM due to someone else getting beat.

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  16. My feelings exactly. The guy won his first World title a DOZEN years ago, and since then, has only really had one period where he was really over (2009), and one period where he was putting on truly great matches for a notable stretch (2011, though it was only against one opponent: Christian). Everything else has been pretty "meh".

    He's a decent wrestler, I'll give him that, but a guy that's decent-at-best in the ring and awful on the mic should NOT have a nearly-uninterrupted twelve-year run as a top guy. Then you throw in all of his behavioral issues, drug issues, injuries... I just don't get it. What is it about him that Vince finds so appealing? The guy should be at the level of, say, a Ted Dibiase or Mr. Perfect, not a Randy Savage or Ultimate Warrior.


    As has been stated before, people always like him just after he turns, but that always quickly fades, and the only things they ever pop for are the "RKO" and Draping DDT. Give someone else a chance, already.

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  17. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:43 AM

    So the degree to which he's bombed as main eventer over and over isn't a factor in your eyes?

    He's a solid midcarder, but when pushed to the top spot he continuously underwhelms. Christ, it happened at an absurd level JUST LAST YEAR.

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  18. Is there an absolute guarantee that he'll be a main eventer though? He might get a "challenger of the month" title match against Brock, but I see Cena, Reigns, and possibly even Ambrose and a returning Bryan to be ahead of him. He might be just that, an upper mid carder. We shall see.

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  19. Agreed.


    Not to jump on Vince Jordan, who seems to get picked on a lot here, but I don't think you can really say that some has "it" when their music/entrance is met with crickets, and has been for years.

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  20. "much to the major chagrin of everyone on here." Pointless flame-bait. That's his thing.

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  21. HAHAHA... Yes, the loudest face pops of the night for 2 years straight = crickets!!!

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  22. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:47 AM

    This isn't a "WWE can't do anything right" thing that you love to cling to. We want them to do things right, and sometimes they doa nd sometimes (way more often not in recent years) they don't.


    Having Jerry Lawler and Michael Cole and JBL, three guys who have zero cool factor with fans anymore, laugh over something and go wild for it is doing things wrong. The way they had Lawler handle the Fandango thing was absolutely wrong. And if they did the same thing--- Jerry Lawler and Cole laughing about how great those vines were--- they'd be doing it wrong. But obviously there's ways they can use it ina fun way. (See the Ambrose/Rollins ice bucket segment at Summerslam.)

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  23. Ummm... how is that even flame bait? I predict he will be over as a face, and I predict lots of depression about it. I'm not even trying to troll.

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  24. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:48 AM

    HAHAHAHA. Midget MiTB match!

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  25. For what it's worth, they do have crazy chemistry together. We've gotten three completely different matches recently, and they were all great (AWFUL ending to "Night of Champions", aside).

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  26. So Spike is really going to pay TNA their normal rate and allow them to run best of shows for 6 weeks?

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  27. The PPVs mean nothing and the titles mean nothing, so... Someone please remind me why I still need to watch WWE.

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  28. He should wake up in bed next to Chyna.

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  29. Because it's awesome, and Brock can beat him clean again (hopefully), and prove that even though Cena did partially figure him out, it's still not enough, and Brock is still better? That sounds like a good reason to me.

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  30. They aren't anywhere near 1 million subscriptions. They probably have gone backwards in the number.


    It would be interesting to see just how many contracts they could dump and just how cheap of a roster they could roll out on tv. It seems like they have an audience that won't shrink too much more than it already was (but also won't spend any money on the product anyways), why not find out how cheap you can go? It would be easier for them then making the current PPVs must see attractions.

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  31. Might get a little uncomfortable when The Wall or Crash Holly shows up.

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  32. Other than the "Rumble" earlier this year... damn, I'm drawing a blank. I think he was on a "Survivor Series" team last year.

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  33. Sorry for the threadjack. Any one think CBS's fall line up would be better WITHOUT hyping two and a half men's final season? Seems redundant, SMH.

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  34. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:53 AM

    At this point even a 1-2 month superman push and PPV main event spot seems ridiculous for Randy Orton, but if it's that and then back to a midcard spot then fine. But the idea of once again trying to build the company around a guy who can't handle a microphone, has no personality, and time after time has lost crowds in main event matches would be laughable.

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  35. So is 2014 the end of the PG Era and the start of the Network Era?

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  36. Seems like a good portion of people here would be fine with the Orton/Brock match. But yep, as I said, I don't think you need to worry, I doubt he'll be a tippy top face.

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  37. He gets the loudest face pops? Vince I know you haven't seen the raws on ppvs for the last two years but no, he doesn't get big pops, and the fans shit on his matches.

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  38. The rest of that Orton report I read said that they want to make the move because Ambrose isn't drawing well on the house shows he's headlining.

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  39. To me there isn't much of a difference between those, so I'd still say we're in the PG Era.

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  40. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:57 AM

    I think you're taking a lot of guys off the roster over those years to somehow come up with Randy Orton getting the loudest pops on the roster.


    Also, Orton was over in the very protected spot he was in--- guy who slaughtered midcarders, didn't have to cut in-ring promos (you know, those things that main eventers have to do but Randy Orton has zero ability for), and didn't have to fill the role of guy you're paying to see. At that level, Orton could be the midcard superman who didn't get overexposed by mic time or main event angles.


    But anytime Orton gets pushed to main event spots, he gets exposed as someone who's impossible to really give a shit about.

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  41. Great. Same ol' shit at the top again with Cena and Orton. I'm not saying Ambrose is the next Austin, but you have to be patient with some of these new guys you are building.

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  42. They rolled out worldwide and you think the sub base went down?


    Is that even possible? Then again at the previous announcement press conference i thought it was impossible for them to do only 700K so what do i know.

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  43. The great story telling?

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  44. I have a love/hate relationship with Orton. He's not terrible, but his gimmick is pretty stale. I did enjoy the subtle build of him rallying against the Authority, but when he was champion it wasn't good to have Stephanie emasculate him every week.

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  45. It's true! Randy Orton is so over that fans can't help but chant "Randy Savage" and "CM Punk" during his matches!

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  46. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 8:59 AM

    Well to meet ya in the middle, I think it's a waste of Brock to do a Randy Orton match when instead there's so many other far more interesting options (Sheamus, Cesaro, Ambrose, Rollins etc) on the roster. But since I honestly have had a lifetime fill of Cena vs Brock matches, yeah even I'd prefer Orton/Brock if that's my only other choice.

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  47. I obviously meant during his 2010 to mid 2013 face run. And even as a glorified midcarder, fans always popped huge. That is just a fact. He is WAY more over with the casual crowds then he is given credit for, and I predict he'll be way over in this upcoming face run too.

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  48. I agree. Orton would really benefit from 6-8 months off. Just pay him to sit at home and rest up. Tweak his gimmick a bit and he'd be a breath of fresh air. The WWE should really try rotating more guys in and out of the schedule. It would prevent some of the staleness of the product.

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  49. Yes, let's use that one post WM super smark crowd as the only example!! ;)

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  50. Probably would've been a big chant in 1998....

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  51. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:01 AM

    Oh Kurt was fucking great at that time. Absolutely the best guy in WWF.

    In retrospect, wonder why they didn't do Orton/Rey and Kurt/Taker instead of the shitty Henry/Taker stuff. Angle vs Taker at a Mania would have been off the charts.

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  52. Not to mention the fact that he's made to look like an upper mid-carder at best on TV. They're not even at the point where they need to have patience with his build. They need to give him an actual build first.

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  53. I actually agree with you, as Orton has been seen as someone who is a big deal. But in the past year or two (probably coinciding with the rise of Bryan and Punk), he's hit this purgatory where he's basically Sheamus...he's just there.

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  54. Well for one the international subscribers are irrelevant to the amount they need to replace the American ppv market. They need 1.4 to 1.5 million DOMESTIC subs. That's according to the hedge fund guys watching their stock.


    There also could be an issue where many international subscribers have already gotten the network and are counted in the sub base already. Tons of people on here us a software program that allows them to access the US network.


    There is independent market research that the one fund did they talked about on CNBC that said not only are the new subs shockingly low but the network is getting very negative feedback from the people who have it.


    I was talking about this yesterday and I think it kind of looks like an Over The Top format might be the wrong vehicle to deliver professional wrestling. And the problem is thats all the WWE has to offer.

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  55. Dude, it happens more than that RAW. And how the fuck would you know? You don't watch the shows!

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  56. Yeah, they had their 5 star match just the month before, right? That would have worked.

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  57. Not even sure if that would work. People seemed to get sick of Sheamus about 3 minutes after his 8 month absence. I think Orton will be unconditionally hated by the IWC for the rest of his life, basically.

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  58. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:04 AM

    What, the guy who hasn't won a match on Raw since The Shield broke up isn't a mega draw already? I'm shocked.

    And for those who'd say "wins and losses don't matter", then why is the guy that WWE REALLY wants as a main eventer get his push by winning matches clean on every single TV show?

    Because deep down, WWE knows that is how you get someone over, especially with "mainstream" fans. You make them look like winners.

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  59. I did from 2010 to 2012 when it was 2 hour shows, and Orton got super face pops week in and week out, yes.

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  60. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:06 AM

    The fact that Sheamus came back and did the EXACT SAME SHIT doesn't help though. He came back as the same guy with the same look, mannerisms, moveset, motivations, and shitty jokes.

    I think a revamped Sheamus could absolutely get over with everyone again, but there's just by zero effort in that regard.

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  61. If Ambrose doesn't win in the Cell, it'll really hurt his growth because that's what his whole feud has been leading to. Sometimes you gotta pay it off and Rollins will be fine with a loss.

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  62. It's the Network era. The PG era died with PPV's.

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  63. What's funny is the only guys Ambrose headlines against are Orton and Kane. Did they ever stop and think that these two are also contributing to the lack of draw? Also, not to blame Reigns, but Ambrose is his replacement on these shows and on short notice.

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  64. Yep, I predict it will be the main event, and I predict an Ambrose win. I'll agree that anything else would be very counter productive.

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  65. None of that makes any sense. As mentioned innumerable times before the WWE made just over $80 Million in PPV revenue last year worldwide. They'll make around a 3rd of that this year.


    So the Network simply needs to make up the difference. 1.5 Million Domestic Subs = 180 Million Dollars a year. If the company only gets half that they still come out ahead and that's with Zero PPV revenue coming in.

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  66. Who are you to doubt El Dan URRR I mean Kane?

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  67. A lot can change in wrestling in 2-4 years.

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  68. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:07 AM

    They did, you're right! Damn. Switch Henry and Kurt in those spots and it woulda been pretty sweet. Rey would have gotten a more unified babyface reaction against Henry and Orton, and Taker/Kurt at a Mania in Chicago would have given people fucking heart attacks.

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  69. Does WWE release their numbers as far as Hulu viewers go?

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  70. But the Network is still PG!

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  71. The $9.99 era!!!

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  72. Plus he was one of the final 3 in the "None of you guys are Daniel Bryan" Rumble. So that didn't help either.

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  73. If you like Wrestling, you really don't need to.

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  74. Kane will sell out any arena in North America! South America too if we put his mask back on!

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  75. Anyway, agree to disagree. I think Orton will be pretty over as a face.

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  76. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:13 AM

    Yeah, they really can't tease this out any longer. Rollins has already beaten Ambrose a bunch of times (Money in the Bank ladder match, Summerslam, Raw the next night). There's no excuse or interference that would make Ambrose not seem like a loser if he comes up short again on Sunday.

    Which, hey, maybe the plan is to just put Rollins over and have him strong for a returning Roman Reigns or the Randy Orton feud. Could absolutely see either of those as their priority, with them figuring Ambrose could slide into a role as midcard comedy guy.

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  77. the rock lost at wm the last time we saw him and he's still a bigger draw than anyone else in wwe. wins and losses don't matter

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  78. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:14 AM

    Hey, he beat Kane by DQ once! So obviously the singles push is ON.

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  79. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:17 AM

    Yeah what an awful spot to bring him back in.

    Those I guess going into that show, the plan was HHH/Punk, Batista/Orton, and Bryan/Sheamus, and then that crowd and Punk leaving and the crowds through

    on Raw the next month pretty much forced their hands there. So in the context of their original plan, I guess bringing Sheamus back in that spot makes sense to start his heel turn.


    In fact, I'd bet that within the context of their original plan, it woulda been Sheamus who did something to cost Bryan the EC match.


    So yeah, in retrospect NOT getting the heel turn really fucked Sheamus.

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  80. I don't think so. He hasn't had a huge character change, but he's pretty different than he was as a heel 5 years ago. 5 years ago he was the guy who never showed emotion except to make Ambrose-esque "psychotic" faces. His heel character for the past year is way more emotional, talking faster and not being nearly as monotonous, playing up to the crowd during his matches, showing humour etc. It's not a huge change, but you wouldn't have seen him act like that during his last run.

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  81. The Bellas call each other bitches a lot now. That's edgy, right?

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  82. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:21 AM

    If they're gonna go through with this, then they absolutely need to do Orton/Brock at Survivor Series. It's in St. Louis, so a freshly turned Orton in his home town facing wrestling's #1 monster--- there'll never be a more perfect situation to get Orton the reaction they want.

    But if they wait a few months and let babyface Orton start to feel old hat (which 8-12 weeks of Orton in-ring promos will do) and do the match in some random city, he'll be wayyyyyy less over. So yeah, they should just pull the trigger Sunday.
    Orton beats Cena, and then fights off Kane to let Ambrose win against Rollins, and do Orton/Brock 4 weeks later in ST. Louis.

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  83. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 23, 2014 at 9:22 AM

    Proud thread jack: After four arduous months, I've dropped 37 pounds, which puts me under the magical 200-lb barrier for the first time since I was a sophomore....in high school. Still want to lose another 25 lbs but this is the first true goal I've hit so that's cool.

    THANKS, MEGA SHAKE!

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  84. No it won't. He's been an official main eventer since 2007. Before that they dropped him down the card after his face run bombed. He still got good feuds with credible opponents ('Taker, Angle, DX when he was teaming with Edge) but he definitely wasn't a real main eventer.

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  85. They aren't gonna be anywhere close to 1m next week. I'd say they might have 800k.

    I'll be shorting the stock anyway

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  86. Blah blah blah, Avengers 2 looks sick tits, massive tits, delicious massive tits


    *proceeds to actually read thread*

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  87. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:24 AM

    BAHAHAHA, wow, amazing example there buddy. Yes compare one of the most over stars of all-time who has 20 years of build behind him and compare that to a guy who's been on TV less than 2 years and is just in the midst of his first singles and babyface push. Holy crap that's a bad one.

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  88. What worldwide rollout? Their biggest market outside of the Americas is the UK. We were supposed to get it at the start of this month. Instead we are still waiting.

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  89. How did you do it?

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  90. I hate the label "PG Era" it should really be "The Investor Era" it explains the real problems much better.

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  91. Whatever you might think of the guy, as far as actual live crowd reactions go, he was indeed one of the most over guys on the roster, generally getting pops as big as those of Cena and Punk despite having uninspired feuds with midcarders on SD.

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  92. That's not a tremendously interesting story considering we've JUST done this after Summerslam. I just find it hard to get excited about the next few months of WWE when it's literally going to be the exact same thing we've been watching since July.

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  93. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:25 AM

    Congrats!

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  94. Here's a spoiler - Orton isn't going to draw well as a face either.

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  95. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 23, 2014 at 9:25 AM

    Botchamania presents Alice in WonderingWhyTheFuckIWatchRaw

    http://youtu.be/eEUxjNyYW3w

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  96. SO what you're saying is expect Cena standing tall to close out the show.

    *runs to Vegas*

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  97. Plus he's one of the biggest movie stars in the world!

    Jesus Christ...

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  98. That was apparently all in my imagination, "nobody" likes Orton and we heard crickets apparently! and he totally does chin locks!!

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  99. Seriously, Rock could go out there and take a pin from say......Kevin Federline and still be the most over guy ever, no one would even blink we'd all be talking about the promo the next morning.

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  100. Conveniently forgetting his main run in the company that lee him to be a draw now?

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  101. Just because it's a rematch doesn't mean it's the same thing. The story is different, and this would likely be the final encounter. I would love to see a 4th match.

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  102. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:29 AM

    Admitting Orton got big reactions is fine, but he got nothing close to Punk or Cena. That absolutely wasn't true.

    And like I said, he did well in an underexposed less important role, where he didn't have to carry main event angles, cut long promos, or wrestle as THE main eventer. Guys like Taker, Edge, Punk, Cena, and hell even SHEAMUS were always above him filling those spots. But whenever Orton does get the company built around him, fans have rejected it.

    I'm not saying Orton can't be a useful babyface, but giving him another superman main eventer push and having Raws start off with Orton babyface promos would be a disaster.

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  103. He's got a great look, he's a third-generation wrestler, he's been really over with live crowds for a few years now (though historically he's failed as a draw), he wrestles well and he's solid on the mic as a heel. Several reasons right there, but that still doesn't explain why Vince seems to love the guy quite so much. I think if it were up to him, Orton, rather than Cena (and for a while Batista) would have been the face of the company for the past decade.

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  104. Yes, it absolutely is true. Watch just about any episode of RAW (since SD has tweaked audience reactions) from like 2010 to 2012 and his pops were right up there with Cena and later Punk after the pipebomb.

    Also, I agree with the rest of your comment other than the huge pops thing.

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  105. I remember a guy yelling in the wind about Brock not being worth the price months and months ago. The same guy who did and still doesn't see any value in having a super-temporary guy get the biggest nod in modern history by pinning Taker.


    Ah well, what's that saying, foresight is 20/20?


    =P

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  106. I think the lack of a solid midcard is what makes Orton so uninteresting. He's all over the place, so it's not as if he sucks (completely) - he's woefully overexposed. I mean, look at how he was being CHEERED over Prison Shower Reigns (because he looks like the kind of guy who would get you in the shower). Orton has his fans, but he's getting a similar (if not slightly distorted) reaction like Cena is.

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  107. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 23, 2014 at 9:36 AM

    The Hulkbuster suit made me come faster than the first time I jacked it

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  108. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM

    True, but I think a huge problem for WWE right now is that it's just impossible to build main event storylines anymore with John Cena as the hero protagonist. He's been around forever, accomplished everything 1000 times over, and even if it's something he hasn't accomplished (and he actually already HAS BEATEN BROCK) it's impossible to get fans to feel psyched about seeing whatever that is. This isn't the era of John Cena getting mixed reactions in 2-3 smark cities and 90% positive reactions elsewhere. We're officially in an era in which John Cena gets more negative than positive live reactions in every city on TV, every week.

    And I'm not saying that means "Oh you gotta turn Cena heel!" because whatever, Make a Wish and such. But since the very first Rock feud it's just become beyond the point where you can galvanize the fanbase around a "John Cena's quest" story. He still works as the star in other people's stories (Daniel Bryan last year, hell even Lesnar's story this past Summerslam). But this whole "Can John cena overcome Brock lesnar?" shit is a majorly tough sell in 2014/15.

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  109. I think the main reason Reigns got some boos at SummerSlam and a couple of RAWs around that period is because people read the dirtsheets and wanted to nip his planned Superman push in the bud before it got the chance to take off. Even if you find the guy boring, he's way too inoffensive as a performer to organically turn on.

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  110. Jesus, I realize that a lot of people find Orton boring, but there's a lot of revisionism (mainly dealing with his over-ness with live crowds) going on in this thread. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize/mock him, so why start making stuff up?

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  111. Meltzer doesn't have any sources in TNA.

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  112. Right? And we thought the blue suit from Iron Man 3 was gonna be the Hulk Buster suit, we were so innocent...

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  113. Because they have tons if great programs left for Brock. He can take on Orton, Cena, big show and if they feel like being wild maybe even Kane. If that doesn't get you pumped then nothing will.

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  114. davidbonzaisaldanamontgomeryOctober 23, 2014 at 9:40 AM

    75% diet and 25% upping the exercise. I was already covering about five miles on foot a day due to my walking commute and random waking around, so a lot of it was simply not eating like shit, cutting out all the junk and finding low-fat to non-fat alternatives for everything I eat (smoked turkey links instead of beef hot dogs, for example). That alone slimmed me down real quick, as well as staying disciplined on it and only saving cheat days for special occasions.

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  115. AverageJoeEverymanOctober 23, 2014 at 9:41 AM

    he really did, also surviving that awful table spot that looked like it killed him.

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  116. Sorry, but Brock beating Taker was fucking awesome and one of the most unexpected moments in wrestling history. Always great when something completely unexpected like that happens in a company where we think we always know what's coming next

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  117. They must hear voices in their heads.

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  118. You have the pro wrestling disease ... you watch 1000 hours of shit in hopes of 1 moment of awesomeness

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  119. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:42 AM

    Summerslam this year did 150k buys with at least 700k people ALREADY subscribed to the Network and therefore getting the show already.


    That was Lesnar's first match after breaking the Streak, and that alone is a huge success.

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  120. Hmm. Not sure about that, he was in world title matches at NYR 2005 and Rumble 2005, and feuded with the Undertaker at 3 PPV's that year, one being the main event at Armageddon, winning two of the three matches. He was the sole survivor in the SSeries match at that years PPV.

    In 2006, he was in a Mania world title match, feuded with Kurt Angle and Hulk Hogan, and ended the year feuding with Triple-H and Shawn Michaels. This is all pretty much top-tier stuff.

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  121. Congrats, but as a lifelong slim guy, I've always wondered how people manage to get so fat in the first place.

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  122. Winner to take on the Golden Knights I presume #SunshineStateFootball

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  123. Ambrose could be the new Santino Marella!

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  124. Needs more big show and kane

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  125. MaffewOfBotchamaniaOctober 23, 2014 at 9:50 AM

    The more people shit on Brock and his part-time/mega-contract, the more I feel like a confused old man.

    His matches are awesome, he's brought prestige to the Title by defending it less and not just having a random World Title shot on Raw with no build and his interviews are great.

    I don't get it.

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  126. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:50 AM

    I mentioned this before, but if Mania 31 is gonna be Brock's last match with WWE then I think they should aim to beat Brock twice before he's done.

    Roman goes over Brock at the Rumble to win the title, which would get an awesome reaction cause A) Who the fuck wouldn't be psyched to see that match at a Rumble PPV, and B) It doesn't sabotage Ambrose/Bryan for the Philly crowd.

    Then Cena wins the Rumble (Philly shits on that but it's Cena, so no damage done) and it's Roman vs Cena at Mania. Brock is all pissed after losing the title so to appease him The Authority feeds him an underdog opponent at Mania. Bryan if he's healthy, Ambrose if Bryan's not.

    Mania 31:
    Roman vs Cena for the title
    Brock vs Daniel Bryan (or Ambrose)
    Ambrose vs HHH
    Rollins vs Orton

    Then maybe Sting vs Bray, Rusev vs whoever (Angle? jeff Hardy? Sheamus?), and the battle royal.

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  127. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:51 AM

    Yeah agreed. Of all WWE's problems, having Brock Lesnar be mega over is the least of them.

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  128. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:52 AM

    Speaking of, did Cena ever get a rematch against Federline? The one obstacle he could not overcome!

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  129. THANK YOU!!!

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  130. It's true, like Jericho's winning streak against Goldberg, Cena never got his heat back.


    I swear I still wish Federline would come back, I mean that guy must be bored not being even a little bit famous now, at least he'd be on TV every week, that dude more than any other celebrity guest totally got it, he was awesome.

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  131. But now we bitch about when we will get Primetime on the network. Not about the product being PG.

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  132. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:56 AM

    Dude, at this point there's no TNA to have sources in. He also currently doesn't have an USWA sources either.

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  133. I love how cena takes pile driver bumps.

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  134. Every PPV since the Network started has been over 100k buys, though. That just shows WWE underestimated how technologically retarded their 'universe' is.

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  135. ...now I'm depressed. I'm going to cheer myself up by weighing Vader in Hornswoggles as a unit of measurement.

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  136. I'm gonna guess you're watching the WM23 main event?

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  137. Worst_in_the_WorldOctober 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM

    Nope, not even close. That was almost 3x what they've done on the other network PPVs, aside from of course Wrestlemania itself.

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  138. I love Cena's bumping in general. He's like the only guy who makes Kane's shitty chokeslam look good these days.

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  139. "Roman goes over Brock at the Rumble to win the title, which would get an awesome reaction cause A) Who the fuck wouldn't be psyched to see that match at a Rumble PPV"



    Is that a joke?

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  140. I was always super skinny until I left my parents home, then I somehow managed to put on about 3 stone in a year just from eating takeaway all the time, and not exercising at all. Then i got depressed about it, ate more, got demotivated, gained even more weight. I lost it all again, but it can easily just happen if you get into a bad mental place. I hit the treadmill every day and work out as often as I can, because I know that it could aaaaall happen again pretty easily. It was easier for me to lose than others because I was *meant* to be skinny, there was nothing genetic about me being overweight, I'd just piled on loads of excess.

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  141. Yeah I've been working through the show the last few days. Shawn just kicked out out of the sweet fu cena countered his flying forearm into. I'm not breaking any new ground here but this match is excellent.

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  142. He was involved in the world title scene from time-to-time, but the same has been true of say, Ziggler in the past, and I've never thought of Ziggler as a main eventer.

    Now obviously Orton was better-booked than a guy like Ziggler what with his legend feuds and all, but he still wasn't a real main-eventer. I can't imagine a real main eventer like Cena or Batista from 2005-2007 representing Booker T in a "Best of 7" US title feud with Benoit like Orton did. He was a high-profile upper-midcarder until 2007.

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  143. Umm, Extreme Rules 2014 (no Brock) did 107,000 buys.

    http://www.cagesideseats.com/wwe/2014/6/25/5843098/wwe-extreme-rules-draws-107000-buys-on-pay-per-view

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  144. For the title match at a Rumble, that's a huge match. if they're gonna go ahead with pushing Roman, then that's a much better spot to do it then at Mania itself. The Rumble live crowd would be way less apt to turn on Roman if he's in that match than the Rumble, because he wouldn't be competing against Bryan or Ambrose.


    Plus looking ahead, Roman/Cena is a much better Mania match for Roman cause the Mania crowd would cheer fucking George Zimmerman against John cena.

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  145. I guess I'm lucky. I've had bouts of depression since I was a teen, but that always lessened my hunger rather than decreasing it.

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  146. Personally, I think the jury's still out on whether Brock getting the nod to beat Taker was good or not. To me, it all depends on context and follow-up.

    At the time it happened, I hated it for two big reasons: 1) I felt like they left a HUGE opportunity on the table by not doing Cena/Taker at WM first, and 2) Brock was still being booked really poorly (50/50 booking, needing a million chair-shots to beat friggin' Big Show, etc.) and I was expecting that to continue.

    However, he then went on to absolutely decimate Cena in a way that we had never seen before, and it seemed like we were going to get a nice combination of Brock going on a super-dominant tear coupled with a champion that - due to his part-time status - wasn't going to be overexposed while giving us fresh match-ups. I was and am 100% on-board with Brock only appearing on PPV to murder a different challenger every month. Brock/Orton, Brock/Sheamus, *maybe* even Brock/Cesaro, a 3-/4-way match, stuff like that.

    Since then, though... it hasn't happened that way. His first title-defense was marred by the ridiculous "sports-entertainment finish" that didn't lead anywhere (for him), and it looks like he may have only one or two more defenses, against the same opponent as usual, before the seemingly-foregone conclusion of dropping the title at WM to a guy that's not yet ready for that spot.

    If they were trying to build Brock as a truly unstoppable, superhuman monster, then I'm fine with Brock beating Taker, but at this point, it looks like we're back to the same lame booking for him. They had only one chance to get the follow-up right, and they're blowing it.

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  147. Same here, I've actually gained 35 pounds in the last year and a half and am super excited about it.

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  148. But that's including 67k international, a number that went down over the summer as the Network got rolled out internationally (hence the subscriber number growing from 667k to over 700k before Summerslam came around.)

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  149. He had a lot of fun/good matches with a variety of opponents on SD in 2011. Sheamus, Henry, Ziggler, etc. Hell, I think Kane's last good singles match was against Orton during that period. He also had a surprisingly fun match with Otunga of all people on the Christmas episode of SD that year.

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  150. Is that 80M take home, or gross?


    I havent been keeping up tbh.

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  151. If that 80M is net gain, His math doesn't look that far off.

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  152. Well, I'll admit I'm in the anti-Roman camp, need to see a lot more from him before he's anywhere near on the level of facing Brock. It's just not believable to me he could even step in the same ring as him, let alone beat him and at Mania of all places

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  153. Now, now....don't let facts get in the way!

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  154. Smarks will get mad over losing their virginity... this is nothing.

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  155. I started going to the gym recently, and managed to gain 10 lbs. in two months beforehand.

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  156. I rank my virginity losing at -***3/4

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  157. The handsome/muscular date rapist look ...

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  158. I would certainly hope Orton is over enough by now, he's had twelve years to try. It's the same thing as HHH, where after years and years and beating everyone in sight, to be considered "great".

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  159. I like Brock, I'd rather him be around than not, although I think they could do a better job of promoting him when he's not there - like announcing his next title defense a couple of months in advance and showing him training for it, etc.


    But it's an interesting point - if his huge contract was off-set by the pay per view buys he generated, and pay per view isn't really a thing anymore....maybe the number of non-Network buys are still high enough to justify his deal?

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  160. The thing though is fans have to stop acting like the decision to have Brock beat Taker is gonna rob us of Taker/Cena or Taker/Sting streak matches. Those were never gonna happen regardless of who won at Mania 30, because Undertaker was DONE. He's not wrestling anymore. They put Brock over BECAUSE Taker will not be defending the Streak again.

    So the only thing that the Brock win robbed us of is what, a 22-0 DVD? Who gives a fuck. Undertaker's streak was amazing and it STILL HAPPENED. It's like the whole corny "the Star Wars prequels were so bad it robbed me of my childhood!" type reactions. Ugggh no it didn't you (not YOU, the guy I'm replying to) fucking moron. The Streak happened. brock winning doesn't negate the first 21 years.


    All it did was build up what has been one of the only interesting things about WWE the last 6 months, which is Brock Lesnar. The Summerslam match was awesome and fascinating. Brock's next few matches will probably be the only bright spots in pro wrestling the next year. I'd gladly take that over a yearly video package putting over how Undertaker retired undefeated.

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  161. And it's lead us to such great stuff like...........Paul Heyman promo's!


    They had to have Brock win that to get back the magic that they spent two years burning. Think about that, they had to sacrifice a 25 year storyline payoff to get back where they started.


    The WWE said itself that he wasn't worth his own appearance fee, hence no showing HitC despite having the only HitC worthy storyline they've had in half a decade.

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  162. After a couple of rough months in the summer of '99, HHH was a legitimately successful main eventer for close to a decade. Orton's never known that kind of success.

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  163. Yeah, as usual the follow-up was disappointing and it doesn't even seem like there was a long-term plan after that, BUT the moment itself was great and personally, every time the WWE can shock me like that I'm happy

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  164. 1) What interviews?
    2) What prestige exactly?
    3) How is him not being somewhere that I can pay to see him making them money?

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  165. He looks like a frat boy who'd drug a girl's drink & then gag her with a Tap Out shirt.

    "Uh-oh, these tribal tattoos are starting to look a little dated. Better fill the remaining area with skulls."

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  166. Main Eventer, yes, top guy, no.

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  167. You aren't considering the start up costs for the Network.

    Plus, the 1M+ number (as you said, assuming 0 PPV) came from WWE itself:

    "On the call Barrios went through a number of scenarios for the network
    saying that break-even would occur at somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4
    million subscribers."

    http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/05/20/when-will-the-wwe-network-break-even.aspx

    It's possible that's changed with the "$25M" in cuts over the next two years mentioned in a recent conference call, and I'm not sure how Canada fits in. I also don't believe WWE gets all "9.99" per sub (especially for those who signed up via Apple), so I don't think the $180M in your 1.5M example is accurate.

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  168. I think they are slightly over 1 million. Which is really bad considering how few people in the world cares.


    But none of us will know until the info is released.

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  169. You know what, even if it WERE only Paul heyman's promos, the fact that those have been pretty much the only entertaining aspects of WWE's main event scene since Mania would have made it worth it, yes.

    Should WWE fill TV time by showing video packages on the retired, undefeated Undertaker?

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  170. Yeah agreed the follow-up wasn't great, but as I said below the moment itself was memorable and out of the blue. Who would even remember if UT had gone over? No one would be talking about it the next day


    Did they really say he wasn't worth his appearance fee?

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  171. This. It's nearly November, which puts the Rumble about a month and a half away. Reigns has yet to win a "big" match cleanly besides Orton. People are concerned WM31 is too soon and you want to put the belt on the guy in January?

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  172. "He's what a WWE superstar looks like built from the ground up!"

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  173. First with HIAC coming up, it's apropos to point out Foley got over in a match he lost. And he lost more often than he won and is still considered a wrestling god. Second; Rock jobbed to HHH all the time back in the day and he still got over -- the idea that Hunter holds people down is a myth. Finally, GILLBERG never won but he was as over as any other mid carder at the time. Same deal for Barry Horowitz for a lot of folks. And Santino, Jericho. etc.

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  174. You're going to cause some sort of nuclear disaster trying to split hairs that thinly.

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  175. I just wish they would let Orton be the obnoxious epic dickbag we all know he is and let him run with that. Face, heel whatever I bet it would get over.

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  176. Okay? Who said anything about being the top guy?

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  177. I was not aware that Brock was "just another guy" now. Cause ya know, he received three AA's, and was put in the STF twice, THEN got hit by the Curb Stomp, and he just shrugged it off and gave Rollins the F5, and finished the show standing tall, still champ.

    What a chump!!!

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  178. Ambrose v Orton on top, clearly Ambrose is the problem.

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  179. He's been showing flashes of it for the past year, and I for one have really enjoyed it.

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  180. Probably, but that wasn't the point I was going for. My point of is that if you push a guy long enough, put him over enough people, for years, eventually people will see him as a big star. Most guys don't get that chance.

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  181. I totally agree btw that it was an awesome moment, the look on that crowds face is legend for sure.


    And yeah, it was in one of Bayless's updates, they didn't feel they were getting the return the needed to make it worth their while.


    The real problem with this Network is these assholes are acting like the ONLY time people can subscribe is every six months, give us something worth paying for in October and get some people on a different billing cycle, so foolish.

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  182. The build to Summerslam was fantastic, the match was entertaining and heated as hell, and the show did really strong business. But yes, wrestling would have been better off if that stuff was non existant and instead air time was filled talking about the retired Undertaker's undefeated streak.

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  183. I like Orton. I can see why 10 years after his first main event push people are tired of looking at him, but he really only came into his own during his 2007 title reign, and the guy was pretty hot as a heel when he started to develop the crazy character in 2008/2009, and was really over once he turned face with that character. He just didn't really do anything memorable aside from the Christian feud and a couple of great Smackdown matches.


    But he's pretty solid in the ring and has had no problem jobbing. He put Henry over clean, twice I think. Turning him back into the cowardly heel didn't do him any favours but he's a few RKO's to the right people away from being a popular face again. I see some appeal to a Brock/Orton match. At the very least it's not Brock/Cena, again, where Brock has to retain the title and Cena can't just lose clean again.

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  184. Not everything on it.

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  185. But on the bright side, you still had sex.


    You didn't give it the negative full monty.


    Thats something amirite?

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  186. Am I giving up Bella's for those video packages?

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  187. Funny you mention Triple H, the guy who crushed Orton's initial face push AND ended his best run as a heel!

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  188. I would rather watch a Cena match any day of the week than Orton. The difference between being entertained, and slowly falling asleep.

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  189. Women with daddy issues love him.

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  190. Who, besides Cena (which I imagine they'd rather save), is there "big" to beat pre-Brock? The only other name I can think of is HHH, a part-timer who hasn't won a match since (maybe) Wrestlemania XXIX.

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